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June 21, 2009 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #649163
PY, I shudder to think that you are actually sanctioning the mafia defense of “he got in our way, so we killed him”. It’s just another proof that Zionism is incompatible with Torah-true Judaism.June 21, 2009 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #649164
1* you still haven’t cited your sources re the status of relgious Zionism.
2. you stated the following ” Rav Kook, frankly, was very misguided “. Just imagine
someone ridiculing the Chazon Ish for his views. What gives you the
authority or the chutzpah to judge Rav Kook?June 21, 2009 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #649165
Look at what Rav Kook has produced compared to the legacy of, lehavdil, the Chazon Ish (or the Satmarer Rov). Only a deluded dreamer cannot see that the State is not anything remotely resembling reishis tzmichas geulaseinu; at best it is value neutral but too mired in corruption to do much to elevate; at worst it delays the redemption by keeping Jews away from Torah.
Criticizing Rav Kook is no different from criticizing neo-Carlebachians. He was not a kofer, but he was not one hundred per cent within the dalet amois of Torah either. In fact the more I read of Rav Kook, the less I want to read because his misplaced values and worship of the land sound like New Age distortions of the Torah that are all too common today.
And it is telling that today’s Religious Zionist youth follow a weird pick and choose mishmosh of a few quotes from Chabad sources, a bit of Likutei Moharan taken similarly out of context, some Carlebach and Rav Kook. Isolated teachings from Chabad (as I know all too well) and Breslov are very easily misinterpreted into pop New Age feel good philosophy, Carlebach is well, Carlebach, and then there is Rav Kook, whose worship of the state and land is a combination of European nationalism and failed back to the land movements of Eastern Europe, fits in perfectly.
In fact most Religious Zionists are Americans, a few of whom become Anglos, not really MO and not really RZ, when they do make it to EY and most of whom outgrow dreams of aliyah by the time they graduate from professional school.June 22, 2009 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #649167feivelParticipant
all i know of Rav Kook, tz’l is what i heard Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tz’l say
He said he was a very great man (and if you know Rabbi Miller, you know he doesnt praise lightly or flatter anyone. He said Rav Kook was a very idealistic man, and this led him to make a mistake.
i cant say more because this is all i heard Rabbi Miller say.June 22, 2009 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #649168
Indeed it takes a great man to make a great mistake sometimes. And there are also issues with misquotes and quotes out of context. (if you want misquotes just look at my post before this one; it was done in haste and is full of errors ;))!June 22, 2009 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #649169
Again, I am not a historian or a posek, but Dehaan had one and only mission, which was to farshterr the nascent state.
I would not know whether the rules of ovid inish dina lnafshei, or ba bamachteres, or rodef, or mored bmalchus, would apply here. I doubt anybody can pasken on them without a pro- or anti- negiah. But just as a mashal, suppose you were shipwrecked on an island, and had enough material for one boat to get back to civilization. But the other guy with you on the island decides he wants to wreck your boat just after you finish building it. There is no pikuach nefesh, as you can happily eat coconuts ad meah vesrim shana. But you really want to get off the island back to your family, and this guy is bent on wrecking your boat. Is there any heter to take the law into your hands and kill the guy if he won’t desist. It is your only chance to get back to your family that you will ever have. So this is just a mashal, but obviously involves complicated ethical shailas of pikuach nefesh.
Jothar, whether the Zionists did right or wrong back then, your conclusion that this proves Zionism is incompatible with Torah is a bit problematical, considering your study was done using a sample population of one. Would it be fair to say that the Chareidim are incompatible with Torah because one mishugeneh in Beit Shemesh beat a 3 year old child unconscious with the mother’s permission, and ran away to South America.
A single incident is not indicative of a movement. Do Zionists routinely go around killing people on the street? If they even kill a potential terrorist, they are brought up on charges and subject to a long investigation before they can be cleared. There is taharas haneshek being practiced.
Kilobear, your complaints of the conduct of the Zionists following the ’67 war that they gave the har habayis over to the wakf, basically falls into the category of Zionists are bad because they are not Zionist enough. Like saying robbers are bad because they don’t rob enough. Isn’t that self contradictory? So you basically agree with the Zionist ideal of having a Jewish state. I would also have liked to see a more assertive stance by the govt. But maybe if all the chareidim had been mecahazek the govt then and stood with them and gave them a yasher koach and explained that they should have more bitachon that the RBSH will not let anything bad happen if they ignore the calls of the world to give back what they won, then the govt would have had more bravery. But because the chareidim are knocking the govt from the right and telling them they are illegitimate, and the world is knocking them from the left and telling them they have no legitimate rights to Yerushalayim and Yesha, they didn’t have enough self-confidence to hold on to it. Instead of blaming the govt, why not have all the charedim give them some Torah chizuk. It might go a long way.June 22, 2009 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #649170HoodzMember
Why did the jews have to take israel over in palistine the yidden were frum the arabs were quite and everything was calmJune 23, 2009 12:26 am at 12:26 am #649171
PY: I am truly sickened that someone calling himself a Jew could condone the murder of a Jew in cold blood. This truly is disgraceful.June 23, 2009 3:49 am at 3:49 am #649172
Murder is murder, no matter how chillingly logical it might be to a Zionist. One known Prime Minister ordered the hit on De Haan. Another took part in the Altalena mass murder. Other Zionists in Brest-Litovsk tried killing the Brisker Rav through slander when he sat down during Hatikvah. Rav Kook was no rotzeach. But the secular Zionists who founded Israel were.June 23, 2009 8:56 am at 8:56 am #649173
Re 67: That is just a proof that the Zionist idea of being like all the nations is a failure and a disaster to Jews. It proved once and for all that for the Zionists, Jewish values meant nothing, and that they thought Har HaBayis was theirs to do what they want with and use as a peace offering, rather than Hashem’s and given bederech ness to very undeserving Jews.
No one understood the implications of the Waqf transfer at the time – except those who had the power to do otherwise. But they did not care. They did not want to show the whole Muslim world that Hashem had taken Har HaBayis away from tribes who worship a meteorite in Mecca. They traded a real victory for American aid that allowed their ridiculous socialist economy to run for 20 odd more years, and for complacency that led to the disaster of 1973 and the beginning of people questioning the whole Zionist enterprise and starting to advocate more and more surrender as they saw that the medine was not invincible. And here, too, they could have marched all the way to Cairo and Damascus as Hashem gave His foolish people yet another chance in EY – but they were beholden to the US and had to listen to Kissinger and Nixon instead of HKBH.
In short, the medine showed that it was not the New Jew. It was and is the ultimate beaten, degraded golus Jew, a schnorrer of funds and favors which thinks it needs the world to justify its very existence. Contrast that to the shearis hapleita who after all they suffered, did not give up and instead rebuilt proud Torah lives in proud Torah communities on Hashem’s terms all over the world, and who now have KAH BH three digit numbers of proud, frum descendants. Who is the New Jew? The answer is, the bent old man, a survivor of the Nazis, the Communists or even both, probably close to 90 now KAH BH, who comes to his descendants’ simchas and looks out over a whole hall of his ehrlicher descendants, who like himself proudly live Torah lives and have no fear of showing who they are.
Re: charedi influence. 1967 was not now as far as charedi influence in government was concerned. The frum population was far smaller; the great wave of tshuva had not begun, and while as a matter of fact charedim except the kanoim did see the victory as a ness, it hardly mattered to the memsheles zadoin and Dayan OLBM (who loved the land so much he stole antiquities, sold them, and passed on a very nice estate) what any Yid who believed in Torah thought.June 23, 2009 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #649174ddMember
Thanks for your sensible and thoughtful comments. Once again, a voice of reason among a herd of kannoim.June 23, 2009 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #649175
Chaverim, you know I am not condoning it. I said I am not paskening anything. I am just laying out the shayla. During wartime or the conquest of a land bad things happen. You know that in Tanach, bad things happened during war as well. All I am saying is that this one mayseh does not speak for all Zionists.
During the holocaust, there was this frum Jewish fellow (possibly named Rumkowski) who had assisted the Nazis in meeting their quotas. While the gemara says we cannot turn over any Jew, and better if they all die, this fellow decided he would placate the Nazis by turning over the elderly and unfit to work (I think children also), to show “good faith” that the others would work and in turn be saved. He figured otherwise they would all be killed, as the Nazis threatened.
At the end of the war, other frum Jews took him and beat him to death. There was no beis din or protocol or psak din followed. They simply beat him with their bare hands. During difficult times, abnormal things happen.June 23, 2009 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #649176
How can you compare the actions of an out and out moiser like Rumkowski OLBM (who according to Wikipedia was actually a Zionist BTW and does not seem to have been frum by any accounts I am able to find), to any of the actions which prompted Ben Gurion’s crew to kill either deHaan or the Irgun activists in cold blood?
Rumkowski asked parents to hand over their children for extermination. This is subhuman, regardless of the circumstances, and in so doing he gave the Nazis a victory by sinking to their level.
Comparing this to anything else is beyond ludicrous and either shows delusion, lack of proper research and/or an out and out desire to mislead. Your incorrect facts seem to indicate that you are conflating some story that circulated somewhere or another with the real history of Rumkowski OLBM.
In fact, you just gave fuel to the extremists who call the government of EY the Judenrat. That is going way too far; they are deluded, not evil, and unlike the Judenrat which truly did control the life of its unfortunate subjects, EY is a free country and it is very easy to escape the Zionist malaise as so many Israelis do by just moving abroad. (Tzipi Livni herself said that living in Israel is now optional, and Olmert’s children live outside EY.)
In reality, the misleaders in EY are just children playing government with their rich Uncle Sam’s money the way children play house and store with toys their parents give them.
What I do not know is whether the idea of a state in EY before Moshiach is doomed to fail because it is not meant to happen, or whether it is just that the state is mismanaged because it is steeped in secularism just as the reign of Ahav and Izevel, or Yoravam ben Navot, was steeped in avoida zoro and rishus.
I still believe that if one prime minister stood up and said: “Listen, world. We do not live in EY because of what happened on May 14, 1948. We live here because it was here that Avraham Avinu recognized the One G-d and it was here to which we returned 3300 years ago with Moshe Rabbeinu” it would change everything. So far, no prime minister, left or right, has done that.
They have all forgotten, or have never learned, that am segula depends only on Hashem and when we do that we can rise above world politics. After the Churban, we should have realized once and for all that we have no one except ourselves and our Father in Heaven. With the exception perhaps of R’ Meir Kahane HYD I know of no Zionist, religious or secular, who rose to that level. And that is why left and right banned his party, which some say would have gotten 18 seats during the last election before he was killed al kiddush Hashem. (no, I don’t accept nor do I wish to argue R’ Kahane HYD’s shitta but even if he was a self appointed Pinchas whose shitta had no real basis in Torah and was really Jabotinsky’s pie in the sky philosophy dressed with a yarmulke, he was on the right track.)June 23, 2009 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #649177
Chaverim, you know I am not condoning it. I said I am not paskening anything. I am just laying out the shayla.
PY: And I am just “laying out the shayla” if it permitted to kill PY, him being a zionist. I am not paskening anything. Maybe some anti- will pasken we can, even though another pro- might of paskened not.June 23, 2009 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #649178
KiloBear, I now understand where you are coming from. You really are an ardent Zionist, but disappointed that the state is not more right wing than it is. But whereas many of us are just as disappointed as you, we haven’t given up and turned against it, whereas you have. BTW I believe that Netanyahu just said exactlly what you wanted him to say, and almost all the PM’s have talked about our age-old rights in Yerushalayim, so I don’t know why you ignore these speeches. They all say Jlem will never be divided as it is the heart of the history of our nation, etc. Please reread some of the past and current speeches.
In addition, there is not a single Jew who deep down does not believe that our yeshuos and victories in EY were anything less than miraculous. Nobody believes that Tzahal alone could have pulled off what they did. Yes, I am upset about the loss of 3,000 boys in the Yom Kippur war. But that tragedy doesn’t make me give up on the state. I was furious about Gush Katif, but I still haven’t given up.
You really are not in the Satmar camp, although you use a lot of subterfuge to throw people off what you truly believe. The Kahane part was the tip-off.
As far as Rumkowski, obviously he was an ocher yisroel. Nevertheless, according to halacha, I believe he would still require a beis din to give him a din misa, and that there is no heter to kill someone after the fact without a beis din shel esrim vshloshah. Nevertheless, it happened. We can’t judge those who killed him, as nobody knows what they were feeling. (I hope that it is Rumkowski who I am referring to. Else it was someone similar, as I read an article years ago about this person.)June 23, 2009 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #649179
a600kb: Leave it to PY to defend Jew-killers as well as the likes of Rumkowski. Afterall, he is “not paskening anything” rather “just laying out the shayla.”June 23, 2009 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #649180ddMember
“I still believe that if one prime minister stood up and said: “Listen, world. We do not live in EY because of what happened on May 14, 1948. We live here because it was here that Avraham Avinu recognized the One G-d and it was here to which we returned 3300 years ago with Moshe Rabbeinu” it would change everything. So far, no prime minister, left or right, has done that.”
Well Menachem Begin z”l said essentially that in the Knesset when first elected:June 23, 2009 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #649181
However, he did not make that point clear to Jimmy Carter, nor did he stand up for that point when the idea of Yishmoeli autonomy was thrust upon him by that anti-Semite YMS and the conniving Sadat lo bashamayim hu.
I would like to see someone say that to Barack Obama, who is Jimmy Carter redux, and then follow through with real actions.
And no, I am not a Zionist. Not in the least. Zionism is the am Segula being just another nation. I am a proud anti-Zionist who is concerned about the safety of Jews and the kedusha of the land in Eretz Yisroel.
I believe that had the Zionists of old and Emir Faisal (a chossid umois haoilam) been able to agree to a bi-national state, that we would have been better off than we are today. However, for whatever reason that only Hashem knows, Emir Faisal moved on and we got a chance at a state – which we are blowing more and more as the years pass and misguided Zionism becomes the rishus of post-Zionism.
A state of the type we suffer with now is a toeiva – singing lihyot am chofshi beartzeinu (and being beholden to the US, EU and UN so that the words are a laugh anyway) is only one step worse than chanting Hara Kishka. Or maybe it is even worse, as a goy singing dumb words about a getschke may not be as bad as a Yid desecrating the kedusha of Eretz Yisroel.
I am a Jew. I am not a Zionist.
As a Jew, Eretz Yisroel is sacred to me and I cannot stand its desecration by successive secular regimes. I also do not feel that religious participation in the system can ever metaher the sheretz. Again, when there is a cake made with lye, you do not want a bigger piece of it unless you want it to feed to the rats. You want to make sure you do not eat it and that you warn everyone else not to eat it as well even if it does look like a perfectly good chocolate cake and even if it has a hechsher that you might eat bedieved.June 23, 2009 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #649182
Hate to say it but I think you are conflating some urban legend or even the plot of a novel with the life of the real Rumkowski.
Rumor has it that some kapos were killed (whether by frum Jews, partisans or enraged mobs of no particular ideological affiliation I do not know) but Rumkowski died in Auschwitz well before its liberation.
While it is hard to judge someone for what they did during the war, Rumkowski clearly sank to the level of his persecutors and the only zechus that there may be is that he broke down under pressure.
Re R’ Kahane HYD.
I made it very clear I do not endorse his shitta. I believe in fact that he was mentally ill toward the end of his rather unusual life and incapable of doing much else besides sounding off and not following through. However, I believe he was sincere and at least exhibited gaon Yaakov and ahavas Yisroel.
And one more thing:
Do not think for one minute that the secular Zionists see the religious Zionists as anything but benighted dosim. They want to see everyone drop the kippa, no matter whether it is made of velvet or crocheted wool. Maybe they’ll accept a dime size knitted kipah worn for good luck or as a fashion statement but that is about it.
I just remembered a skit by a disgraced and disgraceful menuval of an Israeli comedian (he’s in jail now for a harebrained scheme that is far funnier than his performances and his initials are DT) in which he made fun of charedim for not serving in the army. I think he did it to satirize the battles for Shabbos. DT ended it with mockery of Yosef Burg AH (IIRC he contrasted Burg AH with a popular model who was leading the fight against shmiras Shabbos at the time), who was so much of a farbrente RZ that he used to fight vehemently against any assistance for those who avoid the heter mechira.
For those who are poisoned by the Zionist kefira, anyone who keeps halacha is benighted. They believe their movement has superseded halacha and that the supreme value is having a state which is in essence a wannabe America.June 24, 2009 8:23 am at 8:23 am #649183aggadah99Participant
A600kilobear: Tzippi Livini says it’s optional to live in Israel. You obviously believe the same thing. I do not support her or agree with her ideas (or those of any government that’s been so far), but if you are so familiar with life here, you know it is not easy. Ein eretz yisrael niknet ela biyisurim. And she and other chilonim are koineh the Land in a way that those who live in chul are not. So, you are frum, but this is one mitzva that you do not keep and the chilonim here do.June 24, 2009 10:26 am at 10:26 am #649184
But they keep one OPTIONAL mitzvah and desecrate the land by neglecting the rest! There is NO clear mitzvah to settle the Land in present times and situations and all of the Zionist propaganda in the world will not change that. There is no such thing as reishis tzmichas geulaseinu and thinking that such a concept exists is just a well intentioned bedieved attempt to metaher a sheretz.
I do not believe it is even optional to live in EY unless you are going with the express reason to take it upon yourself to elevate the kedusha of the land. Otherwise, you are in essence adding to the spiritual pollution of EY and it is the ruchnius equivalent of opening a dry cleaning shop in Tverya and throwing your used solvent in the Kinneret.
And the government gets in the way of that kedusha; just about everyone has to deal with it once they are there and I do not want to dirty myself. To live in EY as Reb Amram Bloy ZYA did is too difficult and impractical for anyone who is not on his level; if I could live that way in EY I would do so. Today’s kanoim are pathetic wannabes; violence against the government or another Jew is just as bad as what the memsheles zadoin does (and we all know about the Yasam, and how violent these descendants of Cossacks who emigrated to EY under the ridiculous law of return are.)
Those who are living there and desecrating the land will be vomited out the way some people vomit out the underdone shawarma former residents of EY sell on 13th Ave.
A state that does not recognize the fact that Hashem gave us the land, and does not act accordingly, allows the umois haoilam to say, as they are saying: “Listim Atem!” A G-dless state in EY is indeed a squatter state with no validity.June 24, 2009 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #649185rabbiofberlinParticipant
I was not going to comment on this whole web thread- too many lunatics around here but I’ll just say this- none of us knows the truth- you can argue till you are blue and green in the face- the medinah is here and jews are prospering there. there are problems, for sure, but at a certain moment in our history- a whole people was condemend to die in the desert…because they slandered eretz ysroel…
For now -the existence of the medinah is enough for me. Maybe in five hundred years- the view of the anti-zionists may prevail- till then, i’ll trust my eyes before trusting some lunatics.June 24, 2009 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #649186
PY, there is no “shayla”. Murder is murder. Premeditated murder (somebody ordered a hit, and someone else did it) is premeditated murder. Not a Jewish minhag.June 24, 2009 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #649187
What about Pinchas?June 24, 2009 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #649188aggadah99Participant
600kgbear: You need to exercise your ayin tova a little more. How many here are truly chilonim? what proportion of yidden here keep yom kippur to some extent as compared to the vast majority in the US? Things here just aren’t what they seem. Most people here are traditional and not lehach’is sinners.
What is more, who can deny that we’re living in the era of ikvot hamashiach? Wouldn’t you rather have a front row seat?June 24, 2009 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #649189
Lesschumras, good question. Check out Rashi in numbers 25:7. Pinchas followed halacha. If he didn’t confirm with Moshe, he would have been guilty of murder, like De Haan’s killers were.June 24, 2009 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #649190gavra_at_workParticipant
I find it very interesting that there are those who are willing to defend someone who in this day and age many Kanoim would say was Chayiv Misa and would have no problem with pulling the trigger themselves.
Perhaps the one who pulled the trigger was the Sheliach of HKBH, similar to the one who’s ladder broke & killed the one beneath?
Who knows. All I know is Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld (A REAL GADOL) approved of him, so what does that say for the Kannoim of our day? Perhaps it just proves his Teshuva, that he died “Al Kiddush Hashem” trying to save Yidden & bring about the will of the Gedolim. Or perhaps he deserved it, but had a Zechus.
Only HKBH knows, not us puny people.June 24, 2009 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #649191
If someone gets in the way of the mafia, they kill him. If there is a competitor to the mafia, they kill him. This is yadayim yedei eisav. I have a hard time believing that on an Orthodox discussion board there is a debate about lo sirtzach.June 24, 2009 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #649192
There is NO question that R’ Yaakov deHaan died al kiddush Hashem. My comments were only intended to show to just what depths of paranoia the Zionists had descended, because there was no physical way his mission could have succeeded against the comparative resources of the Zionists at the time.June 24, 2009 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #649193mdlevineMember
Jothar – take it to the next level answering lesschumras
1) he asked the question and received the answer from the Gadol Hador. the difference here was that the leader (Moshe) didn’t give an order or even encouragement rather he answered the question asked.
2) he went to get his spear – meaning that he wasn’t carrying a spear looking for a confrontation but know when to get it when appropriate. the difference here is that today many people carry their spears looking for a place to use it as opposed to going and getting it only when necessary
3) the halacha was in his favor, yet he was still called a pursuer and if someone stepped in to kill him as he approached Zimri, they would have also had the halacha on their side. Therefore if Pinchas was considered a pursuer (yet ultimately redeemed and promoted) and he had asked and received the halacha from Moshe, how much more so are those that received orders to kill from a prime minister with no Torah guidance considered murderers.June 24, 2009 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #649194
My front row seat is here, in the FSU, where I am part of a community that should not even exist after 70 years of Communism and 20 odd years of balagan, punctuated by the Nazi churban.
For me, moving to EY where it is so much easier to keep the Torah and Mitzvos than where I am is about the difference between the front row seats at HASC and the first row of the mezzanine.
As for the chilonim, and that is what they are – don’t kid yourself – what they are doing is the same as going into your kitchen and tarfing up your dishes with bosor vecholov while they are claiming to cook for a woman who just gave birth.
I know that the Arab bakeries do very well on Pesach and Yom Kippur. I also know that the pintele Yid and the yiras Shamayim that we inherited from Sinai causes people to realize that they should not tell a survey taker that they ate at a famous bakery in Jaffa (may it burn to a crisp and be replaced with a yeshiva) on Yom Kippur. In fact now a small crocheted yarmulka is part of the rapper style and does not even mean its wearer is in any way shomer torah umitzvos.
One small optional mitzvah is nothing against aveiros that are desecrating that which belongs to ALL of us and is NOT the property of the medine or its misleaders.June 24, 2009 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #649195Josh31Participant
Killing is not murder when 3 conditions are fulfilled. The person is a threat to yours or others lives; killing the person will actually alleviate the threat without creating an even greater threat; and there is no other way to remove that threat. Classical example is an armed robber who breaks into your house at night.June 24, 2009 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #649196
Thanks to Josh for putting it into perspective.
What kind of mishugeneh dimyon to the mafia. The mafia are a bunch of criminals trying to selflishly enrich themselves and steal. The Zionists were devoted to a noble purpose that of saving Jewish lives who had nowhere to go and were suffering one tragedy after another in the lands of their hosts. They wanted to do binyan haaretz and establish Jewish rule in EY after 2000 years of golus. What could be a nobler purpose than that? They were willing to go to war and give up their own lives and many did pay the ultimate price. In their minds if one can kill a British or Arab solider who was in their way (which they usually gae ample warning to clear out first), why should a Jewish traitor be any different.
Today the NK are harmless and only make silly rallies. But what if chas vshalom one of them would decide to spill state secrets to a foreign govt like Vanunu did? Then they would no longer be harmless demonstrators, and would be subject to far more severe repercussions. The entire nation would be calling for their heads, and there might be halachic justification for it. Again. I am not paskening anything. But when you act as a traitor to your people you put yourself in harms way.
Dehaan was trying to prevent the formation of the State of Israel, nothing less. He would have preferred British or Arab rule, which was totally unacceptable to many at that time. The Zionists were not out to change his life in any way. They do not supress chareidim any more than any foreign govt ever did throughout history. They were not endangering his lifestyle in any way.
Think about it, what is the worst they say about the Zionists? On one occasion they cut off the payos of Yemenite kids. That is the worst they ever did. Ashrei hador sheavonosov sefurim. Compare that to life under Chmielnicki, the Crusaders, the Nazis, etc. When the Nazis used their scissors on beards and payos, it was a lot more painful.
Give me a break already. How in the world would the Zionists have made life in the Old Yishuv worse than under the Turks or British or Arabs. They did a lot of good, in fact. For one thing, I don’t think anybody starved to death since they came into power, as happened in the Old Yishuv. Reb Aryeh lost a child to starvation. Let us be honest once and for all. How in the world can any rational person think we would be better off under foreign rule. One literally would have to be mishugeneh or a total fabricator of history to think otherwise. It is this nonstop chareidi propaganda and brainwashing which has literally destroyed the minds of thousands of kinderlach and poisoned them with hate. All the Zionists wanted to do was to establish a Jewish state with complete freedom of religion.
One last point, this parking garage business is of course a terrible example of Zionist undermining of Torah in the eyes of many here. But let’s step back a minute. Even if the garage was kept open as originally planned, was anybody forced to be mechalel Shabbos? It is only for those who choose to drive. Not one chareidi was being asked or forced to drive. The govt even asked a shaila, and was told by chareidi parties it was ok. So let’s assume it was wrong, but did they force chilul shabbos on anybody, as did the Russians who drafted the Steipler and made him do rifle practice on Shabbos. Are the Zionists worse than the Russians? That is only the smallest example. So what in the world did Dehaan have to lose by having the Zionists running the state as compared to any other foreign power. Absolutely nothing. His life and that of the chareidim would not have been impacted in any way, and they still are left alone.
Finally, Kilobear mentioned the recent tshuvah movement. Well what in the world do you attribute that to? It is because so many Jewish kids take a year off and go to learn in Israel before college, or go for a summer or a trip, and are inspired to learn more about their roots and yiddishkeit. And when they come back, they tell their friends and set up shuls and schools, etc. Do you seriously believe that with the Arabs in charge of EY we would see this renewal? It is such total sheker that even with all the flaws and imperfections of the current govt, that any other foreign govt would be better. Say you disagree with the lack of Jewish education in the Israeli schools which is definitely a problem. Well how much Jewish education would the British or Arabs offer in the public schools? So no matter how much you complain, you are no worse off under the Zionists, but if you make a little effort, you can probably count a hundred ways in which you are better off.June 24, 2009 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #649198
So PY, Rav Yosef Chaim Sonenfeld ZT”L and the other gedolim wanted to kill Jews, while the Zionists loved Jews so much they had to kill them? “You only hurt the ones you love”.June 24, 2009 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #649199
There was a time when a year in EY was the beginning of tshuva. Nowadays, I know far more kids who go OTD after time spent in EY than become frum. My friend spends days and nights with these kids and tries to bring them back or at least keep them away from Kikar Tzion and the like.
And yes, I believe that if we had gotten access to EY without the medine, that we would be able to experience the true kedusha of EY and that we would all be better off. For whatever reason, that is not what happened.
Justifying the murder of Yaakov deHaan HYD is totally beyond comprehension. DeHaan was acting only to try to prevent further defilement of the Land and conflicts with the Arabs. The plan he had may have been impractical, but it was hardly a threat to anyone. The Zionists, knowing deep down that they were wrong, just as the Mafia knows full well that it is an immoral organization, just wanted to show their power and rid themselves of any threat.
How dare you compare deHaan HYD and by extension Rav Zonnenfeld ZYA to an armed robber? The armed robbers were the Zionists, with their silly paramilitary forces, who brought danger upon the old Yishuv by bringing about tension with the Arabs and the British.June 24, 2009 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #649201
Some rabbis may be the ones who are davka letting their problem cases go to EY so as to be rid of them. I know full well the chinuch system is badly in need of repair – but two wrongs do not make a right.
EY does not help these kids unless they happen to be sent to a remedial program or end up in the good hands of someone like my friend. In some cases, they fall in with OTD children of olim and end up staying in EY – on Kikar Crack or in rehab.
However, I know of quite a few cases where kids, usually modern but strong modern, ended up OTD in E”Y. The reasons would take me hours to discuss for some of the cases whom I knew personally. But one of these reasons most certainly was exposure to secular Jewish culture that was being presented as an alternative to Torah chas vesholom. And that reason pertained davka to a kid, an activist in Bnei Akiva in his home city, whom I saw fall with my own eyes.
When you live among goyim, you know you are am Segula and you know who you are and why you are. It was no coincidence that I was listening to “Sheloi Asani Goy” on my walk home from shul as I was passing a goyish wedding hall. I had to turn my head sideways and look at the (polluted Dnepr) river for shmiras eynayim because some very pritzusdige and prust female guests were out getting fresh air.
But what of the boy, half my age and without my experience in life, who passes a typical frei wedding party in EY? The music is in Hebrew and he understands it; he may even hear a familiar song from a crossover artist like Haim Israel or Gad Elbaz being sung. If he is strong, then he knows that while he should not think “sheloi asani goy”, he should remember that Hashem was hivdilanu min hatoim and these people don’t understand that. If he is weak, or even has a moment of weakness, he can be drawn into the music and the openness and that can be the beginning of his fall L”A.
When you live among Yidden doing everything wrong and building a society based on that wrong superseding Torah, it takes a lot of strength to withstand the temptation to sink.
Not everyone has that strength. Those who don’t will fall, because when the highest kedusha is mixed with the lowest klipa, it becomes the equivalent of my infamous lye cake where the klipa infects and dissolves anyone who consumes it along with the kedusha. And not everyone can tell that the lye cake, which does have one cup of cocoa powder and one cup of sugar besides the lye, is not a sweet chocolate cake.
(and if you are sick of hearing about lye cakes, another moshol is a cup of Coke mixed in with a cup of Coke lookalike Hercules Clobber – Google it if you don’t know what it is but the name says it all.)June 24, 2009 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #649202
you still haven’t answered how you’ve been able to termine the numbers and nature of religious zionists, or “In fact now a small crocheted yarmulka is part of the rapper style and does not even mean its wearer is in any way shomer torah umitzvos “. So, now you’ve also slandered evry frum Jew who wears a crocheted kippa. I believe you said you live in the FSU (former Socet Union? ). If that is the case,where are the studies and sources that form the basis of your “facts”?June 24, 2009 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #649203
I agree that Pinchas’s action was sanctioned. But is also means that murder and klilling can be a Jewish minhag ( even if it is sanctioned, it’s still murder )June 24, 2009 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #649204
I cannot believe that I write so unclearly as to suggest that a knitted kippa wearer is assumed to be not religious right off the bat. Everyone knows that this is not the case. I am only saying that there are many in EY who do not have chezkas kashrus and that some wear what can be mistaken as a religious symbol. I could tell you in a moment who is real and who isn’t.
Anyone who can read can easily find out about the recent great failures of Religious Zionism, the first being the Yigal Amir debacle and the second being Gush Katif. The first led the left wing of RZ to become “kippot zerukot” and the second cemented the rise of the “chardal” faction, who are basically charedim of different dress who remain in their old world for social reasons and really follow a sort of Chassidus/Kabbalah based hashkafah. Their rebellion against the failures of the state is to go to the hilltops and resist state attempts to throw them out of their homes.
They reject Hatikva, and their song is mine as well.
It is Hashem Hu Malkeinu, to which I wake up every morning. Our version is sung not by the clowns who call themselves NK today, but by former paratrooper Meir Ariel, who is now close to the Chabad activists that are involved with the hilltop youth and Chevron.
The difference is that I would be just as happy to hear it in Hungarian pronunciation by a legitimate performer, whereas they might have a bit of trouble understanding such an arrangement. Oh, wait, I did hear it that way on a mainstream dance album, one more indication of which way the wind is blowing.June 24, 2009 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #649205Josh31Participant
“to try to prevent further defilement of the Land”
For a Jew to bar another Jew (religious or not) fleeing oppression from entering the land of Israel for this reason is murder.
If the Jew doing the barring is in Israel then he also defiles the land with murder.June 24, 2009 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #649206bein_hasdorimParticipant
lesschumras: I am not referring to earlier posts
just want to understand your question,
In ur opinion Is killing a murderer, murder?
or is it cleansing our world of evil?June 24, 2009 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #649207squeakParticipant
PY, I believe the Haganah were Zionists. Avonosum sefurim?
’nuff said.June 25, 2009 12:09 am at 12:09 am #649208
And to do what the Zionists did in the maabarot is spiritual murder. The architect of that churban was none other than a largely forgotten Zionist bureaucratic cipher by the name of Yaakov Sarid OLBM. His son is the notorious Yossi Sarid.
Besides, the Zionists played favorites with the visas they did have, so that according to the hepech haTorah views posted above they were murderers indeed.
Any speculation about deHaan HYD and the nature of his mission, or its chances for success is just that. Objective accounts show that his chances were nil, and that he was a bit of a character to put it mildly. And he was trying to prevent further Jewish bloodshed at the hands of the Arabs, who at one time could have been negotiated with to allow for some sort of Jewish settlement with no real sovereignty.
DeHaan had no power to do anything. He was a shtadlan who was trying to save Jewish lives in a Torah way. The Zionists with their chutzpah and gaava felt themselves above Torah chas vesholom and wanted to show they were boss. So, they resorted to murder. Shows who the armed robbers invading the land really were. Human beings negotiate. Gangsters resort to murder.
The murder of Jacob deHaan HYD is a true fact.
So is the murder of the Altalena crew, who at least had true ahavas eretz Yisroel even if it was guided by secularism of Jabotinsky and not Torah. Begin, the commander of the Irgun, had some connection to Avinu shebashamayim according to any biographies I have read. In fact his retirement from public view and descent into depression at the end of his life shows his regret for his many mistakes while in office. Not a tzaddik, to be sure, but far above any other of the misleaders when it came to personal standards of decency and at least some connection to the Jew he really was.
The Labor/Haganah crowd were pure secularists and defilers of the Land. And don’t tell me about the few token religious Haganah fighters. They prove nothing.June 25, 2009 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #649209anonymouse1079Participant
hoods- Why did the jews have to take israel over in palistine the yidden were frum the arabs were quite and everything was calm
What gives you this impression? 1929- massacre of about 70 Jews in Chevron, 20 in Tzfat and several more in Gush Etzion.
This is only one instance of Arab violence pre-StateJune 25, 2009 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #649210
While I am not sure that I accept this explanation and have no time to research it, there are those who blame the 1929 riots on a Zionist’s ill-timed and ill-advised visit to the Kosel.
However, there is no question that the Zionists provoked the Arabs in many instances. The old Yishuv had no real problems with the Arabs.
But most of all, keep in mind this well known dialogue between an Arab terrorist and his Jewish jailer (all is very loosely paraphrased):
Terrorist sees his jailer eating pita on Pesach: Aren’t you not supposed to do that now?
Jailer: I don’t care about this.
Terrorist: As long as you don’t care, we will win.
Or, my story:
When I was in EY in Shvat 5766, I davka walked through what would be considered risky parts of Y-m on my way to the Kosel (actually the Tzemach Tzedek shul for Shacharis and then the Kosel for Mincha). Running late as usual, I got kind of worked up and started to subconsciously walk to the rhythm of the Arabic music in the shuk. I even thought to myself that if I were Chaim Israel, I could set Yigdal to one of those tunes. Catching myself and realizing it was Shabbos and I had no business paying attention to music, I thought to myself: “Here are veiled ladies, here is real Middle Eastern music. Here are people who are proud of their culture and their faith, garbage though it may be. On Ben Yehuda, they’re wearing practically nothing and listening to Britney and Whitney. Oy, what is going to happen here?!”June 25, 2009 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #649211
Murder is murder unless you know it’s not. Murder isn’t some tzava’ah of Rabbi Yehuda Hachasid or a chumra based on a diyuk of the Pri Megadim in the Shach. It’s one of the 10 Commandments, a yehareig ve’al yaavor. I am still incredulous that on an Othodox forum, people are defending murder.
I am not saying everyone who called himself a Zionist is a murderer. Rav Kook ZT”L was no rotzeach. But let’s not ignore the sins of the secular Zionists and their attempts to create a “New Jew”, a nation like every other, merely because some religious factions use the term “Zionist” as well.June 25, 2009 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #649212
Interesting article I just saw:
Registration for marriage includes determining whether or not both the bride and groom are Jewish according to Orthodox criteria. Only Jews are permitted to marry in the Rabbinate.
Otherwise, the directives do not empower a rabbi from one city to register a resident of another. Also, every couple is obligated to pay a marriage tax to their local religious council that helps fund services offered in their city.
However, for many years, charedi rabbis of several localities – including Rechovot, Petach Tikva, Ashdod and Beer Sheva – have refused to automatically accept the Jewishness of converts converted by the Conversion Authority, which is headed by Chief Sephardi Rabbi Rav Shlomo Amar.
In a recent conference in Yerushalayim organized by Eternal Jewish Family, a charedi organization pushing for a more stringent supervision of the conversion process, several charedi city rabbonim declared they would not register converts converted by the Conversion Authority, which operates under the auspices of the Chief Rabbinate.
These rabbonim said they would insist on scrutinizing every convert, no matter where his or her conversion was performed.
The interrogation is meant to determine that the convert embraced an Orthodox lifestyle. Those who have not might not be recognized as Jews.
These charedi rabbis, following in the footsteps of the gedolei hador,including Maran Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, have declared that anything less than a full acceptance of Torah and shemiras hamitzvos at the time of conversion followed by concrete proof of adherence to a Torah lifestyle after the conversion renders the conversion invalid. Many converts who refuse to submit to the scrutiny of charedi city rabbis are unable to marry in Israel.
In contrast, Zionist city rabbis unquestioningly recognize conversions performed by all reputable Orthodox conversion courts. They have been stepping in to help these converts.
However, this directive has been ignored and haredi city rabbis have continued to appropriate the authority to investigate the authenticity of the conversion before registering a convert for marriage.
According to attorney Mordechai Eisenberg, head of the Movement for Fairness in Government, a watchdog group specializing in religion-state issues, said it was unrealistic and unfair to expect rabbis to compromise their halachic opinions.
A bill backed by Chairman of the Knesset Law Committee David Rotem (Yisroel Beiteinu) might solve the problem by empowering every city rabbi to register converts regardless of their place of residence.
Efrat Chief Rabbi Shlomo Riskin said that while it was true that conversion was a serious process that included the acceptance of the commandments, in Israel the reality was different from in the Diaspora.
According to Riskin, there are two aspects to conversion. The religious aspect entail acceptance of an Orthodox lifestyle. But the second aspect of conversion, which is symbolized by tevilah, is national.
[he or she]
There are about 300,000 immigrants from the former Soviet Union who are not Jewish according to Orthodox criteria but who have integrated into Israeli society.June 25, 2009 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #649213
There is a new book by Aaron Klein called the Late, Great State of Israel. Quote from a review of the book:
So much for their saving of Jewish lives. Until Moshiach comes, they, as the government in power, are the ones responsible for the safety of the Jews in Eretz Yisroel. If they are giving everything back but trying to negotiate usage rights (EG the Western Wall), what did they accomplish more than De Haan?
During the Six-Day War, Rav Shach ZT”L prayed for the success of the IDF, even knowing that it would result in “Kochi ve’otzem yadi”, since that result would result in the least amount of Jewish lives lost. And that is why one must pray for the success of the IDF, since it results in Jews being saved. But the Nationalistic will that created secular Zionism is no longer there. The state is self-destructing. While I do not love the Zionist state, I do love the Jews in it. I can’t pray for the medina but I can pray for Acheinu Kol Beis yisroel. Ayom Venora.June 25, 2009 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #649214
Very well said, Jothar. There are accounts that Reb Yoilish cried for the soldiers in 1967 as well. No one except perhaps the Teheran crowd is anti-Zionist for any reason other than ahavas am Yisroel and true ahavas (kedushas) Eretz Yisroel. Such heartfelt ahavas chinam was what motivated the “only true kanoi”, Reb Amram Bloy ZY”A, and in the end, he won his battle. The Edison Theatre which he picketed for Shabbos violations is or will soon be a Satmar housing and educational complex. It faces, either directly or diagonally IIRC, the former super-secular Lemel School, which is now a Boyaner moisad of chinuch al taharas hakoidesh.
I would love to read the Aaron Klein book. Sounds like we share a similar premise – namely that it would have been great had the state worked out properly, but unfortunately it didn’t, and the main concern is to save and preserve the Jews living there, both physically and spiritually.June 26, 2009 12:40 am at 12:40 am #649216rabbiofberlinParticipant
jothar- what was your purpose in quoting the article from the Jpost? from your other posts, i assume that you espouse the exterme chareidi view on this. The facts are, however, that halacha is on the side of the meikilim.if you care for sources, I’ll be happy to provide them.
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