November 10, 2015 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1112044HaKatanParticipant
simcha613 and others:
There simply is no eilu viEilu here, unfortunately.
The problem, is, however, with “Zionists”, including “Religious Zionists” who have no mesorah for their idolatry and heresy.
Going back to the oaths (on which the Satmar Rav wrote an entire sefer), #4 is silly because are for our protection in galus. The Rambam, who the “MO” hold of, warned the Yemenite Jews in Iggeres Teiman to not rebel against their gentile oppressors BECAUSE OF the oaths EVEN THOUGH the gentiles were severely oppressing them.
That’s psak, not the fairy tales in which some here, R”L, make out the gemara in Kesubos to be. Your questions about why they don’t appear here or there are valid from an academic perspective. But they are indisputably halacha, as “RZ” take great pains – futilely, of course – to wish away their current applicability.
Zionism is heresy and idolatry and the Zionists have no mesorah and no answers for their foolishness.November 10, 2015 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1112045
Hakatan- My point exactly.November 10, 2015 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1112046Sam2Participant
HaKatan: Please, don’t misrepresent the Rambam. What was the whole context of Iggeret Teiman, again?November 10, 2015 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1112047
1.Our mesorah goes back to Yehoshua bin Nun through the Gra, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer, the Netziv and Rav Kook.
2. #4 is a halacha (Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 236:6).
3. Rambam does not pasken it in Mishna Tora so apparently he ither changed his mind or what he said to the Jews of Yemen was only an asmachta b’alma.
4. They are not pesak. They are aggadata and not halacha.
5. Anti-Zionism is heresy and denial.November 10, 2015 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1112048
just an example, when asked how many frum people he works with, the charedi mk or councilman would reply, based on number of chareidim only.November 10, 2015 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1112049
Also, i noticed that by chillul shabbos demonstrations or letters such as the one in ashdod, only the chareidi rabbanim and people get involved, no trace of dati leumi. Perhaps they want to stay on good terms with hilonim and believe that chillul shabbos in e’y cannot be resolvedNovember 10, 2015 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1112050karlbenmarxParticipant
avi k: The medina subsidizes the Arabs do you see them becoming Zionists and singing that lofty song hatikva? the medina should be happy that there are Jews creating more Jews, which is what the chareidim are doing unlike the chilonim who are “finding themselves” amongst avodah zara in India or carrying out with Arabs. As you can see with all these attacks and rockets it is NOT the IDF that protects Yidden it is the ONE ABOVE that does, plus lately all the IDF has been doing is kicking Jews out of their homes and destroying shuls all bec. of missing paperwork but Arabs they bend over backwards. The fact is Zionism is going the same way of Communism, where a tiny fringe percentage support it but overall its dead.November 10, 2015 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1112051
Karl- Are you saying that since the Arabs don’t have hakaras hatov to the medinah for subsidizing them, then the Charedim don’t have to either?November 10, 2015 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1112052
The Chareidim’s Limud Torah is the greatest form possible of hakaras hatov, as it protects the entire Eretz Yisroel. The more Torah, the more protection. Every additional minute of Torah counts. Have the non full-time Torah learners expressed their deep hakaros hatov to the full-time learners?November 10, 2015 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1112053
Joseph- hakaras hatov and limud Torah are not synonymous. Does that mean a person who has his nose in a Gemara doesn’t need to express hakaras hatov to anyone?
And just because secular Jews or Jews who are less holy because they don’t learn Torah all day don’t express proper hakaras hatov, that means Charedim don’t have to express hakaras hatov?November 10, 2015 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1112054
Joseph- And while I do believe those who learn Torah contribute more to the protection of EY then the army does, that doesn’t mean they are owed more hakaras hatov for the simple reason that they risk far less to learn that Torah. Their lives aren’t at risk in the same way that a soldier’s is on the front lines even if their contribution is greater. So yes, they each owe each other hakaras hatov, but a Charedi arguably owes a soldier more hakaras hatov, and just because a soldier fails to show hakaras hatov, it doesn’t mean that a Charedi is exempt from it either.
The same is true for money from the government. Just like kollelim show hakaras hatov to those who donate large sums of money and don’t rely on “well, our limud Torah is the greatest hakaras hatov to our benefactors so therefore we don’t owe them any additional hakaras hatov”, Charedim should show that same amount of hakaras hatov to the medinah who gives them a tremendous amount of money. And if a benefactor gave a lot of money to a mesivta and didn’t express hakaras hatov to the mesivta for learning Torah, that doesn’t exempt the mesivta for expressing hakaras hatov to the benefactor who gave them money.November 10, 2015 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1112055mw13Participant
Also, i noticed that by chillul shabbos demonstrations or letters such as the one in ashdod, only the chareidi rabbanim and people get involved, no trace of dati leumi. Perhaps they want to stay on good terms with hilonim and believe that chillul shabbos in e’y cannot be resolved
While it is indeed rare for DL Rabbonim to join such efforts, it does happen:
Jerusalem Chief Rabbi Aryeh Stern Shlita on erev Shabbos parshas Vayeira visited Machane Yehuda to remind store owners to close on time to avoid chilul Shabbos since Shabbos begins earlier during the months of standard time. The rabbi joined the Eida Chareidis activists who visit the shuk weekly and encourage stores to close in time for Shabbos.
Rabbi Stern was asked by dozens of shuk merchants for a bracha and he happily accommodated their requests. The rav also gave his bracha to the Eida Chareidis activists who are out in the shuk every erev Shabbos.
– See more at: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/356119/photos-jerusalem-chief-rabbi-stern-reminds-machane-yehuda-vendors-that-shabbos-is-approaching.html#sthash.O7CvKlp0.dpuf
Jerusalem Chief Rabbis Rabbi Aryeh Stern Shlita and Rabbo Shlomo Moshe Amar Shlita have come out calling on Jerusalemites to increase shmiras shabbos. The rabbonim released a letter to the general public calling for shmiras shabbos in shopping centers and entertainment centers.
Rabbi Amar explains the bracha that one receives by keeping Shabbos and during these days of teshuva and rachamim, keeping Shabbos is especially relevant.
The letter comes at a time chareidi parties in the Jerusalem Council are expressing growing concern over growing chilul Shabbos in the city. Just last week the new Yes Planet entertainment center opened its doors on Shabbos, joining the growing number of entertainment establishments operating on the holy day.
Perhaps this can serve as a reminder of what we can accomplish if we work together on issues that we do agree about.November 10, 2015 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1112056rwndk1Member
Firstly, I apologize if I offended anyone, I was speaking out of my own frustration and disappointment. I went to MO elementary, one year in a hesder Yeshiva, etc. and loved it, and came here expecting much more as a whole. Obviously each person is judged on his own merit but given the polarization in Israeli society a choice needs to be made and I find the Chareidi society as a whole a much safer environment for raising children committed to Torah and Yiras Shamayim, and who thank G-d are not negatively influenced by technology and other marin bishin of today’s times.
One point – I am sorry to burst certain people’s bubble but my girls are getting a far better secular education in a chareidi seminary, than I got and far better than my nephews and nieces in MO USA. When they get together and discuss history, geography, math, science, etc. there is no comparison. I believe it is not because my kids are smarter but that it is clear that one cannot learn with a cellphone in class, with internet in their room, and with learning being not the highest priority. As for my boys, while their secular education is not formal their love for learning that the Yeshiva has produced gives them the desire to read and they too know far more than their cousins who have had formal secular education. I am proud to say not only do they know far more than I knew at their age, they know far more than I do now with my advanced degrees.
The answer is that the classroom has to be one of respect for the teacher, love for learning, and this gives a person desire to learn on his own, and most importantly one must keep away from negative influences. With all the negatives of chareidi society and I admit there are many, in this area you can’t begin to compare.
As for working – almost anybody over a certain age is doing something to make a living – you cannot live on kitzbat yeladim, child allowances. Most people by, let’s say age 35, are no longer learning full time and fully realize the obligation to support their family and marry off the children. It is a myth and motzi shem ra to say that no one is working. The fact that they are not spending a full day in hi-tech does not mean they are not earning a living. Go into almost any chareidi neighborhood – while they may not spend Pesach in 5-star hotels, they are by and large not starving by any means. The children are well-dressed and there is food on the table and almost all own their own apartments.
Try it, you might like it. I have been in both worlds and while a part of me feels an affinity to MO, I am not so Yeshivish by nature and there many social norms that bother me, but bottom line is you can’t throw out the baby with the bathwater and what do want but for our kids to be serious about Torah and mitzvoth – whether or not they believe in the State to me has no bearing on life in general.November 11, 2015 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1112057
and almost all own their own apartments.
Nisht Rayah, as apartments are bought by the Kallah’s side in order to get married.November 11, 2015 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1112058
You needa brush up on your Yiddish, gavra; you sound like a non-yiddish immigrant. 🙂 Besides, dowries have been a hallmark of Jewish shidduchim from time immemorial. What difference is it which side obtained the apartment; if it is procured, vaist ois they are living decently.November 11, 2015 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1112061zahavasdadParticipant
Also, i noticed that by chillul shabbos demonstrations or letters such as the one in ashdod, only the chareidi rabbanim and people get involved, no trace of dati leumi. Perhaps they want to stay on good terms with hilonim and believe that chillul shabbos in e’y cannot be resolved
The reason they dont get involved in such things is not only do they not work, they frequently backfire.
The was recently a protest against a movie theater opening on Friday night in Jerusalem, not only did the protest not shut down the theater, more people attended , just to spite the charedi protests. More Chilul Shabbos occured because of a protest against itNovember 11, 2015 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1112063MammeleParticipant
Gavra: I think 50/50 with a mortgage for the couple is more like it. At least in the Chasidishe velt girls do not need to “buy” a choson. I’m sure there are exceptions, but it’s not the norm.
In fact, at least in the US, Chasidishe girls have an easier time finding a shidduch and can save some money if working to help cover wedding expenses.November 11, 2015 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1112064
Joseph – Just saying that a married couple having an apartment in Israel is more likely due to the fundraising capabilities of the girl’s father than the couple’s ability to afford it.
I’ll try to lay off the Yiddish.November 11, 2015 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1112065
gavra, rwndk1 says almost all own apartments. Almost all didn’t afford the apartment via fundraising. But even the minority apartment owners that purchased it via fundraising, so what? Helping out your Jewish brother financially is also a hallmark of Jewish life and tzedaka for thousands of years. My point is that fundraising isn’t a negative. Especially as B”H the community is successful in the fundraising if the evidence is that almost all own apartments.November 11, 2015 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1112066charliehallParticipant
“and with it Zionism.”
And if Zionism goes so go the lives of six million Jews. The IDF is the only thing preventing a second Shoah. Charedim who refuse to serve in the IDF forget that their relatives were hauled off the the gas chambers right along with the Maskilim. Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic State won’t distinguish religious from non-religious.November 11, 2015 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1112067
Joseph – rwndk1 is bringing in owning apartments as proof that there is sufficient income in the Charaidi world for their needs WITHOUT resorting to charity (which, of course, moving to Israel with the intent to rely on others’ charity would be sinful).
I’m not sure how your point, however true (or not), is relevant.November 11, 2015 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1112068
Mammele – Chassidim are a completely different world. Chassidim also have no push to remain in Kollel indefinitely, as well as a strong financial support system from their specific Chassidus, as well as their parents (and working father). That certainly helps the young couple make it financially.
Juxtapose that system with that of the Israeli Charaidi, where until after army age it is difficult for the husband to work, and all jobs for women in a Charaidi environment are low paying (oversupply). If there were to be a mortgage, many of those couples would lose their homes.
Compare that system to the Lakewood system, where the boy demands multiple years of luxurious support from the girl’s parents as a condition to even consider her for a date! My understanding (from multiple sources) is that the girl working is considered to be insufficient, as the father must be the one who promises tens (and in many cases hundreds) of thousands of dollars for support of the boy.
As a Litvak, I’ll readily admit these are two ways that the Chassidim have it right.November 11, 2015 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1112069
To all those pointing to the “three oaths”: See gemoro Sottah 10A, top of the daf, which fully supports Avi K in what he wrote that, when one side does not respect the “shevuoh”, the “shevuoh-oath” is cancelled. Sam2 also pointed to it and I have just shown the source of this. Gemoro and rashi concur.
So, as the nations of the world have dealt with us in the most terrible way, the “sholosh shevuos”- even if accepted- are cancelled and should not be quoted as opposing the establishment of medinas yisroel.November 11, 2015 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1112070
ROB- you’re making pointless arguments. As you have seen many, many times, not only does the Anti-Zionist Charedi have a different understanding of the 3 shevuos (which is completely legitimate), they will never admit that there are other ways of understanding that Gemara. To do so would shake the very foundation of their belief that Zionism is pure apikorsus and no amount of combination of religion with Zionism can make it a legitimate form of Yiddishkeit.November 11, 2015 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1112071
simcha613: Whereas I agree with you that the extremists will keep their blinkers on and nothing will change their mind,the great majority of middle-of-the road chareidim have rejected the interpretation championed by the extremists. The Israeli chareidi world votes in the elections, accepts numerous benefits and , very cautiously, is approaching army service in a new vein. This mya not be full-throated Zionism ,but acceptance of the medinah nonetheless. I call this crypto-zionism, hidden zionism.
My purpose in quoting the gemoro in sottah was to disprove even those who may think that the “sholosh shevuos’ continues in force.November 11, 2015 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1112072
MIR HAS EVEREYONE – CHASSIDIM, LITVAKS, YEKKES, EVEN SEFARDIM AND YEMENITES, BUT NO…. NO DATI LEUMI!!!
Can you please stop screaming!November 11, 2015 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1112073
The ones who are in yeshiva are in hesder, no?November 11, 2015 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1112074
Is there a similar reaction from the DL?November 11, 2015 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1112075
DaasYochid: Why should there be such a reaction? The dati leumi crowd continues to build eretz ysroel, expand yeshivot, serve in the army and go about their way building families that are faithful to their philosophy. They have no fear of any foreign import, which is what Reform is, and just shrug their shoulders as they continue the building of our ancestral home.November 11, 2015 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1112076
frum jews have a chiyuv to protect jews from apikorsikal and non-kosher influences (la’afrushay m’isura) sort of. The dati leumi semm to feel that it is wrong to rebuke the wrongNovember 11, 2015 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1112077
DaasYochid – First you have to explain why recognition by the state (which after all, is not religious) should cause such a reaction from the Charaidim (and not Neturei Karta, for example).
Perhaps in another thread?November 11, 2015 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1112078
Rabbi of crawley- in my humble opinion, they don’t feel it’s wrong, rather they probably feel it’s ineffective and counter productive as sometimes protests strengthen the resolve of the opposition. I would imagine Charedim Rabbonim would agree with that assessment, but they would argue that they aren’t arguing for the result, but rather they are arguing simply to show that they disapprove and that they are against this- whether it’s Chillul Shabbos or reform or some other kind of public aveirah.
And that’s the question, is the purpose of these public protests to show that the Frum Jews do not accept this unholiness in our land and we will stand up for it, or are these protests for the purpose of actually stopping the unholiness and being mekarev the perpetrators? Charedim seem to prefer the former while Dati Leumi seem to prefer the latter.November 11, 2015 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1112079zahavasdadParticipant
You only rebuke if you think it will work, rebuke is counter-productive if the person will not listen and may even give it back to you.November 12, 2015 9:41 am at 9:41 am #1112080SoftwordsParticipant
rwndk1 – thank you for sharing your personal experiences with us.
Avi K – your response to rwndk1 seems to have a tinge of hostility in it and unfortunately, in my opinion, some errors as well. I will contend, however, that you are correct that DL has a range of hashkafa and/or lifestyles. However, rwndk1 was talking about the majority of DL Jews.
In my experience with communities such as Efrat, Maaleh Adumim, RBS A, the old city, and a host of Yeshuvim (many Bnei Akivak) rwndk1’s assessment seems to be the rule more than the exception. That’s not to say that Chareidim communities are not suffering these breaches as well. However, as someone already pointed out, in our community they know deep down that they are acting wrong. Those DLs that act that way think their ways are totally acceptable.
You mention “filters” and used Adblock as an example. Although Adblock “filters” Ads, that is not what we are referring to when we speak about “filters”. When we say “filters” we are referring to blocking entire websites, not just ads. Examples are Nativ, Etrog, and Rimon (in Israel). WebChaver, YeshivaNet, and CovenantEyes (in USA). In my personal discussions with DL acquaintances I have yet to meet any that filter (not to say there are no DLs that do). Furthermore, most get hostile with me as if I just insulted their integrity by suggesting to use a filter. BTW – I’m assuming from your words that you do not have a filter in place. That’s a shame. 🙁
To end off, your last words imply that by not following your views concerning secular education, kollel, and allegiance to a secular government that we are “sinning”. First of all, you’ve now answered “Rabbi of Crawley’s” question. We hold you are making a “terrible mistake”. You hold we are “sinning”. How then can we expect to have peace between us with such attitudes as yours? You make it impossible.
Secondly, the Gemorah discusses secular education and basically frowns down upon it (look it up). Furthermore, the Natziv closed down his Yeshivah in order not to have forced secular education. This is a long discussion and here is not the place for it.
Kollel was instituted when the chochomim saw a need for it. The Chofetz Chaim was in favor of it, so too Rav Kook (there’s about 200 kollelites in Mircas HaRav). No one argues about the mitzvah of parnasa. The only argument is when and who.
Medinah – Accepting to include DL leading Rabbanim as among the Gedolim of our generation, still Rov Gedolim are against the Medinah. So even if you have the rights to follow your Gedolim, non-the-less that gives you no rights to refer to the Rov as sinners! Fakirt, “Holchim Achar HaRov”.
The first step towards Shalom is accepting other opinions. I hope that will be accomplished.November 12, 2015 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1112081SoftwordsParticipant
Rabbi of Crawley – quote “MIR HAS EVEREYONE – CHASSIDIM, LITVAKS, YEKKES, EVEN SEFARDIM AND YEMENITES, BUT NO…. NO DATI LEUMI!!!”
I hate to bust your bubble, but that is not entirely true.
First of all, in my Yeshiva we had a number of guys from KBY, Yeshiva HaKotel, MO schools in America, and Mamlachti Dati institutions. The only thing is that as time goes by they become integrated (by choice) into the Chareidi community, so unless you ask you’d never know that they were once DL. I assume it is the same in Mir.
#2 – Rav Finkel, z”l had a policy not to ask a talmid’s background. His only concerns were “are you interested in learning” and “are you a mentch”. The true reason why you don’t see DL in the MIR is because there isn’t a great desire among them to go there. Given a choice between Mir or Mercas HaRav the vast majority of DL will pick the latter. So what’s your point?November 12, 2015 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1112082
Softwords: I appreciated your comments, even though I think you are wrong. AT least, your words echo “divrei chachomim benachas nishmoim”. Unfortunately, you are wrong in most of your comments. You try to justify kollelim. The problem is not a few kollels , something that has been with us forever. The problem- and the tragedy- is that,in Israel, every chareidi is encouraged to go to kollel, regardless of his merits. To add insult to injury, they rely on the klal to support them. That is an impossible situation as you readily know. And, of course, you minimize the duty of working and supporting one’s family. That is the halacha and I cannot see how anyone in the last century can justify ignoring a slew of halochos.
As far as the medinah- virtually all chareidi gedolim vote, receive financial benefits from the medinah,are protected by the army and the police……etc. I don’t see how you can say that they are against the medinah. That is ludicrous. The arguments you espouse have long been resolved, with the Holocaust and the establishment of the medinah. It may have historical curiosity, not reality.November 12, 2015 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1112083sonMember
There isn’t “such friction.”November 12, 2015 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1112084MDGParticipant
“Secondly, the Gemorah discusses secular education and basically frowns down upon it (look it up).”
Please provide a source.
” Furthermore, the Natziv closed down his Yeshivah in order not to have forced secular education. This is a long discussion and here is not the place for it.”
Not exactly. The Russian government wanted to make the secular studies the ikkar (from morning until mid-afternoon) and Torah the taffel. It seems that the Natziv would have accepted some secular studies bedeiavad, but not the way it was being put upon him. Also the Russians wanted to dictate the curriculum.November 13, 2015 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1112085karlbenmarxParticipant
Charlie, the IDF lately has been destroying shuls, Jewish homes and kicking out Jews from their homes (ever heard of Gush katif or Yamit or Atzmona ?)even the Iranian govt doesnt do that. two days ago the knesset had a meeting where the majority of its non-religous members opposed lehava and the great work they do to fight INTERMARRIAGE and convering to ISLAM in Israel. Now the prominent ZIONIST rabbonim came out telling IDF soldiers not to obey these evil orders. The IDF doesnt protect Jews it carries out the orders of this anti-religous and Hellenist government.November 14, 2015 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1112086
1. I disagree with your assessment of the majority of the DL community.
2. On the contrary, the Gemara requires a man to teach his son a trade. In our thime this means secular subjects. Moroever, Rabbenu Bechaye and the Gra said that a person cannot be considered wise if he does not possess seven fields of secular wisdom (among them math, astronomy and music). The Maharal’s talmid muvchak, Rabbi David Ganz, was an associate of Tycho Brahe. The Netziv closed the yeshiva because the Russian government wanted to gradually eliminate religious studies. In contrast, the Pressburg yeshiva had an arrangement by which talmidim were exempted from the draft as theological students in exchange for passing the external baccalaureate (something like an academic high school diploma) exams.
3. Peace does not mean not disagreeing or not giving mussar. On the contrary, “????? ?????” is next to “????? ???? ????”. If pointed debating is friction (and BTW, I heard from one of his talmidim that Rav Gustman said that in Grodno it was permitted to call one’s chevruta any name except “baal bayit”) than let their be friction. However, my experience is that Chareidim and DL have no problem davening in each other’s shuls. Some Chareidim will not eat by DL but from what I have heard from Chareidi rabbanim this is am haaratzut (see Mishna Berura 318:2 that b’diavad one may rely on opinions that one does not generally accept). Marriages are also rare but that is also true regarding Litvaks and Chassidim as well asAshkenazi and Sephardi chareidim (among DL this si not an issue at all). This has already been discussed on another thread.November 15, 2015 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1112087HaKatanParticipant
“I don’t see how you can say that they are against the medinah. That is ludicrous. The arguments you espouse have long been resolved, with the Holocaust and the establishment of the medinah. It may have historical curiosity, not reality.”
I respect your choice to be fooled by Zionism, R”L L”A. But please don’t spread lies.
As Rabbi Reisman wrote a short number of years ago, nothing has changed regarding the 3 Oaths (despite the terribly unfortunate fact that the Zionists achieved their dream of creating a State of Israel in order to shmad) and that and other (major) problems with Zionism as per the gedolim. The only change that did occur is what practical actions are demanded by this new “fact on the ground”. This could include, depending on your shita, voting in Zionist elections, for example. But the “opposition” to the state remains unchanged.
Zionism is the same idolatry and heresy that it always was. The very nature of the State of Israel is Zionist, which means that its reason for existence is to “normalize” the Jewish people and change them from the am haNivchar based on Torah to just another gentile nation based on a nation-state in Eretz Yisrael.November 15, 2015 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1112088
HaKatan: see my earlier comment. See gemoro Sottah 10A.
Secondly, you live in a warped time machine of the 17th century and you are hallucinating. If-chas vecholilo-the medinah would disappear, every Jew in Israel, man, woman, child ,would either be slaughtered or become a slave. You are putting all your heads in the sand when you are ignoring what is going on in the vicinity.November 16, 2015 6:43 am at 6:43 am #1112089
HaKatan, I did not hear exactly what Rav Reisman said. However, it is correct that nothing has changed.They were not obligatory then and are not now. Anti-Zionism is idolatry as it denies Hashem’s hand in history and the great miracles He has given us. Someone who votes de facto accepts the state (and BTW, the then head of the Aguda in EY, Rav Yitzchak Meir Levin, signed the declaration of independence). Someone who holds public office declares it explicitly.November 16, 2015 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #1112090
I think some chareidim don’t like the dati leumi because of their terrible hashkafose including that people should work to support themselves, and that people have an achrayus to the larger tzibbur to serve in the army and protect the country. Chareidim know that all people would just sit and learn Torah properly then we wouldn’t have an army at all. Like consider bnei yisroel in the times of Dovid and Shlomo hamelech — did they fight in the army and work?! or did they just sit and learn Torah. Of course they all sat and learned Torah. Once the dati leumi tzibbur gets this, there can be much more achdus.November 16, 2015 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1112091
Or perhaps because of snark like that.November 16, 2015 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1112092
Touche.November 16, 2015 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #1112093
M: I take your comments as sarcasm……thank you for pointing out the absurdity if the anti-zionist thoughts.November 16, 2015 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1112094
M: Thank you. I honestly believe that if we respect the sincerity of our different beliefs – not accepting the opinions themselves, but perhaps understanding where they come from and the acknowledging the sincerity behind them – we can go a long way towards healing the unnecessary animosity.
ROB, that was a perfect example. You know that there are answers to all this, (there’s no need to rehash), so by calling our mehalech, as set forth by gedolim such as the Chazon Ish and Rav Shach, absurd, you only increase the bad blood.November 16, 2015 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1112095
DaasYochid — sarcasm aside, I think that these two points are tremendously vexing. You and I can respect one another’s sincerity. I have no doubt that the majority of chareidi people are sincere and thoughtful and passionate and genuinely good people at heart.
But at the same time, it is very hurtful that almost none of them participate in protecting our country. Think about how offensive it is to someone who has risked their life — their life! — to patrol borders, to fight terrorism, to make sure that you and I and our children will all have a place to call home, a place where we can all sit and learn as much Torah as we’d like for as long as we’d like. Imagine the frustration at seeing an enormous segment of the population say, no thank you. We can understand where you’re coming from and still be extremely angry. Nu, it would be one thing for a portion of the the population to “opt-out”. Not every person is matim. But for the entire community? Of course it doesn’t bother Israelis if a bachur in Brooklyn does not fight, or if a kollel man in BMG does not fight. They don’t benefit and don’t contribute. Nicha. But for a tremendous segment of the population to take and benefit, and to not acknowledge the ultimate contributions of the rest of the population, that is very hurtful. The Chazon Ish asked for a ptur for a small group of bochrim, not for the entire population.
Likewise, when it comes to working. Of course many chareidim work. But many don’t, and the poverty which they create becomes a burden shouldered by the rest of the nation. When someone in bnei brak chooses to not work and is ok living poorly, it’s not just that he’ll get by with less, he’ll get by on the backs of the many who work hard yomam vlayla to put bread on the table, who work tireless in all professions to provide for the needs of their families and others. When a large segment of the population says no thank you, I’m happy to live off the kindness of others, that too is tremendously upsetting.
I can understand where you are coming from, and I can respect you to some extent, but it is very difficult to be ok with it.
DaasYochid — what do you think about all of this?November 16, 2015 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1112096
Here is a small “thought-experiment”. DaasYochid, imagine that I told you that I was moving down the block from you. I had never before learned meseches temura or uktzin, or yevamose b’iyun, and decided to spend the next several years of my life trying to learn those mesechtose. Of course I need a way to put food on the table so I ask you if you’d be willing to support me — I don’t need much, just a bed and minimal food. You’re a nice guy, and of course care very much about talmud torah, so you say yes, you’re willing to put me up a few dollars per week for so I can learn Torah.
After a few months you realize that supporting me is a bit of strain on your finances so you say, hey M, I’m really sorry but I can’t keep up this arrangement, money is tight. I say to you, DaasYochid, what do you mean? I see that you guys go out to dinner every other week. Why not just stop doing that, and you’ll have plenty of money left to support me? You mull it over and, realizing that talmud torah is more important that dining out, agree.
Another few months later, things are difficult again, and you come to me saying, look, things aren’t working out. And I say, what do you mean DaasYochid, I saw that last yuntif you bought your wife a beautiful new dress and gold earrings. I saw you bought your children new clothing. Surely you can find the cash to support a budding talmid chacham who just wants to learn? Again you acquiesce and continue sending me checks. You even trade in your new Camry for an older vehicle so that you can support me with the difference.
A few months later you realize that this is all a bit much and you really, really can’t continue doing this. As kindly as you can you explain the situation to me. And you ask me to find someone else that can support you. It’s ok, I understand, you just don’t appreciate the value of talmud torah like I do. To you, material possessions are more important than ruchniyus. Your once-a-year vacation with your family is more important than talmud torah. Whatever…
Can you imagine how aggravated you would be in this situation? Of course you care about talmud torah, since you just supported me for several years. You’d probably feel pushed around a bit even when you cut me checks willingly. And this is how I sometimes feel about many chareidi institutions. They move into town, with a cadre of young men eager to learn and teach Torah. Of course I want to support them — halvai that I could sit and learn all day, eating food from shamayim. But it is a strain, of course. And then there is the guilt — what, you don’t care about talmud torah? They do this to all of the balebatim, and of course people give willingly — how can they say no to the rosh kollel? Don’t they care about Talmud Torah?!
And this is what happens when one year the Israeli government decides to give less to yeshivas — “It’s because they hate Torah!!!” “They’re doing this because they hate chareidim!!” “What, they have money to give to open a museum, but not for a yeshiva?!?!”
But I think you, a person who certainly appreciates talmud torah, even you would probably resent a group of people moving into your area insisting that you and your friends support them, and then guilting them about how learning must not be important to you. It’s very aggravating.
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