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Anything none2.0 says about depression should be taken very seriously. He definitely sounds like he is very depressed.
And is “Rav Yitzchok Ehrentreu” one of the Gedolim to which you refer?
Ujm, so why don’t you listen to these Gedolim and get off the Internet?
Rocky, when I read your contribution I was surprised for two reasons.
1) I never knew you were such a Talmid Chochom
2) I had never heard of any of these sources (besides the Mishna – which is totally irrelevant- and the Mishna Berurah) discussing this.So I looked them up.
And this is why you should never ask ChatGPT! Instead of artificial intelligence, all you get is artificial stupidity: NONE OF THESE SOURCES EXIST!!!
CHATGPT MADE THEM UP!Mezonos. If eating more than two, hamotzi.
ujm, who is Rav Yitzchok Ehrentreu? Never heard of him. Do you mean Rav Avrohom Ehrentreu? Or Rav Yankel Ehrentreu?
@DaMoshe, the introduction to the second chelek of Moreh Nevuchim consists of 26 philosophical tenets, which have nothing to do with this.
Thank you for helping me find the Riva. It’s quoted in the edition of ??? ????? ????? ???? printed in Offen in 1834.
If the Ramban quotes the Sifrei but limits it to the Great Sanhedrin, what makes you think he is arguing with Rashi?
And does anyone actually argue with the Sifrei?None2.0, at this point the only thing I can do is wish you a ????? ????? ?????.
@DaMoshe: Where is this Riva? Where is this Ramban? Where is this Rambam? Who questions the Sifre?
@Abba_S:
And by the way, doubtful ????? in a ???? ????? is ????, not ???.Mods, why are you letting none2.0’s kefirah through? Is this Yeshiva World News or Reform World News?
@Abba S
No, the hair would not have the same ????? as a ??. It’s ?????? ?”? which has the same ????? as a ????? (See Rambam ?”? ???? ???? ??????? ?”?).
I don’t think anyone’s chapped yet – the OP is a direct quote from Peirush Hamishnayos of the Rambam to Avos 4:5. So all those who are commenting about the writer’s style – be careful! It’s the Rambam’s style you’re talking about! And those who say the OP is kefirah full stop – better take it back quickly! And the reference about, ‘hanging their hats on maamorei Chazal they don’t understand,’ is the Rambam’s attack on Geonim and Rishonim, not an attack by the OP on Rav Aharon Kotler.
If you are quoting a Rambam, why don’t you say so?
??? ??????? ????????
@Red Adair and SACT5, thank you.
Why are cut fruit and vegetables a problem?
This is a very deep conversation, well above my pay grade.
Avira, you are contradicting yourself. Initially you said that even before R’ Yochanan met the ????? he knew that of course a man should do this; the ????? taught him that even a woman should do this. Now you’re saying, “we don’t learn anything specific about (sic) women from this story.”
The concept that a person should be ????? themselves to get more ??? is ???? the concept of ??? ??????: the ????? was teaching him that the more you are ???? the more ??? you get.Rav and R’ Yochanan did not discuss personally every ?????? that they had: Rav lived in ??? and R’ Yochanan lived in Eretz Yisroel. They weren’t aware of all each other’s teachings, ?????? from ??? ??? ??? (the story with R’ Yochanan and Rav Kahana.) Indeed, R’ Abba, who was R’ Yochanan’s ?????, had to ask the ??????? of Rav how Rav explained the ??????, because he didn’t know himself. That discussion is the source of the ??????, as is obvious from the ????.
After the ???? records the two ????? of Rav and Rebbi Yochanan, the ???? says ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??. This makes it very clear that the ?????? is based on Rebbi Yochanan holding that there is a concept of ??? ??????, and Rav holding that there isn’t.
Avira, Rashi in Sotah says, ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????. He doesn’t say ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????, but rather ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????. According to your “pshat,” Rebbi Yochanan did not need to learn this concept with regard to men from the ?????, as he already knew that.
As for your questions, this was not a hotly debated topic in the ??? ?????, nor was it a well-known ??????. The ????? came up with this ???? herself, and Rebbi Yochanan accepted it. He had not discussed it previously. And he could not have answered, “No,” as he realised she was right, and therefore accepted her ????.
Avira, your pshat in the Gemoro in Sotah, as well as the ???? you bring to support it, is wrong. See Rashi there and to Bovo Metzio 107a s.v. ??? ????? ??????. We see from the ???? in ??? ????? that ??? ?????? is a novel concept, so much so that Rav didn’t hold of it. R’ Yochanan heard it from the ????? and accepted it.
Daas Yochid, so the Maharshal made an egregious error and is totally unqualified to have an opinion on these matters?
So you managed to squeeze out of the ??????’s writing that the Ibn Ezra wasn’t a ??? ?????. Great! But how do you explain the other piece I quoted ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????, ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? Or maybe you just prefer to ignore it, since it doesn’t fit with your worldview.
Avira, I agree the Ibn Ezra would not have knowingly referred to Rebbi Yochanan as ????? ???; however, as I explained, he probably didn’t realise this was a ???? ??”?.
Avira, you ask whether I’m sufficiently convinced of my understanding of Chazal, Rishonim and science to stake my Olam Habo on my beliefs. Just so we’re clear, the answer is yes.
An idea cannot be ????????? if it is true, no matter who says otherwise.
You are being ???? ??????. I came across this piece of Rabbeinu Saadyah Gaon because my father showed it to me. I came across the ????? from ?? ??????? ???? where he says that Chazal did not know medical science because my father showed it to me. And it’s not just those two ??????: Rav Shmuel bar Chofni Gaon, the Redak and Abarbanel all feel free to reject Chazal in matters other than Halocho. And Rav Zev Wolf Einhorn, the ????? ?????? on ???? ???, says that Chazal believed in a flat earth. (I came across this when learning, not by doing an online search.) There are many others; you know where to find them.
And this is not a question of psak, where we (generally) follow the Remo. This is a question of ??????, which by definition cannot be paskened. If the Remo would pasken that the earth is flat, would you accept that too?
There is nothing I do because of these beliefs that I wouldn’t do if I thought all of Chazal non scientific statements were true.
Avira, saying someone is considered reliable isn’t the same as saying that they should receive ????? ????. If Zucker wasn’t reliable, his sefer wouldn’t be used. It probably wouldn’t be on Otzar Hachochma either. A Conservative Rabbi can also be considered reliable. Jastrow’s dictionary is used by many ????? ?????? and considered reliable even though he, too, was a Conservative Rabbi. And look how hard Zucker tries to escape the conclusion that Rabbeinu Saadyah was referring to Rebbi Yochanan, yet you still think he has an agenda!
But let’s leave Zucker to one side. You don’t accept his pshat in Rabbeinu Saadyah; ok. So can you suggest an alternative? Look at the Arabic original in Zucker’s sefer. There is absolutely no reason (besides wishful thinking) to assume the text is corrupt. So I challenge you to find any other way to explain Rabbeinu Saadyah. You can even leave out the words in square brackets if you like. Just explain the rest. Go on, I’ll wait.
I have already explained why the Ibn Ezra uses the term ????? ??? davka here. I’m not going to repeat myself. But what is really stunning is your confident assertion, “The Maharshal doesn’t accuse him of not knowing Shas; that’s your own insertion.” Can you read and translate Hebrew? Yes? So how do you translate the phrase ??? ?? ??? ??? ??????? And then a few words later: ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????, ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????.
And what about the Avi Ezri, who understands the Ibn Ezra like me? Was he also a Conservative rabbi? And how do you understand the Ibn Ezra? Do you have an alternative ??? (other than R’ Shmuel Motot’s ???, which simply doesn’t work)?
I, too, think the Oruch Hashulchon is a masterpiece. Indeed, I consider it to be one of the greatest seforim ever written. And I also pasken like him against the ???? ?????. But that doesn’t mean everything he says is binding. You ask whether I would also argue with a ??? from the ????. Allow me to answer you by quoting from the ???? ?????? ??? ????:
?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????, ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????.Let me address Rav Saadyah Gaon’s ????? first. The ???? is called Moshe Zucker; as far as I know he is considered reliable. He shows very clearly which words survived in the Arabic manuscript and which he adds in himself. There are only a few words missing in this piece. And Zucker is very reluctant to say that Rav Saadyah was referring to ??? ?????, because (as you say) the phrase ??? ??????? seems quite disrespectful in tone. He tries to suggest an alternative, that the reference is to the kusi in the Medrash you quoted, but this doesn’t work because the kusi held that only Har Gerizim wasn’t flooded, but the rest of Eretz Yisroel was. He therefore concludes ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??”?.
Now, what I imagine happened is that the Ibn Ezra (whose ????? is largely based on Rabbeinu Saadyah Gaon) saw this piece in Rabbeinu Saadyah Gaon and assumed he was talking about a Karaite, because (as Zucker points out) the phrase ??? ??????? in Rabbeinu Saadyah Gaon’s ????? usually means he’s talking about a Karaite. The Ibn Ezra probably didn’t know the Gemoro in Zevochim (the Maharshal you mentioned is happy to accept the possibility that he didn’t know Shas) and therefore rejected this ??? with language one expects him to use when talking about the Karaites. And again, the Avi Ezer understands the Ibn Ezra to be referring to Rebbi Yochanan, and struggles with the lack of respect.
I don’t see the psak of the Oruch Hashulchon as binding, and I feel able to argue with him. He is actually one of the ???? ???? I use most, but that doesn’t mean I accept everything he says. (I imagine that neither do you.)
Avira, sorry I haven’t replied yet. Hopefully tomorrow.
AAQ, I don’t understand what you’re saying. Reread your post and try again.
Avira, the amount of amaratzus in your latest (long) post is simply astounding. How are you able to make such ridiculous statements with such confidence?
In the sugya in Sanhedrin, I counted no fewer than five Tannoim and Amoroim who prove ???? ????? ?? ????? from a ???? in ?”?. The term ???? in this context refers to the entirety of ??”?. Rashi cannot be referring to a particular ????, as you mistakenly imagine; he says, “????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????.” (For your information, the word ?????? is a plural.)
When the Radak says a non-Halachic interpretation of ??”? is ????? ?? ????, he is rejecting their ???. This is entirely unlike ??????, which asks a ????, and then (9 times out of 10) continues to a ?????.
I know Rabbeinu Saadiah Gaon’s ????? was written in Arabic. Not sure what you want from that. There is no reason to assume it’s unreliable. Regardless, he is certainly referring to Rebbi Yochanan, as he even brings R’ Yochanan’s proof text – the ???? in ??????. (See the ???? for further confirmation that this is his meaning.) R’ Shmuel Motot’s ??? doesn’t hold much water (pun intended): he learns that according to R’ Yochanan it did not rain in Eretz Yisroel, but the water which rained on other lands flowed into Eretz Yisroel. If so, the whole Gemoro in Zevochim makes no sense. For example, Rebbi Yochanan understands the word ????? as a reference to Eretz Yisroel STAYING DRY during the flood. He also says that the people in Eretz Yisroel died from heat, not the floodwaters.
You then move on to Rebbi Yochanan’s encounter with the kusi. Now, as far as I know this Medrash appears in four places: Breishis Rabbah, Shir haShirim Rabbah, Devorim Rabbah and Yalkut Shimoni. In all four places the name of the ????? is ??? ?????. I know this may come as a surprise, but Rebbi Yochanan and Rebbi Yonasan were two different people! (Tosafos in Zevochim 113a s.v. lo has the story happening to Rebbi Yishmael beRebbi Yosi, who was also a different person.)
I’m not sure why the Abarbanel goes to such lengths to explain how the Ramban can fit with Chazal. Maybe he was scared that if people saw the Ramban rejecting one Chazal about Moshiach, they would feel free to reject others. But it is undeniable the the Abarbanel himself often disagrees with Chazal. In that very same chapter (Melochim I 10) he brings the words of Chazal that ???? ??? wasn’t a queen but a kingdom, and rejects them, saying ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????.
The Rambam did not need to bring any examples of ????? ??????; the fact he does so proves he is only referring to people like ???? ???????, and not people who only reject Chazal’s non-Halachic droshos. Denying Olam Habo is a serious matter, and falls within Chazal’s remit. I accept Chazal’s religious authority (and so their ability to codify articles of faith), just not their scientific authority, even when based on droshos.
The quotation from Rav Shmuel bar Chofni Gaon is still in the same place it was on Sunday: in the Radak to Shmuel Alef 28, 24.
Sorry, Taanis 4a
Ysiegel, you say that both boys and girls should learn to appreciate something deeper than cheap, shallow externalities. This has always been very difficult. Tosafos in Taanis 3a says ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????, when getting married to a girl people only care about her looks. And without physical attraction it is extremely hard, or even near impossible, to build a strong marriage.
Avira, one does not need to accept any droshos in order to be a ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????. Techiyas hameisim is ????? in ??? ?????; one who believes in that does not need to accept any of the other droshos in that sugya. (Rashi uses the term ????? for all the Scriptural inferences in that sugya, but the reading of the ???? in ????? can hardly be considered a ????!) Anyway, belief in ????? ????? is an exception, because ??”? have told us it is an article of our faith to believe that ????? ????? is ?? ?????. Chazal said no such thing with regard to all other non-Halachic ?????.
It’s very nice you quote the ???”? about ????? ??????; it’s just a shame you didn’t carry on reading a few more words: the ???”? continues “???? ???? ???????.” Needless to say, ???? ??????? did not just deny Chazal’s non-Halachic ?????, so that ???? too goes out the window.
The Radak is happy to say that a non-Halachic interpretation of ??”? is ????? ?? ???? (Shmuel II, 23, 16.) There is a ?????? ??????? in Zevochim 113 about whether the ???? also flooded ??? ?????. Here is a quote from Rabbeinu Saadiah Gaon’s ????? ?? ????? where he discusses this ??????:
???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????
??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? etc.This is how Rabbeinu Saadiah Gaon speaks about Rebbi Yochanan!
Next you quote from the Abarbanel. Is this the same Abarbanel, I wonder, who says in his ????? to Melochim I 10 22 that Ezra may have made a geographical error when writing a ???? in ?”??
I proved from the words of Rav Shmuel bar Chofni Gaon that we don’t have to accept Chaza’s non-Halachic ?????; your rebuttal fails to address this.
And whatever makes you think I have left the koslei beis hamedrash? (For your information, I haven’t.)
Sam Klein,
Your post is very insulting to the thousands of older singles who DO turn directly to Hashem for help. Many say Tehillim, go to the Kosel, take on kabbolos etc. for a long time, but have not yet seen a yeshuah.
Oh, and by the way, when you say “Mrs. Seminary Girl,” don’t you mean Miss?
Avira, my saying that Rav Natrunai Gaon refutes the Maharsha is no worse than you saying that the Rambam refutes Rav Hirsch (which by the way I don’t think he does).
I have plenty in my head besides Nathan Slifkin and blogs. I probably know more than you. (Haven’t you seen my screen name? 😉
The fact the snake issue is a drosho doesn’t change anything. We are not obligated to accept Chazal’s non-Halachic droshos. As Rav Shmuel bar Chofni Gaon says (quoted in Radak, Shmuel Alef 28 ): “Even though it would appear from the words of Chazal that…these words cannot be accepted when contradicted by ???,” and there, too, the reference is to a non-Halachic drosho.
Now, it is true that on today’s maps Bovel is very slightly north of Eretz Yisroel (under one degree of latitude), but in Chazal’s times they did not have modern maps. I’m not even sure Chazal had access to any maps at all. And every map that did exist then contradicted every other map. Moreover, most reconstructions of Greek and Roman maps have Babylon SOUTH of Eretz Yisroel, so of course Chazal had to bring a posuk. The fact you can show me that on a modern map Bovel is very slightly north is entirely irrelevant.
Avira, how can you say that Chazal had a mesorah for the gestation period of a snake if what they say conflicts with what we know? And Rav Natrunai Gaon says we shouldn’t rely on Chazalks refuos because they were not doctors, and so their refuos might not work and might even be dangerous (directly refuting the Maharsha you quote.) Regarding Bavel, of course they needed a passuk, because if you look at a map you will see Bavel is EAST of Eretz Yisroel (which is why it’s called ?????) and so you need the passuk to show that it’s also (slightly) north.
Avira, I agree with AAQ. It is perfectly acceptable to say that Chazal’s knowledge of the sciences was restricted to what was then known by non-Jewish scientists. Not only is it acceptable, it also happens to be true, as can be proven from numerous places in Shas and Midroshim.
Avira, there are two things I’m unsure about:
1) What does this sentence mean? ‘Some are punished with worse suffering than gehinnom, which is chiefly intended to cleanse a person of their sins – acher had not been able to enter geninnom, as the OP correctly stated, since his Torah was protecting him.’
2) Are we disagreeing?
I agree 100% with Avira. In most cases, a total rasha will not merit to go through Gehennom as a means of achieving Gan Eden; he will either cease to exist upon his death (Rambam Hilchos Teshuvah) or burn in Gehennom for ever and ever (Rosh Hashanah 17a). Hashem was especially merciful in Acher’s case by not sending him to Gehennom for eternity, but that would have meant no Gan Eden either; and then Rebbi Meir’s zchus helped him get into Gehennom for a short tinein order to eventually arrive at Gan Eden
Reb Eliezer, quite the opposite. Eliyohu Hanovi told the prophets of Baal to scream louder so their idol should hear it. One who thinks Hashem can’t hear quiet prayer just as well as loud prayer is described by Chazal as ????? ???? (Brochos 24b)
coffee addict, when you say ???? surely you mean ???? ???. Or is that part of the Purim torah?
@Menachem Shmiel, because most poskim disagree.
@Menachem Shmiel
1) I’m afraid I find Rabbi Yair Hoffman’s article (to which the article you quote is a response) far more convincing.
2) The OP also mentioned ‘public lightings in places with minuscule Jewish population such as Cheyenne, Wyoming.’ I was responding to that part of the post, not to rooftop menorahs.
It should be toned down every year, not just this year. Lighting the menorah anywhere other than a Jewish house or a Shul is simply a brochoh levatoloh.
AAQ, don’t worry, I’m not offended at all. Not sure what you mean by ?????? being a social practice with a halachic basis – I mean, I suppose ??????? is a social practice with a halachic basis, but then so is ??? and ???, which were your examples.
You say that you believe ??? ???? is a halachic imperative, so it needs to have halachic parameters. I have never heard of ??? ???? as a halachic imperative. I just think the concept means that it is sensible to follow advice from a ????, because he knows better than you do, and can see things you cannot. The concept of taking advice from Gedolim about matters unrelated to halacha already existed in the time of Chazal (as can be seen from the Medrash I brought); it just wasn’t called ??? ???? back then.
In the Gemoro in Kiddushin, Ze’iri did not approach R’ Yochanan for advice. R’ Yochanan started a conversation trying to persuade him to marry his daughter. Obviously Ze’iri rejected R’ Yochanan’s advice, because he remembered the statement of R’ Elozor that R’ Yochanan had forgotten, so he knew his teacher was making a (halachic) mistake. And to answer your questions, if you come to your Rov and ask advice for a shidduch, I believe it’s perfectly ok halachically to reject it; however, it might not be a smart thing to do. And it certainly is ok not to ask if you know the answer yourself, or to reject a Rov’s advice if you know for sure he is wrong.
None of these tools can make a person a Gaon. These tools are designed for baalebatim who want to learn a few hours a day. Becoming a Gaon requires many years of full-time learning, and a plan.