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ROB – “health and HaKatan, are advocating dismantling the medinah”
That’s one of the choices, Not the only one! They can start by forcing e/o to keep the Torah. If a Goy didn’t or doesn’t keep the 7 Mitzvahs, he/she has to be dealt with.
Btw, s/o just told me that Tel Aviv is the most Gay friendly city in the world! There is No Kedusah with such a government that Israel has.
Joseph: well, at least we have advanced a bit. I don’t think that the rest of the Israelis care very much what Agudah voters think about the Zionist process. All they care is that the any inhabitant of Eretz Yisroel carry their load and the army kefaffle is about this. I truly believe that this matter will solve itself gradually. If you want to continue debating the merits or demerits of Zionism, be my guest. As long as you allow others to continue building the land.
health: come on- you think I use scare tactics? have you looked around what is happening in that neighborhood?
1. The idea that life was rosy for Jews in pre-state Palestine is false.
Prior to Zionism’s contributions to the land and society, there was widespread poverty and disease. Enormous swaths of land were not only left uncultivated, but it was believed that they could never be productive again. Government neglect meant lack of infrastructure and security. The inhabitants of Palestine (both Jewish and non-Jewish) lived under the constant threat of attack from Bedouin thieves, as well as with the danger of getting caught up in the incessant armed clashes between the various tribes and ethnic groups living in Palestine. This was in addition to the effects of wars conducted in Palestine by outsiders.
Consider, for example, the 1834 and 1838 attacks against the Jewish community in Tzfat.
2. There has never been a period in post-Biblical Jewish history in which Jews weren’t threatened/attacked – why should this one be any different? Yes, Jews died in Israel, but if there would be no State, Jews would be dying elsewhere.
3. The idea that Israel should “force everyone to keep the Torah” is ludicrous – leaving aside other issues, whose version of Torah would everyone be “forced to keep”? Satmar’s? Bobov’s? The Mir’s? Maybe Gush Etzion’s?
4. Leave gay people alone – the Sinat Chinam among Jews is a far more pressing issue. If every Frum person demonstrated deep and true love for their fellow Jews regardless of background, you would instantly double the amount of people interested in keeping Torah and Mitzvot, solve many of the issues in Israeli society, and be much more likely to see Mashiach in our lifetime.
AUNT:
The current insecurity in Israel for the past 65+ years of war and terror is greater than the insecurity preceding it in any period. 20,000+ Jewish deaths and 100,000 Jewish maimed since 1947. What other 65 year period in Palestine or the Arab countries comes even remotely close?
Better economics is no excuse to have opened this endless cycle of wars and terror.
As far as keeping the Torah is concerned, there are some basics. A Jew lights a fire on Shabbos? Executed. A gentile eats meat from a living animal? Executed.
Joseph: Please don’t corrupt the Torah. To say that a jew lighting fires on shabbos gets executed is such corruption of halocho, as you surely know. There are a multitudes of conditions that are required for this to happen. As you surely know, a Bais Din that executes ONE person in SEVENTY YEARS is a “bais DIn katlanis”. please stop with your intemperate c omments.
As far as insecurity in israel-how do you know? You were not around when R’Jehuda Halevi got beheaded on his arrival in israel. You were not there when Jews were slaughtered,along with the Moslems, by the Crusaders. For sure, you were not there in all the centuries when there was barely a Jewish Yishuv in the whole of the land. You are spouting certitudes about times that you have no idea what was happening.
And,echoing other commenters, why do you single out Israel for Jewish insecurity? How about England in the 12th century, or Spain in the late fifteenth century or France in the 13th century, or Russia in the nineteenth century….and countless of other times and places. It is our fate that dictates what happens to us ,and not Zionism. You are blinded by your ideology and you ignore the facts.
Joseph: That’s not fair. You’re talking sheer numbers. We can find 65-year periods where more Jews died per capita. In fact, probably in every single 65-year period in history more Jews per capita were killed than there have been in Israel in the last 65 years.
Also, learn some Gemara. It’s very hard to actually give the death penalty. You need Hasra’ah and for the person to acknowledge that he received the Hasra’ah then do it anyway. The most people Beis Din would end up executing would be once every few years. At absolute most.
Joseph:
In 1033, Muslims murdered 6,000 Jews in Fez; in 1066, they murdered 4,000 in Granada. That’s 10,000 in 30 years, which is the exact same rate.
Please reread my first point – there was already endless war and terror in Palestine.
It’s extraordinarily un-Jewish to be so eager to execute people.
Joseph, Hakatan and Health, I still want to know why you are intent on posting evil reports about EY. Read Mark Twain’s account in “The Innocents Abroad”. The land was desolate. Economics, FYI, is a sign of the geula (see Sanhedrin 98a with Rashi d”h meguleh mizeh).
Avi K, ROB, et al:
It is the Zionists who have been terribly evil in (and to) E”Y. You really believe Hashem derives nachas from Tel Aviv being the Toeiva capital of world!? OR from the Zionists’ century of shmad and destruction!? And all the rest?
The two points you made are completely irrelevant to the massive death and destruction, both spiritual and physical wrought by Zionism for around a century now worldwide and, in particular, in E”Y. Nationalism, whether religious or secular, was no excuse for sacrificing oceans of Jewish blood on the altar of Zionism. That includes during WW II, the State’s founding, its many wars, and more. Yet you still cling to your idol of Zionism. At least admit the facts and then, if you want to, perhaps start debating what to do about it at this point, which is a fair discussion. But the Zionist lies are really brazen because they distort our holy Torah.
As well, nobody is arguing against individual Jews living there and working the land, etc. Assuming your reading and application of the gemara in cheilek is correct, you are simply underscoring that the Zionists ruined this siman geulah and handed the Satan his greatest victory since the eigel by convincing frum Jews to daven for their idol state rather than the true geulah. Thus, Hashem listened to their tefillos and granted the former instead of the latter, most unfortunately.
May Hashem remove the blinders of Zionism from all His children and bring the true geulah BB”A.
HaKatan,
1. The current state of affairs is the fault of the masses of frum Jews who did not heed Rav Kook’s call for religious aliya which would have made Israel a Tora state from the beginning. Apparently we will have to get there slowly in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). In fact, things are constantly improving. There are two yeshivot in T.A. (one in the north and one in the south, which are two very different communities) which have both hesder and yeshiva gevoha programs as well as community programs (kindergartens, etc.). There is also a kiruv organization called Rosh Yehudi. Other cities, including mixed Jewish-Arab cities such as Lod have garinim Torani’im that have raised the elvel of the community tremendously. Someone told me that it is much easier to be religious in the IDF today than when he was in it over forty years ago (and, in fact, most of the junior officers are religious).
2. So WW2 was also the fault of the Zionists? I suppose it is also the cause of the Eurocrisis, global warming and the heartbreak of psoriasis. That just proves that it is connected to being Jewish (LOL). Rav Teichtal says the exact opposite in Em HaBanaim Semeicha. There is an obligation to establish a Jewish state as I have already posted several times.
3. I am not acquainted with the Satan. He does not consult me. However, it could actually be that the your state of denial comes from him. He has convinced you NOT to daven for the state. Perhaps you also do not daven for sick people. May Hashem remove the blinders of anti-Zionism.
HaKatan – You’ll never convince these Zionists. For ex.: “In 1033, Muslims murdered 6,000 Jews in Fez; in 1066, they murdered 4,000 in Granada”
They resort to proofs that happened hundreds of years ago! I was bringing proof during the time of the first WW. The antisemitic British & the Zionists have destroyed any relationship between Jews and Arabs in Palestine!
Health, what relationship? If there was ever any chance it was destroyed by the Mufti ym”s and his corrupt heirs. For sixty seven years Arab countries have been keeping the people they told to leave and their descendants in poverty and non-citizenship and feeding them lies that the Jews are responsible for their problems. On the other hand, Jews expelled or otherwise forced to leave from Arab countries were immediately given Israeli citizenship. One of them is the new police commissioner. Several others have been or are currently cabinet ministers.
Health:
I stopped at 1066 because the point was made – there are plenty more examples of Muslim atrocities in the intervening years. And by the way, for those talking about Shmad, the atrocities include forced conversions of Jews to Islam.
The facts are:
1. Far from being unusual, dead Jews are unfortunately the norm. If Jews had not been attacked in the last 67 years, that would be much more remarkable.
2. Although there were times and places in which Jews prospered under Muslim rule, the happy-go-lucky Muslim-Jewish relationship is a myth.
With regard to the Holy Land itself, I point again to the 1834 & 1838 attacks on Jewish Tzfat – these attacks obviously predated both Zionism and British control.
Avi K – “Health, what relationship? If there was ever any chance it was destroyed by the Mufti ym”s and his corrupt heirs.”
Who brainwashed you that the solution to our Golus is the Medina?!?
There was a relationship with the Arabs in Palestine before ’48.
The Mufti’s antisemitism was due to the actions of your beloved Zionists!
ROB:”Joseph: Please don’t corrupt the Torah. To say that a jew lighting fires on shabbos gets executed is such corruption of halocho, as you surely know. “
SAM:”Also, learn some Gemara. It’s very hard to actually give the death penalty. You need Hasra’ah and for the person to acknowledge that he received the Hasra’ah then do it anyway.”
I’m not at all following the thread of this argument. I’m just amazed at what gets past here. To say that one who is mechuyav skila is mechuyav skila, is called corrupting the Torah?!? C’mon people, what’s with you. Sam, I thought you knew better. He’s not writing of the actual execution, he’s writing of the chiyuv. Obviously an aveira that carries a CHIYUV misa is something stringent, more severe. A little talmud reading would suffice.
I’m not at all following the thread of this argument.
Perhaps if you would, you would see the context in which the relevant comments were made.
Joseph did sound a little like he was planning to execute most of the population.
DY, too much English (are you my English teacher?)
kj chusid:
What an absurd argument – 19th and early 20th century European persecution is what drove many Jews to make Aliyah in the first place. So you’re saying that because Jews tried to save themselves from rape, torture, maiming, and death, they’re responsible for the actions of a psychopathic mass murderer.
That’s messed up.
No, all usernames taken, that’s not what he’s arguing.
Froggie, Joseph was saying what should be done l’maaseh, today.
Oh, and yes. He’s just reiterating what the Torah says. If someone is mechalel shabbos with eidim and hasra’a, is matir atzmo lmisa, is convicted in a Kosher Sanhedrim of 23, is prosecuted in exact accordance with gmarah, rishonim, achronim, then yes, he will be executed.
We don’t have a Sanhedrin.
Little froggie: your comments would be absurd if they weren’t so laughable. With the Sanhedrin AND full Jewish autonomy of the land, how many people were executed for any aveirah? Not even ONE in SEVENTY years-as such a Sanhderin was considered “katlanis’ – execution-happy- for the lack of a better translation. The comments by Joseph did totally corrupt basic halacha.
DY, I’m aware of that, I wrote “IF”.
But I think his point is that he thinks people should be responsible for the religious aspect of the populace, just as much as the civil one. Because it’s HaShem’s place. Not downtown Brooklyn or Miami Beach. If one lives a life of freedom there, he’s better off being elsewhere.
kjchusid: So what? Does it mean that every comment by a rosh yeshiva or godol is accurate? Religious zionists clearly honor all gedolim but do not take their marching orders from all, There are plenty of other gedolim who disagreed with Rav Hutner zz’l and other anti -zionists. R’Chaim Shmulewitz zz’l called all those who fell in the 1967 war- ALL- not only frum soldiers- kedoshim. And he was certainly not a Zionist.
ROB, If one is processed to the fullest measures of the law, NO CONSIDERATION of SEVENTY (or ANY) years are taken in account.
We are commanded to do it, and HaShem’s commandmants takes precedents. ????? ??? ?????.
DY – “We don’t have a Sanhedrin”
So it’s Not possible to keep the Torah – so we should support the anti- Torah agenda of the Israeli government?!?
We can’t make it illegal to be gay? We can’t make it illegal to drive on Shabbos?
The truth is according to the Torah, even if there is no Bais Din, you put the guy/gal in a Keepah!
Health, Joseph said they should be executed.
Health, then what is the solution to galut? Hashem promised us EY not Boro Park.
KJ, the Mufti ym”s was born in 5657 so he could not have had any relationship with Jews prior to the impending creation of a Jewish state. While it is true that at first he supported Emir Faisal, who was pro-Zionist, his rivalry with the Nashashibi clan, which favored non-violent opposition to Zionism and later partition of EY, for intra-Arab power led him to be both anti-British and anti-Jewish. The statement from the Jewish Observer you quote is itself shameful. It whitewashes the Mufti. It is like those liberals in the US who blame crime on discrimination and never mind that the vast majority of the victims are black (similarly the Mufti’s forces killed many more Arabs than Jews). He chose his way. He could have just as easily followed Emir Faisal’s lead and urged co=operation with the Zionists for the mutual benefit of Arabs and Jews. Likewise the British chose to follow an Arabist policy. EY is ours. Period. In fact, Ramban says that the Tora starts with Creation so that WE will know this. Arabs can be gerim toshavim but they must accept Israel as a Jewish state.
Health: Putting someone in a “keepah’ as you write is only applicable in cases o MURDER. Check the gemoro.
Litttle froggie: I have no idea what you are saying. My illustration was that the Torah and halacha are very circumspect when it comes to doling out “misas bais din”. Unlike Joseph who revels in having people executed.
What I was “saying” is that if and when one is found to actually be guilty, and all conditions met, he or she is executed. No “cheshbonos” or calculations are made to outsmart the Halachah. No considerations for the frequency of seventy years or etc. are made. The ????? who says we should be leinient at times, now says we should NOT, and we follow HIS ratzon, His commandments. It is His idea that doing so is the proper thing to do – ????? ??? ?????.
That’s all that matters.
and ROB, Kippa is for other things too, check your Gemarah!
DY:
Feel free to clarify, then, what it is he’s arguing.
Health:
How about we make it illegal to be ????? ?? ?? ????
Health, then what is the solution to galut?
Moshiach
Feel free to clarify, then, what it is he’s arguing.
You somehow turned “the great public pressures for the establishment of a Jewish State” into Aliyah to escape the horrors of Europe.
The statement from the Jewish Observer you quote is itself shameful. It whitewashes the Mufti.
Of course it doesn’t. You’re using the same flawed logic as you do on the HH”B issue, that it’s okay to incite goyim since they’re reshaim anyway, and that arguing against that is somehow shifting the blame away from the reshaim.
DY,
The claim is that “until the great public pressures for the establishment of a Jewish State, the Mufti had no interest in the Jews of Warsaw, Budapest or Vilna. Once the Jews of Europe became a threat to the Mufti because of their imminent influx into the Holy Land, the Mufti in turn became for them the incarnation of the Angel of Death.”
There was no “imminent” influx; there was an ongoing influx – it started in the 1880’s (before the Mufti was born, as Avi K pointed out), and it was spurred by conditions for Jews in Europe. Of course Zionism played a role, in that it gave the immigrants hope for a positive future, but there would have been an immigration issue regardless.
The claim is that had the influx not been accompanied by a push to create a state, he would not have felt so threatened. That claim is far from absurd.
Avi K – “KJ, the Mufti ym”s was born in 5657 so he could not have had any relationship with Jews prior to the impending creation of a Jewish state.”
Stop with the Zionist propaganda!
This is the truth as quoted from KJ: “Years ago, it was still easy to find old residents of Yerushalayim who remembered the cordial relations they had maintained with the Mufti in the years before the impending creation of a Jewish State.”
allusernamestaken – ” How about we make it illegal to be ????? ?? ?? ????”
I agree! The creation of the state & their policies have created the atmosphere we have today – that terror is the norm all the time in Israel!
health: quotes from “old residents of jerushalaim” are very suspect. They are not subject to any verification. And- to say that “they had maintained cordial relations before the impending creation of the Jewish state’ is ridiculous. The Hebron massacre, instigated by the Mufti,occurred in 1929. The virulent nazi-like hatred by the mufti was well developed decades before an actual Jewish state was thought of. These comments are nothing but a white wash of the mufti and his acolytes and it is contradicted by the acts of cruelty and murder that the Arabs committed as early as the beginning of the twentietht century.
ROB, trivia question for you: In what year was the first Zionist Congress held?
kjchusid and healh: you probably never heard of Josef Trumpeldor. He was killed by Arabs in 1920 defending jewish lives. Arabs were murdering jews many years before there was talk of an independent Jewish state.
LF: There is a Chiyuv on the Beis Din to try to avoid getting to the point where you actually have all of the requirements for execution.
rob: Kippah can (in theory) be for anything, according to the Gemara, though some Rishonim try and limit it.
Health: The truth is that in 1678 Yemenite Jews remembered the cordial relations they had with their neighbors and rulers for the previous century or so. And then a ruler who didn’t like them got up and most of them were killed. That’s what our relationship under Muslim rule was like for a millennium. Cordial and happy, until they decide to kill us.
DaasYochid: the first Zionist Congress was in 1897. Nowhere in that manifesto does the Congress ask for an independent state. It asks for a “home” for jews. Incidentally, that was also the formulation of the Balfour Declaration that allowed for a home for the Jewish people. If you feel that allowing the jews to come back to their ancestral home- something that had occurred for centuries – and that this was justification enough for the Arabs to start murdering jews, we sure are not on the same page.
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