December 28, 2011 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #931267
“(provided it isn’t against halachah)”
But Zumba is against halacha; that’s the point.
“Variety is the spice of life”, goes the expression. That does not mattir wife-swapping CH”V. (It’s like wanting to be cultural and modern so – completely contrary to Rav JB’s wishes, too – we trample on the Torah and attend Broadway shows to do so.)
But that’s not the point; Zumba is anyways not uniquely “marriage-enhancing” any more than any other aveira and/or a muttar form of exercise might be.
Music is an expression of the soul. There is no way listening to that kind of music (Latin) is good for your neshama. And I’d be embarrassed if anyone I knew went to Zumba.December 28, 2011 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #931268Feif UnParticipant
HaKatan: No, Zumba is not against halachah. I know that my Rav told me he thinks the ban is ridiculous. It’s just another pointless chumrah brought about by some kanoi who put pressure on some Rabbonim.December 28, 2011 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #9312692scentsParticipant
Where is Zumba located? Africa?December 28, 2011 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #931270matsav20Member
if somebody looks zumba like a “sport” , a dance , (like sport) …. i think there is no problem with tznius and halacha but if its more that its probably a little problem of tznius because i think its not “very kosher” as dance…its little provocant …(like some other dance ) …
but i’m not a possek halacha …
ask your Rav /Rebetzein or someone you can discuss with about that …December 28, 2011 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #931271zahavasdadParticipant
I know of some ORTHODOX Shuls that have Zumba ClassesDecember 28, 2011 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #931272ill_be_strongParticipant
I’m sitting and reading this (which i hardly do) and thinking to myself:
Hashams design of opposite gender gravitation -across all living things- (to prevent living things to cease to exists within 100 or so years) has to be the most absolutely fascinating creation and philosophy, its pretty amazing. But i’m still having a hard time in trying to understand the reason for cells with half the chromosomes, A different design (such as Parthenogenesis) does exists.
Ma Rabu Maasecha Hashem!December 28, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #931273matsav20Member
me too. i know some shuls that have Zumba classes. (only for women obviously not male/female together )
but i think its a personnal problem and its depend of everyoneDecember 28, 2011 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #931274
Es Chataei Ani Mazkir Hayom. Seeing is believing. I went on-line to assess the Zumba exercise class and determined that it is clearly no different than any other vigorous exercise. Naturally, in a frum environment, you would not have men in the class; but you can say that about any exercise class. I have seen far worse moves by young yeshiva fellows in men’s circles at weddings. In fact, I would say that many of the Yeshiva Boys Chior movements comes right out of Zumba. I only wish that I had the koach for such leibedekeh exercise. So let’s find some real znius issues to expend our energies.December 29, 2011 12:15 am at 12:15 am #931275ultimateskierMember
if you think that zumba isn’t tznius how is that different than working out in general? don’t think of it as slutty dancing but rather just a REALLY good way to burn calories. I do zumba and seriously it doens’t affect me in any way other than losing weight! if its an all womens class there can’t be anything wrong with it. if you’re gonna get into the technacalities of the danicing then you should probably start bashing every other type of class and dance in existance.December 29, 2011 1:52 am at 1:52 am #931276
I really don’t know what this Zumba is and I’m not going online to look at the moves to see if they aren’t Tzinus.
But those that claim that the moves aren’t Tzinus and the reason it’s Mutter is because it’s an all women’s class, so you wouldn’t have a problem if women learn and do belly-dancing in class, right?December 29, 2011 4:16 am at 4:16 am #931277
Feif Un, with all due respect to both your Rav and you, given your sub-title of “Proudly Modern-Orthodox” and also not knowing who your Rav is, it is safe to assume your Rav’s opinions are most likely not halachicly relevant to non-MO Torah-observant Jews.
Non-Jewish music of any sort (other than Classical, perhaps) is problematic on a number of levels, and, how much more so, music that was specifically intended to be sensual is clearly not something for a Jewish neshamah to imbibe and assimilate.
But since MO proudly attends Broadway shows, MO is not, unfortunately, in this case, working with the same baseline as Traditional Orthodoxy. So there doesn’t seem to be what to discuss with MO on this issue as this is one of the areas where they allow their misguided (according to Rav JBS, too) pursuit of secular culture to trump the Torah, CH”V.
cherrybim and ultimateskier:
1. As is well known, we are living in an increasingly decrepit and morally bankrupt society, one that in NY actually legalized toeiva marriage despite the terrible psychological risk this poses to the innocent children in these relationships, to say nothing of the toeiva itself. All of this affects everyone to at least some extent. So just because Orthodox shuls do something, that doesn’t mean it’s right.
2. Nobody said YBC dances are muttar either. And just because you don’t, personally, think of Zumba as “slutty”, doesn’t mean it’s not. And just because you think it doesn’t affect you (even if you are really correct in that notion), that doesn’t mean it won’t affect anyone else.
3. All-women’s pole-dancing is obviously (I hope) not considered muttar even though it’s all women and it’s vigorous exercise. So an exercise certainly can have something wrong with it even if it’s all women.December 29, 2011 4:30 am at 4:30 am #931278
HaKatan: Your opening statement is divisive, disgusting, and reeks of Sinas Chinam. Just because someone may or may not be “MO” (whatever that even means to you anyway), their potentially vast Halachic knowledge is inherently irrelevant. I am very strongly being Moche your blatant Sinas Chinam.December 29, 2011 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #931279
music that was specifically intended to be sensual is clearly not something for a Jewish neshamah to imbibe and assimilate.
In all fairness, why not?
Everything has sparks of Kedusha (a Chassidish concept). There is no reason why “sensual” music can not be used towards service of the Ribbono Shel Olam.
(Personally, I agree with those (Sam2) who say you are way out of line. It is also my personal opinion that dancing with poles or similar should not be done in public (nothing to do with Tznius, see my earlier posts in this thread). However, in private with one’s spouse then Tavo Alehem Bracha. It is no different than the Takanas Chazal regarding perfumes.)December 29, 2011 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #931280
“It is also my personal opinion that dancing with poles or similar should not be done in public”
Nor dancing with Chechs, Slavs, Brits, or Danes.December 29, 2011 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #931281
“so you wouldn’t have a problem if women learn and do belly-dancing in class, right?”
I’d have a big problem if it were in a Tanach class.December 29, 2011 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #931282mytakeMember
I sometimes do dances that are obviously meant to be provocative, if performed among men. I also sometimes listen to non-jewish music. This isn’t a confession, btw, there’s a point coming…
Being a good dancer and someone who really enjoys music doesn’t make things easier. But at least my sensitivities aren’t dulled to a point where I don’t see anything wrong with it. There is a reason why I would be shocked beyond words if I saw the wife of our Rav dancing like that, or listening to non-jewish music. And I hope one day I will be strong enough to stop doing both.
All I’m saying is, if you find it hard to stop, trust me, I get it. But don’t pretend that there’s no problem with it.December 29, 2011 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #931283
“It is also my personal opinion that dancing with poles or similar should not be done in public”
Nor dancing with Chechs, Slavs, Brits, or Danes.
😉December 29, 2011 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #931284
“I would be shocked beyond words if I saw the wife of our Rav dancing like that”
I would be shocked beyond words if I saw our Rav playing golf, but that doesn’t mean that there is anything wrong with it.December 29, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #931285
so you wouldn’t have a problem if women learn and do belly-dancing in class, right?
Why not? And she can dance for her husband in the privacy of their own home. Or is that a problem for you as well?
The WolfDecember 29, 2011 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #931286
Although you probably meant it differently that I understand it, I agree with your statement that “just because someone may or may not be “MO” (whatever that even means to you anyway), their potentially vast Halachic knowledge is inherently irrelevant.”
This is true. The greatest talmid chacham in the world is capable of doing aveiros and also of being biased. And if such a person is mattir one or more aveiros due to his ideological bias, then it’s quite understandable that he would also be mattir a different issur due to that same ideological bias. Again, I wrote this and the above with all due respect to him, as indicated. I was sincere in that respect and equally sincere in its irrelevance to the topic at hand.
I felt the need to *respectfully* but unequivocally explain away this chilul Hashem that a Torah authority allegedly permitted this nivalah. In truth, by chilul Hashem, “Ain cholkim kavod laRav”, but I tried to be cholek kavod regardless and explain that it’s likely an ideological bias that could cause one to issue such a psak, yet with all due respect to his potentially vast Torah knowledge.
So I’m sorry you feel offended. But what is truly “disgusting” and “divisive” is when some who claim to be orthodox choose to trample on our Torah in the misguided pursuit of base and decrepit secular culture. Especially since your own Rav JBS said so himself that one should *avoid* secular culture if at all possible. Yet you proudly proclaim your religious pursuit of secular culture even when such pursuit is clearly kineged halacha.
What about the rest of it which is not Kadosh? Sensual music could, theoretically, be used to serve Hashem, as you posit. But sensual music created in tumaah without that requisite kedusha cannot. It reminds me of “Lama li rov zivcheichem amar Hashem”.
Regarding your second point referencing my point about pole dancing and your bringing up perfume, perhaps this will help explain it.
Say there were a perfume that was heavily and solely marketed to zonas. And for years, ever since its introduction, everyone who smells that perfume knows that the wearer is a zona. Not a businesswoman nor anything other than a zona.
Say some guy decides he likes the scent and buys it for his wife. Lets grant that he doesn’t want his wife to be a zona, but is buying it lisheim mitzva. But here is the problem. The brain knows this is a zona’s perfume. So there’s no way that improper thoughts will not go through his (and her) mind if she wears that perfume, even if the overwhelmingly vast majority of those thoughts will be pure.
The only exception to this is if he (and she), personally, *never* knew that this perfume is a zona’s perfume. Then, it would serve its purpose appropriately as it is, after all, only perfume.
The same goes for pole dancing.
The problem with Zumba, however, unlike the above hypothetical perfume and pole dancing, is that no such prior knowledge is needed for the music to negatively affect you. Music, as I wrote earlier, is the language of the soul. Again, you don’t need to have prior exposure to anything to be negatively affected by impure music. Nothing can save you from being negatively affected by impure music, other than not listening to it.
And the Zumba dances, too, if they were choreographed to be sensual, then that’s certainly inappropriate in public, as written above (even *if* the ultimate purpose is to enhance one’s individual relationship between man and wife).December 29, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #931287
cherrybim -“so you wouldn’t have a problem if women learn and do belly-dancing in class, right?”
“I’d have a big problem if it were in a Tanach class.”
Ok, that’s nice; but would you have a problem if women learn and do belly-dancing in a dancing class?December 29, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #931288
MyTake made an excellent point, and I commend her for trying to reach out to those who are trying to be mattir issurim, and you chose to ruin its effect with an inane remark.
No, you would not be “shocked beyond words” to see your Rav playing golf in anywhere close to the same degree as you would be if she saw a rebbetzin engaged in this nivalah.
More precisely, you would not be “shocked beyond words at how terrible it is” for your Rav to play golf. But she would be if she saw a Rebbetzin engage in this nivalah.
The koach of the yetzer hara is truly awesome. She is telling you that she has the sensitivity to appreciate that it’s wrong, and she understands it is hard to stop, but you make light of the whole thing and deny it outright so that people should go on thinking it’s perfectly okay to engage in this nivalah.
It is wrong. It is inappropriate. It is assur.December 29, 2011 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #931289
Let’s not say and call it even?
Let’s say the wife wants to be sensual for her husband? Then using sensual props, even if they are used by non Jews, or even if the husband or wife knows about them via non Jewish methods, is Kadosh V’Tahor. This is by very definition, as it increases Kurva between husband & wife.
So in your example, if the wife wore the perfume to attract her husband, that is an act of Kedusha. Whether the perfume is used by Zonos or not, whether the perfume is attracting because Zonos use it or not, is irrelevant. (of course, this should not be done in public, as we agree). Now if it makes him think of someone/thing external to the marriage (such as a specific Zonah or Perutza) that is a different issue, and I would agree with you (as that is not enhancing Kurva).
Of course, ask your LOR, and YMMV. Gur need not apply.December 29, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #931290
HaKatan: What you imply is pure Apikorsus and is Megaleh Ponim Batorah. No one should have an “ideological bias” when making Halachic decisions. That is the problem with today’s “Hashkofos”. People let it override Halachic considerations. Why can’t you even consider the possibility (which I would assume is true; otherwise people should not follow this Rav) that maybe he thinks that this isn’t a violation of Halacha? It has to be that if he thinks something is Muttar that you think is Assur that he has ideological differences which affect his understanding of Halacha? Come on. That is disgusting, not-Jewish, and destroys the validity of Torah, the Mesorah, and Halacha. Ideological considerations never should and never do influence Halacha, either Lehakel or Lehachmir. Saying either of those is complete Apikorsus.December 29, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #931291oomisParticipant
But she would be if she saw a Rebbetzin engage in this nivalah.”
And your proof that this is a “nevalah?”December 29, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #931292
Wolf -“Why not? And she can dance for her husband in the privacy of their own home. Or is that a problem for you as well?”
I won’t respond to you until you ask EEES (your wife) her opinion about Frum women belly-dancing! Then we will discuss it.December 29, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #931293
I won’t respond to you until you ask EEES (your wife) her opinion about Frum women belly-dancing! Then we will discuss it.
In private and for their husbands? I’m sure she’d be for it if that was what they wanted.
Nonetheless, I’ll ask her if it will make you feel better – and then we’ll discuss.
The WolfDecember 29, 2011 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #931294
OK, now you’ve raised the ante. A husband and wife can be as affectionate as they want to be or need to be in their own private moments. Just as the Torah testifies that Yitzchok was “m’tzachek es Rifka”, without details; so too we need not get into details of husband-wife affections and relationships… whether it’s uncovering her hair in her husband’s presence, or singing for him, or dancing with him, or anything else…hakol mutar. No tznius police in the private domain of married couples.December 29, 2011 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #931295
I won’t respond to you until you ask EEES (your wife) her opinion about Frum women belly-dancing! Then we will discuss it.
OK, I’ve asked Eees. She has no problems with women learning belly-dancing to be used in the privacy of their homes with their husbands (if taught in an all-female class).
Now, please answer my question as you agreed. Is this a problem for you?
The WolfDecember 29, 2011 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #931296
whether it’s uncovering her hair in her husband’s presence, or singing for him, or dancing with him, or anything else…hakol mutar. No tznius police in the private domain of married couples.
Ah, I seem to remember that there was once one poster on these boards who made it a point to say it wasn’t “hakol mutar.” The specific example he used was mixed swimming (even in private) was forbidden.
The WolfDecember 29, 2011 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #931297
That was not me.December 30, 2011 12:07 am at 12:07 am #931298
The Wolf -“OK, I’ve asked Eees. She has no problems with women learning belly-dancing to be used in the privacy of their homes with their husbands (if taught in an all-female class).
Now, please answer my question as you agreed. Is this a problem for you?”
That wasn’t the question. Ask her if she doesn’t think there is a problem to learn belly-dancing just for exercise (all female class), nothing to do with the husband?
Then we will discuss.December 30, 2011 5:01 am at 5:01 am #931299
I agree that just because the goyim breathe and do lots of other things, that doesn’t forbid us from doing the same, B”H. But if something will cause someone to think of forbidden things, as I wrote in my hypothetical perfume example and as is the reality with pole dancing for many people, then we agree that it is forbidden, as you wrote.
So I feel that Zumba is problematic for a number of reasons including this one. If you don’t agree that Zumba dances will cause a person to think inappropriate thoughts, then I respectfully disagree, though I do respect your opinion. But there are other problems with Zumba as noted above, principally the music and the public sensuality, and probably, for those reasons, uvichokoseihem lo seleichu as well.
I would quote to you “kol haposel, bimumo posel”, but we’ll leave that issue aside, I guess.
Please explain to me how someone who identifies with an ideology, such as MO, will not issue piskei halacha in accordance with that ideology? That would be hypocritical, would it not? Are you accusing this Rav of being hypocritical?
Of course, if a Rav identifies as traditional Orthodox (of whatever stripe/faction) then if he issues a psak I disagree with, I still respect his psak as being 100% Torah-based. But not if he identifies with another ideology that de facto goes against the Torah as that ideology naturally will influence his psak. This is a dvar pashut and simple reality.
And I guess you’ve now raised it too far. The Mishna Berura in chelek Beis certainly does not agree with your contention that “hakol mutar”, though I certainly agree with no “tznius police” other than one’s self. For example, “Lo Yishte Adam BiKos Zeh viYitein Ainav BiKos Acheir”.
I’m sure many people would be interested in knowing who argues with the MB and claims “hakol mutar”, though. Please let everyone know.December 30, 2011 5:11 am at 5:11 am #931300
HaKatan: I am entirely rejecting your assumption that “MO” (the fact that this Rav is even “MO” is an assumption you are making based off a subtitle) bases their Halachos on anything other than Halachic sources. I am very strongly protesting your implications that “MO” is an ideology that in some (or any) cases overrides Halacha.
Oh, and the Rambam says that “Hakol Muttar”. And Pashtus in the Gemara in Nedarim is against the Chumros brought down in those Simanim in Orach Chayim.December 30, 2011 5:26 am at 5:26 am #931301yitayningwutParticipant
Sam2 – I think the Rema in EH goes like you. And I agree the Gemara in Nedarim is pashut not like the Mechaber in OC, and this should be obvious to anyone whoever learned the Gemara. Problem is the chumros in the Gemara are mentioned by the poskim anyway, for example a Tosafos I just learned in Niddah (12a). If I remember correctly the version in Maseches Kallah is a bit different and can shed some light here.December 30, 2011 5:32 am at 5:32 am #931302
Yitay: I never understood why or how the Mechaber brought down those Halachos. The earlier Rishonim almost all omitted them for a reason-namely, that they’re against P’shat in the Gemara. I’ve had almost that entire Siman as a Tzarich Iyun for years. I have no real answer, especially as the Mechaber brings them down as Halacha and not Chumra/Middos Chassidus.December 30, 2011 6:43 am at 6:43 am #931305
Yitay: I was unaware of that Tosafos. I’ll look it up. The Beis Yosef in that Siman in OC doesn’t bring down any Rishonim though. It’s one of the more puzzling Simanim I’ve seen. (Hello, if you’re reading this, I used the word “puzzling” instead of “weird” just for you. 🙂December 30, 2011 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #931306
I have our point of disagreement:
You believe that someone’s husband dancing with a pole in private for his wife will make the wife think of an exotic dancer.
I believe it will make her think of her husband.
I agree if it make him/her think of the worker then it should not be done.
You agree(?) that if it doesn’t, then it is Kadosh.
Shalom Al Yisroel!
P.S. The Steipler in his Iggeres for Chassanim basicly says that those simanim in SA are not applicable in this day and age. I’m not disagreeing with the point of “Kos Acher”, though.December 30, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #931307yitayningwutParticipant
Also look up the makor in Maseches Kallah (rabasi). I don’t have time now but I will do so myself over Shabbos, because if I remember correctly it was mashma from there that it’s not so pashut that the halacha is like the Chachamim (then again, the stam Gemara in Nedarim should still trump that).December 30, 2011 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #931308
Yes, I am assuming the Rav is also “MO” based on the sub-title. You can believe whatever you’d like about MO (which I believe you identify with), but the reality speaks for itself.
I happened to be in an MO school recently, and I saw something thin and light fall out of a young teenage girl’s pocketbook. Her classmate, a boy, casually joked (I hope it was a joke) to her “Was that a [male contraceptive]?” This is, of course, a crying shame on a number of levels, and this kind of thing just doesn’t happen in a traditional orthodox Yeshiva and is indicative of a larger underlying rot that occurs when Torah occasionally takes a back seat to secular culture. You can’t intelligently argue with facts. I’m really not interested in listing people’s “liberties”, so please look up the Beacon thread (I understand that’s not representative of your entire MO world, and neither is this story, but neither are they irrelevant) and others if you need further examples (you don’t).
The point I am trying to convey to a “Yeshiva World” audience is that just because someone claims his Rav said Zumba is muttar, that is to be taken completely differently if that Rav is MO because MO proudly takes liberties with halacha/hashkafa that traditional Orthodox does not. So unless you also wish to take those liberties, you are better off asking a non-MO Rav. It’s somewhat like if you ask a Satmar Chassid when the latest time for Mincha is. Your Rav will not allow you to daven that late, but his does. That’s the essential point (though I am not implying Satmar is taking liberties with Halacha, CH”V), and if you’re offended then I’m sorry but I still maintain what I’ve written as it is pashut uvarur.
Again, I respect his Torah and learning and attempted fidelity to halacha, but it is fantastical to presume his being MO will not affect his piskei halacha, as I explained above.
Yes to the (?), and Amein to Shalom Al Yisrael.December 30, 2011 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #931309
HaKatan: Just so we’re being clear, you believe that all “MO” are Apikorsim as they let an ideological bias override Halachah. That’s good to know.January 1, 2012 3:31 am at 3:31 am #931310
Sam2: You were the one who called them(/yourself) apikorsim, not I. First, I was speaking of rabbanim/poskim, not the hamon am. Second, please “don’t put words in my mouth” as I did not say nor do I believe any such thing.
To be clear, any posek/Rav who identifies as MO, assuming he is not schizophrenic, will likely issue psakim in accordance with MO shitos, as this is his ideology. Otherwise, he would seem hypocritical. Are you suggesting either of the above?
This is, again, pashut.
As to the issue at hand, I guess you’ve conceded the point(s) since your only response was a wild and unfounded accusation. Also good to know.January 1, 2012 4:15 am at 4:15 am #931311
HaKatan: I am trying to impress upon you that “MO Shitos” don’t exist based on an “MO ideology”. Such a thing would be Apikorsus, the same as Paskening “Chareidi Shitos” or “Yeshivish Shitos” based off of a “Chareidi ideology” or “Yeshivish ideology” and not based off of Halachah and Mesorah would be Apikorsus. There is no such thing as “MO ideology”. I will concede to you that many consider themselves “MO” while they aren’t completely Shomer Halachah. That doesn’t make “MO” an ideology which will Passul any P’sak given by an “MO” Rabbi or Posek.
Just curious, what do you mean when you say “MO”?January 1, 2012 5:45 am at 5:45 am #931312mddMember
I agree with with Sam2, that piskei Halocha may not be driven by ideology. It happens though both by the MO and the Chareidim.January 2, 2012 12:20 am at 12:20 am #931314Feif UnParticipant
HaKatan, you say “MO proudly takes liberties with halacha/hashkafa that traditional Orthodox does not”. You are completely wrong! If anything, Modern Orthodox keeps halachah the way it was kept for thousands of years! Chareidim have adopted countless chumros over the past 50 years or so that MO have not taken on.January 2, 2012 2:03 am at 2:03 am #931315
Hillel and the Rambam and even Rav Moshe were considered modern Orthodox by many of their contemporaries, so MO gedolim are in good company.January 2, 2012 2:08 am at 2:08 am #931316popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Hillel and the Rambam and even Rav Moshe were considered modern Orthodox by many of their contemporaries, so MO gedolim are in good company.
What is that supposed to mean? MO is a specific hashkafa, not a catch all for people you want to criticize.January 2, 2012 3:44 am at 3:44 am #931317squeakParticipant
Proud Modern Orthodox
You are completely wrong! If anything, Modern Orthodox keeps halachah the way it was kept for thousands of years!
Yes, but which thousands of years? And by whom? Care to be more sepcific?January 2, 2012 4:36 am at 4:36 am #931318
But you’re not being realistic. If you hold of the outdated (and, clearly in hindsight, now known to be mistaken) belief/ideology that Rav JBS proposed that traditional orthodoxy will become a museum exhibit so you must be more “modern” to survive as Torah Jews, and therefore you now do things that you otherwise would not do and klal Yisrael never did, then that mindset and practice is guaranteed to color your halachic opinions. Again, for at least the third time, this is pashut.
Practically speaking, MO means “compromise” in certain areas. It would seem that these can only be achieved by distorting and/or ignoring established halacha. You can call it apikorsus or whatever else you want to call it, but that’s your call. I, however, am interested in the facts on the ground, not to judge anyone else. So rather than damning anyone as an apikores, ch”V, I simply call a spade a spade and say that since MO ideology allows for “compromise” that means that an MO Rav will issue an MO psak and that the psak may not be appropriate for a traditional orthodox Jew.
This is the danger of “anything-orthodox” rather than just plain “orthodox” (i.e. traditional orthodox). Once you add something to the Torah, you’re bound to mess up and cross lines that you are not allowed to when there is ever a possibility for conflict between, liahvdil, the two parts. Rav JBS felt it was necessary then. Regardless of who agreed or disagreed then, it certainly is not necessary now and, as history continues to show, it is harmful for many people’s spirituality. That’s the reality, as recently shown by the Beacon incident.
By the way, this bias-in-psak applies not only to MO. If any Rav, of any stripe, has a particular weakness in a certain area, say honesty in mamonus, then it’s likely his psakim will inadvertently be colored by this too, unfortunately. But how much more so if the weakness is not a weakness but an intentional stance.
MO, as founded by Rav JBS, admittedly and intentionally (attempted to) change(d) the practice of orthodox Jewry. He spoke about it at length, and it is disingenuous of you to imply that MO is the “standard” when it is traditional orthodoxy that is the standard and MO is the (mistaken, in hindsight) experiment.
“Chareidi”/”Chassidic” Jewry is also a change, and I never claimed it is a positive one, but that is not the topic of this discussion. Notice, I compared MO not to Chareidi Judaism, but rather to traditional Orthodox, as in the way it was always done.
Again, I am not interested in discussing the liberties that MO takes, nor, as you point out (and I agree), the additional chumros that Chassidic Judaism has imposed. But MO is very certainly not the way things were always done; traditional orthodoxy is. That’s for sure.
In case this isn’t clear, I do not mean to imply, Ch”V, that a Rav of an MO community is any less respectable than one of a traditional orthodox community. But if that Rav agrees with MO changes to halacha then a traditional orthodox Jew should ask elsewhere if he wants psakim not colored by that ideology. Face the facts like a big boy: if you, the Rav, take halachic “liberties” nobody outside MO does then your psakim are colored by that. If you feel your liberties are at least muttar if not lichatchila then you have nothing to be ashamed of. If, however, you realize your liberties are certainly not lichatchila, then it should be understandable why traditional orthodox Jews should ask elsewhere.
Once again, the point of all this is that if an MO Rav says Zumba is muttar, then if you are traditional orthodox then you should ask your LOR and not rely on the psak as this is part of a broader area that MO and traditional orthodox do not agree on. No condemnations, et al. Just the facts.January 2, 2012 4:55 am at 4:55 am #931319QuestionForYouParticipant
The Chareidi way of life does not allow Torah violations such as mixed dancing, mixed swimming, women wearing pants & sleeveless tops, and married women with uncovered heads. Hillel, the Rambam, and Rav Moshe ZT”L did not allow these, either.
A husband and wife must act with modesty in front of Hashem, even when they are alone, because there are rules of the Torah that govern their behavior. They cannot do whatever they like.
ALL Jews, whether married or unmarried, must be aware that Hashem is watching their behavior, always.
“Shivisi Hashem L’Negdee Tamid – I keep Hashem before me, always.”
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