ashkenaz

The study if Mummies has shows that Arab-like physical features were not always standard across those regions. There’s good reason to believe that the current trend is the result of the Arabs spreading out to all of those countries with the invention of Islam. There are Sphardim who were in the middle east for centuries, and still have pale skin and non-dark hair.

There are many Palestinians, other Arabs, Iranians, Afghans, etc. with blue eyes. Some of them have pretty light skin too.

Ashkenazi Jews are probably descended from Middle Eastern and/or Babylonian Jews, but they were in Europe for over a thousand years, more like 1500 years. That is enough time for the average skin color to change (and eyes and hair too, since skin, eye hair genes are related), for health reasons. Even so, most Ashkenazim have dark hair and many have olive or dark skin (though many are very pale). Blue eyes are common but not the vast majority.

When a single couple has several children, because of natural genetic variation some will be lighter and some will be darker. In far Northern climates, darker skinned people will not get as much Vitamin D, and will sometimes have health problems or be generally sickly as a result, while the light-skinned will be healthier, and thus more likely on average to have children and successfully raise them and keep them alive. A few dozen generations is potentially enough time for the shift toward lighter skin to take place.

Genetic studies also suggest that Ashkenazim were descended in part from converts from Southern Europe, especially Italy, and to a much smaller degree from Western and Eastern Europe. This is not surprising, since Jews have attracted converts wherever they have lived. It may have happened at a somewhat larger scale in Ancient Rome.

Joseph, I read that actually the Ashkenazim came from Bovel and Sefardim – from Eretz Yisroel.

Litvish,

“We basically invented sheitels as well which even back in Europe many gedoilim we’re opposed to. Sephardim always wore a head covering and mostly till this day unless they copy ashkenaz traditions.”

This not the case, as Peah Nuchris has been worn in thetimes of the early Achronim – in the times of the Shiltie Giborim who was a Sephardi . See more on the below posts:

Natural-Hair Sheitels Are Assur

Litvisherchossid, most Ashkenazim don’t have light hair. Darker skin color is more prevalent in people from southern, sunny countries. As simple as that.

Sefardim by and large did not intermarry and didn’t take in a lot of Geirim. So why do they look like those around them?
Sefardim look like the people in the countries they lived in because, just like Yaakov trimmed branches to look spotted, striped etc, people after generations look like the surrounding indigenous people. I heard this from my Rebbele.
What color was the tone of the skin of the Avos? Moshe Rabbeinu? Look in Rashi on the Chumash (Bereishis 12:12). Elimelech and his people were white (see Sifsei Chachomim Ibid)

“but they always boast how they were always at least traditional and kept to marrying only Yidden. ”

That is true, you will rarely find a Atheist Sephardi. I assume, Ashknazim started going down the hill with the Haskalah, which originated along the secular non-jew as well, and advanced as the goyish society become more open and advanced as well. There is a reason why it succeeded in Germany.
Whereas, in Sephardi regions, the non-jew was much more reilgious as well.
You should read the Meshech Chachma in Parshas Bechukosei how he explains the issue of anti-Semitism.

Baltimore,
True, in fact the Talmud in Sotah (I think Rashi quotes it Parshas Naso) states regarding a Sotah who was innocent, that part of the reward is that her children will be “white”

Litvish, the premise you’re basing all of this on is that the Jews should naturally have dark skin. Like I said before, this is baseless. The reason the middle east has dark skin now is because one region mixed with all the others after Islam and dark skin tends to be a more dominant gene.

Multiple posters have pointed out to you that certain groups of Sphardim are not particularly distinguishable from Ashkenazim. You seem to be zeroing in on a Teimani/Mizrachi stereotype to define all Sphardim. Sphardim from Morocco, Egypt, Rhodes, and Turkey are not brown skinned (obviously some might be).

Ashkenazi kohanim and Sephardi kohanim have the same male DNA.

Gaon: The 50% conversion rate to Christianity is a historical figure known to Klal Yisroel for centuries. It isn’t under dispute or controversial. (Incidentally, I think secular accounts also use this approximate figure.)

Regarding Reform, intermarriage and commitment to Yiddishkeit, the weak among the Sephardim already converted to Christianity, so the Sephardim that are left are the strong ones in terms of Yiddishkeit since their weak already left. The Ashkenazic weak left Yiddishkeit hundreds of years after the Sephardim, when the Reform/haskala came to town.

There are many millions of more Ashkenazim today than Sephardim.

None of this, unfortunately, is shocking. 80% of Klal Yisroel was wiped out in Eretz Mitzrayim during the makkos, for being too weak in Yiddishkeit. And when Moshiach comes they’ll be another cleansing with 80% again being wiped out. The seforim say this.

Regarding the looks, who is to say whether the “Ashkenazic look” today closer resembles the look of Yidden during the time of the Beis HaMikdash, or if today’s Sephardim are a closer semblance. No one knows. Assuming even there’s much of a difference in looks. Frankly, most people couldn’t tell whether a Yid is of German Ashkenazic extraction or of Syrian Sephardic extraction, if both are wearing the same black Borsalino and suit.

Joseph, there is a mishna in Negoim which says that a Yid’s skin is lighter than an African’s skin, but darker than that of a German.
Litvishechossid, #1 spelling everything out won’t help anything, so, I am keeping quiet; #2 the Iranian Jews also look like Ashkenazim.

The mishna in Nega’im (2:1) which mdd quoted is: רבי ישמעאל אומר, בני ישראל, אני כפרתן, הרי הן כאשכרוע, לא שחורים ולא לבנים, אלא בינוניים.
I don’t know what color אשכרוע wood is, but it would seem that most Ashkenazim are lighter than that and many Yemenites, for example, are darker. We see also that the mishna in Nedarim (3:8) says: הנודר משחורי הראש אסור בקירחים ובבעלי שיבות ומותר בנשים ובקטנים שאין נקראין שחורי הראש אלא אנשים.
The Rav explains:
שאין נקראים שחורי הראש אלא אנשים – לפי שהאנשים פעמים מכסים ראשם ופעמים מגלים ומשחרות ראשם ניכר שהם אנשים, אבל נשים לעולם הולכות וראשם מכוסה. והקטנים בין זכרים בין נקבות הולכין בגילוי הראש ואינם ניכרים בין זכר לנקבה, ומשום הכי לא אקרו שחורי הראש אלא האנשים הגדולים:
Clearly the vast majority of Jews in the time of Chazal had black hair. Probably influxes of geirim and changes of climates have changed the appearance of many modern Jews. DNA tests of many different Jewish populations have suggested that we all share Middle Eastern ancestry.

Of course Ashkenazim tend to be lighter skinned that Jews in the Middle East. Most converts in Europe were quite pale, whereas most converts in the Middle East looked like the Jews in ancient times (who were from the same reason). An added factor might be that Jews with lighter skin and blond hair had a better chance surviving pogroms that darker European Jews.

The reason there are more Ashkenazim is that during the last few centuries the areas where Ashkenazim lived had a good economy and improvements in medicine, triggering a population explosion. Four hundred years ago the numbers were roughly equal. A thousand years ago, Ashkenazim were a small minority.

But in all fairness, people in the Middle East don’t look all that different than ones from Europe, and in general humans are pretty much similar. There is about as much genetic diversity among humans as among poodles (some dark, some light, some big, some small, but all poodles). This tends to support our view that humanity has only been around a short time.

1500 years is far to short a time period for natural selection to produce significant numbers of blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned Jews. That so many Ashkenazik Jews match such a description is most likely the same reason that there were no red-haired Irishmen until the Viking invasion, i.e. interbreeding with Northern Europeans through conversion, annus, and shmad.

litvisherchosid: You are still confusing Sephardim (i.e. those who come from the expulsion from Sephard) with Mizrachis (i.e. those who were in the Arab and African lands even before the Spanish expulsion.)

“the bottom line is that originally the skin tone of Yidden was darker and not pale white as someone here quoted the Talmud.”

You keep repeating this but it isn’t correct. The Yidden’s skin color was not darker originally.

“sephardi is the original nusach of yisrael”

Not accurate.

“the origins of yidden are of sephardi/mizrachi countries.”

Not true either. Our origins are not from Spain, Portugal, Morocco, Persia, Yemen or Libya.

“So I guess the real question is how did ashkenaz nusach come about and was the sephardi mizrachi nusach really the original and does it trace back to those times?”

The Sephardi Nusach or havara is no more correct than the Ashkenazi Nusach or havara.

Litvishechossid, my arguments are not weak- it’s just you have to be willing to listen. Change the attitude. But now, let me elaborate: 1)Believing the Orthodox way and doing anything you want is not much better than Reform. It’s just that the Ashkenazim are more din-type of people- they don’t like to think they are doing something wrong. That’s why they may be tempted to even say kefirah to justify themselves. The Sefardim have no such problems – for them “we have yetzer ha’ra” is enough of a reason. 2)About the sheitls. If a woman follows her Rov who holds they are ok, she fulfills her obligation. I know there is a problem nowadays that most of them look too good, but those Poskim hold it doesn’t negate her fulfilling of the obligation. I find it galling that Sefardim should be talking about tznius. The officially Orthodox but not erlache Sefardim violate the laws of modesty in a much more flagrant way than the Ashkenazim of the same type.

MDD1, Sorry, I can only post periodically. With regard to my post, a previous poster opined to the effectthat the fair skinned Ashekenazim came about due to environmental conditions in northern Europe. to which my post was directed. Since the Dor haMabul was several thousand years prior to the migration of Semitic (remember Shem?) Jews to Europe, my post is still relevant. Note that that Yefes, the progenitor of European races, may very well have been blonde, blue eyed and fair skinned, while Shem, our progenitor, possessed dark hair and eyes along with an olive complexion. Anyone who took tenth grade Biology can, then, figure out what happened.

How is it better if they drive to work on Shabbos, eat in McDonald’s and dress immodestly but don’t call themselves Reform than if they do call themselves Reform?

Mdd,

“1)Believing the Orthodox way and doing anything you want is not much better than Reform. ”

It is by far better, the latter is rendered as Kefiira/ an Apikoras and the other is just a Baal Aveiro/Chota.

“Note that that Yefes, the progenitor of European races, may very well have been blonde, blue eyed and fair skinned, while Shem, our progenitor, possessed dark hair and eyes along with an olive complexion.”

Redleg: Your base assumptions about the complexities of Shem and Yefes are incorrect, have no basis in reality and are unsupported. Since your initial assumptions are wrong, the rest of your conclusion is similarly incorrect.