November 16, 2015 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1112097american_yerushalmiParticipant
To “M”: someone serving in artillery is not asked why is not also serving in tanks. Someone in amphibious commando (“Shyetet 13”) is not asked why, additionally, he is not a pilot. Everyone has their assigned task. Even the “jobniks” contribute something important, albeit not as “glamorous” or in times of conflict, as dangerous. Everyone here knows there are 5-6 “jobniks” for every combat soldier. Not everyone is a combat soldier. And unless there is a “real” war (last time was Yom Kippur 1973), only about 25% or so of the soldiers are actually “exposed to danger.”
The Bnei Torah are serving the nation with their learning. They are contributing mightily to the defense of the Jewish people in Eretz Yisrael. It’s too bad that so many people still don’t understand this. But this does not change the facts. A cadre of people constantly learning Torah is part of the overall defense scheme.November 16, 2015 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1112098rabbiofberlinParticipant
M: your words perfectly encapsulate what many ex-chareidim feel in light of today’s chareidi lifestyle. That was masterful.
DaasYochid: The Chazon Ish zz’l died over sixty years ago and you cannot how he would react today in view of the murderous new developments all over the Arab world which, incidentally, have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the medinah. That goes for all those gedolim of yesteryear who did not face today’s actuality.
edited out of respect (I refer to the wording)November 16, 2015 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1112099
DaasYochid — what do you think about all of this?
I still think you should drop the anger.November 16, 2015 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1112100Avi KParticipant
Amer, you are absolutely correct – but only regarding those who are really learning – and Rav Gustman said that in time of war that means that they sleep with their shoes on ready to go to the bet midrash at a moment’s notice like soldiers. This is only true of a small elite and everyone agrees that they should receive a deferment (although really they should also begin their learning with a declaration that in its merit the troops should be successful and also periodically give shiurim) . They must be encouraged to serve in the IDF and go to work.
edited for obvious reasons, lack of validity being one of themNovember 16, 2015 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1112101rabbiofberlinParticipant
american yerushalmi: There clearly is a problem of communication here.
No one-to my knowledge- is against a kollel system that rewards the few who are exceptional talmidei chacomim. As a matter of fact, this was the system for hundreds of years- a few, select metsuyonim were supported by the community or by their parents and parents in law. What many people are objecting to today is the Israeli system that gives every person coming out of yeshiva the right- not even the privilege but the right!- to sit in kollel at someone else’s expense. Forever.THAT is the reason why you see so much opposition to the present system. Not to mention that they avoid going to the army, thereby causing the resentment of their compatriots.November 16, 2015 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1112102MParticipant
DaasYochid — I can certainly drop the sarcasm, but the anger is harder to put down. Controlling feelings is much harder than controlling actions, and I don’t think I can just drop it any more than you can decide to arbitrarily like or not like someone. I believe that the resentment which the chareidi tzibbur creates is genuine and very understandable. In a subsequent post I attempted to portray my point of view and why I resent particular sentiments in the chareidi world.
Comments such as those of american_yerushalmi are also very upsetting, and create more resentment. Of course learning Torah is important and of course every person in battle plays a different role. However, who decided that this means that every bochur should be learning for ten years? Did every bochur tell Dovid Hamelech, no thank you, we’re learning Torah. Was all fighting left to non-chareidim? When the Torah tells us that a man ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? or ??? ??? ??? ???? or ??? ??? ???? ???? are pturim from fighting — why didn’t the Torah tell us someone who is sitting and learning? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????.
american_yerushalmi, please do not say silly things like “only about 25% or so of the soldiers are actually “exposed to danger.”” Does that mean 25% of people that were shot at? 25% that fight in Gaza? Every single person that wears bidgei milchama is risking his or her life to fulfill their responsibility towards HKB”H and his nation, to protect them and be ready for the unfortunate realities and possibilities of violence. Nowhere do we find in the chumash or nach or midrashim or gemarose or poskim an idea that every young man learning Torah is patur from going to the army. Please do not make things up in the name of Torah.November 16, 2015 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1112103
ROB, if you would truly understand his view, you would realize that that is incorrect. I don’t want to argue the point here, though. We’ve argued it enough; I think this thread should be about turning down the rhetoric, respecting each other, and having achdus.
M, your perspective is skewed, but again, this thread isn’t about that. I think you should respect the fact that we do not view it that way at all, and lose the anger. That’s all I’m saying here.November 16, 2015 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1112104MParticipant
DaasYochid — please stop asking others for respect without first acknowledging their frustrations, it is not fair. If you can’t understand why chareidi behavior is infuriating (to many), then I don’t believe you have thought enough about this. Have you thought about the thought-experiment at the end of page 2? I am interested in hearing your take.November 16, 2015 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1112105
I do think it’s frustrating, but is usually accompanied by the worst kind of (unjustified) insults. Your analogy (“thought experiment”) is actually offensive and insulting; all I ask is that you recognize that we don’t intend our actions the way you perceive them, and drop the anger.November 17, 2015 5:51 am at 5:51 am #1112106Avi KParticipant
Moderator, who decides validity? What about the claim on another thread about Hesderniks going oTD?
I did not approve that other post but can look back at it. I am surprised you question my argument against an “all” statement, when even most “most” statements could be questioned for validity.
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