Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

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  • #1025780

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Helpful: Why don’t you give a shiur?

    I will try to attend (if it is in my area).

    #1025781

    rescue37
    Participant

    WIF,

    I need yesterdays news today not 2 days ago news today, that’s why I don’t bother with jewish papers. Also, there are types of news that are not covered in the jewish papers that a person may need to know.

    #1025782

    Helpful
    Member

    Rescue, what do you ”need” to know that matirs seeing pritzus in the Post or News??

    #1025783

    oomis
    Participant

    If a person wants to be informed about what is going on in the world around him, it is necessary to get that information from non-Jewish news sources, most of the time. The Jewish Press (and the like) deals with Jewish-related themes. Not everyone reads Yiddish, even if the Yiddish papers were to carry all news stories.

    #1025784

    Helpful
    Member

    Far far better to be uninformed of the ”news”, than to chas v’shalom encounter even ONE instance of the terrible pritzus rampant in the newspapers.

    #1025785

    rescue37
    Participant

    Helpful,

    I need to knoe the daily happenings of Dilbert and Garfield.

    #1025786

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Helpful:

    When are you going to give that shiur?

    Or do you just like telling anonymous people that what they do is assur, which will create no changes (I estimate you as an 18 year old girl straight out of sem, perhaps Missme? Just judging by how you write and what you are saying).

    If you really are older and you really want to do something about this real problem, go ahead. Shmoozing about it here is just not going to cut it.

    Good luck.

    #1025787

    WIY
    Member

    The Hamodia has a daily newspaper with all relevant news. Theres no news you “need to know” that you cant get from a Jewish newspaper or from Jewish news websites unless you “need to know” which Hollywood prutza just went into or went out of rehab and worse….

    If for whatever reason (and I cant think of one) you really need to read a non Jewish paper you can read the wall street journal which has limited shmutz.

    Reading the post and the daily news is like reading a tabloid and the NY times isnt much better.

    #1025788

    Helpful
    Member

    WIY: Even the WSJ got much worse of late.

    G_A_W: All your assumptions are mistaken.

    #1025789

    philosopher
    Member

    Helpful, I have actualy written a helpful few ideas throughout this thread.

    But as I don’t have patience go through the thread again and copy the posts, let me just pare it down into one word EDUCATION.

    Eduacte the women how important it is and how HONORED we are to have this mitzva of tznius. From a different thread where someone posted meforshim I see meforshim refer to kol kefuda bas melech penuma as meaning the TZNIUS of a women is her HONOR. A woman should not be ostentatious rather refined and aidel in every manner, not just dress.

    We should teach that women who are pritzus are acting in a cheap manner and degrading themselves.

    Education for girls need to start when they are very young, pre-school age. It should be second nature to these girls when they grow up. Teaching tznius IS an ESSENTIAL part of chinuch.

    #1025790

    philosopher
    Member

    WIY, I agree with you that secular newspapers or magazines are sources of tumah. THEY ARE TUMAH. Who would want to bring tumah into their house?

    While I’m not going to say as a fact that the internet is kosher as it was assured by Rabbonim, but there are choices out there. For example I’m not even totaly connected to the internet but I am on a network that allows me EXTREMELY limited internet access. People can have filters in addition to making the right choices of what sites to visit.

    However, goyishe literature is saturated with shmutz and there’s no dodging it. It’s right in front of you. If someone wants to be updated on the news, besides for reading the Hamodia daily, they can listen to the news on radio.

    #1025791

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Helpful:

    But since that is what you sound like, do you think anyone will pay attention?

    R’ Shafran recently wrote about blogging vs. doing. If you want to do, then do. If you want to coffee room, go ahead. But don’t think that is doing.

    I think (and hope) that you should do. Go be the next Zahava Braunstien, or Sara Shneirer, or Gila Manolson.

    #1025792

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    philosopher:

    What strata are you trying to connect to?

    It seems to me (from where I notice) that the problem is not with teens, or older women, but with married women in their 20’s and 30’s. Any ideas why?

    #1025793

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    THEY ARE TUMAH

    Pet Peeve Moment:

    Nothing is Tumah. Something can be TAMEI and be a source of TUMAH, but an object cannot be TUMAH in and of itself.

    Carry on.

    The Wolf

    #1025794

    gavra –

    the problem is with both. teens and young woman. sometimes from the way they dress you’d think they don’t want to be married – they try so hard to dress like young teens.

    #1025795

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    sof davar:

    I don’t see it with the teens as much, but then again, I did not specificly look (as that would be Assur). I am not a card carrying member of the Tznius Patrol, which allows one to be Mistakel (since it is L’Toeles, of course).

    #1025796

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    GAW – I think I can explain the young married women thing.

    They are finally free. They make their own decisions. No more mother or teacher breathing down their neck. So when they go shopping and the skirt is borderline – its ok, because they’ll be careful. Or, they’ll wear tights so you can’t really tell. Etc, etc, etc. And everyone else is doing it, so its not really wrong…

    I’m not judging them, my level of tznius could use a boost. I understand the draw though.

    #1025797

    WIY
    Member

    SJSinNYC:

    If thats how women think about Tznius its a sad situation indeed. Thats seriously cutting corners. I think some women dont understand that slightly untznius is TOTALLY untznius! There really is no middle ground, its either Tznius or its not.

    #1025798

    oomis
    Participant

    “Far far better to be uninformed of the ”news”, than to chas v’shalom encounter even ONE instance of the terrible pritzus rampant in the newspapers. “

    Helpful, no one forces you to read about pritzus. Presumably, you are a frum person who is intelligent enough to recognize a headline that seems inappropriate. So go on to the next page. I don’t read everything in every paper. I am not interested in the Hollywood actresses who might as well be zonas. But I AM interested in knowing which of my politicians are untrustworthy because they cannot even be faithful to their spouses, and which push agendas of toeiva, and which are dedicated to supporting E”Y, and so forth. Most of that does not appear in Jewish papers, for obvious reasons.

    When a rabbi is accused of molesting a child, until recent years you would not see such stuff printed in a Jewish paper, either. And unfortunately, R”L this is something we need to know about. We need to know what goyim are saying about us, and hiding our heads in the sand (or Jewish-only papers), prevents us from knowing what they are really thinking. Not everyone is able to catch a hypocrite in the White House Press Corps, while shooting a Jewish video.

    #1025799

    Helpful
    Member

    Oomis, it is assur to even bring the shmutzidik pictures in those papers into a jewish home. Aside from the impossibility of ”not noticing” them as you flip thru the shmutzidik papers.

    #1025800

    philosopher
    Member

    What strata are you trying to connect to?

    It seems to me (from where I notice) that the problem is not with teens, or older women, but with married women in their 20’s and 30’s. Any ideas why?

    gavra, I’ve seen enough older girls that go with tight clothing and skirts that cover the knee to the millimeter and the minute they sit, climb stairs or get into cars not only their knee gets uncovered, but part of their thigh as well, which is totaly ossur.

    But come to think of it, I have seen many more young married women dress indecent and it could very well be that as SJS said once they get married and are free to do as pleased.

    Therefore chinuch that instills in young children and young girls the WILL to be a tznua is vital, it becomes part of them.

    #1025801

    philosopher
    Member

    Nothing is Tumah. Something can be TAMEI and be a source of TUMAH, but an object cannot be TUMAH in and of itself.

    Okay, Wolf, if you say so then it must be it. I have never learnt these halachas.

    #1025802

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    WIY, you are sort of right and sort of wrong. While yes, if its not tzanua, then it isn’t, but according to many poskim, if the bottom part of your knee shows, its not really erva. So if someone wears a skirt that fully covers in 95% of situations, and brushes up a little for the other 5%, its not untzanua, but its not really tzanua. Do you understand the distinction?

    #1025803

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Okay, Wolf, if you say so then it must be it. I have never learnt these halachas.

    It’s not a matter of halacha, it’s a matter of dikduk.

    Tumah is a noun. Tamei is an adjective.

    The Wolf

    #1025804

    This problem stems from somewhere. Here is how it can easily escalate.

    Scenario:

    A young, frum couple (let’s say relatively with-it) live in a neighborhood with several others in their age group and their ‘type’. The wife dresses well. She is stylish, her skirts are just below the knee, fitted and her jewelry and shaitel are always well-chosen. Some might call her trendy.

    She’s friendly with another woman, about her age and type. Her friend is also a stylish dresser. Her shoes always match and she wears cute tops. This friend isn’t as slim or pretty, though.

    When they chat, sometimes their husbands are with them. The two men talk mostly to each other but might exchange a word or two (to be polite) with the women.

    Woman B (the second one) is concerned. What is she worried about? That maybe her husband doesn’t find HER as attractive as she believes her friend is. If these friends hang around each other more, and they invite eachother over for shalosh seudos or a barbecue, Woman B becomes increasingly worried that compared to her friend, she’s less attractive in her husband’s eyes. This might be a total illusion. But this will easily compel her to dress at least as ‘sharp’ as her friend in an effort to maintain her position as an ‘attractive’ woman.

    Think about it – it’s all very subconscious, but Woman B can’t afford to ‘tone things down’ with the makeup, the slimming tighter skirt and Lycra top. Her very marriage is at stake. This is what she believes.

    What about the men? Honestly, I don’t know how the men can allow their wives to carry on like this, but peer pressure is powerful.

    Don’t think that because I’m not wearing short skirts and tighter tops (yes, they are more slimming) that it’s not hard for me. I would like to. But, b’H my husband actually tells me if something is too short or tight. He’s really normal, but he knows how he wants his wife out in the streets. No one needs to know your measurements, ladies.

    #1025806

    sjs –

    ahum ahum check your sources again. ALL poskim agree the knee is part of the shok and MUST be covered at ALL times, even less then a tefach is erva and must be covered for a husband to say a bracha. The questionable part is in the rishonim if the ENTIRE leg is considered shok and therefore must be covered. Yes everyone! some hold (most don’t paskin as such) that the entire leg is shok and thereby must be covered. So yes it is very frightening that now it’s very in to wear very short skirts.

    #1025807

    Josh31
    Participant

    The Bnos Melochim concept also puts an obligation on men to be good and diligent providers.

    #1025808

    Helpful
    Member

    payingattention: well put.

    And not only can it escalate, as you well demonstrated, but the situation wasn’t ideal to begin with.

    #1025809

    msseeker
    Member

    payingatt: Why are couples socializing to begin with?

    ?? ???? ???? ?? ?????, ????? ???? ?”? ???? ????… ????? ???? ?????

    ??? ????? ????? ??

    ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????

    ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????

    Does any of these ring a bell? Hellooooo!!!

    #1025810

    philosopher
    Member

    Tumah is a noun. Tamei is an adjective.

    Wolf, so why can’t I call newspaper tumah as in a noun form?

    I call the newspaper itself tumah.

    How would you call an idol, for example. Can I say an idol is tumah or do I say it is tamei?

    If I need to say an idol is tamei and not tumah, then I think we can say inanimate objects are not tumah, but rather they are tamei, they transmit tumah.

    Nothing is Tumah. Something can be TAMEI and be a source of TUMAH, but an object cannot be TUMAH in and of itself.

    As far as I know a mes is tumah and a Jew can be tumah as well (and if my recollection serves me well, so can a shoretz).

    Oh and thanks for giving me permision to carry on. I will do your bidding with zeal. SECULAR NEWSPAPERS THAT CONTAIN IMMORAL IMAGES AND ARTICLES ARE METAMTEM THE LEV.

    #1025811

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, so why can’t I call newspaper tumah as in a noun form?

    I call the newspaper itself tumah.

    How would you call an idol, for example. Can I say an idol is tumah or do I say it is tamei?

    Now you’re conflating two different concepts.

    In the legal, halachic sense, a newspaper or an idol may not be tamei at all. It depends if it contracted tumah from an external source. There is nothing about an idol or a newspaper that, intrinsically, makes it tamei in the strict halachic sense.

    However, you’re using “tumah” in more of a hashkafic sense, to mean improper and something you wouldn’t want to be around. In that respect, I suppose anything can be tamei.

    Nonetheless, to get back to your point… items aren’t tumah. Tumah isn’t something you can touch or feel. It’s a spiritual, halachic and legal construct that is the “contamination” (yes, it’s a terrible translation, but I don’t have a better word off the top of my head) that “contaminates” various items, foods and peoples.

    As such, an idol is not tumah. Nothing can be “tumah.” It’s may be tamei and a source of tumah.

    If I need to say an idol is tamei and not tumah, then I think we can say inanimate objects are not tumah, but rather they are tamei, they transmit tumah.

    That’s almost 100% correct. The only minor point is that some items may, in fact, be tamei but not able to trasmit tumah. But aside from that minor point, you’re 100% correct there.

    As far as I know a mes is tumah and a Jew can be tumah as well (and if my recollection serves me well, so can a shoretz).

    NO NO NO NO NO.

    A dead body is TAMEI. It is a source of TUMAH.

    A person can become TAMEI. He can also be a source of further TUMAH, but he is not TUMAH.

    A dead sheretz can be TAMEI (depending on the species). It can be a source of TUMAH, but it is not TUMAH.

    Again, “TUMAH” is strictly a spiritual construct. It cannot be touched.

    Oh and thanks for giving me permision to carry on.

    You don’t need my permission. It’s just an expression.

    The Wolf

    #1025812

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Sof, not according to what I’ve learnt. I don’t remember where, its been a long time. But shok is NOT clear cut in halacha.

    #1025813

    philosopher
    Member

    Wolf, thanks so much for your clarification. I really appreciate it.

    However, you’re using “tumah” in more of a hashkafic sense, to mean improper and something you wouldn’t want to be around. In that respect, I suppose anything can be tamei.

    Do you think the Hamodia can also be called tamei?

    You don’t need my permission. It’s just an expression.

    I know, I know. I was just kidding there. (Though I was not joking with my last comment in that post).

    #1025814

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Do you think the Hamodia can also be called tamei?

    No. Aside from the fact that I don’t read the HaModia and really know very little about it, I don’t (as a matter of policy) go around calling things tamei because they espouse a different hashkafah than I do.

    The Wolf

    #1025815

    philosopher
    Member

    SJS, as the thigh is definitely ervah, and since most humans, women included have their thighs connected to their knees, and since the knee itself is not one foot long (12″), but a mere 2″ or so, there is no way the knee can get uncovered and you can’t see part of the thigh. You might wish it’s not so, you might wish it’s invisivable for all men, but it’s not.

    A skirt that doesn’t completely cover the knee while sitting or getting into a car automatically reveals part of the lower thigh as well.

    That’s why we don’t do everything according to the letter of the law. We do MORE than the letter of the law. We make gedarim so that we cannot cross the boundries and come to violate the law itself.

    #1025817

    philosopher
    Member

    I don’t know about going around calling things tumah. When one walks on the street they need to see where they’re going and depending where they live/work they might see more or less indecency, but surely I would assume that the hashkafa of every frum Yid is that we cannot willfully bring into our house or into our minds immoral images and articles. Our houses are the miniature mishkans and our hearts as well. Why would we willfully want to be metamah (I hope I used the correct term here)our hearts and homes?

    Or do you have a different opinion of what the hashkafa of a frum Yid ahould be?

    #1025818

    oomis
    Participant

    “A person can become TAMEI. He can also be a source of further TUMAH, but he is not TUMAH.”

    There is an interesting issue at play here, namely that of semantics and misuse of language. We see that often in the CR, and elsewhere everytime some refers to an object as a tznius this or that. The word tznius means one thing – modesty. You cannot have a modesty person (i.e. she is not tznius), but you can have an item that is tzanua (she is a tznuah or tzniusDIG person). This happens to be a pet peeve of mine, and I know it is a naarishkeit that this bothers me as much as it does, butthe truth is I see the same thing in the tumah reference. People are not tumah. TUMAH is Tumah. People can be a source for it (if dead), but they are not intrinsically “tumah.” AS the Torah teaches us over and over again, each word has a meaning, and the use of words should always be very clear, precise, and correct. Changing a word or using it grammatically incorrectly can change the meaning of a posuk completely. It also tends to be the product of exaggeration when we see it here, such as in the reference to tumah.

    #1025819

    msseeker
    Member

    What bitter irony – an ad for a wig fit for a zonah right next to “Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel”.

    #1025820

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Or do you have a different opinion of what the hashkafa of a frum Yid ahould be?

    Again, keep in mind that I don’t read HaModia and therefore don’t have anything on which to form an opinion other than hearsay. That being said, I don’t know if the HaModia has articles that are “indecent” and “immoral.”

    That being said, I know that I have my hashkafos. OTOH, there are others who legitimately have different hashkafos than I do. My hashakafah and the hashkafah of the editors of the Yated, for example, differ greatly. Nonetheless, while I may have my differences with them and even disagree vocally (or as vocal as you can get on a blog) with them, I would never say that the Yated is Tamei or doesn’t belong in a Jewish home. The same goes for any other number of Jewish publications.

    The Wolf

    EDITED

    #1025822

    blinky
    Participant

    msseeker-I looks pretty tzniyus to me-what do you find about it that makes it “fit for a zonah”?

    #1025824

    Please stop looking, in order to better the world you must first better yourself…

    #1025825

    philosopher
    Member

    Whoever wrote against publications including me were reffering to secular publications. I was asking you about Hamodia to prove that there are publications that cannot be considered tumei, even if you don’t agree with their hashkofos. Yated may be another example. There is nothing to consider tumei about them. They are NOT sources of tumah and therefore your question of However, you’re using “tumah” in more of a hashkafic sense, to mean improper and something you wouldn’t want to be around. In that respect, I suppose anything can be tamei. doesn’t apply. Because there are PLENTY of things in life that cannot be considered tumei even if you don’t agree exactly with their hashkofos. Immoral images and articles are sources of tumah. I don’t have to elaborate, you know what I mean. I would hardly call the Yated “immoral”.

    No one was talking against Yated, Hamodia or any such publication.

    The bottome line is do you agree that the BASIC hashkafos of a frum Jew means that they would not willingly bring into their homes immoral images or articles or read publications where immoral images cannot be skirted ?

    #1025826

    fabie
    Member

    msseeker –

    Money talks!

    #1025827

    msseeker
    Member

    Och un vay that it’s even a question, blinky. It’s way too long and flouncy and very far from what anyone might call eidel. No posek who was matir shaitels had this blowing-in-the-wind attention-getter in mind. I’ll bet they’re all turning in their graves the way yiddishe techter are dressing based on their rulings.

    #1025829

    We should all maybe stop focusing on women’s dresses and leave that to our community leaders. Instead, we should all focus on keeping ourselves tzniyus, especially in speech,(ie in the YWN coffee room) so that we may become closer to the One Above…

    #1025830

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Philosopher, there are varying opinions as to where shok ends. Some say above the knee. Some say mid knee. Some say below the knee. Some say below the shin.

    Point being, if a woman’s skirt rides up to show a little bit of knee, she still may be tzanua. Sort of like with head coverings.

    #1025831

    just don’t forget – for all those “heimish newspaper” readers (hamodia, yated, mishpacha… bina) they are written by frum yidden, HOWEVER EVERYTHING MUST be taken with a grain of salt. They change a lot of things to make them more interesting. I know of a first hand story that happened to someone who were very close with. One of these magazine/newspapers interviewed and wrote an article about it, and for some reason some VERY SIMPLE and straight forward facts got turned into a whole drama. Hashkafa wise too – Just remember these are not gedolim and talmiday chachamim writing and editing everything.

    #1025832

    Helpful
    Member

    SDHN: Very true.

    SJS: Even IF that all were true, there is no way to show the part you claim is muttar without also sometimes showing parts that even you agree is assur.

    #1025834

    blinky
    Participant

    mssekeer-come on. Its true i do see many wigs that are not tzniyus, but i really don’t see anything wrong with this one. It looks a little longer than shoulder length and its not “blowing in the wind” as you say. The bottoms are a little puffy-because its not straight, but i wouldn’t call it “flouncy”. Pick and choose your arguments-this is not the bad ones. Halevai e/o should wear this than the ones that are really long and flouncy!

    #1025835

    oomis
    Participant

    “It’s way too long and flouncy and very far from what anyone might call eidel.”

    “Anyone” is a very broad term. If you don’t like that wig, by all means do not wear it, and then you will surely be eidel.

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