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Much of the discussion here is about how we Orthodox Jews should relate to the State of Israel.
There’s no doubt that Gedolei Yisroel sometimes used harsh language towards the ideology of Zionism & the danger it is for the Jewish people. There were Zionists who harbored tremendous hatred towards Torah observant Jews & wanted to create a new State free of Torah & Mitzvos, A state of Kefirah & Nationalism. They caused tremendous harm to the Jewish people.However, we are now living long after the ideological Zionists have passed on. The average Israeli doesn’t oppose us for ideological reasons, he’s a tinok shenishba who wants to live an unrestricted secular lifestyle. These lost Jews aren’t Amaleik, they aren’t Nazi’s, they are being misled by the Eirev Rav Media, & leftist politicians. Zionism still remains a grave danger to Jewish identity because it seeks to replace Judaism with Jewish Nationalism. The masses of Jews who oppose Torah learning are victims of Zionism & should not be conflated with the zionist ideologues. We should not condemn most modern-day Israelis with the evils of zionism.
Haimy:
This is a common mistake. That same heretical and deeply anti-Jewish ideology of Zionism is exactly what powers that “State” today. In terms of the average Israeli who has been shmaded by the Zionists, and trying to bring them back to Torah, that is a different matter. But it is not “just” the “erev rav media and leftist politicians”, as you claim. It is the “State” and its core ideology of Zionism that is the problem, not just “leftists”.So well written and so true!!!
And so so accurate!!
This generation is just ignorant and has been robbed of their tradition.
There is a remnant of the original (non religious) Zionism which is fighting for its life which is a source of great suffering for Am Yisrael which causes confusion and holds us back from vanquishing our enemy. Hashem Yerachem.
But the overwhelming majority are as stated above by Haimy.Jews of the diaspora are even deeper in the clutches of the Eirev Rav and the Sitra Achra without even realizing it.
For 2000 years we were hated and oppressed, and lived in the golus in dire poverty.
Now that the Geula is on the threshold, the Sitra Achra has made the golus so comfortable, attractive and lucrative that Jews are Rachmana Latzlan unable to extract themselves from it. Instead of pooling their resources to prepare housing, jobs, chinuch etc in Eretz Yisroel for the masses who will be coming with the arrival of Moshiach, they think they still need to butter up the Poritz and advocate shmadvocate.
Such a Rachmanus… בורות נשבורות…..People are waiting to hear the shofar of Moshiach…..OMG here we hear it loud and clear!!!
Hashem rejoices in every one of his children who come home even though they get tested to see if they are worthy to live in Hashem’s backyard so its not easy but just look at the haftorahs…מי ילד לי כל אלה ? Hashem is thrilled with every child who comes to live near the Palace – especially the ones who are shomer Torah and Mitzvos because they, just by their presence are mashpia on the ones who dont know any better.And how sad it is that many Frum people are totally unaware that the MELECH MALCHEI HAMELACHIM is waiting for them to return home.
Not taking a side here-just poking holes in your argument:
How are they today? Are they still running a state of Kefirah and Nationalism? (ironically, Rav Elchanan warned before the war that the Nazis were going to be a Midah Kneged Midah punishment for Yidden engaging in the “isms” of the day. He wrote that many Yidden were engaging in Zionism-a form of nationalism while many others were engaging in socialism/communism and as a punishment Hashem was sending the national-socialists “Nazi” for short.)
There are still many in Israel (especially in the ruling government) who harbor a deep hatred towards Torah observant Jews and seek to cause further harm to the Jewish people.
The fact that people are tinikos shenishbu doesn’t mean that you should actively associate with them or trust them. They are still seeking to cause harm, albeit due to being misled .
So well written and so true!!!
And so so accurate!!
This generation is just ignorant and has been robbed of their tradition.
There is a remnant of the original (non religious) Zionism which is fighting for its life which is a source of great suffering for Am Yisrael which causes confusion and holds us back from vanquishing our enemy. Hashem Yerachem.
But the overwhelming majority are as stated above by Haimy.Jews of the diaspora are even deeper in the clutches of the Eirev Rav and the Sitra Achra without even realizing it.
For 2000 years we were hated and oppressed, and lived in the golus in dire poverty.
Now that the Geula is on the threshold, the Sitra Achra has made the golus so comfortable, attractive and lucrative that Jews are Rachmana Latzlan unable to extract themselves from it. Instead of pooling their resources to prepare housing, jobs, chinuch etc in Eretz Yisroel for the masses who will be coming with the arrival of Moshiach, they think they still need to butter up the Poritz and advocate shmadvocate.
Such a Rachmanus… בורות נשבורות…..People are waiting to hear the shofar of Moshiach…..OMG here we hear it loud and clear!!!
Hashem rejoices in every one of his children who come home even though they get tested to see if they are worthy to live in Hashem’s backyard so its not easy but just look at the haftorahs…מי ילד לי כל אלה ? Hashem is thrilled with every child who comes to live near the Palace – especially the ones who are shomer Torah and Mitzvos because they, just by their presence are mashpia on the ones who dont know any better.And how sad it is that many Frum people are totally unaware that the MELECH MALCHEI HAMELACHIM is waiting for them to return home.
Evalimoshavlo:
That same heretical and deeply anti-Jewish ideology of Zionism is exactly what powers that “State” today. It is not “just” the “erev rav media and leftist politicians”, as you claim. It is the “State” and its core ideology of Zionism that is the problem, not just “leftists”.And, no, Hashem is not waiting for all Jews to return to E”Y before Mashiach, as that is against the gezeiras haGalus. A Jew must live where he can observe the Torah as best as he can. For many, that is certainly not the Zionist paradise.
Haimy > Gedolei Yisroel have not encouraged Mass aliya in the past or present. As Rav Avigdor Miller ZL said, if you were born here, you probably belong here.
I am all for caution and conservative policies. But, as you know, in some cases, like before WW2, this policy led to bad results. That also lead to numerous people losing their trust on chochomim (or at least claiming that this was the reason). how do you account for this, or maybe you know how did R Miller talk about this?
Haimy > State itself is the creation of evil people
it is hard to generalize about everyone, but surely many of them have grown up totally assimilated and chose the most Jewish derech among those typically available in their circles. Alternatives were – intermarriage, baptism and reform in Western Europe, communism and anarchism in Eastern, consumerism via US. Hertzl is a good example.
As you are saying, they achieved something that Hashem chose as a vessel for good, so they achieved something good, so no need to be puzzled about that if you reject the notion that they were all pure evil.
Haimy > I believe that we should feel hakaras hatov to the individual soldier putting his life in danger on my behalf. We shouldn’t have hakaras hatov to the State, whose goal is Shmading Klal Yisroel.
This is a great approach. Talking about “state” is a waste of time, indeed, focus on people.
> I’m not advocating that we associate with & mingle with tinokos shenishbu.
There are limits, of course, but wouldn’t you feel for those Jews. There might be less urgency in Israel, but in US and other galut countries, those remaining non-observant Jews are on a steep path to assimilation and disappearance. I often wonder how can so many Jews walk calmly to their shuls while their brothers are being annihilated nearby.
Thank you to haimy for your nuanced post .
.Haimy, structured learning a worthy exercise, I know programs that organize that, but it is also not a substitute for personal connection – being friends, knowing families, participating in other people’s lives. It does not mean you have to go to any crazy party they have. I think this idea that we as a community will melt if we relate to our fellow Jews is a sad story.
PS Also, I am with Lubavitcher Rebbe on not using the word “kiruv”. It is somewhat presumptuous to feel that you are closer and can direct someone. (I felt this way myself and later read that LR rejected the term when it became popular).
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