ashkenaz

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  • #1419369

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Did the Yidden originate in middle eastern countries? We’re there ashkenaz jews living in Europe? How did the skin tone change from dark to light and blue eyes?

    #1419476

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The study if Mummies has shows that Arab-like physical features were not always standard across those regions. There’s good reason to believe that the current trend is the result of the Arabs spreading out to all of those countries with the invention of Islam. There are Sphardim who were in the middle east for centuries, and still have pale skin and non-dark hair.

    #1419512

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ashkenaz is Germany.

    Some say the Ashkenazim came from Eretz Yisroel while the Sephardim came from Bovel.

    Ashkenazim are not, and were not, by and large, light hair and blue eyes.

    #1419696

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Ashkenaz is not only Germany medinos ashkenaz refers to area around as well. Besides whatever the reason is I’m talking about the pale skin not just eye color. Was Yosef hatzaddik born fair skin?
    Does intermarriage have to do with these Gene’s nowadays?
    Why is it also that reform and intermarriage come mostly from ashkenaz. Why is there an inclination to that? It’s embarrassing.

    #1419895

    Joseph
    Participant

    Syrian Sephardim, Russian Ashkenazim, Polish Jews, etc don’t have much of a difference in skin color.

    #1420438

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    @joseph you keep giving me examples as if they prove against my point. That’s like saying not all fruits are round a banana is curved or a starfruit has a weird shape. We know there are exceptions I’m talking about the general picture here. Besides your example is pretty weak since polish and Russian are generally pale white with light skin tone and blue/green eyes and are both ashkenaz so I don’t see how that proves anything.
    How did ashkenaz come about to have totally different features is it climate? Genes? How did the genes come about if Jews originated in Iraq and around that area? Egypt was pretty hot too.
    And why the inclination to reform and assimilation intermarriage? Are sephardim stronger in Yiddishkeit naturally? Even the “less frum” who are “traditional”.
    We basically invented sheitels as well which even back in Europe many gedoilim we’re opposed to. Sephardim always wore a head covering and mostly till this day unless they copy ashkenaz traditions.

    #1420550

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ashkenaz and Sephard have no significant differences in body features or skin.

    Regarding Yiddishkeit, 50% of the Sephardim shmadded to Christianity during the Inquisition, leading up to the Spanish expulsion.

    #1420591

    yytz
    Participant

    There are many Palestinians, other Arabs, Iranians, Afghans, etc. with blue eyes. Some of them have pretty light skin too.

    Ashkenazi Jews are probably descended from Middle Eastern and/or Babylonian Jews, but they were in Europe for over a thousand years, more like 1500 years. That is enough time for the average skin color to change (and eyes and hair too, since skin, eye hair genes are related), for health reasons. Even so, most Ashkenazim have dark hair and many have olive or dark skin (though many are very pale). Blue eyes are common but not the vast majority.

    When a single couple has several children, because of natural genetic variation some will be lighter and some will be darker. In far Northern climates, darker skinned people will not get as much Vitamin D, and will sometimes have health problems or be generally sickly as a result, while the light-skinned will be healthier, and thus more likely on average to have children and successfully raise them and keep them alive. A few dozen generations is potentially enough time for the shift toward lighter skin to take place.

    Genetic studies also suggest that Ashkenazim were descended in part from converts from Southern Europe, especially Italy, and to a much smaller degree from Western and Eastern Europe. This is not surprising, since Jews have attracted converts wherever they have lived. It may have happened at a somewhat larger scale in Ancient Rome.

    #1420592

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    I guess you’re right Joseph. Ashkenaz are usually not pale white with lighter hair color or different eye color. And sephardim usually not dark skin with dark hair and brown eye color. When you look at it that way then ya you got a good point there buddy. There are no significant difference in skin color or features. After all light pale skin is the same as dark brown skin and blue green eyes are the same as brown eyes. Also light color hair is the same as jetblack. Thanks for sharing your genius with the world.

    #1420593

    mdd1
    Participant

    Joseph, I read that actually the Ashkenazim came from Bovel and Sefardim – from Eretz Yisroel.

    #1420600

    mdd1
    Participant

    Litvishchossid, most Russian and Polish Jews do not have blue/green eyes.

    #1420605

    GAON
    Participant

    Litvish,

    “We basically invented sheitels as well which even back in Europe many gedoilim we’re opposed to. Sephardim always wore a head covering and mostly till this day unless they copy ashkenaz traditions.”

    This not the case, as Peah Nuchris has been worn in thetimes of the early Achronim – in the times of the Shiltie Giborim who was a Sephardi . See more on the below posts:

    Natural-Hair Sheitels Are Assur

    #1420606

    GAON
    Participant

    “Regarding Yiddishkeit, 50% of the Sephardim shmadded to Christianity during the Inquisition, leading up to the Spanish expulsion.”
    Joseph,

    Where exactly did you get that number? 50%?

    #1420607

    mdd1
    Participant

    Litvisherchossid, most Ashkenazim don’t have light hair. Darker skin color is more prevalent in people from southern, sunny countries. As simple as that.

    #1420608

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Guys I know that not every ashkenaz looks like the Aryan race. Whatever it may be, the bottom line is you can pretty easily tell who is sephardim and who is ashkenaz based on how they look. Repeatedly giving examples of exceptions to the fact proves nothing.

    Besides why were/are ashkenaz more inclined to reform, intermarriage, sheitels(even though some Gedolei ashkenaz were opposed to) assimilation. I know it can happen on sephardim side as well but they always boast how they were always at least traditional and kept to marrying only Yidden. Do they have a point and if so what is the reason that it is that way?

    #1420609

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Sefardim by and large did not intermarry and didn’t take in a lot of Geirim. So why do they look like those around them?
    Sefardim look like the people in the countries they lived in because, just like Yaakov trimmed branches to look spotted, striped etc, people after generations look like the surrounding indigenous people. I heard this from my Rebbele.
    What color was the tone of the skin of the Avos? Moshe Rabbeinu? Look in Rashi on the Chumash (Bereishis 12:12). Elimelech and his people were white (see Sifsei Chachomim Ibid)

    #1420620

    mdd1
    Participant

    Litvisherchossid, I have what to answer about the Yiddishkeit part, but we are dealing with a shailah of limud kategoria on Klal Yisroel. So, it has to be a really valid reason for us to speak about it.

    #1420624

    GAON
    Participant

    “but they always boast how they were always at least traditional and kept to marrying only Yidden. ”

    That is true, you will rarely find a Atheist Sephardi. I assume, Ashknazim started going down the hill with the Haskalah, which originated along the secular non-jew as well, and advanced as the goyish society become more open and advanced as well. There is a reason why it succeeded in Germany.
    Whereas, in Sephardi regions, the non-jew was much more reilgious as well.
    You should read the Meshech Chachma in Parshas Bechukosei how he explains the issue of anti-Semitism.

    #1420627

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    @mdd you mean the reform inclination? If your reason will help change the pattern then it might be worth hearing.

    #1420628

    GAON
    Participant

    Baltimore,
    True, in fact the Talmud in Sotah (I think Rashi quotes it Parshas Naso) states regarding a Sotah who was innocent, that part of the reward is that her children will be “white”

    #1420633

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Is it also a possibility that there are just more ashkenaz than sephardim in America and the world in general? Therefore greater numbers or looks as if the majority of these things come from ashkenaz?

    #1420649

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Litvish, the premise you’re basing all of this on is that the Jews should naturally have dark skin. Like I said before, this is baseless. The reason the middle east has dark skin now is because one region mixed with all the others after Islam and dark skin tends to be a more dominant gene.

    Multiple posters have pointed out to you that certain groups of Sphardim are not particularly distinguishable from Ashkenazim. You seem to be zeroing in on a Teimani/Mizrachi stereotype to define all Sphardim. Sphardim from Morocco, Egypt, Rhodes, and Turkey are not brown skinned (obviously some might be).

    #1420656

    akuperma
    Participant

    Based on DNA, it appears most Ashkenazim originated in the Middle East. There were many converts in ancient times, but apparently more female than male converts (that might be due to the loss of civil rights a male would have in converting, as well as bris), but not all that many converts since the rise of Christianity (which made conversion to Judaism a capital offense). We have enough Middle Eastern ancestry that Europeans have always perceived Jews as looking like people from the middle east (suggesting the rate of conversion wasn’t very high once we arrived in Europe). The Sefardim also had some converts (again , before the rise of Chiristianity and Islam), but they would have been largely middle eastern looking.

    #1420661

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ashkenazi kohanim and Sephardi kohanim have the same male DNA.

    Gaon: The 50% conversion rate to Christianity is a historical figure known to Klal Yisroel for centuries. It isn’t under dispute or controversial. (Incidentally, I think secular accounts also use this approximate figure.)

    Regarding Reform, intermarriage and commitment to Yiddishkeit, the weak among the Sephardim already converted to Christianity, so the Sephardim that are left are the strong ones in terms of Yiddishkeit since their weak already left. The Ashkenazic weak left Yiddishkeit hundreds of years after the Sephardim, when the Reform/haskala came to town.

    There are many millions of more Ashkenazim today than Sephardim.

    None of this, unfortunately, is shocking. 80% of Klal Yisroel was wiped out in Eretz Mitzrayim during the makkos, for being too weak in Yiddishkeit. And when Moshiach comes they’ll be another cleansing with 80% again being wiped out. The seforim say this.

    Regarding the looks, who is to say whether the “Ashkenazic look” today closer resembles the look of Yidden during the time of the Beis HaMikdash, or if today’s Sephardim are a closer semblance. No one knows. Assuming even there’s much of a difference in looks. Frankly, most people couldn’t tell whether a Yid is of German Ashkenazic extraction or of Syrian Sephardic extraction, if both are wearing the same black Borsalino and suit.

    #1420696

    slominer
    Participant

    “What color was the tone of the skin of the Avos? Moshe Rabbeinu? Look in Rashi on the Chumash (Bereishis 12:12). Elimelech and his people were white (see Sifsei Chachomim Ibid)”

    “the Talmud in Sotah (I think Rashi quotes it Parshas Naso) states regarding a Sotah who was innocent, that part of the reward is that her children will be “white”

    We can, thus, rightfully conclude that our ancestors from Avrohom Avinu on were white skinned people?

    #1420697

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    @Neville ChaimBerlin “the premise you’re basing all of this on is that the Jews should naturally have dark skin”
    Well, as far as I can assume the middle eastern climate was always pretty hot, and was harder to get out of the sun back then and people were mostly outside, travelling, bathing, laundry, anything you can think of. So naturally sun makes people pretty dark.

    Btw you mention most egyptians and moroccans are not dark? That is absolutely wrong most ARE dark. Even the ones who are light skin usually do not look ashkenaz. Their facial features are different. Also even though not all ashkenaz have light hair and green eyes, pretty much all sephardim do not.

    I really dont get how people here cant tell apart an ashkenaz or sephardi based on looks I mean its usually pretty obvious. Not saying anyone is better than the other we jut have different features.

    @Joseph-“Frankly, most people couldn’t tell whether a Yid is of German Ashkenazic extraction or of Syrian Sephardic extraction, if both are wearing the same black Borsalino and suit”.
    -Uhh rightt…also you do know syrian are not the only sephardi group so not quite sure why you keep bringing up the same exception to the rule.
    @Joseph-“And when Moshiach comes they’ll be another cleansing with 80% again being wiped out. The seforim say this”.
    -Really? What seforim say 80%? Isnt there also a concept of teshuva? 80% sounds real high. There are also opinions that say the war will not involve Yidden.

    Also if there are “millions” more ashkenaz than sephardim, is there a reason for that? I thought sephardim always had pretty big families as well, there were a lot of countries sephardim came from as well as ashkenazim.

    #1420720

    Joseph
    Participant

    You keep repeating your boich svoros about why you think Yidden back in the times of the Beis HaMikdash were darker skinned.

    There’s absolutely no basis in reality to that theory of yours.

    #1420747

    mdd1
    Participant

    Joseph, there is a mishna in Negoim which says that a Yid’s skin is lighter than an African’s skin, but darker than that of a German.
    Litvishechossid, #1 spelling everything out won’t help anything, so, I am keeping quiet; #2 the Iranian Jews also look like Ashkenazim.

    #1420746

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    when did i ever mention the beis hamikdash in this conversation? There were like 3000 years of life before the beis hamikdash

    #1420815

    tiawd
    Participant

    The mishna in Nega’im (2:1) which mdd quoted is: רבי ישמעאל אומר, בני ישראל, אני כפרתן, הרי הן כאשכרוע, לא שחורים ולא לבנים, אלא בינוניים.
    I don’t know what color אשכרוע wood is, but it would seem that most Ashkenazim are lighter than that and many Yemenites, for example, are darker. We see also that the mishna in Nedarim (3:8) says: הנודר משחורי הראש אסור בקירחים ובבעלי שיבות ומותר בנשים ובקטנים שאין נקראין שחורי הראש אלא אנשים.
    The Rav explains:
    שאין נקראים שחורי הראש אלא אנשים – לפי שהאנשים פעמים מכסים ראשם ופעמים מגלים ומשחרות ראשם ניכר שהם אנשים, אבל נשים לעולם הולכות וראשם מכוסה. והקטנים בין זכרים בין נקבות הולכין בגילוי הראש ואינם ניכרים בין זכר לנקבה, ומשום הכי לא אקרו שחורי הראש אלא האנשים הגדולים:
    Clearly the vast majority of Jews in the time of Chazal had black hair. Probably influxes of geirim and changes of climates have changed the appearance of many modern Jews. DNA tests of many different Jewish populations have suggested that we all share Middle Eastern ancestry.

    #1420782

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    litvish, a lot of answers to your question can come from learning history- I’ll present some very simplistic generalizations to explain:
    when Jews were in a comfortable galus, with lots of materialism, and earned high status among the goyim, who were also cultured, they were more likely to assimilate- that applies to Germany during the enlightenment, and also to Spain during the Inquisition- when faced with the choice of death, expulsion, or conversion, many chose to convert- either truly or in pretense, since it was very hard to give up what they had, and leaving meant a very unsafe, uncertain future. The fate of those who choose expulsion was not pretty. Within a few generations, even those who initially converted in pretense were lost to klal yisroel. After that, Yotzei Sefard did not achieve the sort of status they had in Spain in their new countries, the goyim around them kept them very separate, and were not exactly cultured, which could explain the lack of assimilation. Jews of Eastern Europe who were kept separate from the goyim, who lived lives of severe deprivation and who would never admired the goyim around them, chose to die or flee (when possible) rather than convert. That shifted dramatically in Communist Russia, of course, which may be the most dramatic example of a whole population of Jews losing their Yiddishkeit, except for a few yehidim. So it has nothing to do with ashkenaz vs sefard, but rather with the circumstance of the galus.

    Interestingly, if you take 2 hypothetical Russian brothers of early 20th century. One stayed in Russia, one left to America. Look at the grandkids or great-grandkids of those brothers- say both made aliya in the 1990s. Standing in line at passport control at the airport, you will definitely be able to tell them apart, even though as cousins, they share some genetic background. Those who grew up in Russia will look Russian, those in America, will no longer have those Russian features. Environment, diet have a lot to say about how we look, as does who the brothers and their children married.

    #1420825

    akuperma
    Participant

    Of course Ashkenazim tend to be lighter skinned that Jews in the Middle East. Most converts in Europe were quite pale, whereas most converts in the Middle East looked like the Jews in ancient times (who were from the same reason). An added factor might be that Jews with lighter skin and blond hair had a better chance surviving pogroms that darker European Jews.

    The reason there are more Ashkenazim is that during the last few centuries the areas where Ashkenazim lived had a good economy and improvements in medicine, triggering a population explosion. Four hundred years ago the numbers were roughly equal. A thousand years ago, Ashkenazim were a small minority.

    But in all fairness, people in the Middle East don’t look all that different than ones from Europe, and in general humans are pretty much similar. There is about as much genetic diversity among humans as among poodles (some dark, some light, some big, some small, but all poodles). This tends to support our view that humanity has only been around a short time.

    #1420868

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I really dont get how people here cant tell apart an ashkenaz or sephardi based on looks I mean its usually pretty obvious. Not saying anyone is better than the other we jut have different features.”

    The reason you don’t get it is because you’ve clearly only been exposed to a certain subset of the Sphardi world that is very distinguishable and has dark skin, which, by the way, are probably technically Mizrachi/Bucharian and it’s a misnomer to call them Sphardi. So, both sources and corpses indicate that your darkness theory is false, but you cling to it. Your sole evidence is “the middle east is hot.” You realize there are other hot areas with white people, right?

    And, really? Because it sure seems like you’re arguing one group is better than the other:
    “Why is it also that reform and intermarriage come mostly from ashkenaz. Why is there an inclination to that? It’s embarrassing.”
    “Are sephardim stronger in Yiddishkeit naturally? Even the “less frum” who are “traditional”.
    We basically invented sheitels as well which even back in Europe many gedoilim we’re opposed to. Sephardim always wore a head covering and mostly till this day unless they copy ashkenaz traditions.”

    #1420893

    Redleg
    Participant

    1500 years is far to short a time period for natural selection to produce significant numbers of blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned Jews. That so many Ashkenazik Jews match such a description is most likely the same reason that there were no red-haired Irishmen until the Viking invasion, i.e. interbreeding with Northern Europeans through conversion, annus, and shmad.

    #1421152

    mdd1
    Participant

    Redleg, according to you how the difference in looks between different nations came about? It has not been that long since the time of Noach.

    #1421244

    Joseph
    Participant

    litvisherchosid: You are still confusing Sephardim (i.e. those who come from the expulsion from Sephard) with Mizrachis (i.e. those who were in the Arab and African lands even before the Spanish expulsion.)

    #1421277

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Actually guys and gals I’m writing from an ashkenaz perspective so NO, I am not being one sided or saying sephardim are better. Just want to know if there is truth to what the other side boasts about.
    And regardless of all the pretty answers given here, the bottom line is that originally the skin tone of Yidden was darker and not pale white as someone here quoted the Talmud. And I can understand that it changed but when you look at Latinos, blacks, Chinese/asian, indian, Arabs, Africans, and so on, you see that they have had the same skin tone and features from day one.
    Why is it that only Yidden changed and they haven’t. Have they not had intermarriage?
    Besides I was wondering if ashkenaz jews skin tone became lighter over the years naturally or was a result of intermarriage which is disappointing. Is 1500 years enough to totally change ones skin tone and features naturally? When I say features I also mean hair, as in lightly haired or heavily vehamaivin yavin.
    I’m just asking these questions because I once heard a dispute where sephardim were discussing amongst themselves how that sephardi is the original nusach of yisrael since the origins of yidden are of sephardi/mizrachi countries.
    So I guess the real question is how did ashkenaz nusach come about and was the sephardi mizrachi nusach really the original and does it trace back to those times?
    Didn’t the shevatim each have there own nusach so how would that work?

    #1421503

    slominer
    Participant

    “the bottom line is that originally the skin tone of Yidden was darker and not pale white as someone here quoted the Talmud.”

    You keep repeating this but it isn’t correct. The Yidden’s skin color was not darker originally.

    “sephardi is the original nusach of yisrael”

    Not accurate.

    “the origins of yidden are of sephardi/mizrachi countries.”

    Not true either. Our origins are not from Spain, Portugal, Morocco, Persia, Yemen or Libya.

    “So I guess the real question is how did ashkenaz nusach come about and was the sephardi mizrachi nusach really the original and does it trace back to those times?”

    The Sephardi Nusach or havara is no more correct than the Ashkenazi Nusach or havara.

    #1421572

    mdd1
    Participant

    Litvishechossid, i did not want to talk about it, but if it is necessary, i will. First of all, it is best to avoid these type of arguments for the sake of sholom, but if there is a need to answer/know for yourself:
    1. Reform? Non-erlache Sefardim can be Reform without declaring themselves Reform — they just go and do anything they want without much explanation or attempting to justify themselves;
    2. Sheitels? Some Sedardi Poskim allowed them also. Plus, it is better to use a sheitel than go with uncovered hair, you know. Also, prancing around immodestly dressed is not okay either.
    3. There never was intermarriage by frum Ashkenazim. By frei there was. Yes, it is true Sefardim usually have inborn emunah and warm feelings towards Torah and mitzvos, but they ‘compensate” by being lax in keeping it.
    4.Rosh wrote that we, the Ashkenazim, have a strong mesorah from the times of the Beis Ha’Mikdash.

    edited

    #1421730

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Reform is an actual “hashkafa” so sephardim who “do whatever they want” arent necessarily reform they are just not frum. A person can be non religious but believe in the orthodox way. So I disagree completely.

    Why do you mention wearing a sheitel is better than no sheitel at all? You say it as if the alternative to sheitel is nothing. The alternative is head covering. Besides with nowadays sheitels Im not too sure that they are better than walking around with uncovered hair. They are so long and with so much volume that most women cant even wear their hair like that naturally. Many sheitels really should be a Sheilas Rav with the ones being made today.
    “Also, prancing around immodestly dressed is not okay either”.
    -Umm what does that have to do with sephardim that goes for everyone?
    “There never was intermarriage by frum Ashkenazim. By frei there was”.
    -Isnt it obvious that a frum person wouldnt intermarry? I mean I get that there are people who fail but are they still considered “frum”? Thanks for stating the “non obvious”

    And why are you dating everyone to the Beis Hamikdash which came like 3000 years after creation? Werent people and Yidden alive before that? After all I am asking about originally not from times of Beis Hamikdash.
    Unless that proves there were ashkenazim even before the golus of the churban.

    #1421732

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Also I wondered what you wrote that was so bad it had to be edited. Because for the most part your points were pretty weak.

    #1421805

    mdd1
    Participant

    Litvishechossid, my arguments are not weak- it’s just you have to be willing to listen. Change the attitude. But now, let me elaborate: 1)Believing the Orthodox way and doing anything you want is not much better than Reform. It’s just that the Ashkenazim are more din-type of people- they don’t like to think they are doing something wrong. That’s why they may be tempted to even say kefirah to justify themselves. The Sefardim have no such problems – for them “we have yetzer ha’ra” is enough of a reason. 2)About the sheitls. If a woman follows her Rov who holds they are ok, she fulfills her obligation. I know there is a problem nowadays that most of them look too good, but those Poskim hold it doesn’t negate her fulfilling of the obligation. I find it galling that Sefardim should be talking about tznius. The officially Orthodox but not erlache Sefardim violate the laws of modesty in a much more flagrant way than the Ashkenazim of the same type.

    #1421819

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    litvishechosid: To me you are ignoring a passuk in Shir Hashirim: אַל־תִּרְאֻ֨נִי֙ שֶֽׁאֲנִ֣י שְׁחַרְחֹ֔רֶת שֶׁשְּׁזָפַ֖תְנִי הַשָּׁ֑מֶשׁ

    #1421919

    Redleg
    Participant

    MDD1, Sorry, I can only post periodically. With regard to my post, a previous poster opined to the effectthat the fair skinned Ashekenazim came about due to environmental conditions in northern Europe. to which my post was directed. Since the Dor haMabul was several thousand years prior to the migration of Semitic (remember Shem?) Jews to Europe, my post is still relevant. Note that that Yefes, the progenitor of European races, may very well have been blonde, blue eyed and fair skinned, while Shem, our progenitor, possessed dark hair and eyes along with an olive complexion. Anyone who took tenth grade Biology can, then, figure out what happened.

    #1421935

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Mdd- I’m not sure where you get your info from, but most reform are actually ashkenaz. Just look at Hollywood or anyone famous who is Jewish they usually are ashkenaz and they aren’t religious. I am open minded but arguing that most sephardim are reform and ashkenaz have sin holds no ground. Ir simply sounds foolish especially since the reform movement started by ashkenaz and most non frum Jews in America are ashkenaz. And being non frum does not mean being reform. Reform actually believe it’s ok to drive to shul on shabbos. People who aren’t feum might so such a thing but they still don’t believe that it’s the derech it’s just they aren’t at that level yet. There’s a difference between doing something or believing that its the right way.

    Also o don’t know why you keep saying sephardim violate tznius more than ashkenaz. I mean nowadays women dress slas they feel on both sides. And just because a woman wears a long layered beautiful sheitel and pushes a stroller doesn’t make it ok for her to wear a mini skirt. That’s just what I think. I may be wrong though.

    #1421937

    slominer
    Participant

    How is it better if they drive to work on Shabbos, eat in McDonald’s and dress immodestly but don’t call themselves Reform than if they do call themselves Reform?

    #1421939

    GAON
    Participant

    “Besides with nowadays sheitels Im not too sure that they are better than walking around with uncovered hair.”

    Sorry, this is total Am Ha’aratzos. Yes, it is an issue but by far the same. Uncovered is a D’Oraisa and this is just a breach in Tzenius or at most a Daas Yehudis.
    Emotions are not always in sync with Halacha.

    #1421949

    GAON
    Participant

    Mdd,

    “1)Believing the Orthodox way and doing anything you want is not much better than Reform. ”

    It is by far better, the latter is rendered as Kefiira/ an Apikoras and the other is just a Baal Aveiro/Chota.

    #1421958

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    That ashkenaz have*DIN* typo

    #1421959

    slominer
    Participant

    “Note that that Yefes, the progenitor of European races, may very well have been blonde, blue eyed and fair skinned, while Shem, our progenitor, possessed dark hair and eyes along with an olive complexion.”

    Redleg: Your base assumptions about the complexities of Shem and Yefes are incorrect, have no basis in reality and are unsupported. Since your initial assumptions are wrong, the rest of your conclusion is similarly incorrect.

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