Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

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  • #1025939

    yechezkel89
    Member

    Maxwell: have you ever heard of mitzva haba b’aveira?!! publicly shaming people is a serious aveira and one could potentially lose one’s olam haba. why not not focus on the sinas chinum problem that we have w/i clall yisrael which is much more serious issue that needs to be dealt w/

    #1025940

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Uncovered

    Please define “uncovered.” Lower legs? A tefach of hair?

    And while we’re at it, define “public.” If my wife is in her fenced yard, is that okay?

    Okay, I would propose just that.

    So, that means that women who wear red are going to be free from enforcement? Women who wear tight clothing? “Flashy” sheitels? Women who don’t wear stockings in the summer?

    That’s what I’m trying to get at.

    The Wolf

    EDITED

    #1025941

    Max Well
    Member

    y89 – Apparently you haven’t been following the discussion. The Sefer Hachinuch mandates public shaming as part of tochocho, if the sinner remains unrepentant.

    Wolf – The proposal related to knees and elbows, insofar as the public tochocho is concerned. The discussion only relates to the public tochocho, as defined in the Sefer Hachinuch.

    #1025942

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf – The proposal related to knees and elbows, insofar as the public tochocho is concerned. The discussion only relates to the public tochocho, as defined in the Sefer Hachinuch.

    So, please translate for the idiots among us (like me). Does that mean that you’d leave people alone provided their knees and elbows were covered? And anything else is safe from public shaming (even if you don’t agree with it?)

    The Wolf

    #1025943

    Max Well
    Member

    For the umpteenth time, if their knees and elbows are covered in public at all times and positions, they would not be subject to the public tochocho I am describing.

    #1025944

    yechezkel89
    Member

    maxwell: tochacha (via public shaming) only works if the person is going to listen, if not then it’s totally asur. w/ regards to this particular issue or non issue there is absolutely no justification w/i halacha to do such a thing.

    #1025945

    Max Well
    Member

    y89 – You are wrong. There is a reasonable chance (not a certainty) that if someones name was in the “HaPrutza” section, every week, of the paper, she would take corrective action.

    This is what the Sefer Hachinuch mandates.

    #1025946

    koachshtika
    Member

    But why limit public shaming to just skirts you have an issue?

    We can issue an entire bulletin with the names of everyone who is seen doing anything that is in any way inappropriate.

    We can have a list of names of everyone who wears skirts above the knee, everyone who has a television in the house, everyone who talks in shul, everyone who acts like a baal gaiva, everyone who has internet in the house, everyone who has a non-kosher cell phone, everyone who does not buy chalav yisroel… and everyone who embarrasses someone else berabim.

    This will be for their own good.

    And when everyone sees their name has already been submitted by someone to the paper, they will actually start working on their own middos. And Klal Yisroel will reach new heights.

    #1025947

    mosherose
    Member

    “You are aware that a shtreimel was originated by the Polish aristocracy, right? “

    Why do you lie about chasidim. They would never wear goyishe clothing. Did you forget lo shinu as malbushum.

    i think you owe every chosid who weres a streimel an apoligy.

    #1025948

    mosherose
    Member

    “Tumah isn’t something you can touch or feel.”

    You can feel tuma. You just have to be sensitive enouf to it. Obviously yur not.

    #1025949

    mosherose
    Member

    “Talking in shul is one of my pet peeves. I personally cannot stand it when people talk in shul (although, to be brutally fair and honest, I am one of the worst offenders during krias haTorah).”

    If it bothers you that much stop talking. Or are you happier being a hipocrit who is mad at people for talking when you do it yourself.

    #1025950

    mosherose
    Member

    “And, sadly, I cannot do teshuva for it, as I don’t really regret it. 🙁 “

    So youll just answer for it on the yom hadin. I wouldnt want to be you then.

    #1025951

    Max Well
    Member

    koach – I was limiting to a clear-cut issur d’oraysa. Other issues in that category too can be included in this tochocho of folks who were lovingly advised and nevertheless blatantly continued to sin – and in public to boot.

    #1025952

    koachshtika
    Member

    Your idea of a issur d’oraysa, is not all that clear cut actually. And television and the internet have plenty of material on them that is a violation of tznius. Are you saying that it’s worse to wear a skirt above the knee, than to expose your family to all sorts of tumaa?

    But as long as you’re picking and choosing, which warnings from the Gedolim to take seriously. And proposing courses that they didn’t approve…

    #1025953

    Dave Hirsch
    Participant

    And exactly which newspaper will publish such lists? Hamodia or Yated? 🙂

    I don’t know why you guys are searching for punishments. The Gemara already rules a punishment for offenders and that is ‘Yotzah Blo Kesuba’. This Din applies nowadays as well (without a Beis Din) and can be enforced through our Gedolim (if they want to). I think that with todays divorce rate you can even use it only as a threat. The guidelines are as stated in Gemara (such as elbows uncovered even sometimes, hair in public areas etc.) The grey area however will be, as The Wolf pointed out, stockings (below the knee) and Tefach of hair, which according to some are included in Das Yehudis while some argue. You could say however that it should go according to Minhag Hamakom.

    #1025954

    Max Well
    Member

    kosch – not at all. We can equally include other clear-cut issurei d’orayso. Pritzus is a clear-cut issur. Since there was a discussion of what actually constitutes pritzus, I used a very basic issue.

    #1025956

    Sister Bear
    Member

    I never learned the Sefer HaChinuch but don’t you have to be really careful that they are sinning just to sin or something, not because the Yetzer Harah is very strong? I might very well be wrong but to my logic if your not allowed to just call people Reshaim then it could be by this too.

    #1025957

    Max Well
    Member

    Dave Hirsch:

    ‘Yotzah Blo Kesuba’ is only applicable to married offenders. Unmarried offenders also need to be dealt with. Hence the aforementioned ideas.

    Additionally, although (as you said) ‘Yotzah Blo Kesuba’ is a valid and necessary punishment for married offenders, it would prove insufficient. This is due to the fact that these brazen offenders would likely resort to non-Jewish courts (in another violation of halacha) to pursue their divorce case and receive monies they are un-entitled to under Torah law and halacha – as properly administered by Beis Din.

    #1025958

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If it bothers you that much stop talking. Or are you happier being a hipocrit who is mad at people for talking when you do it yourself.

    So youll just answer for it on the yom hadin. I wouldnt want to be you then.

    As much as I usually disagree with you, on this you are 100% right. I am a hypocrite in this regard and I have no doubt that I will have to answer to the Ultimate Judge for my sin of talking and disturbing people during krias HaTorah one day. Teshuva cannot help me because I don’t really regret it. 🙁

    The Wolf

    #1025959

    wolf is a baal koreh, that’s why he “talks” during laining.

    #1025961

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    wolf is a baal koreh, that’s why he “talks” during laining.

    Nonetheless, I have full confidence that I will one day be taken to task for it and have to give a full Din V’Cheshbon on it. 🙁

    The Wolf

    #1025962

    i waited for quite a while to spoil your fun, but no sense needlessly aggravating people.

    #1025963

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i waited for quite a while to spoil your fun, but no sense needlessly aggravating people.

    I wasn’t trying to aggravate anyone. My apologies if that’s the way it came out.

    The Wolf

    #1025964

    i didnt think you were TRYING to aggravate anyone. just being humorous.

    #1025965

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i didnt think you were TRYING to aggravate anyone. just being humorous.

    Granted, you have good reason to think that based on past history. Nonetheless, that’s not the case this time. Sadly, emotions don’t come out very well in text.

    The Wolf

    #1025966

    rescue37
    Participant

    If the husband does not protest right away then he loses the upperhand of ‘Yotzah Blo Kesuba’

    #1025967

    Moq
    Member

    This is a little silly. Do you think that publishing people’s names in a newspaper will actually get anything done? Sure, we can burn tires in front of their homes as well. But we will only be adding to the 97% of Khal Yisrael that is not frum. Yes, throw her out without a Kesubah. It usually is a joint effort, if not with the open then the tactile approval of the husband. And find the husband who is looking to throw out the mother of his children because she doesn’t cover her knees. Sure, it’s all true from a technical halachic standpoint, but irrelevant, because certainly we’re trying to actually get something done, not just make some noise.

    Is there a problem? Certainly. I don’t know the solution, and know that we men are just as much part of the problem. Women are merely the canary in the coal mine. The priorities of our community have been dramatically warped in the last decade, and the battle lines have been redrawn totally. The infusion of Kollel, a Shidduch Crisis, internet addiction, a general destruction of any semeblance of decency in geenral secular culture have taken their horrible toll. But “for every thousand who strike at the leaves of evil, there is one striking at the root” – Thoreau.

    Rumor has it – and where or not it happened is irrelevant, as it is still true – that a Bais Yakov HS asked for permission to edit their photos in their yearbook. Apparently, your HS photo is your photo for shidduch eternity. They decided to test out the hypothesis. They inserted the photo of a model, made up a name and added horrible lashon hara about her throughout the yearbook, and added that she was going into rehab instead of seminary. The Menaheles received a number of phone from shadchanim, and one from a parent. The girls got permission to photoshop their photos. Sad, really. But reality. That’s the reality we’ve gotto change. Ultimately, under the surface, in the guts of things, we worship beauty. Just not as openly as the secular world. When that worhsip really changes, then things will change. Until then, young ladies will live according to that which we teach them – really, really, teach, what we demand for our sons, not that which we preach. But how do we change? How does a community change? The delicate channel we have the secular world, taking the good and leaving the bad – has become skewed. And now what?

    I wish I had the glib one line, terribly sure answer, and comfortably condemn thousands of women to the depths of hell, unless, of course they listen to me immediately. I know that I’m part of the problem, and that I’ve got to change. That’s going to be hard enough for me.

    Besides, we’d have to add another supplement to the Hamodiah for such a list, and that something I certainly wouldn’t want responsiblity for.

    #1025968

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Moq:

    The Menaheles received a number of phone from shadchanim, and one from a parent.

    But were they calls that they wanted dates, because she was a model, just like having served time is good for shidduchim, or were they calls not to date?

    I assume from the story that they were calls to date, but you are not clear.

    #1025969

    oomis
    Participant

    “tactile” (means related to sense of touch)

    Did you mean tacit approval? What you wrote was unintentionally humorous, given the nature of this forum. And please forgive me, I am not trying to embarrass you – I thought it was a cute mistake (the type which I make very often).

    #1025970

    oomis
    Participant

    I understood it to mean they WANTED to set the “yearbook girl” up, because she was so beautiful, no one cared about the rest of the stuff written about her.Even if it was fake, it certainly proved the (shallow) point that we are too preoccupied with looks.

    #1025971

    Moq
    Member

    Oops! Indeed, your tact is appreciated! No pun intend, though I wish I could claim I did.

    Also, I’m sorry I wrote in a rush, – yes, you are correct. All of the various callers had seen the yearbook picture and wanted their boy to go out with the model – regardless of her obvious issues. So what exactly is going to happen? that’s the real message our girls get, just like the father who darshans to his children about the importance of learning, and spending every night watching dvds. They too, will watch dvds while they berate their sons to learn…

    #1025972

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Moq:

    See my note above regarding Orthopraxy.

    Also (personal curiosity) what is “Moq” (other than “begin”, or a mock object)?

    #1025973

    I thought everyone knew this

    Moq is a .NET Framework library for creating mock objects. It leverages C# 3.0 lambda expressions, typically used in Test Driven Development and Behavior Driven Development.

    #1025974

    MOQ also as an acronym for: Moderator Officers Quarters. It’s located on the 14th floor of Moderator Hall. I’ve never been invited there, but I hear it’s quite plush.

    #1025975

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    A mock object (option 2 that I listed).

    I’m just wondering if there is some svara behind it (unless he or she is a programmer, of course).

    I wouldn’t even know how to pronounce it.

    #1025976

    Actually, Moderator 72 once had me bring him some coffee there, but he didn’t even open the door. Just had me put it down outside the door and leave.

    They tell me that if I keep working on my coffee brewing skills, someday I too will be allowed to live there, but I think they don’t really mean it.

    #1025977

    squeak
    Participant

    I assumed it was just meant to compete with me

    #1025979

    Helpful
    Member

    Moq, doing nothing about the problems you recognize, is the worst approach of all.

    #1025980

    so right
    Member

    the rabbonim have been crying out against the terrible breaches in tznius, especially during the summer, but recently it has gotten out of hand all year long.

    #1025981

    Moq
    Member

    Helpful –

    Do you mean that any solution is better then no solution? That seems destructive. Obviously, when we dare do something, we need to have some realistic hope for a positive outcome. If we know a negative outcome with come about – as has come from many initiatives take from the point of view of ‘just do something’ – aren’t we using the ammo left to make things worse? Sev V’Al Taaseh Adif.

    But I don’t propose doing nothing. I propose the problems isn’t “those evil prutzahs”. I propose we as a society – men and women – need to do some soul searching, and reevaluate our priorities.

    What do we really worship? And ultimately, we’ve got to first ourselves – and then others – what real priorities are in life, and the real Torah place of money, power and beauty. If we fix the underlying problem, the symptom will fade away, without any need for bleach. Or tires. Or signs. Or terribly large seforim which have little to do with Halacha, but running on the terrible need to make more and more rules to compensate for the lost feeling of tzinius. Maybe we should – instead – try to get tzinius back? But tzinius means not just tzinius in dress – but tzinius in our lives and goals, in all aspect, men and women.

    Has the sledgehammer mehalach ever worked in our generation? EVER? Or has it just made people defensive? Has anyone really done anything because you threaten them?

    This is not Europe. There is no organized Kehilla. We need to accept these realities, and look inward.


    As far the origins of Moq, I plead the fifth, though I wish I could claim programming proficiency, it’s a skill I lack. I know nothing of .NET and the like.

    #1025982

    philosopher
    Member

    Do you mean that any solution is better then no solution? That seems destructive.

    Doing nothing is the most destructive thing of all. One has a chiuv to protest pritzus or any other sin in a suitable forum. What negative outcomes can happen if one writes in places such as the CR or other non-threatening places, such as writing letters to publications and the like, about the importance of tznius?

    I propose the problems isn’t “those evil prutzahs”.

    Prutzasdige women are part of the problem. They are not babies. They are adults who make adult decisions and should know better. We will all be held accountable for are deeds, prutzahs included.

    I propose we as a society – men and women – need to do some soul searching, and reevaluate our priorities.

    That would be the ideal situation, but it will never happen if people will not be aware of the harshness of pritzus.

    Or terribly large seforim which have little to do with Halacha, but running on the terrible need to make more and more rules to compensate for the lost feeling of tzinius.

    If you are talking about Rabbi Falk’s sefer, then it has much to do about halachas of tznius.

    You are right though. It cannot compensate for the lost feelings of tznius. That’s a tragedy in itself.

    Has the sledgehammer mehalach ever worked in our generation? EVER? Or has it just made people defensive? Has anyone really done anything because you threaten them?

    On this forum, I don’t see anyone threatening anybody. Saying the truth about din v’cheshbon is not threatening. It is saying the truth.

    Also, in a lot of schools where tznius is very enforced, the majority of girls do end up being tzniusdig as married women. Learning about tznius and enforcing the rules from when girls are young, create a feeling of tznius in these girls which doesn’t change for most of them, even after marriage.

    It is also very important to create a feeling FOR tznius, not just OF tznius, as you are trying to say. But the bottom line is that, yes, using the sledghammer to chisel a beautiful form of a Jewish daughter as opposed to leaving one huge blob of a human is what we are doing our entire lives in chinuch as parents and educators. Certainly we should do that in the area of tznius.

    This is not Europe. There is no organized Kehilla. We need to accept these realities, and look inward.

    Wow! You brought out a very good point. Maybe that is the problem and that’s why in the Chassidishe communities halachas of tznius are , in the majority of cases, mostly adhered to.

    #1025983

    Josh31
    Participant

    “Besides, we’d have to add another supplement to the Hamodiah for such a list,”

    Wrong forum. This list will be done through a new thread in the YWN Coffee Room. It will be a “sticky” thread titled “Unrepentant Sinners List”.

    #1025984

    HadaLXTP
    Member

    I haven’t been reading this thread only intermittently. So, please forgive me if this has been spoken about already.

    It bothers me tremendously when girls wearing shirts that look very nice when standing up but when they bend over or sit down, one sees more then they bargained for. Please don’t tell me not to look. It happens everywhere. In the grocery, on the street when someone bends down to pick up something or tie a shoe lace. Whats wrong with having a stylish t-shirt that is long enough. I know there are t-shirts like that out there, just not enough sadly.

    HALXTP

    #1025985

    so right
    Member

    hadalxtp: that is, very unfortunately, so true. imo t-shirts are not tznius in general; but what you are describing is even far far worse and happens with inappropriately sized regular shirts as well.

    #1025986

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Has printing the name of of husbands who have ignored a Beis Din’s order to give a get ever helped?

    We don’t live in a shtetl in Europe. Will a non-jew or a secular Jew walking down Ave J or 13 ave skimply dressed care?

    #1025987

    so right
    Member

    so are you against the printing of those husbands names? at least lets be consistent. and even if the non-jew/non-religious won’t change, perhaps it’ll help with those who consider themselves frum.

    #1025988

    Josh31
    Participant

    On a more serious note:

    Tznius is probably the most difficult area of Chinuch. Those who are involved must have the proper Hashkafah, intent and strategy.

    #1025989

    Helpful
    Member

    I completely agree Josh.

    #1025991

    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Bump

    #1025992

    Josh31
    Participant

    If we are looking for a scapegoat to blame problems upon we must remember:

    The Sa-ir LaAzazel (goat taken to the cliff in the Yom Kippur temple service) must be male, not female.

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