Zionism argument

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  • #604704

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Let’s summarize it here:

    Some posters: Israel is great!

    Other posters: Israel is terrible!

    Posters who have changed their minds because of arguments made here by others: ???

    Can we close all the other threads now?

    #894173

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Israel is great. And Israel is terrible.

    Israel is, fortunately, only getting greater.

    Israel is, unfortunately, only getting more terrible…

    #894174

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    yenne2- how is israel-only getting more terrible ?please elucidate….

    #894175

    squeak
    Participant

    G-d is great!

    G-d is terrible!

    G-d is not getting greater.

    G-d is not getting any more terrible.

    Therefore, Israel is catching up to G-d.

    #894176

    on the ball
    Participant

    Squeak: The second line in your post is blasphemy.

    Mods?

    #894177

    RebRY
    Member

    First of all is we must realize that there is a difference between Eretz Yisruel and Medinas Yisruel so when you hear someone say “Israel is terrible” They mean the “Zionist State of Israel” not “the Holy Land of Israel” If you want to know why it is so terrible visit JewsagainstZionism.com they explain it very nicely.

    #894178

    Toi
    Participant

    terrible doesnt mean bad.

    #894179

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    JewsagainstZionism.com ? Are they also the ones who give hand to our enemies the Palestinians and the Iranians? And therefore are actually under the heading of “rodef’

    #894180

    bubka
    Participant

    I just went to that site and they do no such thing. It only has pure truths. Everyone should check it out.

    #894181

    squeak
    Participant

    As Toi said. HaK-L hagadol v’hanorah

    But the last line is blasphemy. So did you not get that far?

    #894182

    Feif Un
    Participant

    bubka: Really? On their site, it says this:

    “IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER’S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION.”

    That is not a pure truth. In fact, it’s not even an impure truth. It’s an outright lie. I found that within 30 seconds. If I actually took the time to go through the drivel on that site, I’d probably find dozens more.

    #894183

    Sam2
    Participant

    I read through that entire website. There were no lies that I saw, though some of the source material was definitely questionable (and there may have been some exaggerations that give false implications). It makes most of the legitimate arguments against Zionism that exist, and it does not read as if it’s based on hatred but rather on an honest extreme anti-Zionist stance.

    The problem is that it’s fighting an argument that’s already over. There are no pre-WWII Zionists anymore. The question now is whether one supports the current Medinah and how much. So whoever was right about the pre-WWII argument (and denying that major Torah figures supported the foundation of the Medinah is just denying reality), it doesn’t matter. It’s over. All using the term “Zionist” does nowadays is breed hatred about an argument that’s not at all relevant. It’s a meaningless term because the Nationalism-based movement of the 1880s-1940s is over. That’s not what someone who refers to themselves as a “Zionist” today means. So why foist a hate-filled term on someone when the pejorative meaning of the term doesn’t apply to them? (Ironically, what is done in referring to “Zionists” is the same thing that I’ve seen people here claim that anti-Chareidim do to Chareidim.)

    #894184

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    sam2-Thanks for your comments. Although personally I am a Zionist (I can hear the teeth grinding of health and HaKatan), I have consistently argued in many columns here that the old arguments are totally irrelevant. The medinah is here to stay and it is the duty of all Jews-certainly the frum ones- to make it better.

    #894185

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Rabbi of Berlin – yenne2- how is israel-only getting more terrible ?please elucidate….

    — You’re right. I forgot that the country that is supposed to personalize Torah is forcing it’s lomdim to join the army.

    — You’re right. I forgot that the country that is supposed to represent Jews worldwide is beginning to become one of the most anti-religious places Jews live…

    — You’re right. I forgot that the country symbolizing everything every Yid stands for is now forcing it’s soldiers — hence [as stated] it’s kollel yungerlaat and yeshiva bochurim — to listen to women’s singing…

    And then people wonder why ‘Israel is only getting more terrible…’

    #894186

    simcha613
    Participant

    Correct me if I’m wrong but I think this is an accurate summary of the arguements:

    Argument 1 for Zionism- Having a Jewish run government in Eretz Yisroel is the beginning of the final geulah.

    Argument 2 for Zionism- Since the founding of the medinah, there is been more Jews and Torah in Eretz Yisroel since around the destruction of the 2nd Beis Mikdash and we owe the medinah our hakaras hatov and support.

    Argument 1 against Zionism- It is assur to have a Jewish run government in Eretz Yisroel until Mashiach comes. We are in golus and it is not our place to decide when it ends.

    Argument 2 against Zionsim- Most of the government is not religious and some of the government is even anti religious. The government of Israel has an agenda to create a secular state in Israel and is prejudiced against Charedim and Frum Jews. We should not support such a government.

    #894187

    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    Did hashgacha pratis end in 1948? If the State of Israel exists, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei – and the Nissim that have taken place, firstly for it to even have been established, and secondly to have continued to survive and thrive, should teach us all something. As Ma’aminim, we believe that HKB”H rules over all – and it is clearly His will that Israel exist.

    That is not to say that there is not significant room for improvement – we all MUST strive to improve the situation in E”Y. However, the way to do that is to engage with the state and general population – not to close ones self off from the greater Israeli society. After all, thevast majority of Israeli society is just as Jewish as the frummest Chareidi – and we have a Chiyuv to show them that “deracheha darkei noam”. Yes, there is room for improvement – but rather than just standing there and yelling “gevaldt” about how bad things are, we should all go out and do what we can to improve it.

    I put my money where my mouth is by moving to Israel (with a family) despite the difficulties – after 120 years, I want to be able to say that yes, I did do something other than sit on my rear to improve Artzeinu HaKedosha.

    an Israeli Yid

    #894188

    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“Although personally I am a Zionist (I can hear the teeth grinding of health and HaKatan)”

    This line shows you have no clue to even beginning to understand me and my views.

    You think that you’re a Zionist gets me emotionally upset? Wrong.

    I just pity you and the other die-hard Tzionists. I pity Frey people who aren’t Frum, but it isn’t the same pity I have for the likes of you. A guy like PM Bibi, who doesn’t know any better, so anything he does towards Judaism is a plus. While the Frum Zionists should know better! If the guy is a BT and that’s why he/she is a zionist, it’s probably not their fault, but of the one’s who taught them religion.

    #894189

    vochindik
    Member

    Did hashgacha pratis end in 1948? If the State of Israel exists, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei

    Did hashgacha pratis end in 70 CE? If the Eretz Yisroel was destroyed, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei.

    Did hashgacha pratis end in 1939? If the holocaust happened, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei.

    #894190

    RebRY
    Member

    ROB they are not the ones who shook hands with the Iranian president that was Neturei Karta NKUSA.og Jews against zionism is Netruna which is based in Williamsburg and is Satmar not Neturei Karta.

    #894191

    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    Vochindik – you are absolutely correct; the two tragedies you mention are clearly the Retzon HaBorei. We have Chazal who give us a reason why HKB”H allowed the Beis HaMikdash to be destroyed, and are still doing our soul searching re: the Churban that took place in Europe. My point is that to dismiss the creation of the State of Israel as a “Ma’ase Satan”, especially when there were clear miricles involved in its creation, is to deny the role of HKB”H in running the world.

    an Israeli Yid

    #894192

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    My point is that to dismiss the creation of the State of Israel as a “Ma’ase Satan”, especially when there were clear miricles involved in its creation, is to deny the role of HKB”H in running the world.

    It also is pure Avodah Zara. Satan has no independent power in Judaism. If you believe in “Ma’ase Satan”, then you are a Catholic.

    #894193

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Did hashgacha pratis end in 1948? If the State of Israel exists, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei

    Did hashgacha pratis end in 70 CE? If the Eretz Yisroel was destroyed, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei.

    Did hashgacha pratis end in 1939? If the holocaust happened, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei.

    They all are/were Ratzon HaBorei. So?

    #894194

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Bickering like a bunch of babies is certainly not the retzon haborei.

    #894195

    vochindik
    Member

    My point, obviously, was that it isn’t necessarily a good thing. In a certain sense the holocaust and the medina are a good thing; we’ll find out how these bad things are really good when Moshiach comes.

    As far as Ma’ase Satan, a Ma’ase Satan is also Retzon HaBorei. So both the holocaust and the medina are Ma’ase Satan that is the Retzon HaBorei.

    #894196

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Argument 2 for Zionism- Since the founding of the medinah, there is been more Jews and Torah in Eretz Yisroel since around the destruction of the 2nd Beis Mikdash

    — Do you mind explaining why it is such a fabulous thing that there have been more Jews in Eretz Yisroel? Why is that better than in USA?

    and we owe the medinah our hakaras hatov and support.

    — Again – i fail to understand: Why do we owe Hakaras hatov because there are lots of Jews in Israel? And what is our support got to do with anything? I won’t support anything i feel is immoral!?

    #894197

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Argument 2 against Zionsim- Most of the government is not religious and some of the government is even anti religious.

    Can we change that to Most of the government is anti-religious and some of the government is not religious?

    The government of Israel has an agenda to create a secular state in Israel and is prejudiced against Charedim and Frum Jews.

    Well summarized. But another point – the world looks towards ISRAEL as an example of worldwide JEWRY. Even though the two things have NO CONNECTION. When the Israeli prime ministers are all charged for corruption, and the Israeli government are self hating, it causes a huge ????? ?? ????.

    We should not support such a government.

    First statement i fully agree with.

    #894198

    Toi
    Participant

    GAW- im n ot entering into the actual debate here, im so tired of the same arguments. i just want to point out that your post above about avoda zara isnt as pashut as you say. i dont want to elucidate here for fear of being called a kofer by dumb people, but in truth its a discussion. not independant per se, but certainly something else.

    #894199

    Whiteberry
    Member

    A salient point here is that todays secular Israelis are not the “spiritual heirs” to the original secular zionists. Polls show that there is little in the way of the original zionistic attitude in todays Israeli society as a way of life. As for their antagonism towards a torah way of life, is it any different than many members of the reform movement here in the US? They grew up this way and quite frankly know as much of a torah way of life as lihavdil elef havdalos buddhism, perhaps even less. There are many, many secular israelis, who through exposure to a torah way of life, while not necessarily running to embrace torah and mitzvos (yet) are not antagonistic towards those who are shomrei torah umitzvos. Are there those who would do anything negative to a torah jew, certainly, are they members of the government, certainly is such antagonism unique to Israelis, definitely not. Read some of the statements by those against the hamptons eruv for example to see this hatred and antagonism is not unique to secular israelis. It is common among those who are “secular”.

    #894200

    shein
    Member

    Zionism is dead.

    Even in Israel it is widely acknowledges they are in, what they themselves refer to as, the post-Zionist period.

    #894201

    Josh31
    Participant

    However, Anti-Zionism as new religion appears to be in full bloom in this CR.

    I saw their site. Anyone can select verses from the Bible to prove any thing about the Messianic process.

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