Zionism, Why the Big Debate?
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- This topic has 235 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by ☕ DaasYochid ☕.
November 12, 2014 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1101940
1. His name was Hillel Rivlin. One of his descendants was Shlomo Zalman Rivlin, who published it without the more esoteric parts but did not write it. It was accepted as authentic by Rav Teuchtal, Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) and Rav Menachem Kasher.
2. The descendants of the Gra are numerous. It could be that some drifted into NK but they are actually a branch of Satmar.
3. How many proofs do I need? Do I have to repeat each one 400 times like Rav Preida (Eruvin 54b).November 12, 2014 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1101941Yosi7Member
Avi k- Please look up the piece by Rav Shterbuch I mentioned. Also, the primary descendants of the Gra today, for example, Rav Shternbuch, are anti- zionist so that is good enough for me.
3) Well, look up the sources from the previous page you said you would look up.November 12, 2014 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1101942rabbiofberlinParticipant
Avi K : Thanks for your elucidation.I thought that this was the case. The caps on beer or mineral water are already caps-and it only requires to unscrew them. The caps that are made in one piece and where the bottom part breaks off can indeed be a problem as th action of breaking the bottom makes the top a “kli”- albeit a very tiny one! I think that-going back some decades- sardine cans were similarly a question and-if I remember correctly- the Tselemer Rov zz’l paskened that it is ok-as long as you threw away the empty can and never used it.November 12, 2014 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1101943YesOrNoParticipant
hi I am new to CR.
one great reason to debate Zionism is to have something to talk about…November 13, 2014 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1101944
Avi: The NK are pure Litvaks and from the Talmidei HaGRA. They even daven Nusach Ashkenaz in their shuls.November 13, 2014 6:13 am at 6:13 am #1101945
Lior, according to the Wikipedia article they are descended from both Lithuanian and Hungarian Jews whereas according to the Jewish Virtual library they are mainly of Hungarian descent. I would imagine that their ideology would attract Satmar Chassidim (who originated in Hungary). In any case, all agree that they are are miniscule group.November 13, 2014 9:42 am at 9:42 am #1101946
Wiki and the JVL are incorrect. They’re what I said earlier and Satmar is distinct and unaffiliated with them other than an overlap of some viewpoints. Don’t make the error of assuming all or even most opponents of zionism are Satmar.November 13, 2014 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1101948November 13, 2014 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1101949
What was wrong with my post?
Incomprehensible, probably autocorrect issue.November 13, 2014 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1101950
Somebody will have to pasken this machloket before someone is mekadesh a woman on condition that NKniks are one or the other. LOLNovember 13, 2014 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1101951
Oh im sorry! The original NK were litvaks. Today’s rabble rousers are former satmarsNovember 15, 2014 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1101952
Sam2, see R’ Elchonon Wasserman, Kovetz Maamarim, third letter.November 16, 2014 12:01 am at 12:01 am #1101953November 16, 2014 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1101954
So do Lapid, Bennett, and Lipman.November 16, 2014 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1101955
I didn’t say anything about what they mean. I just said if they’re chasidish or litvish. What does “mean well” mean when they endorse murderers?November 16, 2014 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1101956
Lapid, Bennett, and Lipman cause actual damage with the laws they pass with their legislative votes and advocacy. What actual damage do those clowns do other than looking like buffoons?November 16, 2014 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1101957ShalomMember
I had an interesting thought over Shabbat about the 3 oaths and Islam:
I am not an expert on Islamic law, but it seems that the Muslims believe that Israel belongs to Islam because they had sovereignty over it throughout the Middle Ages. Even though Britain had legal ownership over the land, the Muslims did not accept that as ownership, and the Arab League rejected the plan to give Israel to the Jews.
Therefore, the oath may still have applied in the 1940s, because we rebelled against the goyim who believed they had rights to the land, namely the Arab League in representation of Islam.
link removedNovember 16, 2014 7:06 am at 7:06 am #1101958
It means they have pure intentions I know members personally and there really tzadikim even if I don’t agree with the Palestinian flags and such so I wouldn’t call them “clowns and buffoons” their general message is %100 right there methods are more debatableNovember 16, 2014 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1101959
Their general message is right? That the president of Iran is right? What makes them tzaddiks? That they wear chasisidush clothing?November 16, 2014 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #1101960
It is not debatable that embracing those who would ch”v do the unspeakable to us if given the chance does not bespeak an abundance of ahavas Yisroel. These reshaim (since you don’t like the terms “clowns” or “buffoons”) are complete outcasts from Satmar.November 16, 2014 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1101961
DY: They’re outcasts and buffoons everywhere and their thinking they’re today’s Yochanon speaking to Vesapian is clownish. But how are they reshaim? All their doing is making a spectacle. They’re best ignored, IMO. I never got why their given all the attention they get. That’s what they want, in fact.November 16, 2014 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1101962
Reshaim are reshaim even if they’re not successful, but I dont get how you don’t seem bothered by the chillul Hashem they cause. Halevai the media wouldn’t cover them, but since they gleefully do, we need to point out that they are outcasts and do not represent our views.November 16, 2014 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1101963
I’m with you on pointing out they’re outcasts and represent no one. I’m questioning why you’re deeming them reshaim. What are they not successful at? Of course I’m bothered by the cH. If that’s why you deem that as such, do you deem all others who commit other types of cH as such as well?November 16, 2014 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1101964
You said, What actual damage do those clowns do other than looking like buffoons? , so I’m pointing out that they would be reshaim anyhow just for their sinas Yisroel, and that they do in fact cause actual damage, namely, chillul Hashem.November 16, 2014 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1101965
They are really upstanding people I wouldn’t insult themNovember 16, 2014 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1101966
I would insult them as long as they are standing upNovember 16, 2014 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1101967
I would. They are an embarrasment to klal yisroel, and they give strength to our ardent enemies.November 16, 2014 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1101968
They have a good pointNovember 16, 2014 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1101969
Standing up, sitting down, makes no difference.November 16, 2014 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1101970MDGParticipant
“I am not an expert on Islamic law, but it seems that the Muslims believe that Israel belongs to Islam because they had sovereignty over it throughout the Middle Ages. …., because we rebelled against the goyim who believed they had rights to the land, namely the Arab League in representation of Islam.”
We don’t live by sharia.
I just learned with my son last night the Mishnah in B”M that says if a deer is on your property but is running normally, you don’t have any claim to it (unless you can catch while it’s still on your property, which is not normally the case). In this case, we don’t recognize their looking at E”Y and saying “mine” Other mishnayot in that first perek also reinforce the fact that one must be koneh something with an action and not just say “I want it therefore it’s mine.”November 16, 2014 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1101971
Iran is not the problem Zionism is. the Arabs are not our enemiesNovember 16, 2014 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1101973
“Arabs are not our enemies”Under which rock are you living?November 16, 2014 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #1101974
The zionists are the one that made the problems before Zionism Jews and Muslims
Lived in relative harmony was it perfect no but Jews actually took refuge from Europe to Arab countries and the Arabs accepted us so apparently there not our enemiesNovember 16, 2014 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1101975
Don’t really see what your saying since its one long sentence… But it’s ok . I’m done here now.November 16, 2014 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1101976
U get my point. Don’t call Arabs the enemy of the Jews that’s what zionists want you
To believe.November 16, 2014 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1101977
Fact: Arabs are enemies if Jews. Other than that you can turn however you pleaseNovember 16, 2014 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1101978
No Arabs are enemies of zionists not Jews the problem us that the the two are frequently bundled togetherNovember 16, 2014 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1101979
Even if you want to say that arab terror has been caused by zionism, it is too late now. At this point, the muslim world hates us period. Also in recent years muslim terror has been reaching unprecedented levels, even if this is because of israel, it is too late to simply turn it peaceful. I have seen NK protesting in East Jerusalem, and I have been verbally attacked multiple times in East Jerusalem, even though they know not all jews are zionists. They dont ask if you are a zionist before they attack you, and of you do not believe me, ask those murdered by terrorists in recent days. Ask the chossid in belgium who just got stabbed. These are the facts, do woth them what you wishNovember 16, 2014 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1101980👑RebYidd23Participant
Some Arabs are not enemies of Jews.November 17, 2014 3:10 am at 3:10 am #1101981
Israel is the enemy of the Jews not ArabsNovember 17, 2014 7:24 am at 7:24 am #1101982
Bp yidd–Can you give some evidence for that please?November 17, 2014 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1101983
Learn history and you will find outNovember 18, 2014 5:53 am at 5:53 am #1101984
Text of the Agreement
Agreement Between Emir Feisal and Dr. Weizmann (relvant articles)
3 January 1919
The Arab State and Palestine in all their relations and undertakings shall be controlled by the most cordial goodwill and understanding, and to this end Arab and Jewish duly accredited agents shall be established and maintained in the respective territories.
Immediately following the completion of the deliberations of the Peace Conference, the definite boundaries between the Arab State and Palestine shall be determined by a Commission to be agreed upon by the parties hereto.
In the establishment of the Constitution and Administration of Palestine, all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantees for carrying into effect the British Government’s Declaration of the 2nd of November, 1917.
All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.
Thus we see that the Arab leadership agreed to a Jewish state in the Ottoman province of Palestine – and this was in 1919 when it included what is now Jordan. Later, the Mufti of Yerushayim ym”s caused trouble in order to gain personal power. However, opposing one group cannot be called rebellion. In any case, the vast majority of the other nations supported establising a Jewish state.December 2, 2014 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1101985
I think the Har Habayis issue is an example of how the Zionism issue is still relevant:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/har-habayis-debate-baryonim-of-our-timesDecember 2, 2014 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1101986MachaaMakerMember
Yom haatzmaut is gematria bittul Torah. Go checkDecember 2, 2014 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1101987voos epesMember
Yom hastzmut is a fast day by meDecember 2, 2014 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1101988eekMember
I’m very proud of you. If you don’t like something somebody else does, don’t do it. Why the over excessive drama?December 2, 2014 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1101989DaMosheParticipant
Again? Seriously?December 2, 2014 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1101990OURtorahParticipant
voos- are you really starting up again? I would like to give you an insight into how the people you disagree so much with view people life you:
I grew up in that community so I see it first hand.
They think you are close minded and that you think you are so frum but you just hate them for loving Israel.
My opinion in this matter is completly irrelevant, I just wanted to let you know theirs. They think you don’t love them, and Im sure you think they don’t love you either. That is completly wrong. Put aside your differences and recognize they are a Jew first and foremost.
You want to make Hashem proud, work on your Derech Eretz bein adam lechaveyro before you go and be machmir on hating Israel. And the same should go for the passionate zionists. You both take extreme approaches. You must take a balanced approach, emphasizing one mitzva at the sake of 100 others is a huge problem.December 2, 2014 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1101991Patur Aval AssurParticipant
Yom hastzmut is a fast day by me
Like Yom Kippur, or like Tisha B’av?
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