@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

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  • This topic contains 514 replies, has 46 voices, and was last updated by  Toi 7 months ago.
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  • #1467380

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I talk to my mother in law too, I talk to my boss too, why are you so bothered by who people are talking to???

    I hope not the way we talk to Hashem.

    #1467381

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    but the Rebbe made it very clear to me that both ways are acceptable

    I thought you were born after the Rebbe was niftar?

    #1467384

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Maybe you’re better at explaining. Great one with bringing belzer example.

    As was pointed out multiple times, the analogy is completely inapt.

    #1467386

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It seems to me that people are badly biased against Chabad

    Not personally. If anything, we (meaning Litvish yeshiva trained people) are more culturally similar to Chabad than to other chassidim. The issue is purely hashkafic (I can’t speak for litvisherchossid or others, but that’s certainly how I feel).

    Rebyid23 your question has already been addressed in this thread.

    Where?

    #1467401

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @DY how is it different? Exactly the same thing! Betten the Rebbe.

    If the issue is purely hashkafa, and you don’t know who the Rebbe was, wouldn’t you trust R Moshe Feinstein who was the posek hador for halacha? Im trying to be Dan lchaf zechus, but it’s getting really difficult. I’m not here to be bashed or attacked when I have solid sources. If you’d like to understand, I’m happy to explain. As a fellow frum Jew. Not happy to be treated the way I have. And btw you never addressed the numerous sources brought, just ignored then and continued to insist that were the opposite of ovdei Hashem cvs

    #1467404

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    5ish,

    I talk to my mother in law too, I talk to my boss too

    On the telephone or in person I’m sure, not whispers in your heart while no other person is with you.

    why are you so bothered by who people are talking to???

    Because Chabadshlucha is part of my spiritual family, and I am alarmed by some of the things I have read. Her “I talk … directly to Hashem too” comment was specifically a follow-up to this:

    “When we ask the Rebbe for help, were not asking him as a human. That would be wrong as we only ask Hashem for things like the Rambam says. Were asking Hashem, through his human messenger”

    Whether you like it or not, the Rebbe was a human, and this statement is dangerously wrong. It is identical in every way shape and form to Christian theology, where J-man is claimed to be perfect (conquered his yetzer hara), a manifestation of G-d’s “word” on Earth (chas veshalom), and that, by praying to him, one is not praying to a human, but praying to G-d, “in J-man’s name.” 2000 years ago the Jews objected to this, and were denigrated as Pharisees obsessed with the “Law” and blind to the “Truth.” Now the term “Misnagdim” is hurled at the non-believers. Villains who act, not because they have genuine, deeply held beliefs, but because they hate and are jealous of the “true believers”, and seek to tear them down. 2000 years of bloodshed against the Jews arose from this type of accusation. Do we really want to walk down that road again?

    Guess what? I don’t hate Chabad. I owe Chabad tremendous hakaras hatov, and have given sustained financial support. This thread has shaken me to the core.

    #1467406

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “If anything, we (meaning Litvish yeshiva trained people) are more culturally similar to Chabad than to other chassidim.”

    If by “culturally” you refer strictly to dress code and nothing else, then yes.

    I would personally assert that the difference in learning regiment and the very clear alcohol culture of Chabad are cultural differences where we would be more similar to the Chassidim than to Chabad.

    #1467422

    Toi
    Participant

    I think it’s clear that @cs has some sort of mental block, making her incapable of digesting what’s going on. If she doesn’t comprehend why we have a problem with her communicating with/things being made clear by a dead Rebbe, why does anyone think progress is possible? It’s not. I feel like this is Ben Shapiro vs quacky lefties.

    #1467423

    RSo
    Participant

    Neville’s response to someone criticizing me: “100% on point. I don’t think he’s being harsh at all.”

    Are you sure you’re not just sticking up for me because I highly complimented your choice or name?

    #1467426

    RSo
    Participant

    CS wrote: the Rebbe made it very clear to me that both ways are acceptable””

    I assume you mean via the igros as you were born after he passed away. So I have a question for you and for every lubavitch chossid on this thread: Who said that you can rely on the igros?

    Obviously not the rebbe himself, so what gives whoever it was or they were to invent something so weird without any reliable source?

    #1467431

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @avrammd again Im being misunderstood. I wrote that the Rebbe is human in the very line you quoted. 5ish rephrased it nicely. As for how we talk to our Rebbe, see this mainstream Chabad camp song below:

    Rebbe mein teyere Tatte
    This Pan I write to you
    My emotions deep within me
    I can only turn to you

    I hear them speak of farbrengens
    Of hours spent together
    Of your hand constantly giving
    And a smile of love and care

    But Rebbe I’m so young
    I feel so very small
    I wish I too had a memory to recall
    How will I grow to be
    What the Rebbe wants of me
    Tatte please tell me how my life I should lead

    My kind, dont worry I’m here with you
    Learning my Torah makes it clear to you
    That the world is ready the time is near
    Spreading my Torah brings Moshiach here
    Higiah zman Geulaschem

    Repeat: But Rebbe I’m so young…

    #1467432

    laskern
    Participant

    See Bamidbor (13,22) Parshes Shelach Rashi ויבא עד חברון Kolev went to the grave of the Avos to pray that they should help him not to follow the Meraglim’s advice.

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1467434

    Non Political
    Participant

    @cs

    “If the issue is purely hashkafa, and you don’t know who the Rebbe was, wouldn’t you trust R Moshe Feinstein who was the posek hador for halacha”

    The fact that HaRav Moshe Z”L (and other Gedolim) held a high opinion of the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L does not = an endorsement of his specific position, especially the ones mentioned in this thread. This is true even when the position is built on the words of Chazal. What you need is examples where HaRav Moshe (or other Gedolim) are on record supporting the specific position under discussion.

    Merely citing the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L as a source in these cases is not enough. Why Not? The problem is NOT that he is not a legitimate Torah source. No, the problem is that when a legitimate Torah source takes a novel position and:
    1) all Gedolim (for who we have evidence that they are are familiar with the position) are opposed
    2) no Gedolim (for who we have evidence that they are familiar with the position) are in favor
    such a position is rejected.

    I have raised this point twice before in this thread and you have ignored it. Why? This is not a controversial point. In fact it is blatantly evident both from halachic sources as well as simple logic.

    Your response would be greatly appreciated.

    #1467451

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @AvrumInMD,
    “Because Chabadshlucha is part of my spiritual family, and I am alarmed by some of the things I have read. Her “I talk … directly to Hashem too” comment was specifically a follow-up to this:”

    I also was alarmed when I saw the “too” comment CS made. I was typing a response when she wrote it, but then got distracted with something else and never wrote anything. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, ChabadShlucha isn’t a representative of Chabad philosophy and practice (I’ll write this in parentheses, at the risk of seriously insulting her, I really doubt that she’s a recognized official Shlucha, under the auspices of Merkos L’inyonei Chinuch. I suspect that because she’s involved in Chinuch, she’s just using the term Shlucha. I may be wrong though…) as we’ve discussed here before, we both have vastly different opinions on what the essence of Chabad is, and Meshichistism especially. Regarding what she wrote earlier,
    “Sechel I understand that you are a chossid although we have differences in how we are mekushar. Just because you may not hold of iggros etc. doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with it. In fact, quite the opposite. I know it’s tempting to think you’re
    way is right and 70% of Chabad is wrong, but the Rebbe made it very clear to me that both ways are acceptable, and therefore I’ve kept quiet many times when you’ve said things I disagree with. I expect the same courtesy.”

    Firstly, I strongly disagree with your stats and numbers here. I don’t know anyone who shares your opinion on this issue. (You may be in the majority regarding Moshiach, but not here)

    Secondly, I indeed do have an issue with “asking Igros” it’s a practice that has no source in anything the Rebbe said or encouraged, and is in fact contrary to what the Rebbe did say about using sforim (any sforim) for such things. I can quote you an exact source in Likkutei Sichos if you like. I think I already did in a previous thread.
    If asking Igros got you a response that indicates that asking Igros is okay, that’s one of the weakest arguments I’ve ever heard. In all honesty, the Rebbe never made anything clear to you, as you were born shortly before or after Gimmel Tammuz.

    I think all of you here are basing your opinions on Lubavitch on hearsay and internet opinions. In reality, we don’t have an “alcohol culture” the way described here at all. Majority of farbrengens I’ve attended, in or out of Yeshivas, nobody was even mildly drunk. I’ve never been drunk in my life. (And I can legally buy alcohol). The Rebbe made a rule, known as “The Gzerah” forbidding anyone under 40 of consuming more than 4 Kelishkes, or a Reviis of mashke.
    I’m not going to engage in the “no true Scotsman fallacy” even though in this case it is quite tempting.

    If you really want to see what we do, and who we are, come visit your local Lubavitcher Yeshiva. Attend a farbrengen there. Speak to the Hanhala and the Bochurim. Watch them sit and learn Gerama and Chassidus. Sit in on a shiur. If anyone is serious about it, I’ll tell you where your nearest Chabad Yeshiva is.

    #1467508

    Kovna
    Participant

    why is it called gezeira maybe takana a gezeira is a term by chazal back in the day, now we dont have that level of ruach kodesh even the gedolim previously didnt have this level so of course the lubavitcher rebbe ,unless it means like by a king and this also he wasnt a king he didnt have all the halachik dinim he wasnt the leader for all of klal yisrael,everyone had and still have their own leaders ayn melech blo am.

    #1467520

    slabodka
    Participant

    @cs
    “What the Rebbe wants of me
    Tatte please tell me how my life I should lead”

    You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. Don’t you see the problem? HELLO? What the rebbe wants of me? What about what Hashem wants of me?
    But it seems this is what you have been indoctrinated with since your earliest days so this seems normal to you. And that’s why you think everyone here questioning you and your hashkafos don’t want to know the truth, and are just “out to get you.”

    #1467545

    Toi
    Participant

    Here’s something from an individual who was a counselor and teacher at Camp Gan Yisroel of Montreal, Camp Gan Yisroel of Parksville, NY and Camp Gan Yisroel of Los Angeles:

    “There is a song that we would sing with the kids every day, here is the chorus:

    “The Rebbe is,
    The Rebbe lives,
    The Rebbe cares,
    The Rebbe hears,
    The Rebbes sees,
    The Rebbe leads,
    He is concerned for all our needs.

    The Rebbe is,
    The Rebbe gives,
    The Rebbe sees,
    The Rebbe speaks,
    The Rebbe smiles…”

    #1467549

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Slabokda,
    “What the rebbe wants of me? What about what Hashem wants of me?”

    A Rebbe, in any Chassidus, is a Moreh Derech, someone who instructs you how best to live your life. This is not unique to Lubavitch. I’m sure Litvaks have such a concept too.

    #1467550

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Lubavitch, In ALL your plans and wishes you say ” To make NACHAS RUACH FOR THE REBBE”. Malkizedek / Shem was blamed by Chaza”l for mentioning Avrohom Avinu’s blessing before Hashem’s, here you omit “Nachas Ruach for Hashem” completely. It is NOT the Rebbe who wants us to obey the Torah, it is the “Nosein Hatora”!

    #1467565

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @samthenylic,
    Do you ever try be a source of Nachas to your parents? I guess not.

    #1467574

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ 5ish

    “I know a man who thinks he can connect to God through making a series of motions with his arms and a pair of inanimate objects. Surely this seems like Avoda Zara…”

    The example of Tephilin (and all other Mitzvot) are not relevant here. (Frankly I’m surprised you didn’t use the example of Kruvim.) All the Mitzvot connect us to Hashem. He commanded them. Are you implying that the practices mentioned in this thread are on somehow on par with Mitzvot from the Torah?

    #1467583

    RSo
    Participant

    samthenylic: “To make NACHAS RUACH FOR THE REBBE”. Malkizedek / Shem was blamed by Chaza”l for mentioning Avrohom Avinu’s blessing before Hashem’s, here you omit “Nachas Ruach for Hashem” completely. It is NOT the Rebbe who wants us to obey the Torah, it is the “Nosein Hatora”!”

    SHY replied: “Do you ever try be a source of Nachas to your parents? I guess not.”

    Parents get nachas from their children in numerous ways, and although Hashem certainly gets nachas from someone who is mechabed his parents, in line with the mitzvah of kibbud av va’eim, it is not the same type of nachas. E.g. Hashem doesn’t ever want a cup of coffee, but if I make a cup of coffee for my parents and thereby give them nachas, as a corollary I am giving nachas to Hashem for fulfilling his mitzvah.

    But according to lubavitch the rebbe is atzmus melubash etc. and he has no outside desires or happiness. Therefore the only way he could possibly get nachas from someone would be if that person was simultaneously giving nachas to Hashem in the identical manner that Hashem wants it, through the fulfillment of Torah and mitzvos. So why mention nachas to the rebbe at all instead of mentioning nachas to Hashem?

    #1467589

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    @samthenylic,
    Do you ever try be a source of Nachas to your parents? I guess not.

    So your thinking that’s an answer?

    If your only response is a dig, don’t press submit. I brings your credibility to question

    #1467593

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @NonPolitical,
    “The example of Tephilin (and all other Mitzvot) are not relevant here. (Frankly I’m surprised you didn’t use the example of Kruvim.) All the Mitzvot connect us to Hashem. He commanded them. Are you implying that the practices mentioned in this thread are on somehow on par with Mitzvot from the Torah?”

    I’m not sure what practice you’re referring to, I possibly missed a few posts, but I can tell that connecting to a Tzadik is a way of connecting to Hashem. As Rashi says:

    ולדבקה בו. אֶפְשָׁר לוֹמָר כֵּן? וַהֲלֹא אֵשׁ אוֹכְלָה הוּא? אֶלָּא הִדָּבֵק בְּתַלְמִידִים וּבַחֲכָמִים וּמַעֲלֶה אֲנִי עָלֶיךָ כְּאִלּוּ נִדְבַּקְתָּ בּוֹ

    #1467592

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Syag,
    “So your thinking that’s an answer?

    If your only response is a dig, don’t press submit. I brings your credibility to question”
    It’s an answer in the form of a question. If you can’t give Nachas to anyone but the Aibershter, how do you aspire to give Nachas to your parents?

    It wasn’t a dig at all. If I’m “digging” you’ll know about it. Trust me.

    #1467611

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Your appearant frustration at people’s questions is misplaced.

    #1467615

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “connecting to a Tzadik is a way of connecting to Hashem. As Rashi says:
    ולדבקה בו. אֶפְשָׁר לוֹמָר כֵּן? וַהֲלֹא אֵשׁ אוֹכְלָה הוּא? אֶלָּא הִדָּבֵק בְּתַלְמִידִים וּבַחֲכָמִים וּמַעֲלֶה אֲנִי עָלֶיךָ כְּאִלּוּ נִדְבַּקְתָּ בּוֹ”

    I’m pretty sure that Rashi there, as well as Chazal when they mention dibbuk chachomim, is talking about live chachomim.

    #1467624

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @non political
    “Merely citing the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L as a source in these cases is not enough. Why Not? The problem is NOT that he is not a legitimate Torah source. No, the problem is that when a legitimate Torah source takes a novel position and:
    1) all Gedolim (for who we have evidence that they are are familiar with the position) are opposed
    2) no Gedolim (for who we have evidence that they are familiar with the position) are in favor
    such a position is rejected.

    I have raised this point twice before in this thread and you have ignored it. Why? This is not a controversial point. In fact it is blatantly evident both from halachic sources as well as simple logic.”

    Sorry I thought I addressed this. Of course the chiddush of WHY its OK to betten beim Rebben belongs to the Rebbe. But theres a HUGE difference between saying this is the Rebbe’s chiddush, and I think its OK for a different reason, (besides no one has addressed the multiple sources brought), and saying that position is the opposite of achdus Hashem cvs.

    It is an oxymoron to say the Rebbe is a Torah giant but his position here is kefira, because that would make the Rebbe and chassidim who follow him the opposite of ovdei Hashem, and you can’t then say that you respect the Rebbe as a Gaon etc.

    #1467640

    MDG
    Participant

    “The Rebbe made a rule, known as “The Gzerah” forbidding anyone under 40 of consuming more than 4 Kelishkes, or a Reviis of mashke.”

    1) drinking 4 shots of vodka makes one legally drunk.

    2) A lot of bachurim don’t follow that

    3) having alcohol at most, if not all, events, and the alcohol is highly consumed translates to “alcohol culture”

    4) mashke does not mean alcohol. It means liquid. If your default liquid is alcohol, then you have a alcohol culture .

    #1467643

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Who decided to fog up the conversation with alcohol discussion? And what in the world is your point? In our communities we have bochurim arriving drunk to simcha, grown men stumbling out of shabbos morning kiddushes and teens collapsing unconscious from shalom zachor hopping. The thread wasn’t for naming every chabad thing that bothers you, it was an attempt to get answers to troubling practices and beliefs.

    #1467647

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It wasn’t a dig at all.

    You could have chosen better wording than that if it wasn’t a dig, but okay.

    I think a lot of these smaller issues that people bring up are really illustrations of a bigger problem, that avodas Hashem is overwhelmingly directed at (or through, if you prefer) the Rebbe, and he seems to be mentioned a lot more than the RBS’O.

    So let’s say it’s fine to say let’s bring nachas to the Rebbe. What about bringing nachas to the RBS’O? Let’s say it’s okay to talk about fulfilling the Rebbe’s ratzon (or whatever the precise lashon). Where’s the focus on fulfilling Hashem’s ratzon?

    All of the smaller issues people have, such as the use of pictures of the Rebbe in a way not seen anywhere else, the talking to the Rebbe, etc., perhaps can be explained away, each on its own, as acceptable. The overall picture, at least from an outsider’s perspective, emerges, however as a chassidus which has its focus on the Rebbe to to a obsessive, unhealthy, dangerous degree completely unparalleled in any other group, even other chassidim who ardently revere their Rebbes.

    #1468050

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    “again Im being misunderstood. I wrote that the Rebbe is human in the very line you quoted”

    Yet you beseech him “not as a human.” Just because I do not accept what you are writing does not mean that I misunderstand.

    “My emotions deep within me
    I can only turn to you”

    Rachmana litzlan

    #1468207

    5ish
    Participant

    I am only comparing them for the purpose of showing that just because something has characteristics which are similar to Avoda Zara does not make it Avoda Zara.

    #1468417

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    And if someone calls avoda zara by a different name it does not make it not avoda zara.

    #1467941

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @syag
    Thanks for eliminating the bashing.

    @DY
    Thanks for being honest. Now we can address the root of the issue. I came to this conclusion myself above.
    2 points :

    We don’t address Hashem and the Rebbe in the same way when it comes to Gashmius stuff.

    For example: I will ask Hashem, please send us money right now.

    If I was writing to the Rebbe I would write, id like to ask for a Brocha to have parnassa bharchava. Because the Rebbe is just clearing the way / asking Hashem for me.

    When it comes to Ruchnius though, there we would use the same or similar expressions because the Rebbe is our Rebbe ie teacher and guide in Avodas Hashem, and also cares for us like a parent and even more.

    We obsess over the Rebbe as you put it – as much as we give to the Rebbe, we can’t give back love and care add the Rebbe gave and gives. He obsesses over our welfare much much more.

    Another important point:

    This is why were able to reach places and do things no one else does. This is how a young couple can go to a place with no other frum yidden and not only survive spiritually, but turn other people into frum yidden or at least doing more mitzvos – because we’re batul and mekushar to the Rebbe.

    The job of a Rebbe is to make the natural emuna a yid has real and internalised. So if anything I think I have a much deeper connection to Hashem and He is much more real to me in my life, than if I didn’t have a Rebbe.

    Because otherwise I could not have a personal relationship with Him – Halo Elokecha eish ochla Hu?

    He is Unlimited, we are. Everything were about, all the human concerns we have He doesn’t.

    So how can we connect? Have a personal relationship?

    Hidabek btalmidei chachamim.

    When I see how much the Rebbe cares about my mundane concerns although he is light years away from that, I can see how Hashem cares. When I see how when I’m involved with Avodas Hashem how much nachas it gives the Rebbe, I realise that it must give Hashem so much more. Etc etc. Hashem is real to me. When I see how the Rebbe’s brachos come through, I realise even more how Hashem directs every detail.

    So if anything my connection to Hashem is so much more real because I have the Rebbe.

    #1468019

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    And our Rebbe lives on. He isn’t a dead man. first of all tzaddikim bimisosom kruim chayim and even when they leave this world, they continue to send down hashpoah and bracha to their mekusharim.

    That’s any tzadik. If I read rashi today, Rashi himself says the words with me

    That’s what sechel and his friends would say.

    I would say (im as mainstream as they get, and I grew up in a more anti home, and yes, I went to the kinus last year.) that the Rebbe lives on more than that as people continue to get brachos from the Rebbe pertaining to their gashmius as well as Ruchnius. Usually, once a tzadik has passed on, he loses his connection to the physicality of this world. That as well as other proofs (shmos Chof vov specifically) lead me to think by a Torah logic, that the Rebbe is alive, which is why I haven’t addressed the dead man claim.) so yeah either way it works.

    #1468750

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “Rachmana litzlan”

    Again one line out of context. You never had a feeling so deep you felt you could only share it with a very close friend? That doesn’t mean you don’t daven or turn to Hashem just cuz you tell a friend that you have a feeling you can only express to them

    #1468768

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Ok here’s one more mainstream song expressing these ideas. We would sing this in high school during our at the start of, Farbrengens

    Farbrengen is here
    The Rebbe is near
    A feeling of closeness fills the air
    United as one
    Like father and son
    Were bound to the teachings of Chassidus

    The Rebbe cares for every Jew
    Af al pi shechata Yisrael hu
    By being mekushar to the Rebbe were mekushar to Hashem
    Ki tzaddikim domim laBoram

    x2 just like the Kohen Gadol in the Kodesh Kodashim
    Our yechidus with the Rebbe brings us yiras Elokim
    Our hearts inspired to bring us higher
    Closer to the coming of moshiach

    The Rebbe cares for every Jew…

    #1468788

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ SH

    “I’m not sure what practice you’re referring to, I possibly missed a few posts, but I can tell that connecting to a Tzadik is a way of connecting to Hashem. As Rashi says:

    ולדבקה בו. אֶפְשָׁר לוֹמָר כֵּן? וַהֲלֹא אֵשׁ אוֹכְלָה הוּא? אֶלָּא הִדָּבֵק בְּתַלְמִידִים וּבַחֲכָמִים וּמַעֲלֶה אֲנִי עָלֶיךָ כְּאִלּוּ נִדְבַּקְתָּ בּוֹ”

    This is a perfect example actually. The word “davek” means to cling / attach to. So for example some things that are included would be
    -Becoming a talmid of a Talmud Chacham and serving him
    -Supporting the learning of a Talmud Chacham
    -Marrying off your daughter to a Talmud Chacham
    -Doing business with a Talmud Chacham
    -Partaking of a sudeh with a Talmud Chacham

    The above are all ways Chazal tell us to be m’kayem being “davuk” to a Talmud Chacham. No one is questioning those practices.

    #1468789

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    And just to show what I mean that of anything Hashem is more real to me, and I care more for His agenda because of the Rebbe, if you are interested, I can post a song I wrote in high school expressing a conversation between me and Hashem.

    #1468790

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    “It is an oxymoron to say the Rebbe is a Torah giant but his position here is kefira, because that would make the Rebbe and chassidim who follow him the opposite of ovdei Hashem, and you can’t then say that you respect the Rebbe as a Gaon etc.”

    This is just plain wrong. For example:

    In matters of Dayos
    There is a dayah in Chazal “Ain Moshiach L’Yisroel.” There are 2 ways this opinion is dealt with. 1) The Ran explains that it does not actually mean what it appears to be saying. 2) That it does mean what it appears to be saying and is the opinion of a Yachid which is rejected. Now, if someone today would like to understand this chazal kphuto and adapt this belief for themselves they would be kofrim in one of the yud gimmel ikkrim.

    In matters of Halach
    If someone today would follow the opinion that you can bmchalel Shabbos for Makshirai Milla such a person would be considered a mchallel Shabbos and we would not drink their wine.

    In both of the above cases the proponent of the subsequently rejected opinion wa a Tzadik and a Gaon.

    #1468780

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @cs,
    “The job of a Rebbe is to make the natural emuna a yid has real and internalised. So if anything I think I have a much deeper connection to Hashem and He is much more real to me in my life, than if I didn’t have a Rebbe.”
    Very well put.
    #V’atahTeztaveh.

    Btw, if anyone is interested in knowing more about these things, find the maamar V’atah Tetzavah, Purim Katan נ”ב.
    You can access it here: http://www.lahak.org/templates/lahak/article_cdo/aid/3049995
    (@mods, please allow through, I can’t upload images, and this isn’t copyright, it’s for public consumption)

    #1468916

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @non political
    OK but there are also plenty of times where a yachid reveals a chiddush which is a valid path in Avodas Hashem. Shivim panim laTorah.

    Also it seems to me, although I could be wrong, that there is a halachic “due process,” like by the gemara they hashed out their proofs for their opinions, and then voted on the final halacha.

    So, your example doesn’t seem to apply here because :

    A) Afaik there was only one gadol who came out against this chiddush as the opposite of Avodas Hashem cvs, while the others did not, even if they wouldn’t claim it as their own chiddush. So if anything, that one person would be the yochid here.

    B) did even that one gadol really hash it out with the Rebbe and follow “vshoalta vchakarta vdorashta heitev?” For obvious reasons we won’t discuss b, but you can respond on a.

    #1469066

    Eli Y
    Participant

    AvraminMD
    “Guess what? I don’t hate Chabad. I owe Chabad tremendous hakaras hatov, and have given sustained financial support. This thread has shaken me to the core.”

    I’ve been following this thread biting my tongue. I belong to a Chabad Shul and I can tell you that our great defender in this thread is far too arrogant to speak for most members or about Chabad philosophy. This level of arrogance is something that permeates the existence of many younger Chabad Shluchim and is troubling. She is obviously intelligent but her arguments should not be the basis of your perception. Everyone knows that one is forbidden to interact with spirits in the way she describes.

    #1469429

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This level of arrogance is something that permeates the existence of many younger Chabad Shluchim and is troubling.

    Do you think the troubling hashkafos are also common?

    #1469464

    laskern
    Participant

    It doesn’t matter what type of a chosid you are or if you are a chosid at all as long that you want to create nachas ruach to Hashem with your service. They are all different ways to arrive to the same thing. The importance is not the means but the end,

    #1469466

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Afaik there was only one gadol who came out against this chiddush as the opposite of Avodas Hashem cvs, while the others did not,”

    I’m not sure which dispute you are referring to. If you a referring to the Gra coming out against the Baal Hatanya, you’re wrong. As Sechel pointed out, he had many Chassidish opponents as well.

    If you are referring to the modern status of Chabad, then you’re even more wrong. You think only 1 gadol was opposed to Chabad Meshichism? To whom to you refer? Because it could truly be anyone because EVERYONE opposed Meshichism.

    #1469500

    Eli Y
    Participant

    DY
    “Do you think the troubling hashkafos are also common?”

    If you would please describe the ones that concern you I could give you my opinion. I would say that according to most folks I have known in Chabad, we agree that the Shulchan Aruch HaRav depicts the behaviors that we are to engage in and how to engage in them. Minhagim are also proscribed based upon the sages and cannot be developed independently.

    This said there is a signficant Kabbalistic etiology that informs Chabad Philosophy and one needs to be expert in this area to truly understand the significance of the proscribed behaviors. The ARIZAL seems to have the most influence in this area as an earlier poster suggested.

    No-one worships the Rebbe although many ask for his intervention via letters at the Ohel (including myself). I am not wise enough to know how this could work but the belief is that every action on earth has a corresponding effect in heaven.

    We love our Rebbe and most of us have at least a picture of him in our homes much like one would have of any beloved family patriarch. No-one davens to it nor would it ever be considered appropriate to do so. The idea of a picture of the Rebbe under a pillow at the Bris does not trouble most of us at all although no-one believes that this act in itself will somehow affect the life of the child. Most would view the behavior in the same way one may put a picture of a deceased grandfather in the same position.

    #1469517

    laskern
    Participant

    Reward and punishment is just measuring stick of how much nachas ruach we create.

    #1469613

    RSo
    Participant

    Eli Y: “The idea of a picture of the Rebbe under a pillow at the Bris does not trouble most of us at all although no-one believes that this act in itself will somehow affect the life of the child. Most would view the behavior in the same way one may put a picture of a deceased grandfather in the same position.”

    I have never heard of anyone putting a picture of a relative – alive or dead – under a child’s head at a bris. And I would have the exact same objection if they did.

    I believe that no one has answered my question as to where opening the igros at random originated and who said that it has any meaning at all. It certainly wasn’t the lubavitcher rebbe, so who had the authority to say that the following the answers/instructions one allegedly receives is correct according to Torah.

    And please don’t compare this with stories of tzaddikim who recommended that questions be placed in seforim of earlier tzaddikim. I’ve heard all this before, and there is no comparison. In those cases there was no “reply” received from the page opened at random, and it was done as bringing the letter to a source of kedushah.

    There is of course the famous Goral Hagra, but that was instituted by the Gra himself, not by someone who missed him greatly.

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