Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

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  • #1025887

    philosopher
    Member

    All we have left to rely on is our Father in Heaven.

    gavra, that is true. But when talking about yirah shomayim, it is completely up to us. As Chazal (I think it think the source for this posuk is Chazal) say everything is in the hands of shomayim with the exception of yiras shomayim.

    #1025888

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Busha means shame and is almost always used negatively.

    but the Yidden as a nation are called beyshunim

    I had temporarily forgotten that reference. I officially retract the point and ask your apologies.

    The Wolf

    #1025889

    blinky
    Participant

    “This nation is characterized by three things: they are compassionate, bashful, and benevolent [rachmanim, baishanim, ve-gomlei chasadim].” (Yevamot 79a)

    #1025890

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    “This nation is characterized by three things: they are compassionate, bashful, and benevolent [rachmanim, baishanim, ve-gomlei chasadim].” (Yevamot 79a)

    As I said above… I officially retract the point and ask apologies for all those whom I offended.

    The Wolf

    #1025891

    philosopher
    Member

    “How does an individual know if he is doing Hashem’s will and following the right derech?”

    The ONLY answer to this question is to have a Rov.

    gavra, True, but a Rov or a Rabbi, whatever you want to call it, can also be Conservative. Or a Neturei Karta. One needs to be clear that the derech mehalach they are following is truly for an oivad Hashem.

    P.S. The Chassidish (really Hungarian/Satmer) Mehalech (in general, Clearheaded!) is more Machmir regarding Tznius. This is NOT halacha Pesuka, but none the less should be applauded (within reason).

    Tell me about it. Although I’m not Satmer, I know a lot about them. I look up to those who wear a shpitzel and the like, but would I grow up in that community, I would have a problem as I don’t think I could wear one. They are very machmir about tznius. Good for them, but of course, we are not talking here about what some feel are extreme chumros, rather chumros that are very reasonable and accepted by all over the world by frum communities, Chassidish, Yehsivish or otherwise.

    The reason why need these chumros are because as the modes of change dress, the application of halacha changes. These are not chumros to make life harder, rather they are minhugim we adopt, as our nation has adopted throughout the centuries, to adapt our current lifestyle so that we can live according to halacha.

    I’m not saying one needs to continuously look to be machmir. But the derech one a Yid needs to be on is a derech a derech of true avodas Hashem. One needs to fit in their current lifestyle into the parameters of halacha, not halacha needs to fit into their current lifestyle.

    #1025892

    blinky
    Participant

    Not a problem, I was actually commenting on philosopher-she said she didn’t know the source.

    #1025893

    philosopher
    Member

    thanks blinky.

    wolf, I was totally not offeneded.

    #1025894

    philosopher
    Member

    gavra, I forgot to mention that Satmar, although they have very strict tznius guidelines, have a pretty diverse oilem.

    There are women who wear only shaitlech and there are women who wear shaitlech with hats and there are women who wear shpitzlach (headscarf). There are fashionably dressed women (I’m not talking about pritzus) and women who think it’s an aviera to dress fashionably. There are people whom you can call baal habatish (men included) in lifestyle and dress, there are simple people and peopel in between. Bekitzur, while it’s true that Satmar has a stricter tznius code, there are all kinds of people in that group. I can say the only thing the majority of Satmare all over the world share equally is their anti-Tzioni shitta.

    Btw, Ittisa, if you don’t want to know what flouncy means I won’t enlighten you. 🙂

    P.S. In my previous post, the second to last paragraph is unclear. I meant to write that the reason why these chumros are crucial to our observance of halacha is because the modes of dress and lifestyle continuously change and therefore the chumros that our Gedolim decree and minhugim that evolve in klal Yisroel, allow us to adhere to the letter of halacha in every generation, since Matan Torah.

    #1025895

    ir
    Member

    #1 – Philosopher, mechila, it is not the chumros that have allowed us to adhere to the letter of the law throughout the generations, it is limud Torah for men, and Tznius for women, as it is chazal meforeshes that Torah tavlin leyetzer horah, and nothing else, and it is the Chasam Sofer who stated clearly that the same is true for women, through their dargos of tznius.

    Tznius is HALACHA, period. Certainly we can understand the mesorah of it, the hashkafa of it, most importantly, the beauty of it. However, it is halacha, and although I read only a few of the posts, I did see confusion. For example, those who spoke about the knee perhaps didn’t realize that this is simply untrue. There is no heter for skirts uncovering the knee, as by everyone’s definition, the knee in its entirety is part of the thigh. This does not differ whether one is Ashkenazi or Sephardi, Litvish or chassidish.

    As for the deterioration of tznius in our generation, it is sad. Unfortunately, it is closely connected to the deterioration of self-esteem in today’s generation. Women today do not necessarily dress for men, rather they dress for women. It is so so sad. If people want to be mechanech their daughters, they need to first and foremost be taught their values as daughters to the king, daughters to the family, and their ability to give to society. Teaching our girls to fulfill their potential, bringing them back into the kitchen so that they can be taught that it is important when they give to their homes, neighbors, community, again, and not pushed in school to produce for a curriculum if it is hard for them to be successful, or forget success – hard for them to be noticed. Let’s face it – the inert messages given in the schools today are not the healthiest. Please do not mistake this to mean that girls should not be educated or pushed to their potential in academics. Anyone who has ever raised a child understands that one can encourage success in one area while being mechanech them on where the priority needs to be.

    If we cherish our daughters, we can learn to communicate that so that they learn to cherish their value.

    Hatzlocha Ubrocha.

    #1025896

    Health
    Participant

    Wolf -“And, interesting enough, there are some portions of our community where ONLY a sheitel is accepted. Lubavitch comes to mind.”

    Also interesting enough, I know women from Malachim (an offshoot of Chabad), that will only wear Tichlach!

    #1025897

    philosopher
    Member

    ir, Torah (learning AND living) and tznius is what helps us in our struggles against the y”h, so consequently this is part of what helped us adhere to Torah living. But it’s a cycle. Learning for the sake of learning about our traditions without doing the mitzvohs of keeping Shabbos, bris milah, eating kosher, etc. will not get us too far. Therefore chumros help us to ADHERE to halacha and to practice and live with halacha.

    Remember, part of what the Chashmonuim fought the Greeks was because of Shabbos and bris milah too.

    Chumros is not the right word, it’s true. But I am talking here to people who see it as such, much like I see some very frum people practicing what I feel is chumros that the Torah doesn’t demand of us.

    But the truth is, whatever keeps us from violating halacha is part of halacha and they are not chumros.

    #1025898

    philosopher
    Member

    ir, you and I believe that what our Gedolim poskened regarding tznius is halacha, but some in the CR don’t see them as their Gedolim. They say their Rabbis poskened differently and everything else is chumros.(No not gavra, whom I answered looks at these halachos as chumras.)

    If you look at it that way, then these chumros are essential to our continued adherence to the halachas of tznius.

    #1025899

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Clearheaded:

    That is why the Rov has to have his own Rebbe/Rov, who can guide him from the pitfalls.

    “But when talking about yirah shomayim, it is completely up to us. As Chazal (I think it think the source for this posuk is Chazal) say everything is in the hands of shomayim with the exception of yiras shomayim.”

    Of course. Are you saying that the problems we see with non compliance with Halachic Tznius are due to a lack in Yiras Shomayim?

    #1025900

    philosopher
    Member

    Of course. Are you saying that the problems we see with non compliance with Halachic Tznius are due to a lack in Yiras Shomayim?

    Yes, there is definitely a lack of Yiras Shomayim in the areas of tznius, but mainly it is lack of acknowledgment of the vital importance of tznius and the terrible consequences when we are not betznius. By terrible consequences, I don’t davka mean that Hasehm will cause us tzaros, although that may as well be. Rather I mean the steady and unconscious weakening and corruption of our kedusha which effects ourselves and our children.

    Lack of yiras shomayim in the area of tznius does not necassarily mean that one is lacking yiras shomayim of Hashem in other areas, for example, loshen hora. There are very tzniusdige dressed women who have no yiras shomayim in other areas. One can be a yirah shomayim in one area and not the other. Therefore we need to have YIRAS shomayim, not just YIRAH shomayim. However lacking yirah shomayim in the area of tznius can eventually cause a total lack of yiras shomayim in all areas, sometimes not for the untzniusdige woman herself, but for the next generation. Certainly there is a downgrading of the entire community in yiras shomayim when frum women are not dressed or don’t act btznius.

    #1025901

    philosopher
    Member

    Now, here’s another point of view.

    Men have no business staring at other women. It’s true that I don’t have a man’s yetzer hora and I don’t understand what that entails.

    But is it fair to your wife, beside of to yourself, when there are men that keep on staring and looking at women? Or talking to them in a certain way, I don’t have to elaborate. I have nebach seen wives, all dressed up and glamorous, they their dress and manner say “look at me, look at me”, because their husbands don’t look, they are busy staring at others.

    These wives feel like something is missing and try to dress in a way that gets them attention because they feel it’s missing.

    I’m not excusing those women’s behavour, but husbands should make sure their wives feel loved and appreciated and beautiful. And they should also say we don’t want you on the streets dressed untzniusdig. And the bottom line is that men who stare at other women should refrain from doing so. It makes their wives feel insecure.

    #1025902

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Clearheaded:

    Yiras shomayim of Hashem is the only yiras shomayim that exists.

    You may be refering to Yiras Chet.

    “mainly it is lack of acknowledgment of the vital importance of tznius and the terrible consequences when we are not betznius”

    Still sounds like Yiras Chet. Perhaps to solve the problem, sources should be provided where it is explained what is required?

    I don’t see anyone eating Pork because of “lack of acknowledgment of the vital importance of not eating pork and the terrible consequences when we eat pork”

    It is almost as if you are saying the girls don’t believe that “Tznius” really exists.

    #1025903

    philosopher
    Member

    Gavra, my apologies. I was partly refering to yiras chet and I should have mentioned that my “vort” about yirah/yiras shomayim was my own. I usually do say that, but here and there I forget to indicate as such.

    Yiras shomayim of Hashem is the only yiras shomayim that exists.

    You may be refering to Yiras Chet.

    There is no yiras chet without yiras shomayim. The two are entertwined. How can you fear sinning without fearing Hashem? Or how can you fear Hashem without fearing to disobey His laws?

    Sometimes, a woman who is not betznius has a total lack of yiras shomayim and consequently a total lack of yiras chet.

    But yes, in certain areas, one can fear Hashem and yet for various reasons will not fear sinning in a particular area, so I guess that would be reffered to as a lack yiras chet. But I would think that a lack of yiras chet, even in one area, is a lack of yiras shomayim in that particular area, because refusal to acknowledge the severity, or excusing oneself with various excuses, show that one does not fear Hashem when it comes to a particular area where one sins continuously and openly. We are not talking about mistakes, beshogeg, but rather openly violating halachas. It may very well indicate a lack of yiras shomayim and consequently yiras chet in one particular area, I would think.

    #1025904

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Clearheaded:

    As you pointed out, Yiras Shomayim & Yiras Chet go hand in hand. The problem with Tznius is either:

    1: The women in question are lacking in Yiras Shomayim in general (which begs the question why are they lax in Tznius over other Mitzvos).

    2: The women in question have Yiras Shomayim, but don’t believe they are doing a Chet.

    Both are possible, and both probably account for many of the problems we see.

    “Lacking Yiras Shomayim in a certain area” does not make sense (to me). Either they fear G-d or they don’t, but not that they only fear G-d for certain things. Punishment maybe, but not Hashem.

    #1025905

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    This is separate in case it doesn’t go through:

    The reason for 1 above is orthopraxy, and the reason for 2 is not teaching our girls the deep rooted basis of Tznius and Das Moshe V’Yehudis in Halacha (vs. being a “modern idea”).

    #1025906

    philosopher
    Member

    gavra, I totally agree with your assesment. But my theory regarding having no yiras shomayim in certain areas is because there seems to be blockages that people have towards their sin of choice that escapes their fear of heaven which they do have otherwise. I have seen women/girls daven with great concentration, having that personal connection to the Aibishter, while their knees are uncovered.

    These women/girls are yirah shomayim. They will fear other sin like loshen hora, but because of peer pressure or other reasons, they do not have a fear of Hashem when it comes to tznius.

    We all as humans have failures, we struggle with our yetzer hora, but usually if we fear Hashem we can say next time we won’t get in kaas, next time we won’t speak loshen hora, but there is an awareness of sin.

    Lgabeh tznius, which is not a character habit that one chaps afterward, rather conscious desicions which cloths to buy, some people who do have yiras shomayim simply will not think about whether they are doing wrong tznius-wise even though it’s pretty obvious, for example they wear very tight-fitted clothes.

    #1025907

    so right
    Member

    If the community actively punished those who dress untzniusdik, it would have an impact and reduce the massive chillul Hashem and many other aveiros they do with this act, and even worse cause many others to sin.

    Unfortunately (since there is no beis din) even though we can’t give her malkos for their public pritzus transgressions, as that would likely be most effective in reducing this crime, we have other avenues available to us. We could not give aliyos to husbands and fathers who allow their wives and daughters to go in public in a non-tznius manner. Or other potential punishments that can be utilized.

    #1025909

    koachshtika
    Member

    How about we stop giving Aliyahs to people who talk in Shul? Talking in Shul was blamed for some of the worst massacres of Jews.

    I’m not bothered by women, I am bothered by people who talk in shul. You can choose not to look in a given direction, it’s hard to choose not to hear people who insist on talking in shul.

    EDITED

    #1025911

    Max Well
    Member

    I agree. We should stop giving aliyos to talkers AND those who allow pritzus. The latter though is immeasurably worse, as they are not only sinning themselves, but are causing untold numbers of others to sin as well.

    #1025912

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    How about we stop giving Aliyahs to people who talk in Shul? Talking in Shul was blamed for some of the worst massacres of Jews.

    Ooooh… don’t get me started. Talking in shul is one of my pet peeves. I personally cannot stand it when people talk in shul (although, to be brutally fair and honest, I am one of the worst offenders during krias haTorah).

    The Wolf

    #1025913

    squeak
    Participant

    I am one of the worst offenders during krias haTorah).

    The Wolf

    What about between aliyos? I’m trying to be melamed zchus here 🙂

    #1025914

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What about between aliyos? I’m trying to be melamed zchus here 🙂

    If you talk through laining, what’s the point of being quiet between aliyos? 🙁

    The Wolf

    #1025915

    Max Well
    Member

    Wolf: I would hope you are at least talking Torah during leining.

    #1025916

    squeak
    Participant

    Do you really mean that? I think that if you talk through the entire davening – start to finish – except for 10 seconds where you observe proper shul decorum, you are a step better than if you talked with no exception.

    #1025917

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: I would hope you are at least talking Torah during leining.

    Does it matter? It’s just as bad to talk Torah during laining as it to talk anything else. And, sadly, I cannot do teshuva for it, as I don’t really regret it. 🙁

    The Wolf

    #1025918

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I think that if you talk through the entire davening – start to finish – except for 10 seconds where you observe proper shul decorum, you are a step better than if you talked with no exception.

    Not universally — but when it comes to the difference between during laining and between aliyos, then yes. It is no better to be silent during aliyos if you’re going to talk during laining. I feel very strongly about that.

    The Wolf

    #1025919

    Max Well
    Member

    “Does it matter?”

    Yes, it matters. If you are talking Torah, you don’t need teshuva. It is a kappara all its own.

    #1025920

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yes, it matters. If you are talking Torah, you don’t need teshuva. It is a kappara all its own.

    I strenuously disagree with that. One who discusses Gemara, for example, is doing two things wrong — he’s not listening to the laining and he’s disturbing others (including, potentially, the ba’al kriah). The fact that he’s learning does not make up for that. The fact that it’s rude only makes it worse — one has no right to be rude while learning.

    The Wolf

    #1025921

    Max Well
    Member

    But what if he is “talking Torah”?

    #1025922

    just last nite i was very disturbed by this obvious breach in tznius. i was at a wedding of a schoolmate, and i was disgusted to see how some guests were dressed. these girls, some still in high school, others married with their own kids, all come from fine, FRUM families, and their skirts were tight and above their knees, their blouses/shirts were very flashy…

    g2g but it was very disturbing

    #1025923

    squeak
    Participant

    Wolf,

    I must ask you about the usage of “kriah” as in “Ba’al kriah”. I agree that when speaking in the plural sense, “Ba’alei kriah” is appropriate. But when speaking in singular, “Ba’al korei” seems more appropriate.

    IANABD (I am not a ba’al dikduk) – Just asking a sincere question

    #1025924

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But what if he is “talking Torah”?

    I don’t understand. How is this any different than the last question that you asked which I answered above. Talking Torah during laining is wrong… period. It’s k’neged halacha and it’s rude.

    The Wolf

    #1025925

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I must ask you about the usage of “kriah” as in “Ba’al kriah”.

    I believe it’s more correct and is similar to the term “Ba’al Tefilah.” Ba’al Kriah means “master of the reading.” I’m not sure what “Ba’al Koreh” means.

    However, I’m not a dikduk expert either and could just as easily be wrong.

    The Wolf

    #1025926

    squeak
    Participant

    I will submit the question to someone who is, then.

    #1025927

    Max Well
    Member

    just last nite i was very disturbed by this obvious breach in tznius. i was at a wedding of a schoolmate, and i was disgusted to see how some guests were dressed. these girls, some still in high school, others married with their own kids, all come from fine, FRUM families, and their skirts were tight and above their knees, their blouses/shirts were very flashy…

    g2g but it was very disturbing

    That is very disturbing.

    The problem is getting worse and worse. It is time for drastic action.

    #1025928

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I will submit the question to someone who is, then.

    Please. And please find out the reasoning (one way or the other).

    The Wolf

    #1025929

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It is time for drastic action.

    What drastic things did you have in mind?

    The Wolf

    #1025930

    Max Well
    Member

    Someone made a suggestion above. Not a bad idea, though perhaps not drastic enough. This problem is so serious, that perhaps a unrepentant sinner should be publicly shamed with their names in the paper.

    #1025931

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    This problem is so serious, that perhaps a unrepentant sinner should be publicly shamed with their names in the paper.

    Okay… so the cure for the aveira of immodesty is the aveira of lashon hara?

    That, also, leaves aside the question of who, exactly, is an “unrepentant sinner.” Is a woman who doesn’t wear stockings in the summer an “unrepentant sinner?” In other words, whose standards of tznius are we going to use to determine who is, in fact, a “sinner?*”

    The Wolf

    * And please don’t say “the Torah’s standards.” You know as well as I do that there are numerous interpretations of what that means. I’m asking for specific details.

    The Wolf

    #1025932

    Max Well
    Member

    It is actually the mitzvah of tochacho.

    And lets not use the cop out since there are different standards we should not do anything. Uncovered knees, whether all the time or when in various positions, is beyond the pale.

    #1025933

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It is actually the mitzvah of tochacho.

    There are guidelines to tochacha. Do they include public shaming in a newspaper? If so, please present a source that indicates such.

    And lets not use the cop out since there are different standards we should not do anything. Uncovered knees, whether all the time or when in various positions, is beyond the pale.

    I’m not coping out. I’m asking a specific question. What are the standards that will be used to determine the “sinners?”

    The Wolf

    #1025934

    Max Well
    Member

    It was cited earlier in the thread. Sefer HaChinuch perek 239. If they are unrepentant after being properly advised, to publicly shame them.

    Uncovered knees or elbows is a standard.

    #1025935

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Uncovered knees or elbows is a standard.

    I’m not asking for *a* standard… I’m asking for *the* standard. The difference is this:

    If uncovered knees and elbows are “the standard” then anything else beyond it is okay. Tight clothes? Red? No stockings? And so on.

    In other words, what I’m looking for is this: what things will you NOT look at when determining who is a “sinner?” What are ALL the things that you will be looking at when making this determination.

    The Wolf

    #1025936

    Max Well
    Member

    Let’s start with that. I think the message will get through loud and clear even using just that minimal standard.

    #1025937

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Let’s start with that.

    No, no, no. It can’t be “let’s start with that.” There have to be clear guidlines as to where you will *end.* Otherwise, it just degenerates into a “witch hunt” of ever-stricter policies. People deserve to know at the outset at what point they will be free from harassment — deserved or not.

    The point is that you want to encourage (or enforce) compliance, right? Well, to do so, you have to give clear guidelines and not “change the rules” as you go along.

    The Wolf

    #1025938

    Max Well
    Member

    I would propose just that. Uncovered in public at any time or position warrants action.

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