May 17, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1025032gavra_at_workParticipant
When we label someone “frum”, ….
Don’t go there here, but start it in a new thread. You will be surprised….May 17, 2010 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1025033
If the girls after over 12 years of “indoctrination” still do not follow what was taught to them, maybe there is something wrong with what is being taught. If one or two kids fail a test it is a refelction on the kids, if 50% of a class fail it is a reflection on the teacher.May 17, 2010 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1025034
50% aren’t failing. It is a much smaller percentage. Yet even this is too much.May 17, 2010 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1025035chesednameParticipant
it’s a reflection of their mother.
the teacher can say whatever they want, if the mom buys them the clothes, that’s what they’ll wear.
the biggest problem with tzinus is just that, it’s one thing to speak loshon hara, but tell the kids to stop, A the kids are taught right from wrong, B the parent doesn’t become immune to it.
when it comes to tzinus, and the mother buys the kids what they want, it teaches them the wrong lesson (tzinus is a minhag) and worse off the mom becomes immune to that mitzvah/chiuv.
just look at what woman are writing, it’s a minhag,
i saw a picture from 1000 years ago and the knee was showing,
we all have our faults, (imagine if i was mehalel shabbos and when my wife screamed at me i said we all have our faults,
maybe just maybe if we respected our rabbanim more, they wouldn’t allow these woman into shul, they would be more careful, but if a rav tried that we would hang him.May 17, 2010 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1025036
It is absolutely not only a reflection of the mother. You can see plenty of cases that go either way with the daughters not following what the mother is doing in this regard. Look at pictures from the 60’s & 70’s and you will see that skirt lenght is approxiamtely the same as now. This means, that not much has changed other than there are more people worried about yennems frumkeit now than there was then. how about worrying about yennems gashmius and your own frumkeit. I know from my mife and daughter that going to a yiddish store to by a longer skirt that will cover the knees is sometimes an act of futility. If the longer skirts would sell, there wouldn’t be problem in finding them. Which would indicate that there is a large percentage that don’t care. Maybe that is what should be addressed, or maybe it is a sign from himmel that the lenght may actually be ok and all the shreing is about chumras.May 17, 2010 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1025037
maybe it is a sign from himmel that the lenght may actually be ok and all the shreing is about chumras.
You are misinterpreting the sign from the himmel.
When there was a kosher meat shortage, did you think it was a sign from the himmel to buy Perdue chicken?
When there is a shidduch crisis is it a sign from the himmel to intermarry?
how about worrying about yennems gashmius and your own frumkeit.
Better would be to not be involved in yennem’s anything.May 17, 2010 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1025038komaMember
<< Your neighbor in McDonalds>> In chutz laretz I was a baal melocho who dressed in shmates, 6 foot plus and bearded. In town was another baal melocho, in a very very different business, but also in shmates, 6 foot plus tall and bearded. People routinely were confused as to who was who, and we often received messages and complaints that belonged to the other. In EY, I still work in this business, I dress in shmates, and am often dusty or worse. Children,who because they are socialized that way, (and their parents are too cheap to ever use Jewish labor) generally see me as an Arab. The point? Human perception is a blunt instrument and highly subjective. How can you be judgmental when your lens is warped from the outset? Always be dan l’kaf zechus. You are mostly Americans, are you not?!May 17, 2010 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1025039
You are misinterpreting the sign from the himmel.
And you’re misinterpreting rescue37’s words.
A chumra, by definition, is not a halacha. You’re equation that reconsidering chumras = reconsidering tarfus or intermarriage is just plain wrong.
The WolfMay 17, 2010 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1025040
I always admire your ability to find the flaw in fallacious arguments. I am not comparing the situations but I find ludicrous the suggestion that a lack of availability is G-d’s way of telling us to drop something.
The lack of kosher meat implies a drop in production, not the end of kashrus laws. The lack of modest clothing implies a drop in demand, not a restatement of tsnius laws.May 17, 2010 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1025041
I am not comparing the situations but I find ludicrous the suggestion that a lack of availability is G-d’s way of telling us to drop something.
Sometimes it is. A lack of an esrog (such as that the price exceeds 20%* of your net worth) is God’s way of telling you not to take an esrog. And that’s for an actual honest-to-goodness d’oraissah!
The standard for a d’rabbanan (and certainly for a chumra) should not nearly be so high.
* I believe the number is 20%, but if not, feel free to substitute whatever the number is.May 17, 2010 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1025043
I beleive we should all be involved in worrying about yenems gashmius. It should be my worry that yenem has enough of it. worrying about to mush of it, would relate to his ruchnius.May 17, 2010 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1025044
Acheinu Bnei Yisroel must worry about each others ruchniyus moreso even than their gashmiyus. Why do we have the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation constantly reminding us the laws against loshon hora? Since they are worried about our ruchniyus. No one complains that the CCHF should stop their anti-loshon hora campaigns and only start worrying about their own ruchniyus. Here too this applies.May 17, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1025045
I mean no disrespect, but I simply could not resist responding to this particular phraseology. So keeping in mind that this is tongue in cheek, if the person is an “iver,” then I doubt he is bothered much by the girl’s short hemline.
OK back to our discussion…May 17, 2010 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1025046
It would seem that we are thinking of the term “worrying about” in different ways. I agree that we should all be concerned for each others’ well-being, and see to it that no one has to go hungry or be cold etc. Similarly, in ruchniyos we should make sure everyone has the opportunity to learn Torah, send their children to yeshivos ktanos, be able to spend shabbos in a shomer shabbos home, etc. I do not agree with anyone who says we should worry about or check up on anyone else’s ruchniyos or gashmiyos for the sake of keeping track of their personal choices and decisions.May 17, 2010 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1025047
oomis, thanks for making me smile 🙂May 17, 2010 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1025048
We must educate and stress to our brethren the laws of loshon hora (ala Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation, shiurim, etc.), tznius, and other areas that require brushing up on.May 17, 2010 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1025049
big difference between CCHF and OP
CCHF – Lashon horah is a problems, let’s teach klal yisroel the halachos and give shiurim on the issue.
OP – “I wish to protest this very recent phenomenon of such public breach in tznius”
CCHF never protests or calls out a segment, they work to improve us. OP has compaints and protests.
A person should not be worried about yenems ruchnius, he can be worried about klal yisroel, but if someone is truly worried about klal yisroel, then the approch would be like CCHF.May 17, 2010 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1025050
rescue37: So I take it you would be willing to work with me to establish a Chofetz Chaim Tznius Foundation to educate and work with the public the same way the CCHF works on the loshon hora issue.May 17, 2010 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1025051
If you see someone transgressing and don’t point it out to them then you too gets an aveira each time the person is doing that aveira.
On 16th Avenue i watched a woman walk, with her skirt above her knee and slipping too. No she was not a size 2,4,6,8,10 nor 12. When i nicely told her that not only were her knees out but slip too, she got insulted.
Anyway, her car(jeep) was parked at a pump and yes she did get a ticket. I hope she took it as a sign from above.
When shopping stores should have a full length mirror on all 4 sides so women can walk and see what they really look like. In addition to the length, the width should be a factor too.
Unfortunately, some women should take the band they have around their heads(covered sheitel) and put it aroung their knees.May 17, 2010 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1025052feivelParticipant
Tochacha is a Halachah ( however requiring such sensitivity that it is appropriate only in quite limited circumstances in our ignorant generation)
And it has always been our way of Gedolim, Rabbeim, other leaders, and concerned erliche Yiddim to protest againt public and widespread errors of Halachah and behavior, out of concern for those who are jeopardizing their Olam Ha Boh, and out of concern for the Honor of Hashem.
This has always been a foundation of Torah.
The other way is the way of the nations, from whom we have been commanded to separate ourselves.May 17, 2010 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1025053
Trying my best: Whose definition of tznius are you going to base it on?
EDITEDMay 17, 2010 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1025054
The Torah Shebecsav and the Torah She’baal Peh.May 17, 2010 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1025055
what about if there is a machlokes on how to interpret? Will it be Cazon Ish’s standards, Chofetz Chaim standards? Reb Yoshe Ber Soleveitchik (Boston) standards? Toldos Aharon standards? Lubavitch standards? If you choose one of the above, what about if my Rav says we should use a different standard?May 17, 2010 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1025056yitayningwutParticipant
From a purely halachic standpoint I am not sure you’re right. The halacha you cited is only by a mitzvas aseh, and not by a lav. By the way the most one is required to spend is probably much less than 20%, see the Rosh and Tosafos to B.K. 9b. At any rate, everyone agrees that for a lav one is required to do whatever it takes as long as he is not putting himself in danger. One could possibly make the case, through an understanding of the difference on the d’oraysa level between a lav and an aseh with regard to this aspect, that an issur d’rabbanan (assuming there is an issur d’rabbanan on a woman not to dress in a provocative fashion) has the same status as a lav regarding this and not the status of an aseh.May 17, 2010 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #1025057
rescue37: I’m perplexed why no one asked all these questions before the CCHF opened shop. “What about if there is a machlokes on how to interpret loshon hora laws? This Rov’s standards, that Rov’s standards, my Rov’s standards, your Rov’s standards?” There is far far more gray areas in loshon hora than tznius, so this should have seemingly been an even greater concern. Yet despite such questions, there was (appropriately) no reluctance or such issues raised establishing the CCHF.May 17, 2010 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1025058
Torah She’baal Peh.
Again, whose standard? Chabad takes the position that a sheitel for a woman is a MUST and is the only proper way for a married woman to cover her hair. A snood/tichel/etc. is not appropriate. There are some groups that hold that a sheitel is absolutely forbidden as it is a violation of tznius. Other groups take a position between the two.
When you say “Torah She’baal Peh,” exactly what does that mean?
The WolfMay 17, 2010 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1025059
See above. There are enough common denominators on tznius that we don’t need to find excuses to avoid the halachic issues altogether based upon the differences.
Let’s start educating the public on the common ground.May 17, 2010 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1025060
“When you say “Torah She’baal Peh,” exactly what does that mean?”
The Torah She’baal Peh is the oral Torah handed down orally by Hashem at Har Sinai to Moshe Rabbeinu and Klal Yisroel and passed through the generations via the mesorah.
The Torah She’baal Peh is as much a part of the Torah, as relevant and as mandatory to follow today, as the Torah Shebecsav that you read from the Bima at least 3 times a week.May 17, 2010 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #1025061
TZNIUS IS OUR PRIDE AND GLORY!
The Torah states:
???????? ?????? ??????
Holy You Should Be!
By wearing immodest clothing we distance the Shechina (Divine Presence) from us.
As the Torah states:
??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????
Immodesty should not be seen amongst you!
Or Hashem will withdraw his presence from you!
When the Shechina departs, we are stripped of our protection ?”?
Maybe this is why so many tzoros, illness, crushing poverty and unbearable tragedies, have befallen us.
In the words of the Holy Chofetz Chaim tzl in a famous letter:
To a large degree this despicable style negates the statement of the Torah:
Tight-fitting, short, flashy clothing, low cut necklines, long extravagant sheitels, etc. are contrary to Tznius standards,
Let us wear clothes that are befitting for Jewish Daughters. This will cause the Shechina to reside in our midst. This will bring many blessings upon ourselves, and ultimately bring the Geulah Sheleima ??”?
????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????! The key to our salvation is in your hands!May 17, 2010 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #1025062
The Torah She’baal Peh is the oral Torah
I know what the Torah SheB’al Peh is. I was asking you to clarify. Specifically comment on the example I gave (wearing a sheitel). There is no clear answer from the TSBP since there are varying customs. The same could be said about many (not all, but many) aspects of tznius.
Whose particular interpretation of TSBP are we going to require that everyone follow?
The WolfMay 18, 2010 12:09 am at 12:09 am #1025063
Your LOR. Public awareness campaigns can focus on the straightforward areas.May 18, 2010 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1025064
Trying my best:
First, who says these types of issues weren’t addressed?
Second, It is called the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation, hence it is apparent that they are purporting the halacha based on the seforim of the chofetz chaim. I would venture to say that there substantilaly less disagreements on what the chofetz chaim meant when he wrote his seforim then on the difference in opinions on tznius. (Wolfish’s example for instance, or the machlokes of shok between the Chazon Ish and the Chofetz Chaim)May 18, 2010 2:21 am at 2:21 am #1025065
The Chofetz Chaim also wrote a Sefer called Mishna Berura. The MB takes some rather clear positions on tznius. Just as you point out the CCHF uses what the CC wrote about LH as its basis, the proposed CCTF would use what the CC wrote about tznius as its basis. And since LH easily has so many gray areas (moreso than even tznius), the CCTF would work on the same basis as the CCHF.May 18, 2010 2:22 am at 2:22 am #1025066
“First, who says these types of issues weren’t addressed?”
It is patently obvious that tznius needs as much contemporary addressing as loshon hora does.May 18, 2010 3:21 am at 3:21 am #1025068
First practice what you preach!May 18, 2010 3:25 am at 3:25 am #1025069
Im -I do! It seems you can only dish it out, but you can’t take it! I didn’t make up this observation of who I always see speaking Loshon Horah!May 18, 2010 3:47 am at 3:47 am #1025070
The magiority of women today, are very careful about Loshon Horah.May 18, 2010 3:59 am at 3:59 am #1025071
“The magiority of women today, are very careful about Loshon Horah. “
THE MAJORITY???? Seriously?????May 18, 2010 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1025072
“oomis, thanks for making me smile 🙂 “
Squeak – my work here is done…. 🙂May 18, 2010 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1025073
You go in to any Bais Hamedrash on Shabbos, you will find that women refrain from speaking when its forbidden to, and those few minutes when it is permissible, the conversation is free of Loshon HorahMay 18, 2010 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1025074
OOmis -It’s funny how people in our generation can’t apply the torah concept of “Don’t look at the outside of the vessel, but what’s in it”. A lot of people only judge up others the way they dress; but if you dress properly and you have a foul mouth, then they think you’re a big tzaddik/tzadaykes!May 18, 2010 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1025075
Im – I’m glad in shul, but what about at home, on the phone, etc.?May 18, 2010 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1025076littleeemaParticipant
adam was machshil his wife by adding to the riboono shel olam’s commands and NOT TELLING HER IT WAS A “SIYAG.” Look at meforshim!May 18, 2010 5:26 am at 5:26 am #1025077bein_hasdorimParticipant
oomis1105 said; “However, the Muslim response to that is to put women in a chador or burquah, and only allow her eyes to show. So maybe the problem is with the man, and not the woman. Maybe men need to learn more self-control. I love the smell of a BLT, but I am not going to eat it.”
What does that have to do with the price of camels in Iran?
We are practicing jews, not arabs!!!
1)The torah wants jewish women to be clean well dressed, look nice & representable, the exact opposite of muslims.
A Bas Melech does not wear rags!!!
The Torah expects women to look nice & dress well according to the halachos of TZNIUS!!
A Bas Melech should dress with honor & class befitting the Royalty of HBH!!!
and as for comment of men learning self control, when a woman dresses immodest causing men temptation, she is Oiver L’ifnei Iver Lo Titen Michshol!!!
That is exactly what we are talking about! We aren’t talking about a woman that dresses tzniusdig and a man stares at her.
(just an example)(i’m not comparing man to a bull)
Go in front of a bull waving a big RED cloth, and tell
the bull “Don’t Charge!” “Control Yourself!…..
That’s Stupid!!! ……Don’t provoke it!!!
How about someone goes in front a woman thats on a diet, dangling a delicious piece of chocolate or some other one
of her favorite foods that she is not allowed to have, & says “don’t think about this delicious chocolate bar.”
“Control yourself!” Is that fair? Imagine its to you oomis1105? Would that be fair?
oomis1105 said; “a woman’s sense of fashion and desire to (be) well-dressed, which has NOTHING whatsoever to do with lack of self-esteem, and everything in the world to do with wanting to look pretty.”
So you’re saying that pretty means wearing shortskirts…. exposing what should be covered?
Oh! i’m sorry! I though pretty was just being good looking.
So your saying someone who isn’t pretty, when they wear revealing clothes they have a transformation?
Being well dresses & being under dressed are two different things.
I’m surprised you can’t tell the difference!
And as for bnos Yisroel who have a need to dress strikingly immodest & “prust” They usually suffer from a lack of self esteem,(maybe denial issues too)
and I quote you oomis1105 “If you ask most women, they are dressing to impress other women, not men”
YOU SAID IT!!! THATS ALSO A LACK OF SELF ESTEEM!!!!!!May 18, 2010 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1025078mischiefmakerMember
I didn’t really read the whole thread but I do want to say that if you are a boy, you can’t understand. I’m totally not justifying not dressing appropriately but I’m saying that you shouldn’t start calling it names. Most girls that wear short skirts are wearing it for peer pressure. Plain and simple! It’s still not right at all but I don’t think it’s cuz of lack of self-esteem cuz don’t tell me that most girls have issues with self-esteem.May 18, 2010 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1025079
Go in front of a bull waving a big RED cloth, and tell
the bull “Don’t Charge!” “Control Yourself!…..
That’s Stupid!!! ……Don’t provoke it!!!
Actually, bulls are colorblind. It doesn’t really matter what COLOR the big cloth is.
The WolfMay 18, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1025080bein_hasdorimParticipant
WolfishMusings; first of all it was an example, & is easily understood using the red color as the expression goes, & many or most don’t know that according to scientists bulls as well as other cattle are red-green color-blind.
the red color was also to allude to the opinion that wearing red draws attention to one’s self, as we are talking about dressing tznius. Thank you for your clarification, my point still clear. Wishing a Gut Yom Tov to all!!!
Let us accept the torah anew this year with all it’s commandments (including V’hiyisem kedoishim) & V’hoyoh Machanecha Kodosh!
B’izchus this Kabbolah we shall surely merit to see the Geulah speedily in our times!May 20, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1025081websterMember
rescue37, I think that the book Mishnah Berurah (written by the Chofetz Chaim) which has been widely accepted throughout Klal Yisroel, should be the Halachic basis for tsnius standards.According to Mishnah Berurah it is absolutely obigatory for a woman to cover her knees completely, (see my above comment).May 21, 2010 4:52 am at 4:52 am #1025082popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I have an observation.
Whenever the topic of tznius comes up, men seem to view it from either a halachic angle, or the “stop tempting me” angle.
Women often seem to be indignant about what other women are wearing. It seems to bother them much more and in a more poignant way than other examples of halachic laxity. I wonder why.May 21, 2010 5:01 am at 5:01 am #1025083anon for thisParticipant
popa_bar_abba, that’s an interesting point. I have noticed this also sometimes. I think it’s because some women think, “If I can dress appropriately, even though I struggle with the same issues/ practical challenges/ etc, why can’t she?”
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