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YWN Coffee Room » Decaffeinated Coffee » Controversial Topics

Are Women Really Jewish?

(148 posts)
  • Started 3 years ago by popa_bar_abba
  • Latest reply from RebYidd23

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  1. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    oomis:

    OK back to square one (that's what 42 intended). So according to your (???) logic, goyim are more Jewish then Jews. They don't need the mitzvohs that Jews do! Yisraelim are more holy than Kohanim, they don't require those additional 'reminders'...

    Let me try to reiterate (again..)
    The little Chazal I've come across CLEARLY state the opposite. A person's Jewishness (halachakly) is evaluated by his/her Mitzvah OBLIGATION status. In the order a man says birchas hashachar. (goy, eved isha) - indeed that is the REASON for those brochos. A (real) Jewish woman, feeling a longing for this loss, submits her longing to HaShem's decision, and says Sheasani Kirtzono. Any other attempt to misinterpret, misconstrue its real meaning is just that.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. ønegºª£™
    Best buds with Dennis Savard

    Didn't Rashi's daughters wear tefilin?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. zaidy78
    Member

    Is your left hand worse than you right hand? After all your right hand is stronger, you write with the right hand, so who needs left hands? Are left hands even part of the human body? Would you prefer two right hands and no left hands??

    Just as the left compliments the right hand, so to a woman compliments a man? Does that make women any less? Of course not! They just have a different task in life, equally (or even more) important, just different!!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. charlie brown
    Member

    There are about 3.5 Billion women in the world and most are not Jewish so I think we can use a Rov to pasken that women are not Jewish.
    --Mod 42

    I don't get it. If most of the women in the world are not jewish, why do you need a rabbi to pasken that women aren't jewish?
    (just kidding. I'm not really THAT dense).

    Also, thanks for reviving this hilarious thread. I missed it the first time around.

    Popa,
    its been a while since you started a thread like this, what's pshat?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. kapusta
    CR Queen - “Best of luck. Avoid roasted cabbage, don’t eat earwax, and look on the bright side of life!”

    I don't want to get involved in a debate now but I'll say this anyway.

    oomis, are you translating higher level as more Jewish? I don't know that anyone is more Jewish than someone else, either someone is or isn't. A higher level is definitely possible.

    ZK, did you get that comment at the super belittling and condescending post store?

    *kapusta*

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. midwesterner
    Member

    To Zaidy78: I don't mean to be the grammar police, but there is a world of difference between compliment and complement. I'm sure you meant the latter.

    I don't know much about women complimenting a man, most can probably live without it. But I do know that if a man forgets to compliment a woman, watch out!!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Popa,
    its been a while since you started a thread like this, what's pshat?

    All my threads are like this. You just don't even realize it anymore.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. charlie brown
    Member

    All my threads are like this. You just don't even realize it anymore.

    they're all funny but something about this one was just a cut above!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. charlie brown
    Member

    Popa,
    based on the logic of your OP it would seem that baby boys until they are a few years old and capable of doing mitzvos are not jewish either. Why don't they need geirus?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    How many of the 613 can ANY of us actually keep, anyway? Wouldn't that make all Jews not-Jewish?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. snjn
    Member

    News flash: Being Jewish does not depend on some external mitzvas like tefilin and tzitzit. Being jewish is based on having a jewish neshama by being born to a jewish mother or converting. When the yidden stood at Har Sinai and accepted the Torah, they became Jews, men and women alike. All their descendants are jewish provided they hadn't married a non jewish woman.
    In any case, this topic, like so many others in the coffee room is just looking for another way to demean women, as them being "less than". That's the real obsession here.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    snjn: I wouldn't call mitzvohs 'external'. No, they're what in fact makes us Jewish. Remember where we became Jews? Yeah, the place we said נעשה ונשמע. Where HaShem said ועתה אם שמוע תשמעו בקולי. That was when HaShem "flashed us His news".

    Furthermore, a bit of reading Chazal indeed reveal to us that it's as I wrote.

    This topic was a 'troll' not to demean any gender. The OP could be a woman for all I know.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    News flash: Being Jewish does not depend on some external mitzvas like tefilin and tzitzit.

    As zeeskite rightly pointed out, mitzvos are not external. Maybe that is why you have trouble understanding this.

    Being jewish is based on having a jewish neshama by being born to a jewish mother or converting.

    What is a Jewish mother? Aren't all mothers women? I don't know what you are talking about.

    based on the logic of your OP it would seem that baby boys until they are a few years old and capable of doing mitzvos are not jewish either. Why don't they need geirus?

    Because they have a bris.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. binahyeseira
    Too cool to ask for a new subtitle

    Barack Obama and Bill Clinton are men.

    Barack Obama and Bill Clinton are not Jewish.

    Therefore, men are not Jewish.

    Simple logic!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. binahyeseira
    Too cool to ask for a new subtitle

    actually, i'd like to point out the fact that women are actually on a higher level than men. Every day of the first 6 days Hashem created creatures that were on a higher level than the days before. On the 6th day after creating everything else Hashem created man. everything before that was created for the purpose of serving man.
    ...drumroll....for the important part....
    women were created AFTER men -
    obviously, man was put there first to serve women.
    as mod. 42 says, "simple logic"

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. snjn
    Member

    What I meant by "external" mitzvah was simply that the examples he gave were only of mitzvahs that are obvious for all to see when they are kept. Mitvas like Shabbos, kashrus, taharas hamishpacha, believing in Hashem, mitzvos bain adam lachavairo, brochos, etc. where women are equally michuyav. In fact, there are SEVEN mitzvos that women are not mechuyav in and the OP chose to harp on those. That gives a cursory glance at the obvious (external) mitzvos of men and says those are conditions of being a Jew.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    "oomis, are you translating higher level as more Jewish? I don't know that anyone is more Jewish than someone else, either someone is or isn't. A higher level is definitely possible. "

    Nope. I don't. But based on the troll thinking around here, it seems some men apparently think that way about Jewish women. Just because someone does more mitzvos or certain mitzvos not incumbernt on someone else, does not make them "more" Jewish. But if the guys want to go that route, I have to point out that Jewish women do not need to do those mitzvos in order to be on that same high madreiga, because women are spiritually stronger to begin with. :)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. midwesterner
    Member

    Bina Yeseira: Does that mean that a pair of plyers is more choshuv than even a woman?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. midwesterner
    Member

    One could also say, according to the opinion that "Dyo partuzufin bara b'Adam" that man was indeed the final creation, and the woman was removed from him. Cleansing him, if you will.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. midwesterner
    Member

    And to snjn: Sometimes Popa's trolling is very subtle and hard to detect. But this thread has it right there in the title!! (At least the recently modified title.)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    snjn:
    Once again, women are Mechuyav in ALL mitzvhos be it obvious or not, external or not. They're exempt , as all know, from "mitzvos assay shehazman gerama", time-dependent positive commandments, internal or external, obvious or not. That is THE SOLE difference.

    I've been reading about this "hidden/private mitzvohs" thing here time and again, it's just nonsense. (or someone's erroneous 'internal' whim)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. charlie brown
    Member

    Because they have a bris.

    The bris was while they were still goyim. How does that help them become a ger later on?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Popa,
    its been a while since you started a thread like this, what's pshat?

    Happy now?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. coffee addict
    having withdrawal symptoms

    maybe women become Jewish when they get married (hence the name Kiddushin) (It could answer up how it's not boel aramis)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. charlie brown
    Member

    Happy now?

    ha! I posted on one of the threads that you started tonight that the real Popa threads are back! I hadn't seen this at the time.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. So like most of you I hope, my first thought on seeing this thread was, "That's funny, I know they act like goyim and don't follow the Torah and do the mitzvos like us, but of course they're jewish." However, recently, my wife who's doing Daf HaSha'ah showed me a Tosfos in Qiddushin who quotes a gemara in Sotah that clearly holds they're not. [The Tosfos itself was kinda interesting till I realized I might be a gayr] Those who follow the Rambam will of course throw this out with the baby but for the rest of us.

    The Gemara (Sotah 37b [Of course I didn't look it up] says that at Har Sinai the Bnei Yisrael Took on 603,550 covenants as guarantors for each other. Tosfos derives from this that they did not become guarantors for the Eirev Rav. The obvious next step is that they also did not become guarantors for the women. ודוק ותמצא קל.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Popa
    You are due for another one of these brilliant threads. :-)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  28. interjection
    in·ter·jec·tion noun 1. an abrupt remark, made esp. as an aside or interruption

    A Sheep: maybe the husbands and fathers were motzei their women

    Posted 2 years ago #
  29. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Since we're reviving Popa classics...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    We are always reviving Popa classics

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    And changing the titles back to the originals?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    not always that part

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. RebYidd23
    Not really home-schooled in the hard knocks of where it says "post"

    Jewish women are definitely Jewish, even if the definition of "Jewish woman" is a women who can give birth to a Jew.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  34. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    Ashkenazic women, according to genetic research, have essentially gentile genetic markers, unlike Ashkenazic men, whose mitochondrial DNA has many similarities to that of Sephardic men, showing more Jewish continuity among Jewish men than women.

    Those early Ashkenazic female converts didn't have conversions accepted by the Rabbanut and the RCA, therefore, they must be goyim gamurim.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  35. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    So one minute, boys become Jewish at 8 days old and girls are born Jewish? Or girls become Jewish at bas mitzvah?

    Posted 10 months ago #
  36. Gamanit
    recently upgraded to a wireless keyboard

    WIY- I guess boys who cannot have a bris milah just aren't jewish :).

    Posted 10 months ago #
  37. sharp
    sharper than a serpent's tooth

    I think rebdoniel is in agreement with pba here.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  38. RebYidd23
    Not really home-schooled in the hard knocks of where it says "post"

    A Jewish woman is either a woman who is Jewish or a Jew who is female. Even if, as you claim, women have no real role in Judaism, they are still Jewish women. And about your long-ago car analogy: Anyone can make a car if they know how. It's a learned skill. If a non-Jewish woman has proper training, can she give birth to a Jew?

    Posted 10 months ago #
  39. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    I lead services in a dying shul; sadly, we sometimes get more women than men, and since we need a minyan, essentially, their presence is useless and constitutes little more than kiddush freeloading.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  40. writersoul
    postersheart

    rebdoniel: Women can't daven? Just because they can't do what you need them to do doesn't mean that they're freeloading.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  41. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    writersoul
    Dont let him get away with it.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  42. squeak
    Makes smalltalk with the two most sandy ectoplasmic beings on Earth (not to mention the Man on the Moon).

    Theres a reason why a kiddush is meant to be just herring kichel and slivovitz. Keeps away freeloading women. If you serve salad at a kiddush and have pretty cakes as centerpieces youve dug your own grave.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  43. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Rd, since I don't now you and have no benefit from you, should I say that your existence is useless and that you're an olam hazeh freeloader?

    I think you should rethink this one.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  44. RD- would you prefer that these women NOT come to shul, daven b'tzibur and hear Krias hatorah?

    Posted 10 months ago #
  45. jewishfeminist02
    jewishfeminist01 + jewishfeminist02

    The reason women can't count in a minyan is that minyan is a tikun for the aveirah of the meraglim, and the meraglim were men. But women who participate in minyanim should not be viewed as "useless", insignificant, or peripheral. Hashem hears the prayer of the tzibur as a whole.

    Incidentally, rebdoniel, I don't know how it is in your shul, but in my shul it is always a woman who sets up and cleans up the kiddush, regardless of who sponsors it.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  46. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    shkoyach writersoul. I don't think I was spaced in last time this was bumped. Give to him over the head, with a rolling pin.

    Posted 4 days ago #
  47. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    We should index these classic threads, not just the altah bochur ones.

    Posted 4 days ago #
  48. RebYidd23
    Not really home-schooled in the hard knocks of where it says "post"

    This thread should not be open. It is complete.

    Posted 4 days ago #

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