November 8, 2015 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #616628
I never understood why there are such barriers between the charedi and dati-leumi communities in eretz yisroel. OK Much of the dati Leumi would be considered modern orthodox and have a different approach in many areas however the other chunk of dati-leumi, often labelled as “chardalim” who are the same in their approach to halacha, chinuch, tznius and other issues still find themselves seperate from the yeshivish/chasidish groups.
The only difference between them is hashkafah.
Litvish and chasidish, Who are very different to each other in hashkafah, are very close together when compared to the connection between dati – leumi and everyone else. Why is that?
The litvish listen to their rabbanim, chassidish, to their rabbanim and dati- leumi, to their rabbanim and can still all share similarities (being religious in a secular country. kashrus, torah, shemiras shabbos etc)November 8, 2015 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1111993
The hashfafic separation between “chareidim” and DL/MO is far more vast than the hashkafic separation between the Litvish and the Chasidim. Whereas the Litvish and Chasidim have fully accepted each other as eilu v’eilu, neither of them have accepted the DL or MO hashkafas as eilu v’eilu.
You can search the threads here for fierce discussions why the above point is the case, but the reality is that it is the case. Not every shitta is accepted as an eilu v’eilu. And the chareidi world doesn’t accept their view (mostly on zionism and gender issues) as acceptable under the Torah.November 8, 2015 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #1111994
“the chareidi world doesn’t accept their view (mostly on zionism and gender issues) as acceptable under the Torah”
Universal kollel and total rejection of secular education are highly problematic from a Torah perspective.November 9, 2015 12:51 am at 12:51 am #1111995
One holds that the establishment of the State of Israel is required by halacha and is the beginning of the Geula, and it is a mitzva to support the Medinah, and that the future of the Jewish people is tied up with the survival of the Medinah.
The other holds that the establishment of the State of Israel was not only prohibited by Torah, but is also a dumb idea, and that the zionists are similar to Shabbatai Zvi and the Frankists, and no good end will come of this, and the survival of the Jewish people will be in spite of the Medinah.
Other than that, they get along fine. They read each others sefarim. They often work together on non-political matters. Many people with hareidi views are quite modern, and many of the religious zionists are quite frum. The leading rabbanim of both camps are cousins.And most baal ha-battim are somewhere in the middle.November 9, 2015 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1111996
Joseph- First of all, DL and MO are two different things. The gender issues is more of a dispute between Chareidi and MO than Charedi and DL.
With regard to Zionism, I guess that’s Rabbi Crawley’s question. The issue of Zionism is regarding a few lines of Aggadeta at the end of Sanhedrin that’s not brought down lehalacha by the Rosh, Rif, Rambam, or Shulchan Aruch. Why doesn’t eilu va’eilu apply to how we understand the 3 shevuos? It seems like such a small detail to create such a large rift.November 9, 2015 1:42 am at 1:42 am #1111997
akuperma: I don’t think that’s so true. Chareidim, other than the biggest Talmidei Chachamim, never really look at Seforim written by D”L Rabbonim.
To answer the original question, no one fights like brothers. The closer two things are, the wider rifts even small differences create.November 9, 2015 1:56 am at 1:56 am #1111998
Sam, that doesn’t explain the observation that the rift between chareidim and DL is wider than that which exists between chassidim and litvaks.November 9, 2015 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1111999
DY- I guess you could say no one fights like brothers but eventually they come together. The rift between Chassdim and Litvaks used to be much larger, because they too are brothers. But brothers come back together even if the differences still exist. IyH that will happen soon between DL and Chareidi as well.November 9, 2015 2:09 am at 2:09 am #1112000
rav ovadia yosel z,l held very highly of the dati leumi, and at the same time he was supported my most rebbes and litvish gedolim.November 9, 2015 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1112001
Charedim are more extreme in Israel than in America. The vast majority of charedim in America get some secular studies in school and go on to work full time at some point, while the vast majority of charedim in Israel get no secular education.November 9, 2015 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1112002
In regard to the charedi-chardal split, they disagree on very important points. Chardal people serve in the army, learn in hesder yeshivas, pursue work, strongly promote living in settlements, follow the messianic zionist views of Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah Kook, etc. Most chareidim do none of these things, and think a lot of them are stupid, or even heretical. I hope that explains the friction.
Edited for respect to Rabbonim.November 9, 2015 2:29 am at 2:29 am #1112003
Simch613, I think the rift between Chassidim and Litvaks got smaller for two reasons: one, the difference became smaller, and two, the Litvaks appreciated that Chassidim survived and thrived and remained extremely devoted and frum.
I certainly hope the rift between Chareidim and DL similarly shrinks.
I agree with yytz that in chu”l it’s not nearly as rancorous as in E.Y. I think the reasons are not only because Chareidim in E.Y. are more extreme, but also because the Zionism issue is so much more relevant there, as is the military issue. All three of these are related.November 9, 2015 3:25 am at 3:25 am #1112004
” the Litvaks appreciated that Chassidim survived and thrived and remained extremely devoted and frum.”
Eventually we will see that with “Open Orthodox”.November 9, 2015 3:27 am at 3:27 am #1112005
“that the establishment of the State of Israel is required by halacha and is the beginning of the Geula”
I don’t hold either of those positions.
“the establishment of the State of Israel was not only prohibited by Torah, but is also a dumb idea, and that the zionists are similar to Shabbatai Zvi and the Frankists, and no good end will come of this”
I don’t hold these, either.November 9, 2015 3:41 am at 3:41 am #1112006
It has to do with the different histories of the charedi communities in the two countries. In America no one thought orthodox, much less charedim, stood a chance, due to materialism and everyone feeling like they had to work on Shabbos to survive. Only slowly did they gain a foothold and become dominant.
It was different in Israel because they old Yishuv of charedim came to Israel fully expecting to life a no-compromise impoverished life of Torah study alone. They may have even been escaping decrees in Europe forcing ill-intentioned secular studies on Jews. And then the same thing happened in Israel, people trying to force secular studies on them. So there was a big resistance. Here in North America secular studies was just pragmatic and was not seen as a big deal.
In addition, since the overall number of Jews is smaller in the US it’s harder to split into hard-and-fast camps. It’s common here (especially out of town) to daven in a shul with a mix of MO and Yeshivish, or some other MO/charedi mixture. It’s like a continuum in which a lot of people don’t even know if they’re MO or charedi or something in between (and they might label themselves differently than others do). It’s less likely that in Israel, where it’s easier to live in a neighborhood of like-minded people.
That said, there are more and more moderate charedim in Israel. But for geographic and historical and cultural (not to mention demographic) reasons the “extreme” charedi groups are also very prominent and growing.November 9, 2015 4:05 am at 4:05 am #1112007
Orthodox only survived in the USA due to 2 main reasons, one was the 5 day work week making it alot easier not to work on SHabbos (Most people evantually succombed to working on Shabbos when they were constantly fired, people gotta eat and pay the rent)
And in the 60’s when African americans got civil rights, other groups got iot too and it became ok to demand rights too and it became OK to demand religous freedomNovember 9, 2015 4:27 am at 4:27 am #1112008
Eventually we will see that with “Open Orthodox”.
You think they’ll eventually become frum? I hope so.November 9, 2015 5:04 am at 5:04 am #1112009
charlie: To quote several major Rabbonim, in two to three generations they won’t be following any Halachah at all. If that turns out not to be true, they’ll probably be more or less accepted-but-not-really-spoken-about in the rest of the Frum world. (Kinda like the average “Modern Orthodox” person’s relationship with the super-right-wing Yeshivish world. For all people like Joseph and others talk about how YU and MO is treif and whatnot, Yeshivish people still trust their Kashrus and count them for a minyan and stuff.) I don’t expect them to stay Frum, much like the conservative movement went. If they prove it’s possible, though, then maybe they will need to be accepted. (This is all assuming that things like academic Bible and Talmud like most OO are more into don’t lead to there being wholesale denial of Ikkarei Emunah. If that happens, it doesn’t matter how many Halachos they keep or how well they do them.)
DY: What do you think of the paragraph I just wrote?November 9, 2015 6:40 am at 6:40 am #1112010
To quote several major Rabbonim . . .
Which Rabbonim? Can you give us names?
Did you ever stop to think these major Rabbonim might be wrong?November 9, 2015 6:42 am at 6:42 am #1112011
In Israel it is almost never happens that there are shidduchim betwen different groups and even sub-groups (e.g Ashkenazi and Sepharadi Chareidim, Lithuanian and Chassidic, etc.). I think that his is simply because there is such a wide choice that people can be more choosy.
In the political arena there are some tentative moves to unite the Chareidi and Chardal camps. The social and economic differences are also lessening as more Chareidi men are going into the IDF (albeit in Chareidi frameworks) and into the general job market (usually but not always in Chareidi frameworks). I heard from Rav Yeshayahu Steinberger in the names of both Rav Kook and Rav Soloveichik that this is the union of Yosef’s stick and Yehuda’s stick (Yechezkel 37:19). Yosef represents involvement in the general society (Mizrahi) and Yehuda, who established the settlement in Goshen, represents the establishment of a state within a state (Aguda).November 9, 2015 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1112012
Rabbi of Crawley:
I surmise that none (or almost none) of the above commenters live in Israel.I do.
The answer to the question is two words.
Army service.November 9, 2015 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1112013
Your post seems real close to heresy, if it’s not already there.
“A few lines of aggadita” is Torah MiSinai. The Satmar Rav wrote sefarim expounding and explaining those few lines. Denying even one word of the Torah is not a good thing…
Your post is also anyways incorrect.
For starters, the Rambam did bring it down in his Iggeres Teiman.
Even the “Religious Zionists” concur that those few lines are true and practical halacha. But they fool themselves with laughable and nonsensical “proofs” that the oaths are not any more in force. But they agree that they are halacha, not fairy tales, which seems to be your take on Aggadita.November 9, 2015 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #1112014
Regarding the OP:
The Religious Zionists have staked their future and indeed their faith with the Zionists. They have created a new nationalist religion called “Religious Zionism” that happens to contain many Torah-based practices in addition to Nationalism/Zionism and many severe distortions of the Torah, CH”V.
There is also the minor matter that the “Religious Zionists” have acted against the Torah and Klal Yisrael going back to, for example, Yaldei Tehran, pre-1948. The Brisker Rav lived in E”Y both before and after the Zionists formalized their invasion of E”Y with the creation of their idolatrous State. The Brisker Rav wrote regarding the “DL” education system that they preach a drop of Torah mixed in to a sea of heresy.
Viewed in this light, it is understandable why the traditional orthodox population in E”Y is not exactly thrilled with “D”L.
This cannot be remotely compared to Chassidim and Litvaks and also cannot be compared to Traditional Orthodox and “MO” in the USA.
Regarding the latter, Rav Shimon Schwab, years ago, implored MO to abandon their “stagnation” and “foolishness bordering on heresy” and return to the true path of the Torah. B”H, it seems that, at least in part, this is happening. Countless former YU students go on to study in Traditional Orthodox yeshivos both in Eretz Yisrael and in America, etc. B”H.November 9, 2015 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1112015
HaKatan, kol haposel b’mumo posel. Aggadata is not Halacha. In fact, Rambam (Intro/ to Perek Chelek) says that it is all metaphoric. Even regarding halachic statements, not everything is paskened.
1. The Three Oaths (@Simcha, actually they are at the end of Ketubot)are not mentioned in any of the halachic codes.
2. Rav Chaim Vital says (Intro. to Sefer Etz Chaim) that they were only for 1,000 years.
3. Rav Meir Simcha says that since the San Remo Conference establishing a Jewish state in EY is not rebellion.
4. The goyim violated their part of the bargain not to persecute us “too much” on several occasions (the Crusades, Gezerot Tach v’Tat, the pogroms, the Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off.
5. Rav Soloveichik says (Kol Dodi Dofek) that Hashem has called.
We do not concede that they have ever been practical halacha. we merely ad that even if they were they are no longer in force.November 9, 2015 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1112016
Eventually we will see that with “Open Orthodox”.
You think they’ll eventually become frum? I hope so.
Just like the Chassidim, whose original Derech was not acceptable (your term “frum”) which has now morphed (BH) into a derech with Yidden who learn and are Oved Hashem. So yes, like Chassidim.
🙂November 9, 2015 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1112017
The Satmar Rav wrote sefarim expounding and explaining those few lines.
HaRayah that it has turned into Avoda Zara 🙂
P.S. Completely agree with “old man”. There is a clear dividing line, and you are “either with us or against us”.November 9, 2015 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1112018
If we didn’t pigeonhole the Jewish people into little boxes and constantly negatively highlight how people are different, maybe we’d have peace between these two “factions”. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m just Jewish. That’s enough categorizing for me.November 9, 2015 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1112019
the dati leumi are against SECULAR zionist state, the charedim are agianst state. period.November 9, 2015 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1112020
I don’t know why this point hasn’t been brought out, but in most incidences when the Zionist try to institute decrees (they call them laws) that are in opposition to our (Chareidi) Torah values the DL tend to side with them instead of us. That kind of makes it difficult for us to live in harmony with them.
The Litvish and Chassidim at times disagree with how to deal with the Zionist, but regardless we sit on the same side of the fence.November 9, 2015 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1112021
Rabbi, that is not accurate. We are against the state having a fundamentally secular character but we are patient and support the state even though there is a great need for improvement. Phil Chernofsky of the OU Israel Center likened it to someone who is released from the hospital but needs further treatments. He thanks Hashem for what he has received so far and davens and works for the future.November 9, 2015 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1112022
Rabbi of Crawley-I rarely comment here anymore as it truly fruitless but you last comment impelled me to write. Where do you get that idea that “the chareidim are against the state.Period”. Last time I looked ,there are a number of chareidim in the Knesset and one of them serves as Minister. There are many “chareidim” who have served in the Army and virtually all chareidim benefit from some government program. Where do you have ANY evidence that “chareidim are against the state”??November 9, 2015 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1112023
All wrong. See the old threads.
#4 is particularly silly and #5 is obviously no raayah to anything.November 9, 2015 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1112025
You could be for the state or against the state – that argument was for before 1948. As a matter of practicality the state exists today and if it didn’t just imagine what would happen to the 6 million or so who live al admas hakodesh. Just look at the bloodthirsty ISIS or Iranians etc for an answer. Today its a matter of pikuach nefesh. And as an aside if we accept that everything that happens, happens because Hashem wants it to – therefore we accept such things as the crusades, spanish inquisition and the holocaust as the ratzon Hashem, so how come we cant accept 1948 as the ratzon Hashem?November 9, 2015 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1112026
the dati leumi are willing to die for the Zionist entity while the chareidim are willing to die to stop this invention called Zionism.November 9, 2015 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1112027
HaKatan: “#4 is particularly silly”. Why? It makes absolute sense and the gemoro agrees. “Shevuos’ are not one -sided. Just because your side feverishly looks for a reason to condemn the “heretics’ doesn’t make it correct or even plausible.November 9, 2015 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #1112028
DY: What do you think of the paragraph I just wrote?
Did you see Yitzchak Adlerstein’s latest piece, entitled, “There Is No Continuity Without Authenticity”?
Let’s just say that I agree with the title, if not all of the article.November 9, 2015 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1112029
HaKatan: Really? Because I think a Gemara in Sotah says the same thing as #4.
DY: I hear that. Then again, it works both ways. If, Lema’aseh, there is continuity 50 years from now (which I am highly doubting), that lends an air of authenticity to it.November 10, 2015 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1112030
How do we define continuity, though? Technically, reform and conservative still exist, although we certainly don’t have them in our tent. OO does, though, so what if the next version of reform/ conservative/OO comes along in 50 years and recognizes OO?November 10, 2015 1:38 am at 1:38 am #1112031
The problem with Hakatan, and many anti-Zionists in general is exactly Rabbi of Crawley’s point… they can never admit to eilu va’eilu on this issue for some reason. Not only do they argue with the DL’s interpertation of the 3 shevuos, but it’s silly and worthless. Any DL gadol who subscribes to that and argues with a Charedi gadol is not a gadol, is hardly even a rabbi. Any legitimate gadol of the past who said things that may support religious zionism didn’t really say it or didn’t mean what the DL community thinks he meant. And they take it even further… anything good that the medinah has done, like increased Torah and yishuv EY, they say it was in spite of the medinah. The Arabs hate us because of the medinah. The medinah causes assimilation. The medinah causes intermarriage. The medinah has caused the death of thousands of Jews. 1967 was not a miracle, but a strong nation beating up on weaker ones. To the anti-Zionist, on this issue there is no eilu va’eilu. It’s all black and white. The medinah is the epitome of evil, of Godlessness. It’s not enough to argue against Zionism, but it must be delegitimized.November 10, 2015 4:26 am at 4:26 am #1112033
“To quote several major Rabbonim, in two to three generations they won’t be following any Halachah at all.”
They are Neviim? I guess they have repealed Yeridot HaDorot.
And people complain about Open Orthodoxy???November 10, 2015 4:28 am at 4:28 am #1112034
“academic Bible and Talmud like most OO are more into “
YU teaches academic Bible and Talmud. Yeshivat Chovevei Torah does not.
I have never studied either.November 10, 2015 4:31 am at 4:31 am #1112035
“You could be for the state or against the state – that argument was for before 1948. As a matter of practicality the state exists today “
One could be for or against gravity. But if you jump off a tall building, your opinion regarding gravity is irrelevant. Similarly, should the anti-Zionists here manage to succeed in abolishing the Medinah there will be another Shoah. Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.November 10, 2015 4:38 am at 4:38 am #1112036
charlie: One does not need to be a Navi to see a very likely outcome.
RIETS is unhappy at some of what goes on in those YC classes. And everyone in YU stays away from “higher criticism”. I would venture a guess that a Rov of YCT students have at least dabbled in it.November 10, 2015 5:08 am at 5:08 am #1112037
They are Neviim?
As Sam says, it would just be history repeating itself.
And people complain about Open Orthodoxy???
Yes!!!November 10, 2015 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1112038
Forget about hashkafas, these are excuses. The average person does not think about hashkafas in his daily life. A devout Jew puts on tefillin every morning and does not think about whether he believes in the State of Israel. I grew up MO, and still consider myself attached to that world. However, there is no question that I do not feel a connection for one reason – they are not interested in adherence to mitzvoth. I visit my brother I cannot go to his shul – you can see the women dancing on the other side of the mechitza (without having to look to hard), they are given the sefer Torah to walk around with while wearing miniskirts and not too much more on their upper half. How many make brachos when they eat, etc.
I came to Israel expecting DL to be Mercaz Harav where they are strict in adherence to mitzvoth but happen to dress differently and feel differently about the State (even though I find the argument irrelevant today). To my chagrin, Mercaz and co. is a small number – the average DL woman has half her hair uncovered, slits in the skirts, etc. How many homes have TV’s and unfiltered internet. Even the chareidim who do, they know that they should not be doing so, with DL they see nothing wrong with it.
The level of spirituality to me was a great disappointment. By and large DL in Israel is more or less MO in USA. One who wishes to lead a life of Torah and Yirat Shamayim, whether he likes it or not, must throw in the towel and join the Chareidi world. I myself still dress not so Yeshivish but my boys have gone to Chareidi Yeshivos, my girls to Seminary in Jerusalem, and I am extremely proud.
The hashkafa excuse is a big bluff and in my neighborhood there are “serious” kippa sruga people who are treated with respect, given aliyos, invited to simchas and feel very much a part of the community. The issue of the state is irrelevant and once a year they may go daven Shacharis somewhere else – big deal. The rest of the time they join regular Chareidi shuls.November 10, 2015 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1112039
there is no need to worry, within 20 years Israel will be majority Hareidi or Arab and the seculars are all dying out/moving away so due to demographics the medina is kaput and with it Zionism.November 10, 2015 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1112040
Rwndk1, I do not know where you live or how you define DL. In my yishuv community there is a variation but the extremes are not numerous and the left extreme are virtually all young people who have one foot into the Chiloni world (unlike the Chareidi community, which pushes kids away with both hands for much more minor deviations the DL community tries to keep them in as much as possible so that they will not wind up like Gehazi and Yushki – see Sanhedrin 107b decensored edition). The vast majority of the women cover their hair, wear long sleeves (or at least to the elbow – which the Mishna Berura allows) and long skirts (actually I heard that in Mea Shearim they banned skirts to the ground as a “Mizruchnik” custom). Some have TV but my impression is that most do not, or if they do only in the parents’ room). I do not know about Internet but it could be that those who do not general filters (as opposed to specific filters such as Adblock) were frustrated with their overkill (I have had sites blocked because of normal words that have groups of letters that also form “flag” words).
The fact of the matter is that there is no one DL hashkafa or lifestyle. There are many, each with its own nuances (Merkaz, Har HaMor, Bar-Ilan, kibbutzim, moshavim, etc.).
As for the Chareidi yeshivot and seminaries to which you send your children, they are getting the disadvantages of no secular education, an anti-work hashkafa and ingratitude towards the state that subsidizes them. So don’t judge peopel just because they sin differently than you.November 10, 2015 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1112041
rwndk1: methinks that there one sefer you have not learned yet. Try “Shemiras Haloshon” and you won’t spew so much hatred and loshon horah.November 10, 2015 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1112042
rwndk1 made a number of factual observations based on first-hand experience. What could you possibly find objectionable to his relating his experience growing up MO?November 10, 2015 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1112043
Joseph- factual observations based on first-hand experience is not necessarily accurate or representative of the community at large. And factual observations based on first-hand experience is not an excuse to say loshon hara.
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