You are making a mistake, it is not proudly flown. It is just flown.
The Ponavasa Rav was not a Zionist. The Rav had his chashbonas on why he flew a flag above the holy yeshiva.
Frock, You are 1000% correct. Not sure why yeshiva world is always leaning ( not all the way, just leaning) towards the side of leftist zionism and kineged our gedoilim
please let me know if I’m wrong, but I was told that they don’t say tachanun in Ponovezh on this day.
“proudly flown”. YW: Why the spin?
Jimmy Carter also flew an American Flag over the white House although he is an internationalist who hates America, Jews, and Israel.
MODERATOR Posted – 18 August 2004 12:22 The B,
You mean Ponovezh. Every few years, one of the students asks their Rebbi there this question. The answer invariably is that heir putting up the Israeli flag on that day is more of a letzonus to the State of Israel than anything else – they openly express their opposition to the State’s existence, and once a year they have a utilitarian purpose in putting up the flag – if they do, they can get funding. Then they take it down. They take the flag and the Zionist movement so not seriously that their attitude is – OK – you want a flag? Here’s your flag – now you owe me money. lol.
If it is clear that the REASON you are putting up the flag has nothing to do with allegiance to Israel or Zionism but rather a way to channel funds from the Zionists to somewhere where they will do some good, then that is surely not supporting any Avodah Zorah. If you display the Israeli flag because you support Israel or Zionism, then that is different
frock and lisheim shamayim, DINA DMALCHUSA DINA!
How are we as Jews ever going to garner the respect from goyim, when the in-fighting amongst Jews is so tremendous. 24,000 students of Rabbi Akiva, z”l perished during this time due to loshan hara. Seems here in Yeshiva World, that contempt and hatred still lives. Am Yisrael Chai. Klal Yisrael Chai!
YW is right.
The flag is flown proudly.
If it was not proudly, then it would be flown in a yard not being visable to the public. But by sticking a big flag on the roof of the building for all to see is PROUDLY.
As a side note, nothing ever took place in Ponavez without the Chazon Ish approving it. For all those who are unaware, the Chzon Ish was adamantly against the Zionist State of Israel (as well as I am) – and STILL allowed this flag to be displayed.
Proudly…not proudly WHO CARES.
If Rav Shach ZATZAL allowed it to take place, then it’s proudly.
This is ridiculous.
Do they fly a flag? Yes. That’s the bottom line.
“Ah yes, we fly it. But not proudly”.
LOL, do you see how silly that sounds?
Rav Shach ztl was hired as a sosh yeshiva in ponivetz. The final word on what to do in ponevich was Rabbi Kahanaeman, the ponevitcher rav.
Do the zionists have some kind of law mandating flying their flag on that day? Or requiring it to get funding?
Not that I would expect any freedom of expression from the zionists. I mean they beat people in the streets and Yeshivas who’s views they don’t like.
without getting involved in this silly debate, in response to GET REAL’s comment: there is no Dina D’Malchusa Dina is Eretz Yisroel!
Hallili Nafshi
very well said and very courageous of you to make that point!
Joe Schmo says;
The flag is flown proudly.
If it was not proudly, then it would be flown in a yard not being visable to the public. But by sticking a big flag on the roof of the building for all to see is PROUDLY.
THEN he says;
The Chazon Ish was adamently against the Zionist State ……and STILL allowed the flag to be displayed.
Well if thats the case then he allowed it to be flown but not PROUDLY.
Decide which point you want to make because your contradicting yourself and sound RIDICULOUS, A clear reflection of your pseudonym!!!
Lebedik – what exactly is ur point?
lebedik,
Since when have you become a Posaick.
It is a machloks Rishonim.
Is Ponevesh the only charaidei yeshivah to fly it.
What about Mir, Kol Torah etc..?
Joseph,
I hear your Taana, I can agree with that to a point…
Speaking of beating people in the streets… You know what they say about ‘People in glass houses’…
1) How about the UNPRECEDENTED Chilull Hashem of Bachurim vandalizing property all over EY last year in response to the shame parade? Not to mention the things that were thrown at the police?
2) How about the people in Geula/Meah Shearim who throw stones at cars on Shabbos?
3) Women getting beaten up for sitting in the front of the bus
4) Women getting stoned & bleached in Meah Shearim, clothing stores getting burned down all for what??? Because someone has a different level of Tzniyus?
Since us Yidden are in the pursuit of peace, it wouldn’t be too hard to understand that they would to fly the flag if it would make some sholom between the chareidim and the government. Although, I have to agree with halilinafshi as far as the funding goes.
I by always amazed that there is so much concern about hatred shown to enemies of the torah, but when hatred is shown to kollel members who uphold the torah everyone is silent. Sometimes the hatred is shown by the preachers themselves. The torah tells up to love talmidei chacomim and to hate reshoim.
torahis1, you are repeating all the left-wing sound-bites. The fact is you cannot compare some hot-blooded youngsters who represent no one but themselves throwing rocks or vandalizing property, to the Israeli Police, representing the zionist entity, on horseback storming into Yeshivas Mir, hitting innocent bystanders, clubbing peaceful protesters, etc. amongst a long list over the life of the State of their anti-religious violence, all because these Yidden oppose zionsm.
urbmase; you are makinig a mistake the 24,000 talmidim did not die because of loshon hora, it was because “SHELO NOHAGU KOVOD ZEH B’ZEH….(ie. NK… who hate anybody that doesn’t agree with them)
plus… if you want respect from the goyim, try to explain the NK to a goy.
A Trivia Question: What do the colors of the flag represent?
i am so ashamed by the above postings..
all soneh yisroel can take lessons from those that malign an entire segment of jews
The mir, Ponovezh. chevron function exclusively because of the financial and physical protection provided by the state institutions
All kollel students taking stipends from non-frum sources should stand up and sing the praises of those sources – Israel, America ..
you may disagree (civilly) with the policies of the memshalah
BUT
to be kafui tov, to virulently attack (the way goyim do) an entire segment of fellow jews (comprising an excess of 80% of the population) is indicative of a serious character flaw probably instilled by yeshivos and rabbeim equally flawed
shame on all of us for allowing this type of behavior to fester in our midst
“Shelo nohagu koved zeh b’zeh” translates to loshan hora.
YW editor-Not to be rude or anything, but I think putting up these such topics is a sure way to create even a little added friction between each other. Of course no one HATES each other, but I think posting topics that would promote ahavas yisroel would be more appropriate. You have done some great ones recently and it was solid proof to what I just wrote.
It is said that when the Brisker Rav, zatzal, heard that the medina had been declared, he was so upset that he got sick and took to bed. Hearing of this, the Chazon Ish, zatzal, sent a special shliach to console him, “It’s a gezeira and a gezeira can be annulled.” To this the Brisker Rav answered, “But I’m afraid that Torah mosdos will take money from the Zionists and give them the merit to survive.” This is in accord with the Brisker shita that it’s forbidden and a chilul Hashen for Torah mosdos to take money from the medina. I heard recently that R’ Chaim Brim, zatzal, used to say that he heard from the Chazon Ish that Moshiach would not take over directly from the Zionists, that there would be something else in between. Please everyone who reads this take a moment to daven that Hashem bring Moshiach quickly and with mercy and compassion.
does anyone know of any gedolim who say yehi shem on yom haatzmaut or hallel on yom haatzmaut?
torahis1, It was a few hotheads. What kind of chutzpa do you haveto try to bismirch Torah Yidden with these few hotheads? Like you said many Rabbonim where troubled by it, as they are when even a small number of hotheads cause a ruckos.
And I did not say ALL the zionist police want to beat Torah Yidden. Please don’t try to put words in my mouth. Even in WWII there were Nazis who did not follow orders to hurt Yidden.
Let’s get real. The “medinah” is a refuge for all of us in times of crisis (e.g., French Jewry). We should be grateful to the Ribbono Shel Olam that HE gave us a place we can call our own. Who knows what the future will bring, even for American Jewry. The Medinah is an “Ir Miklot” for all of us.
oh… it’s only a matter of time before we all see that famous YW phase
“Children – Stop bickering!
Thread closed!”
torahis1,
I like your viewpionts.
I think that this is something nice. Even if not for the medina, then for the soldiers and victims who died. Even If i don’t agree that we should have a state altogether, I still support my fellow yidden.
Frankly, with all the complaints to the zionists, it appears that we can clearly say Gam Zu Latova. As Israel, is the biggest mokom torah and they were the shiluchim.
By the way, with all respect to a previous comment at 11:17 (heresay at this point untill I see it in a sefer).Every Holocaust surviver I have spoken to (especially those that went through the camps) wept tears of joy when the state was declared yiden won in 1948.
the fact is you dont have to be a zionist not to be kofui tov and have somewhat of a hakoras hatov, people dont like to hear it but true gedolim like the ponovizher rov felt (and so did reb chatztkel sarne ) that the medinah even though they oppossed their hashkafah it has many merits mainly being all the torah that comes forth, all the yeshivos and kollelim in eretz yisrael, that is their zechus kiyum being the largest bastion of torah beichus and bekamus, so like it or not the medinah who allows this to flourish is a silent partner in this tremendous zechus, therefore they received the respect to an extent from the ponovizher rav and other gedolim and henceforth the flag was flown, this is alef bais hashkafahs das torah but the world is so warped today they dont get it.
It is a knowen fact that when the great Ponevicher rav was asked
why he dosn’t sit in the kanesset has he had sat in the parmliment in Euorpe, he said that he does not have eough money to buu knew clothing
evry time that he has to rip his clothing over the things that are being done in the Kenesset
David Zafrani Says:
A Trivia Question: What do the colors of the flag represent?
The blue stripes repesent the ticheilis on the tallis and the Magen David is a Jewish symbol which started in late Medieval Prague.
A few years ago I was in doubt about what to do with Yom Haatzmaut. I felt I could not celebrate like the Zionists do, but I felt that I had to aknowledge that something happened. Even if through the hands of the zionists, Hashem, gave our land back to our people!
Just than, the answer came from one of our Gedolim. I happened to hear a story about a secular journalist interviewing HaRav Kahaneman in the early years of the state. Wanting to “expose” his “anti-zionism”, he asked the Rosh Yesivah how did they celebrate Yom Haatzmaut in Poinevitz. The Rosh Yeshiva, with incredible cleverness answered “at Poinevitz we celebrate exactly like Ben Gurion does: no tachnun and no hallel”.
So that’s what I decided to do.
Why can’t we just call it what it is. It is hakaras hatov to the Medinah for giving tens (if not hundreds) of millions of shekel to support people sitting and learning and the poor charedi families. Although many people have problems with the medinah in its current state, is it really wrong one day a year to say “thank you for financially supporting my learning”? If not for the government funding there would be a 10th of the yeshivos open today and the poverty, as bad as it is would be worse. So although you are entitled to disagree with the hashkafos (or lack there of) of the current and past Israeli leadership if you continue to bite the hand that feeds you eventually it will fall off, gut yom tov.
torahis1, You maliciously attacked our Gedolim and by extension every Torah Yid. Do not ask me to fail to defend their great honor.
You implied I said that ALL zionist police are anti-frum. That is in fact false. There are a few good apples in the bunch. As far as the comparison is concerned–need I remind you that the zionists have Hungarian Jewry’s blood on their hand? How they shamelessly prevented their rescuse in order to further their goals of establishing their “medinah”? For that World Jewry can neither forget, nor forgive.
My apologies for bothering you with the historical facts that do not conform to your revisionist history. But don’t let the “mere facts” get in your way.
In Ponovezh, they do say tachanun, and they did say selichos yesterday for behab. The story with the Ponovezher Rav happened when he found himself in another shul on that day, and there was a fight among the members over tachanun or hallel. They asked the choshuva guest, and the line of “Mir vellen tohn ve Ben Gurion, Nisht Hallel und Nisht Tachanun” was the Ponovezher Rav’s pshara to defuse a delicate situation.
We all agree the state of Israel is illigitmate, even the Lubavitcher Rebbe and the Satmar Rav, Rav Yoelish, but now that it is here, Does it need to be destroyed?
I wonder if there is a way to talk about this (and other) topics respectfully?
For those to the right, it would necessitate your look at how quickly you (and me?) sometimes drop your dignity and go to name calling. There may be a place for making fun of reshaim, but perhaps every act of rishus is not done by a rasha. Also, to call names in the presence of those who don’t share your hashkafos is wrong. Even if you were right, you’re wrong.
For those to the left, it would necessitate your willing to slow down on throwing out the ‘sinas chinam’ and ‘lashon hara’ call on every slight to every/any Jew or institution. Even if you’re right (which you may be more often than not), using it as a first line of response is counterproductive. You’ll excuse the comparison, please, but it reminds me of members of another faith group, l’havdil, who tell us that we will burn forever. They don’t get that it’s not that we aren’t afraid of burning forever; we just don’t believe in their rules of how to get there or how to avoid it. So, too, it’s not that people here are eager to speak lashon hara or hate their fellow Jew. They don’t believe that they are doing it, and you don’t help them see it by telling them how rotten they are.
Also, my friends to the left, it would help you to understand that there is a concept of hating evil. I am not claiming that it is perfectly understood or practiced (though I’m guilty of having claimed to be perfectly clean before – an admitted overstatement Moshe Fox), but there is such a concept. “Ohavay Hashem, sinu ra.” “Lovers of Hashem, hate evil.” At the command of Hashem and Moshe, Jews are killed by the aigel. NO NO NO, I’m not even remotely suggesting or hinting that any action is called for in any case today between Jews!!!!! I am saying explicitly that we are not supposed to blindly love all actions. It is not easy to love every Jew while we hate their actions, but it’s not beloved to Hashem to love their evil either.
Dearest Editor, only you and your fellow editors know how much you do (or don’t) consult with Daas Torah, but perhaps the majority of this falls on you for clearer rules of what you do/don’t post as articles and comments.
Respectfully submitted.
kitzur_dot_net Says:
April 24th, 2007 at 9:28 am
please let me know if I’m wrong, but I was told that they don’t say tachanun in Ponovezh on this day.
kitzur, chas vishalom! of course they say tachanun, probably with extra kavana
While following this thread, I have been having a difficult time comprehending many of the comments.
Mr Torahis1 and dontbeagolem (nice name!), Who pays taxes in Eretz Yisroel?… is it only the anti Torah?
Is your house clean?
“virulently attack” ? who are you referring to? yourself?
Chinuch problems,? yep the state religious schools (some even hosting their own police department branch) is a lot better!
What can I say other than, it smells of jealousy.
why don’t u show pictures of all the yeshivas who proudly don’t put up that blue and white rag
Reb Boruch Ber Weismandel, Rosh Yeshiva of Nitra wrote a book called Min Hametzar. There he alludes to the issue of rescue missions being prevented on behalf of Hungarian Jews. Reb Boruch Ber survived the war but remained emotionally sick for the rest of his life because he blamed himself for not doing more in order to help these JEWS, him being of Hungarian lineage. jOSPEH HAS A POINT,,,,,,,we must never forget that and yes, the Zionist have blood on their hands indeed!
corrrection,,,Reb Michoel Ber,,,,
They didn’t teach in zionist schools how the zionists prevented the savng of hundreds of thousands Hungarian Yidden? They forgot to teach how the Nazi’s slowed down the death trains while they waited for the ”lives for trucks” deal they struck to complete? And they failed to mention how the zionists stopped the Jew who was finalizing it from returning to Hungary, and so Eichmann vigirously restarted the death trains after the Jew couldn’t return to finalize?
Or all the other times the zionists prevented Jews beng rescued rom the Nazis, so not to hurt their cause to get a medinah? Oh I see, it must have all been Satmar propoganda trying to make the facts known.
FROCK, WHY ARE YOU CAUSING SO MUCH MACHLOKES IN KLAL YISROEL!!!!
“frock Says:
April 24th, 2007 at 9:09 am
You are making a mistake, it is not proudly flown. It is just flown.
The Ponavasa Rav was not a Zionist. The Rav had his chashbonas on why he flew a flag above the holy yeshiva.”
Joseph.
DOES THE NAME RUDOLPH KASTNER RING A BELL?? He was a true Zionist and rescued many , amongst them the Satmar Rebbe reb Yoilish . wHAT EVER HAPPENED TO HIM ,?
As I live and work in E.Y. I have a great hakoras hatov that the Midina takes a large chunk of my paycheck to fund all sorts of not jewish things.
So if a part of my tax goes to fund yeshivas Ill forgive them
Yehuda Drudgstein,
You wrote:
FROCK, WHY ARE YOU CAUSING SO MUCH MACHLOKES IN KLAL YISROEL!!!!
Please explain the machlokes that i caused.
I just stated the Emmas. The Emmaes must be said.
Nobody should cas vasholem think that the Heillega Ponavicher Rov was a Tziyonie
Aishes Chayil Says:
April 24th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Joseph.
DOES THE NAME RUDOLPH KASTNER RING A BELL??
Is that a real question? I would say it does – Joseph, wasn’t that who you were constantly referring to? The scapegoat of the “Perfidy” trials? BTW do you have any other knowledge besides for that book?
AC – Rudolf Kastner was killed in E. Yisroel after the war, following his conviction in a zionist court for colluding with the nazis (”selling his soul to the devil” in the words of the Israeli court.)
Aishes Chayil: Rudolph Kastner is the ONE who was most guilty of collaboration. See the book “Perfidy” by Ben Hecht, which is not much more than a record of the 1953-57 trial of Malkiel Greenwald for libel against Kastner. The trial proved beyond anyones doubt that Kastner sold the majority of a million Hungarian Jews, and his price was the “Kastner Train” on which 1500-2000 Jews were sent off to Switzerland, after a pit stop in Bergen Belsen. Yes, the Satmar Rav, R’ Yoel was on that train. And several other whom I know personally. We must me very much makir tovah for those who were saved. But look at the cost. Also, you can do some research on Joel and Chantzi Brand and another mission. . . . V”hameyven Yovin. This trial is a matter of public record.
Joseph: Actually, he was never tried. He was killed before they had a chance. But it was the Greenwald trial, where he published the kastner collaboration, and was sued for libel, and acquitted, where all the facts came out.
The Zionists didn’t stop the deal for the trucks, the british and americans did. Read the book “the abandonment of the jews”.
The fact is that eisav sonai yakov and it’s nice to know that in the event of chas vashalom a 1492 there is one place that jews are always welcome.
Well its my understanding that he worked with Eichmann and used his OWN money to buy these Jews and bring them to safety. Apparantly Eichmann allowed him to dress up as an SS officer and took him to BergeN Belsen to trace some people he knew.
Why was he convicted for saving Jews, he should have been awarded?
RE: chaim dov Says:
April 24th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Let’s get real. The “medinah” is a refuge for all of us in times of crisis (e.g., French Jewry). We should be grateful to the Ribbono Shel Olam that HE gave us a place we can call our own. Who knows what the future will bring, even for American Jewry. The Medinah is an “Ir Miklot” for all of us.
Personally, I wouldn’t call a country that has never known a day of peace in its 50+ year life a “haven”, particularly when that country has actively and, at times, forcibly, taken so many of our brethren away from the Torah.
With all due respect, one needs to read up on early Zionist history (and open one’s eyes to its current atrocities against its citizens like Gaza, Amona, et al – and that’s only what makes the papers) before deciding that the medina is such a wonderful thing. Ani Maamin beemuna shileima bivias haMashiach – not in the State of Israel being a place that Hashem gave us to stay – what, then, would be the point of Galus if we already have a place to stay?
re: Aishes Chayil and Rudolph Kastner
Yes, many of us have heard of Rudolph Kastner, from, among other sources, “Perfidy” by American screenwriter Ben Hecht, which, by the way, is banned in Israel. Why?
Might “Perfidy” be banned because it describes many proofs to why the State of Israel ,in its attempt to defend Kastner, ended up being proven to be Nazi collaborators along with Kastner? It’s a story worthy of Stephen King, IMHO. See Joseph’s comments above as well.
My view: If you live and work there, Israel does “protect” you, so it would seem that some hakaras hatov is due. If you don’t live there, why would you celebrate someone else’s July 4th?
Matt Ecstein wrote:
Please explain the machlokes that i caused.
I just stated the Emmas. The Emmaes must be said.
Nobody should cas vasholem think that the Heillega Ponavicher Rov was a Tziyonie
Obviously the Flag had the approval of the Rosh Hayeshivos. If it would have not been done proudly it would have been hung “Half Staffed”! So all you accomplished by your post was causing all this bickering, controversy and Machlokes in Klal Yisroel!!!!!!!!
after seeing so many ‘brilliant comments’ I think I am gonna hang a white flag on my house………mee kiamchoh yisroel!!!!!!!!!!
what is going on? What is yom hoatzmut anyway. i never heard of it.
They call it DEGEL – Davar HaGorem L’mamon.
midwesterner – The Greenwald trial did take place before Kastner was killed by a holocaust survivor.
Oh vays mir – The zionists tricked him into leaving Turkey and going to Palestine where the masered on him to have the British arrest him. This was done to prevent him from getting back to Hungary and completing the deal to save the Hungarian Jewish lives. The zionists felt it would not be helpful towards getting their “medinah” by letting him save Hungarian Jewry.
And is there anyplace in the world that Jews inhabit today that is LESS safe than Israel? It is in Israel only that homicide and other killers attack Jews endlessly. The zionist dream of a “safehaven” is an utter and complete failure.
torahis1 – I will continue to defend the Torah Yidden from the mailicous attacks on them by your ilk.
Fox – I don’t see any contradiction. Here you have a zionist himself admitting the crimes the zionists commited in effectively collaborating with the Nazi’s. For the anti-zionists to use that, does not contradict not using their celebrating their reckless founding of the medinah.
torahis1,
The points you raise are always interesting, but I do wish this one was worded with more derech eretz to a fellow Jew, even if you don’t agree with him.
In one short post, you included about an insult per sentence. Reading between that, I can tell you are a really thoughtful and intelligent person. Why take away from that by “verbally spitting” on another? I mean no disrespect, and I hope you take this with the goodwill that it was written with.
It’s called DEGEL – Davar HaGorem L’mamon.
“Blue & White rag…” (sic) Zionist smionist. That statement is as offensive as seeing an arab send the US flag up in flames.
Fox says;
Interesting how Ben Hecht’s Perfidy is held in such high esteem by the anti-Zionist crowd (never mind that Hecht himself was a Zionist), but the same crowd never quotes from another Hecht work – A Flag is Born – celebrating the founding of Medinat Yisrael.
Aishes Chayil says:
Why is that so hard to understand? The theme in Ben Hecht’s Perfidy suits their arguement whereas the Medinah goes against their principles! It is simple,
The same way those who are Anti Chareidi only recognize the Ultra Frum when it comes to Hatzoloh or Chevra K’ or any other orginazation initiated by Chareidim which is oppertune for them! Simple case of ‘picking and choosing’
urbmase – ged is correct. It is a rag, useful as a floor mat in the bais hakiseh. This position has been taken by many Gedolei Yisroel.
torahis1 – that is what you say when you lost the argument on the merits. The bottom line is you attacked Bnei Torah by besmirching them by the acts of a few. You have no right to attack them for someone else’s deeds. That is hatred at its most instinctive nature.
The Magen David a “rag.” For is not that what is pronounced loudly on that “rag.” Perhaps it is your “black hat” that is the rag.
torahis1 – I do not stand on my own pedestal calling the zionists to the carpet for collaborating with the Nazis and working overtime to prevent the rescue of millions of Yiddishe neshamos from the Nazi gehenim. I merely rely on the Gedolei Yisroel who have countless times pointed out the facts (that you do not like seeing.) The Satmar Rebbe himself, a giant of the giants who along with Rav Ahron Kotler made Torah in America what it is today, made these very same points.
And although I WELCOME questions, the buck stops when you attack Torah Yidden. And it is the irresponsible statements of you and your ilk, like placing the blame of some pathetic protesters on the shoulders of all of Torah Yidden that distances many holy neshomos from the Torah, and sends them away from Yiddishkeit.
Let’s get real. The “medinah” is a refuge for all of us in times of crisis
remember that the day before is yom hazikaron for over 20,000 is this the safest refuge?
in what other country has that many jews been killed during peace??
and in case chas veshalom of real war today……
r we realy safe???
IM HASHEM LO YISHMOR IR SHAV SHAKAD SHOMER
Perhaps it is your “black hat” that is the rag.
And with that………the comments are CLOSED.
(Please don’t call my beautiful, brand-spankin’-new bencraft borsalino a “rag”.)
The Israeli flag proudly flown at The Ponavez Yeshiva in Bnei Brak every year on Yom Ha’atzmut. 
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78 Responses
You are making a mistake, it is not proudly flown. It is just flown.
The Ponavasa Rav was not a Zionist. The Rav had his chashbonas on why he flew a flag above the holy yeshiva.
Frock, You are 1000% correct. Not sure why yeshiva world is always leaning ( not all the way, just leaning) towards the side of leftist zionism and kineged our gedoilim
please let me know if I’m wrong, but I was told that they don’t say tachanun in Ponovezh on this day.
“proudly flown”. YW: Why the spin?
Jimmy Carter also flew an American Flag over the white House although he is an internationalist who hates America, Jews, and Israel.
MODERATOR Posted – 18 August 2004 12:22 The B,
You mean Ponovezh. Every few years, one of the students asks their Rebbi there this question. The answer invariably is that heir putting up the Israeli flag on that day is more of a letzonus to the State of Israel than anything else – they openly express their opposition to the State’s existence, and once a year they have a utilitarian purpose in putting up the flag – if they do, they can get funding. Then they take it down. They take the flag and the Zionist movement so not seriously that their attitude is – OK – you want a flag? Here’s your flag – now you owe me money. lol.
If it is clear that the REASON you are putting up the flag has nothing to do with allegiance to Israel or Zionism but rather a way to channel funds from the Zionists to somewhere where they will do some good, then that is surely not supporting any Avodah Zorah. If you display the Israeli flag because you support Israel or Zionism, then that is different
frock and lisheim shamayim, DINA DMALCHUSA DINA!
How are we as Jews ever going to garner the respect from goyim, when the in-fighting amongst Jews is so tremendous. 24,000 students of Rabbi Akiva, z”l perished during this time due to loshan hara. Seems here in Yeshiva World, that contempt and hatred still lives. Am Yisrael Chai. Klal Yisrael Chai!
YW is right.
The flag is flown proudly.
If it was not proudly, then it would be flown in a yard not being visable to the public. But by sticking a big flag on the roof of the building for all to see is PROUDLY.
As a side note, nothing ever took place in Ponavez without the Chazon Ish approving it. For all those who are unaware, the Chzon Ish was adamantly against the Zionist State of Israel (as well as I am) – and STILL allowed this flag to be displayed.
Proudly…not proudly WHO CARES.
If Rav Shach ZATZAL allowed it to take place, then it’s proudly.
This is ridiculous.
Do they fly a flag? Yes. That’s the bottom line.
“Ah yes, we fly it. But not proudly”.
LOL, do you see how silly that sounds?
Rav Shach ztl was hired as a sosh yeshiva in ponivetz. The final word on what to do in ponevich was Rabbi Kahanaeman, the ponevitcher rav.
Do the zionists have some kind of law mandating flying their flag on that day? Or requiring it to get funding?
Not that I would expect any freedom of expression from the zionists. I mean they beat people in the streets and Yeshivas who’s views they don’t like.
without getting involved in this silly debate, in response to GET REAL’s comment: there is no Dina D’Malchusa Dina is Eretz Yisroel!
Hallili Nafshi
very well said and very courageous of you to make that point!
Joe Schmo says;
The flag is flown proudly.
If it was not proudly, then it would be flown in a yard not being visable to the public. But by sticking a big flag on the roof of the building for all to see is PROUDLY.
THEN he says;
The Chazon Ish was adamently against the Zionist State ……and STILL allowed the flag to be displayed.
Well if thats the case then he allowed it to be flown but not PROUDLY.
Decide which point you want to make because your contradicting yourself and sound RIDICULOUS, A clear reflection of your pseudonym!!!
Lebedik – what exactly is ur point?
lebedik,
Since when have you become a Posaick.
It is a machloks Rishonim.
Is Ponevesh the only charaidei yeshivah to fly it.
What about Mir, Kol Torah etc..?
Joseph,
I hear your Taana, I can agree with that to a point…
Speaking of beating people in the streets… You know what they say about ‘People in glass houses’…
1) How about the UNPRECEDENTED Chilull Hashem of Bachurim vandalizing property all over EY last year in response to the shame parade? Not to mention the things that were thrown at the police?
2) How about the people in Geula/Meah Shearim who throw stones at cars on Shabbos?
3) Women getting beaten up for sitting in the front of the bus
4) Women getting stoned & bleached in Meah Shearim, clothing stores getting burned down all for what??? Because someone has a different level of Tzniyus?
Let’s clean up our own house first…
why did u post this ,what ponit are bringing out.
Edited by Site Moderation Panel.
See article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponevezh_yeshiva
Since us Yidden are in the pursuit of peace, it wouldn’t be too hard to understand that they would to fly the flag if it would make some sholom between the chareidim and the government. Although, I have to agree with halilinafshi as far as the funding goes.
I by always amazed that there is so much concern about hatred shown to enemies of the torah, but when hatred is shown to kollel members who uphold the torah everyone is silent. Sometimes the hatred is shown by the preachers themselves. The torah tells up to love talmidei chacomim and to hate reshoim.
torahis1, you are repeating all the left-wing sound-bites. The fact is you cannot compare some hot-blooded youngsters who represent no one but themselves throwing rocks or vandalizing property, to the Israeli Police, representing the zionist entity, on horseback storming into Yeshivas Mir, hitting innocent bystanders, clubbing peaceful protesters, etc. amongst a long list over the life of the State of their anti-religious violence, all because these Yidden oppose zionsm.
urbmase; you are makinig a mistake the 24,000 talmidim did not die because of loshon hora, it was because “SHELO NOHAGU KOVOD ZEH B’ZEH….(ie. NK… who hate anybody that doesn’t agree with them)
plus… if you want respect from the goyim, try to explain the NK to a goy.
A Trivia Question: What do the colors of the flag represent?
i am so ashamed by the above postings..
all soneh yisroel can take lessons from those that malign an entire segment of jews
The mir, Ponovezh. chevron function exclusively because of the financial and physical protection provided by the state institutions
All kollel students taking stipends from non-frum sources should stand up and sing the praises of those sources – Israel, America ..
you may disagree (civilly) with the policies of the memshalah
BUT
to be kafui tov, to virulently attack (the way goyim do) an entire segment of fellow jews (comprising an excess of 80% of the population) is indicative of a serious character flaw probably instilled by yeshivos and rabbeim equally flawed
shame on all of us for allowing this type of behavior to fester in our midst
“Shelo nohagu koved zeh b’zeh” translates to loshan hora.
YW editor-Not to be rude or anything, but I think putting up these such topics is a sure way to create even a little added friction between each other. Of course no one HATES each other, but I think posting topics that would promote ahavas yisroel would be more appropriate. You have done some great ones recently and it was solid proof to what I just wrote.
It is said that when the Brisker Rav, zatzal, heard that the medina had been declared, he was so upset that he got sick and took to bed. Hearing of this, the Chazon Ish, zatzal, sent a special shliach to console him, “It’s a gezeira and a gezeira can be annulled.” To this the Brisker Rav answered, “But I’m afraid that Torah mosdos will take money from the Zionists and give them the merit to survive.” This is in accord with the Brisker shita that it’s forbidden and a chilul Hashen for Torah mosdos to take money from the medina. I heard recently that R’ Chaim Brim, zatzal, used to say that he heard from the Chazon Ish that Moshiach would not take over directly from the Zionists, that there would be something else in between. Please everyone who reads this take a moment to daven that Hashem bring Moshiach quickly and with mercy and compassion.
does anyone know of any gedolim who say yehi shem on yom haatzmaut or hallel on yom haatzmaut?
torahis1, It was a few hotheads. What kind of chutzpa do you haveto try to bismirch Torah Yidden with these few hotheads? Like you said many Rabbonim where troubled by it, as they are when even a small number of hotheads cause a ruckos.
And I did not say ALL the zionist police want to beat Torah Yidden. Please don’t try to put words in my mouth. Even in WWII there were Nazis who did not follow orders to hurt Yidden.
Let’s get real. The “medinah” is a refuge for all of us in times of crisis (e.g., French Jewry). We should be grateful to the Ribbono Shel Olam that HE gave us a place we can call our own. Who knows what the future will bring, even for American Jewry. The Medinah is an “Ir Miklot” for all of us.
oh… it’s only a matter of time before we all see that famous YW phase
“Children – Stop bickering!
Thread closed!”
torahis1,
I like your viewpionts.
I think that this is something nice. Even if not for the medina, then for the soldiers and victims who died. Even If i don’t agree that we should have a state altogether, I still support my fellow yidden.
Frankly, with all the complaints to the zionists, it appears that we can clearly say Gam Zu Latova. As Israel, is the biggest mokom torah and they were the shiluchim.
By the way, with all respect to a previous comment at 11:17 (heresay at this point untill I see it in a sefer).Every Holocaust surviver I have spoken to (especially those that went through the camps) wept tears of joy when the state was declared yiden won in 1948.
the fact is you dont have to be a zionist not to be kofui tov and have somewhat of a hakoras hatov, people dont like to hear it but true gedolim like the ponovizher rov felt (and so did reb chatztkel sarne ) that the medinah even though they oppossed their hashkafah it has many merits mainly being all the torah that comes forth, all the yeshivos and kollelim in eretz yisrael, that is their zechus kiyum being the largest bastion of torah beichus and bekamus, so like it or not the medinah who allows this to flourish is a silent partner in this tremendous zechus, therefore they received the respect to an extent from the ponovizher rav and other gedolim and henceforth the flag was flown, this is alef bais hashkafahs das torah but the world is so warped today they dont get it.
It is a knowen fact that when the great Ponevicher rav was asked
why he dosn’t sit in the kanesset has he had sat in the parmliment in Euorpe, he said that he does not have eough money to buu knew clothing
evry time that he has to rip his clothing over the things that are being done in the Kenesset
David Zafrani Says:
A Trivia Question: What do the colors of the flag represent?
The blue stripes repesent the ticheilis on the tallis and the Magen David is a Jewish symbol which started in late Medieval Prague.
A few years ago I was in doubt about what to do with Yom Haatzmaut. I felt I could not celebrate like the Zionists do, but I felt that I had to aknowledge that something happened. Even if through the hands of the zionists, Hashem, gave our land back to our people!
Just than, the answer came from one of our Gedolim. I happened to hear a story about a secular journalist interviewing HaRav Kahaneman in the early years of the state. Wanting to “expose” his “anti-zionism”, he asked the Rosh Yesivah how did they celebrate Yom Haatzmaut in Poinevitz. The Rosh Yeshiva, with incredible cleverness answered “at Poinevitz we celebrate exactly like Ben Gurion does: no tachnun and no hallel”.
So that’s what I decided to do.
Why can’t we just call it what it is. It is hakaras hatov to the Medinah for giving tens (if not hundreds) of millions of shekel to support people sitting and learning and the poor charedi families. Although many people have problems with the medinah in its current state, is it really wrong one day a year to say “thank you for financially supporting my learning”? If not for the government funding there would be a 10th of the yeshivos open today and the poverty, as bad as it is would be worse. So although you are entitled to disagree with the hashkafos (or lack there of) of the current and past Israeli leadership if you continue to bite the hand that feeds you eventually it will fall off, gut yom tov.
torahis1, You maliciously attacked our Gedolim and by extension every Torah Yid. Do not ask me to fail to defend their great honor.
You implied I said that ALL zionist police are anti-frum. That is in fact false. There are a few good apples in the bunch. As far as the comparison is concerned–need I remind you that the zionists have Hungarian Jewry’s blood on their hand? How they shamelessly prevented their rescuse in order to further their goals of establishing their “medinah”? For that World Jewry can neither forget, nor forgive.
My apologies for bothering you with the historical facts that do not conform to your revisionist history. But don’t let the “mere facts” get in your way.
In Ponovezh, they do say tachanun, and they did say selichos yesterday for behab. The story with the Ponovezher Rav happened when he found himself in another shul on that day, and there was a fight among the members over tachanun or hallel. They asked the choshuva guest, and the line of “Mir vellen tohn ve Ben Gurion, Nisht Hallel und Nisht Tachanun” was the Ponovezher Rav’s pshara to defuse a delicate situation.
We all agree the state of Israel is illigitmate, even the Lubavitcher Rebbe and the Satmar Rav, Rav Yoelish, but now that it is here, Does it need to be destroyed?
I wonder if there is a way to talk about this (and other) topics respectfully?
For those to the right, it would necessitate your look at how quickly you (and me?) sometimes drop your dignity and go to name calling. There may be a place for making fun of reshaim, but perhaps every act of rishus is not done by a rasha. Also, to call names in the presence of those who don’t share your hashkafos is wrong. Even if you were right, you’re wrong.
For those to the left, it would necessitate your willing to slow down on throwing out the ‘sinas chinam’ and ‘lashon hara’ call on every slight to every/any Jew or institution. Even if you’re right (which you may be more often than not), using it as a first line of response is counterproductive. You’ll excuse the comparison, please, but it reminds me of members of another faith group, l’havdil, who tell us that we will burn forever. They don’t get that it’s not that we aren’t afraid of burning forever; we just don’t believe in their rules of how to get there or how to avoid it. So, too, it’s not that people here are eager to speak lashon hara or hate their fellow Jew. They don’t believe that they are doing it, and you don’t help them see it by telling them how rotten they are.
Also, my friends to the left, it would help you to understand that there is a concept of hating evil. I am not claiming that it is perfectly understood or practiced (though I’m guilty of having claimed to be perfectly clean before – an admitted overstatement Moshe Fox), but there is such a concept. “Ohavay Hashem, sinu ra.” “Lovers of Hashem, hate evil.” At the command of Hashem and Moshe, Jews are killed by the aigel. NO NO NO, I’m not even remotely suggesting or hinting that any action is called for in any case today between Jews!!!!! I am saying explicitly that we are not supposed to blindly love all actions. It is not easy to love every Jew while we hate their actions, but it’s not beloved to Hashem to love their evil either.
Dearest Editor, only you and your fellow editors know how much you do (or don’t) consult with Daas Torah, but perhaps the majority of this falls on you for clearer rules of what you do/don’t post as articles and comments.
Respectfully submitted.
kitzur_dot_net Says:
April 24th, 2007 at 9:28 am
please let me know if I’m wrong, but I was told that they don’t say tachanun in Ponovezh on this day.
kitzur, chas vishalom! of course they say tachanun, probably with extra kavana
While following this thread, I have been having a difficult time comprehending many of the comments.
Mr Torahis1 and dontbeagolem (nice name!), Who pays taxes in Eretz Yisroel?… is it only the anti Torah?
Is your house clean?
“virulently attack” ? who are you referring to? yourself?
Chinuch problems,? yep the state religious schools (some even hosting their own police department branch) is a lot better!
What can I say other than, it smells of jealousy.
why don’t u show pictures of all the yeshivas who proudly don’t put up that blue and white rag
Reb Boruch Ber Weismandel, Rosh Yeshiva of Nitra wrote a book called Min Hametzar. There he alludes to the issue of rescue missions being prevented on behalf of Hungarian Jews. Reb Boruch Ber survived the war but remained emotionally sick for the rest of his life because he blamed himself for not doing more in order to help these JEWS, him being of Hungarian lineage. jOSPEH HAS A POINT,,,,,,,we must never forget that and yes, the Zionist have blood on their hands indeed!
corrrection,,,Reb Michoel Ber,,,,
They didn’t teach in zionist schools how the zionists prevented the savng of hundreds of thousands Hungarian Yidden? They forgot to teach how the Nazi’s slowed down the death trains while they waited for the ”lives for trucks” deal they struck to complete? And they failed to mention how the zionists stopped the Jew who was finalizing it from returning to Hungary, and so Eichmann vigirously restarted the death trains after the Jew couldn’t return to finalize?
Or all the other times the zionists prevented Jews beng rescued rom the Nazis, so not to hurt their cause to get a medinah? Oh I see, it must have all been Satmar propoganda trying to make the facts known.
FROCK, WHY ARE YOU CAUSING SO MUCH MACHLOKES IN KLAL YISROEL!!!!
“frock Says:
April 24th, 2007 at 9:09 am
You are making a mistake, it is not proudly flown. It is just flown.
The Ponavasa Rav was not a Zionist. The Rav had his chashbonas on why he flew a flag above the holy yeshiva.”
Joseph.
DOES THE NAME RUDOLPH KASTNER RING A BELL?? He was a true Zionist and rescued many , amongst them the Satmar Rebbe reb Yoilish . wHAT EVER HAPPENED TO HIM ,?
As I live and work in E.Y. I have a great hakoras hatov that the Midina takes a large chunk of my paycheck to fund all sorts of not jewish things.
So if a part of my tax goes to fund yeshivas Ill forgive them
Yehuda Drudgstein,
You wrote:
FROCK, WHY ARE YOU CAUSING SO MUCH MACHLOKES IN KLAL YISROEL!!!!
Please explain the machlokes that i caused.
I just stated the Emmas. The Emmaes must be said.
Nobody should cas vasholem think that the Heillega Ponavicher Rov was a Tziyonie
Aishes Chayil Says:
April 24th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Joseph.
DOES THE NAME RUDOLPH KASTNER RING A BELL??
Is that a real question? I would say it does – Joseph, wasn’t that who you were constantly referring to? The scapegoat of the “Perfidy” trials? BTW do you have any other knowledge besides for that book?
AC – Rudolf Kastner was killed in E. Yisroel after the war, following his conviction in a zionist court for colluding with the nazis (”selling his soul to the devil” in the words of the Israeli court.)
Aishes Chayil: Rudolph Kastner is the ONE who was most guilty of collaboration. See the book “Perfidy” by Ben Hecht, which is not much more than a record of the 1953-57 trial of Malkiel Greenwald for libel against Kastner. The trial proved beyond anyones doubt that Kastner sold the majority of a million Hungarian Jews, and his price was the “Kastner Train” on which 1500-2000 Jews were sent off to Switzerland, after a pit stop in Bergen Belsen. Yes, the Satmar Rav, R’ Yoel was on that train. And several other whom I know personally. We must me very much makir tovah for those who were saved. But look at the cost. Also, you can do some research on Joel and Chantzi Brand and another mission. . . . V”hameyven Yovin. This trial is a matter of public record.
Joseph: Actually, he was never tried. He was killed before they had a chance. But it was the Greenwald trial, where he published the kastner collaboration, and was sued for libel, and acquitted, where all the facts came out.
The Zionists didn’t stop the deal for the trucks, the british and americans did. Read the book “the abandonment of the jews”.
The fact is that eisav sonai yakov and it’s nice to know that in the event of chas vashalom a 1492 there is one place that jews are always welcome.
Well its my understanding that he worked with Eichmann and used his OWN money to buy these Jews and bring them to safety. Apparantly Eichmann allowed him to dress up as an SS officer and took him to BergeN Belsen to trace some people he knew.
Why was he convicted for saving Jews, he should have been awarded?
RE: chaim dov Says:
April 24th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Let’s get real. The “medinah” is a refuge for all of us in times of crisis (e.g., French Jewry). We should be grateful to the Ribbono Shel Olam that HE gave us a place we can call our own. Who knows what the future will bring, even for American Jewry. The Medinah is an “Ir Miklot” for all of us.
Personally, I wouldn’t call a country that has never known a day of peace in its 50+ year life a “haven”, particularly when that country has actively and, at times, forcibly, taken so many of our brethren away from the Torah.
With all due respect, one needs to read up on early Zionist history (and open one’s eyes to its current atrocities against its citizens like Gaza, Amona, et al – and that’s only what makes the papers) before deciding that the medina is such a wonderful thing. Ani Maamin beemuna shileima bivias haMashiach – not in the State of Israel being a place that Hashem gave us to stay – what, then, would be the point of Galus if we already have a place to stay?
re: Aishes Chayil and Rudolph Kastner
Yes, many of us have heard of Rudolph Kastner, from, among other sources, “Perfidy” by American screenwriter Ben Hecht, which, by the way, is banned in Israel. Why?
Might “Perfidy” be banned because it describes many proofs to why the State of Israel ,in its attempt to defend Kastner, ended up being proven to be Nazi collaborators along with Kastner? It’s a story worthy of Stephen King, IMHO. See Joseph’s comments above as well.
My view: If you live and work there, Israel does “protect” you, so it would seem that some hakaras hatov is due. If you don’t live there, why would you celebrate someone else’s July 4th?
Matt Ecstein wrote:
Please explain the machlokes that i caused.
I just stated the Emmas. The Emmaes must be said.
Nobody should cas vasholem think that the Heillega Ponavicher Rov was a Tziyonie
Obviously the Flag had the approval of the Rosh Hayeshivos. If it would have not been done proudly it would have been hung “Half Staffed”! So all you accomplished by your post was causing all this bickering, controversy and Machlokes in Klal Yisroel!!!!!!!!
after seeing so many ‘brilliant comments’ I think I am gonna hang a white flag on my house………mee kiamchoh yisroel!!!!!!!!!!
what is going on? What is yom hoatzmut anyway. i never heard of it.
They call it DEGEL – Davar HaGorem L’mamon.
midwesterner – The Greenwald trial did take place before Kastner was killed by a holocaust survivor.
Oh vays mir – The zionists tricked him into leaving Turkey and going to Palestine where the masered on him to have the British arrest him. This was done to prevent him from getting back to Hungary and completing the deal to save the Hungarian Jewish lives. The zionists felt it would not be helpful towards getting their “medinah” by letting him save Hungarian Jewry.
And is there anyplace in the world that Jews inhabit today that is LESS safe than Israel? It is in Israel only that homicide and other killers attack Jews endlessly. The zionist dream of a “safehaven” is an utter and complete failure.
torahis1 – I will continue to defend the Torah Yidden from the mailicous attacks on them by your ilk.
Fox – I don’t see any contradiction. Here you have a zionist himself admitting the crimes the zionists commited in effectively collaborating with the Nazi’s. For the anti-zionists to use that, does not contradict not using their celebrating their reckless founding of the medinah.
torahis1,
The points you raise are always interesting, but I do wish this one was worded with more derech eretz to a fellow Jew, even if you don’t agree with him.
In one short post, you included about an insult per sentence. Reading between that, I can tell you are a really thoughtful and intelligent person. Why take away from that by “verbally spitting” on another? I mean no disrespect, and I hope you take this with the goodwill that it was written with.
It’s called DEGEL – Davar HaGorem L’mamon.
“Blue & White rag…” (sic) Zionist smionist. That statement is as offensive as seeing an arab send the US flag up in flames.
Fox says;
Interesting how Ben Hecht’s Perfidy is held in such high esteem by the anti-Zionist crowd (never mind that Hecht himself was a Zionist), but the same crowd never quotes from another Hecht work – A Flag is Born – celebrating the founding of Medinat Yisrael.
Aishes Chayil says:
Why is that so hard to understand? The theme in Ben Hecht’s Perfidy suits their arguement whereas the Medinah goes against their principles! It is simple,
The same way those who are Anti Chareidi only recognize the Ultra Frum when it comes to Hatzoloh or Chevra K’ or any other orginazation initiated by Chareidim which is oppertune for them! Simple case of ‘picking and choosing’
urbmase – ged is correct. It is a rag, useful as a floor mat in the bais hakiseh. This position has been taken by many Gedolei Yisroel.
torahis1 – that is what you say when you lost the argument on the merits. The bottom line is you attacked Bnei Torah by besmirching them by the acts of a few. You have no right to attack them for someone else’s deeds. That is hatred at its most instinctive nature.
The Magen David a “rag.” For is not that what is pronounced loudly on that “rag.” Perhaps it is your “black hat” that is the rag.
torahis1 – I do not stand on my own pedestal calling the zionists to the carpet for collaborating with the Nazis and working overtime to prevent the rescue of millions of Yiddishe neshamos from the Nazi gehenim. I merely rely on the Gedolei Yisroel who have countless times pointed out the facts (that you do not like seeing.) The Satmar Rebbe himself, a giant of the giants who along with Rav Ahron Kotler made Torah in America what it is today, made these very same points.
And although I WELCOME questions, the buck stops when you attack Torah Yidden. And it is the irresponsible statements of you and your ilk, like placing the blame of some pathetic protesters on the shoulders of all of Torah Yidden that distances many holy neshomos from the Torah, and sends them away from Yiddishkeit.
Let’s get real. The “medinah” is a refuge for all of us in times of crisis
remember that the day before is yom hazikaron for over 20,000 is this the safest refuge?
in what other country has that many jews been killed during peace??
and in case chas veshalom of real war today……
r we realy safe???
IM HASHEM LO YISHMOR IR SHAV SHAKAD SHOMER
Perhaps it is your “black hat” that is the rag.
And with that………the comments are CLOSED.
(Please don’t call my beautiful, brand-spankin’-new bencraft borsalino a “rag”.)