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AAQ, why is my argument modernishe? You will know that in current parlance the word ??????? means ‘engagement,’ but in Gemoro terms (and indeed in the Torah) it is a synonym for ???????. Do we need here as well ‘a good source to claim that we can easily reject [the Gemoro’s definition of ???????] and inject new meaning into it?’
And if someone was to say that nowhere in Shas do we find any mention of getting engaged or of an engaged girl, would you refute him from the many times the term ????? appears there?
As for the Gemoro in ???????, I don’t see anything for ?????? to get excited about.
AAQ, I restate my case: what the Gemoro means when it employs the phrase ??? ???? is irrelevant here. The ??? ???? in the ???? is not an alternative definition of our ??? ????; it means something else entirely. Words and phrases can have multiple, unrelated meanings. As for Kiddushin, the fact R’ Yochanan puts his Torah and his daughter(s) in the same sentence does not mean he’s leaning on his Torah authority. He’s not saying, “Since I am your Torah teacher, I have ??? ????, and I recommend you marry my daughter – you should listen to me.” He’s just saying, “You value and respect my Torah to the extent that you come and learn from me, yet you regard my daughter(s) as inferior?”
And for the same reason the Gemoro brought by provaxx is also irrelevant. There the people thought there was a halachic reason behind Rav Masnah requiring everyone to use his water. Yes, they showed great ????? ????? in accepting a ??? that would not have made sense to them, but that has nothing to do with ??? ????.
AAQ, I see that you are struggling to understand what I wrote, so I’ll explain it again. The concept of ??? ???? that we’re discussing is seeking the Torah’s guidance in life decisions (Avira) by conferring with a Torah expert on matters that do not relate to halacha or hashkafa (Rocky). Thus the Medrash that I brought is extremely relevant, as it tells us that people used to ask Rebbi Elazar ben Arach for advice on matters that do not relate to halacha – ??? ???? in action.
However, both the Gemoro in Kiddushin which you brought and the Gemoro in Chullin are totally irrelevant here. Nowhere in that Gemoro in Kiddushin does Rebbi Yochanan claim ??? ???? rights, as you put it. He simply said to Zeiri, “My Torah is good enough for you, but my daughters are not good enough for you?” As for the Gemoro in Chullin, if you really think your teacher meant to say that nowhere in Shas do we find ????? that teach us halacha, I am stunned that it took you until the end of Kiddushin to realise that Shas is full of halachic ?????. And I have no idea why you bring the Chasam Sofer.
You then say that “the apparent fact that some modern people use the expression differently is their problem, not [the] Gemora’s.” No, it’s YOUR problem if you’re conflating the two and trying to bring proof from a Gemoro that is totally irrelevant to the subject at hand.
Rocky and Avira, I’m not sure you’re arguing. Rocky defined ??? ???? as, “Conferring with a Torah expert on matters that do not relate to halacha or hashkafa.” Asking a talmid chacham business advice was only an example. Many of the examples Avira gave fit into this definition.
AAQ, thanks for the kind words about my posts!
Now, about the Gemoro in Chullin:
1) It isn’t a double reference, “da’as – da’as Torah.” The Gemoro is explaining a B’raisa which uses the word da’as, and the Gemoro is asking if da’as in the B’raisa means Da’as Torah. So the first ??? is part of the question, and not part of the phrase ??? ????. (This is the same mistake that appears on every ??? ????? which uses the phrase ???? ????. This phrase is a quotation from Sanhedrin 5a, but there too the first ???? is a question (can he pasken?) and the second is the answer. So a ??? ????? should really say ???? just once.)
2) The phrase does not refer to ????; rather, it refers to a ????: either the ? of ???? or the phrase ?????? ??? teaches us (according to Rebbi Yehuda) that the ????? ??? ???? only applies to the right sciatic nerve. So what makes you think your teacher was unaware of this Gemoro, seeing as it has nothing to do with the concept of ??? ???? that we’re discussing?Reb Eliezer, when did I say that ????? ???? is Pesach Mitzrayim? I said that the only ??? that took place before the ???? of ????? ???? was said was Pesach Mitzrayim.
@SQUARE_ROOT
The Gemoro to which you refer is in Chullin 90b; it’s in a discussion about the Gid haNosheh and has nothing to do with the concept of ??? ???? as it exists today.@ubiquitin
Exactly.However, saying there is no ???? for ??? ???? in Shas is not the same as saying there is no ???? for ??? ????. The ???? ????? (???? ???) on ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? reads as follows:
??? ??? ???? ?????, ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ?’ ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????????? ????????. ???? ??, ???? ???? ??? ???, ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????, ??? ?? ??? ????? ??????, ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???????. ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???, ????? ???? ?’ ??? ????, ??? ??? ?? ??? ?’ ??? ????.AAQ, it’s interesting that you draw a parallel between yourself and Shimon Ho’amsuni. As you will know, he was able to expound every ‘es’ in the Torah, until he reached one he couldn’t explain; at which point he retracted all of his ?????. The Gemoro (Kiddushin 57a et al.) ends the story by saying, “?? ??? ?’ ????? ????? ?? ?’ ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????”. In other words, Shimon Ho’amsuni’s initial position – that every ‘es’ has a ???? attached – was indeed correct! It’s just that he couldn’t think of a ???? for one of them; so it was left to Rebbi Akiva to uphold and validate his initial view by finding a ???? for that ??.
I think our case is indeed very similar. I agree with your initial position (based on the words of your teacher) that the concept of ??? ???? does not appear in Shas; and I fail to see how the Gemoro you quote contradicts this notion. The Gemoro simply says that Rebbi Yochanan wanted Ze’iri to marry his daughter, and tried to convince him to do so. How does this imply ??? ????? I’m sure there are many baalebatim who would like to see their daughter marry a top ????, and might try to persuade him if he was reluctant!
Why do you need to bring the Targum Yonasan to prove that the Jews were not oleh l’regel at ??? ?????? I mean, without the Targum Yonasan they simply stayed in Mitzrayim until the next morning, so they were certainly not ???? ????!
You then say that since ??? ????? were not ???? ???? at ??? ?????, no ???? was required. I suppose you mean that even according to the Minchas Chinuch ???? Tosafos that a regular ???? ??? requires ???? for it to be an obligation, ??? ????? is somehow different, and does not need the ownership of ???? for it to be a ????. So we agree that the ?????? could not have had a ???? regarding ??? ?????, since there is no need to have ???? for it to be a ????; and, if ???? ?????? had been written after ????? ????, they could not have had a ???? regarding any other ??? either! Which brings us back to your original ???? (which is really the ???? ?’s explanation of Rebbi Yitzchok’s ????): why could ???? ?????? not have been written after ????? ?????
So what have you answered exactly?
I thought you were trying to answer why the story of creation could not have put after ????? ????. To defeat the ???? of ??? for ??? ?????, it would have been sufficient to put it after ????? ????. The only ???? ??? that would not be covered by putting ???? ?????? after ????? ???? would be ??? ?????.
And anyway, the ?????? would not have had a ???? on ??? ????? for another reason as well: even according to the Minchas Chinuch ???? Tosafos that someone who doesn’t own ???? is also exempt from ???? ???, surely that ???? had not yet been given at the time of ??? ?????, seeing as it was before ??? ????. So how would the ?????? know this ???? if it had not yet been given?
I don’t see how that Chasam Sofer would apply to ??? ?????, when there was no ???? ???? anyway.
You’re right that the Minchas Chinuch indeed understands Tosafos like you, but that still doesn’t answer my second point: that even if someone is ???? from ???? ??? by reason of not having ????, he can still bring it as a ????! (Besides for this being stated explicitly by the ??? ??? to ????? ?? ?”?, it is also clear from Sanhedrin 11a, where we say that Beis Din make a leap year if people from Bovel are coming to Eretz Yisroel but have not yet arrived; ??”? explains this means they are coming ????? ??????. Surely these Babylonians did not all own land in EY; yet they were still coming ????? ??????!)
Reb Eliezer, Tosafos doesn’t mean that at all. Tosafos is not saying that someone who doesn’t own land in EY is exempt from bringing the ???? ???: as the ???? ???? points out, there is no ???? for saying this. Rather, as the ??”? explains, they are explaining why R’ Yehuda ben Beseira was not ???? ????; on that they answer that he was ???? from ???? ???? because he didn’t own land in EY, and so was automatically ???? from bringing the ???? ??? because he was nowhere near ??????? on ??? ???.
But even if you would be right that not owning land in EY is an exemption from the ???? of ???? ???, the ?????? would still not have a ????; as even then we could bring the ???? ??? without being ?????, just like someone who is ???? from ???? ???? can still choose to come.
Oh, and by the way, the ????? ?????? of Tosafos is not Me’eloho, but rather Mei’alyoh (from the tail).
@flyer
I just checked a fourth Chumash (????? edition), and this one does have the piece you are referring to. (Seems like they added it in.) It is a quote from the Divrei Dovid, the Taz’s ????? on ???? ??”?, who in turn is quoting something he saw as a boy in an old manuscript. And immediately afterwards, in square brackets, the copyist makes the same point I made: that this is definitely a ???? ?????? quoted by the ????? ??????.Interestingly, the ???? ???????? ???? brings this pshat (that Rebbi Yitzchok was Rashi’s father) from ?’ ????? ?????, author of Sefer Chassidim. (This was probably what the manuscript the Taz saw was based on.) Strangely, he says ???? ????? ??’ ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? (!) ?? ???? ??? (!) ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????.
@flyer
I’m not sure what you’re referring to. The first Sifsei Chachamim in the Torah reads as follows:
??????, ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??????? ????, (??? ?? ????? ????? ????), ?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??????.
As you can see, not a word about Rebbi Yitzchok being Rashi’s father.I even checked 2 other Chumoshim to make sure I wasn’t missing something, but they were identical.
Reb Eliezer, one doesn’t need to own land in EY in order to bring the Korban Pesach. One only needs to own land in Eretz Yisroel in order to be obligated in ???? ????. Even someone who doesn’t own any land in EY can choose to be ???? ????, and while he is there can bring a ???? ???.
Also, Reb Eliezer, if you reread your original post you will see that it is very confused and unclear. I don’t actually understand what you are trying to say. Please do yourself a favour and explain it more clearly. Specifically, I don’t understand why you bring the Gemoro in Pesochim, nor why you bring the ???? ?, (who as far as I can see doesn’t quote the Gemoro).
I couldn’t find anywhere in the Sifsei Chachomim that this Rebbi Yitzchok is Rashi’s father. But even if he (or someone else) does say it, with the greatest of respect it isn’t so. In actual fact, this statement of Rebbi Yitzchok appears in the Yalkut Shimoni on the possuk ????? ??? ??? in the name of the Tanchuma; indeed, it can be found in ?????? ??? here in ??????. See also Ramban on this Rashi who calls it an ????, a term he reserves for ????? ??”?.
When I say, “learn with a Rebbe,” I don’t mean attending a shiur. A shiur won’t help you at all with translation. What I mean is learning b’chavrusa with a Rebbe. You’ll be able to read and translate the Gemoro yourself; go at your own pace; and chazer the same Gemoro as many times as you feel necessary. Eventually the translations will stick. If you do this for some time, you might only have learnt a few blatt with a couple of chazoros, but your translation skills will have improved massively, and hopefully you’ll retain them for life.
Please don’t be offended, but you might find it helpful to learn with a Rebbe who can focus on translation with you.
A direct quote from the Wikipedia entry about Hesh Kestin: “He escaped being of the victims of the 1985 Rome and Vienna airport attacks carried out by the Palestine Liberation Organization in which 19 passengers and were killed (along with 4 terrorists), because he had been out drinking the night before and had failed to wake up in time to get to the airport.”
Says it all, really.
(Actually, why doesn’t he suggest drinking all night, every night as a way to avoid being attacked by terrorists…?)If the ‘bride’ and ‘groom’ did not tell the witnesses that they aren’t really getting married, then their intentions are ????? ???? and they are halachically married.