Defining "The Shidduch Crisis"

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  • #614597

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    When discussing shidduchim, the term “the shidduch crisis” is often used. However, different people use the term differently. This often leads to a lack of proper communication. I think it would be helpful to list the different ways the terms are used, and when someone refers to how they have identified the cause of the shidduch crisis, or how they have solved it, we can ask them which definition (or definitions) they mean. I will list several, and everyone is welcome to add their own.

    1) The excess of girls who want to get married over boys who want to get married

    2) Girls not getting shidduch suggestions

    3) Girls not going out

    4) The over all large number of singles who wish they were married (both boys and girls)

    5) The over all largr number of singles who aren’t getting shidduch suggestions

    6) The over all large number of singles who aren’t going out

    7) Specific characteristics or circumstances of girls who aren’t married

    8) Specific characteristics or circumstances of girls who aren’t getting shidduch suggestions

    9) Specific characteristics or circumstances of girls who aren’t going out

    10) Specific characteristics or circumstances of all singles who aren’t married

    11) Specific characteristics or circumstances of all singles who aren’t getting shidduch suggestions

    12) Specific characteristics or circumstances of all singles who aren’t going out

    13) The agmas nefesh felt by single girls because they aren’t married/aren’t getting shidduch suggestions/aren’t going out

    14) The agmas nefesh felt by all singles because they aren’t married/aren’t getting shidduch suggestions/aren’t going out

    #1153090

    147
    Participant

    Make absolutely no mistake whatsoever:- Boys have plenty hard time getting dates & right dates & getting married, and should also receive full dosage of sympathy & assistance; Not only the girls.

    #1153091

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Some boys do. Some girls don’t. On the whole, it seems a whole lot more common for girls to have a hard time.

    I have sympathy for both girls and boys who are having a hard time.

    #1153092

    Vogue
    Member

    I think a lot of the issues in terms of shidduch suggestions can be eliminated by using certain labels for hashkafa.

    #1153093

    Joseph
    Participant

    #4 is the most accurate description (with #14 falling along the same lines.)

    #1153094

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    the over all number of large singles.

    the reason for the shidduch crisis is whatever you really hate about the shidduch system and/or its users.

    #1153095

    picturesq
    Member

    The shidduch crisis is how in recent generations the marital age has been rising (a bad habit we unfortunately seem to have picked up from the goyim.)

    #1153096

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    in recent generations the marital age has been rising

    What age are they typically getting married at, and what used to be the typical age?

    #1153097

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    “the over all number of large singles.”

    Huh?

    #1153098

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    #13.

    Although some boys are also having a hard time finding a shidduch (and I certainly feel for them), if for only them alone I don’t believe we would treat it the way we do now. There have always been some boys who did not get married (for whatever reason, but needing to take care of sick parents is one I’ve seen time and time again with 50/60 year old men) and we would go forward.

    The rest is deleted because it would be hurtful to girls who wait by the phone, which is (IMHO) the bigger issue than not being married.

    The problem with your definitions is that they are all intertwined. For example, in our current situation, poorer girls have much less of a possibility of marrying a kollel boy than a rich girl, and it shows as more poorer girls not getting married. However, if the girls would not feel the need to marry kollel boys, then their lack of wealth would be less of a factor. Certainly if they didn’t feel their self-worth was tied into being married (to a kollel boy), lack of wealth would be a non-factor, and they would be able to work on being an Oved Hashem and doing what Hashem wants from them.

    #1153099

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Of course they’re intertwined. This wasn’t supposed to be a multiple choice quiz; they could all be legitimately defined as “the shidduch crisis”, but it’s useful, IMO, to identify how you’re using it in a particular context.

    I’m assuming that you, gavra, are referring to how you used it here:

    If you could change the Shidduch System

    Would you say that you exclude #1 from your definition, or do you mean both?

    #1153100

    picturesq
    Member

    What age are they typically getting married at, and what used to be the typical age?

    To take an example, in the 60s, 70s and 80s the frum American litvish generally got married by the early 20s at the latest. (Of course there were exceptions.) Now the popular age has moved to the mid 20s. And there are more exceptions where the age is even older.

    #1153101

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do you think the change you observe is intentional or not?

    #1153102

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: #1 is (IMHO) very subjective. I don’t know how many boys want to get married to girls just out of Sem, and how many are scared off by the (very reasonable in our society) possibility of divorce and alimony, let alone OTD, 612, and those who just don’t want the responsibility. I believe it is a reasonable assumption that 90+ % of girls (with a frum upbringing) want to get married (although I have no stats). Chazal say that the percentage of boys is significantly less (Tav L’Matav), and Puk Chazi says the same thing. However, I don’t know the numbers so I’m not going to guess.

    Also (and I hate to do this), the word “want” is imprecise. If a boy would like/prefer to be married, but is not active looking for dates, but the girl believes the only reason that she exists is to get married, can you qualify both as “want”?

    #1153103

    picturesq
    Member

    Perhaps it is the semantics of referring to low 20s. In those times the general age of marriage, even for guys, was between 19 and 22. (Usually, though, at least 20 and not too infrequently 23.) The low 20s in your circles today I would guess is generally most often beginning at 23 or so, no?

    What do you mean by intentional? It may have been somewhat intentional in the sense that people wanted to accomplish certain milestones prior to marriage but perhaps more so it kind of slipped without people explicitly deciding to get married a bit later.

    #1153104

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, I am kind of assuming that the vast majority in yeshivish circles do want to get married – I am not puk chaziing what you are, I guess. I say “want” in the sense that a boy who’s 20 and still plans to go to yeshiva in E.Y. does not (yet) want to get married, while a girl that age back from sem (or if she -gasp- didn’t go) is usually “in the parsha”.

    BTW, tav l’meisav doesn’t seem to address numbers, just how much she’s willing to “settle”. Just saying.

    Of course definitions are imprecise, but that doesn’t preclude making generalizations, especially when discussing a societal issue.

    #1153105

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Picturesq, if it’s by design, in other words they’re not actively trying to, or extremely desirous of, getting married, then I wouldn’t call it a crisis. Unless, I guess, you think they’re making a big mistake; then , I suppose, you could call it a crisis.

    #1153106

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: But many who come back to Lakewood (or Rav Asher) would not really mind if they got to stay an extra year or 18 months in Yeshiva without the Raichaim B’Tzavaram. Not true with girls. It still goes back to #13, that girls have a desperate need to get married, while boys don’t (to the same extent).

    Tav l’meisav could explain that need, but we don’t see the girls settling until they are much older (and at that point, what they settle for is many times either married or no longer interested in them).

    The numbers (boys not wanting to get married vs. girls) is part of the question/solution, not the crisis.

    #1153107

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So let them marry the 25 year old boys.

    (Of course, age-gap population growth theory says that because the boys wait, there are more girls than boys who “want to” get married.)

    I’m not sure why you think it’s a solution, unless you mean that the boys should marry earlier, in which case we’re in agreement.

    #1153108

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    So let them marry the 25 year old boys.

    Why would the 25 year boys want to marry a poor 22 year old girl?

    #1153109

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If there weren’t more girls than boys, some would have to, or remain single for extra years. Yet, I don’t think there’s a problem that older boys aren’t married because they can’t find girls with a good financial situation to go out with.

    In fact, most 22 year old girls should be FD.

    #1153110

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If there weren’t more girls than boys, some would have to, or remain single for extra years. Yet, I don’t think there’s a problem that older boys aren’t married because they can’t find girls with a good financial situation to go out with.

    Gavra, first of all, without a job or parental support, less isn’t the issue, the issue is paying basic bills. Harbeh asu? Maybe, Hashem can certainly do anything, but ein somchin al haneis.

    As you yourself pointed out, the boys are unable to get married without support. As such, the poor girls aren’t getting married to those sorts of guys, as they guys can wait yet another year for the new crop of girls out of brainwashing, I mean seminary.

    Also, what does FD stand for?

    #1153111

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s not what’s generally happening, though.

    FD = financially desirable. It’s a takeoff on the more famous GD, which stands for geographically desirable (and is probably a bigger factor than FD).

    #1153112

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    That’s not what’s generally happening, though.

    That? Assuming you mean the guys are not waiting, there are enough girls whose parents can support (or eventually, the girl themselves) that guys can bypass those who can’t support.

    Also, who says that they aren’t waiting already, as otherwise (if they would be supported all those years) they would get married younger?

    Finally, OT/PT/Speech does not make someone FD, as it does not buy a house and a two car lease. Only a Shver or an accountant (or lawyer) will do that.

    #1153113

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, but the vast majority of boys aren’t holding out for that. They simply want to be able to learn and pay their bills. You’re propogating a nasty and mostly untrue stereotype.

    #1153114

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Yes, but the vast majority of boys aren’t holding out for that. They simply want to be able to learn and pay their bills. You’re propagating a nasty and mostly untrue stereotype.

    In this society, paying tuition (even in Lakewood) costs more than two leased cars and a house. So are you saying they want even more money???

    Even rent, food, etc. (excluding tuition) costs more than what an OT/PT/Speech or a teacher makes. I think you are overly optimistic regarding the earning power of a typical Bais Yaakov graduate.

    #1153115

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Houses aren’t as expensive as people think. They just happen not to be in New York.

    #1153116

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, I have just observed that the boys (or parents) are not turning down shidduchim based on such a long term financial picture.

    #1153117

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Houses aren’t as expensive as people think. They just happen not to be in New York.

    As DY would say, GD (Geographically (un)desirable).

    No, I have just observed that the boys (or parents) are not turning down shidduchim based on such a long term financial picture.

    DY, explain yourself. You have said time again that boys need to marry assuming they will be supported, and that the couple themselves will be unable to support (which is why you would need the parents to discuss support before they go out, and certainly before they get engaged). On the other hand, you’re telling me that the boy would be happy with a wife who is earning 30K in OT/PT/Speech (part time) or a teacher (if that much), which he could make himself if he so desired to work hard (even without a degree). What are these boys thinking?

    #1153118

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They’re looking at a 5-10 year picture.

    Not that longer term would be a chisaron, but they’re not turning down shidduchim for it.

    #1153119

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    They’re looking at a 5-10 year picture.

    Not that longer term would be a chisaron, but they’re not turning down shidduchim for it.

    So how does OT/PT/Speech/Teacher help without shver support? And what happens after 5-10 years?

    #1153120

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A teacher (unless in the public school system) doesn’t make enough without some shver support, but OT/PT can with a big enough work load, and there are other jobs which do better and are becoming increasingly popular. Computers is one thing that comes to mind.

    After 5-10 years, each story is different, but if at that point she’s not earning enough, he is usually working or at least taking courses.

    And most guys understand this when getting married.

    #1153121

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    A teacher (unless in the public school system) doesn’t make enough without some shver support, but OT/PT can with a big enough work load, and there are other jobs which do better and are becoming increasingly popular. Computers is one thing that comes to mind.

    I grant you that I’m not familiar with the “computers” job market, but other than a code monkey (which doesn’t pay), how much can someone make without being a real professional (which means going to a real college, etc.)? Also for OT/PT, how heavy of a workload is possible with the expectation of children? I have not seen that OT/PT/Speech is an acceptable alternative to Shver support, but we may see it differently.

    #1153122

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Computer jobs can start at $45k per, with a pretty decent upside.

    Also, a 22 year old girl could have a year or two’s salary put away. You’re probably thinking shver support as full support, but that’s not too common. It’s usually just about enough to cover rental of a basement apartment.

    #1153123

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Computer jobs can start at $45k per, with a pretty decent upside.

    Also, a 22 year old girl could have a year or two’s salary put away. You’re probably thinking shver support as full support, but that’s not too common. It’s usually just about enough to cover rental of a basement apartment.

    Sounds reasonable to me. So why aren’t the 25 year old boys marrying the 22 year old girls who have 2 years worth of rent in their pockets?

    #1153124

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Who says they aren’t?

    #1153125

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Who says they aren’t?

    You, who said that they need support from their shver!

    #1153126

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I said they need money, I didn’t say it davka has to be from the shver. It could be from the shver, it could be from the shvigger, it could be from a job, it could be from from a yerushah from Tante Bertha who nebach didn’t get along with her kids.

    #1153127

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: So if money can be from the girl, why is it important for the parents to discuss money before the couple gets engaged/married? (going full circle)

    #1153128

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Because not every girl earns enough.

    #1153129

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    1: So let the 19 year old straight out of Sem children be supported and live by Mommy and Daddy for another few years before they move out. It seems like the only reason that support is needed to be discussed is because the couple isn’t really ready to get married, which then certainly the parents are going to be in charge of their “married” children (who are Somech al Shulchan Avihem, with the halachic ramifications thereof?). In that case, of course the parents should discuss support, no different than sending your 10 year old to camp and expecting them to pay for it!!

    2: Shouldn’t how much money is “enough” be a decision of the couple, not one that involves the parents?

    #1153130

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    1) Do you work for NASI?

    2) Way to start a relationship!

    #1153131

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    1) Do you work for NASI? – No, NASI wouldn’t be that crude. Do you agree with the point?

    2) Way to start a relationship! – At some point during the dating process this has to be discussed even if parents are involved. If one side has a very different expectation of finances (or worse, expectations regarding lifestyle) then the couple is not compatible, and if they do get married, they will fight about it constantly.

    #1153132

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    1) No, I think b’etzem 20 is usually a better age, but if financial necessity dictates, she may have to wait a couple of years.

    2) I disagree. Let the parents work out the financial prerequisites.

    #1153133

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    1) No, I think b’etzem 20 is usually a better age, but if financial necessity dictates, she may have to wait a couple of years.

    2) I disagree. Let the parents work out the financial prerequisites.

    You seem to believe that a couple should get married before they are able to be responsible for themselves, let alone having children. The parents of such couple can continue to be responsible for them. Agree or disagree?

    #1153134

    picturesq
    Member

    Financial issues should not be a reason to delay marriage. (Unless one believes that poor people, who have no reason to think they will soon change their financial status, should forgo getting married.)

    #1153135

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Financial issues should not be a reason to delay marriage. (Unless one believes that poor people, who have no reason to think they will soon change their financial status, should forgo getting married.)

    I don’t (necessarily) disagree. Were you addressing my points?

    #1153136

    picturesq
    Member

    Not necessarily. I wasn’t sure if I was getting vibes from the conversation that indicated a thought that financial security must first be in place prior to marriage.

    #1153137

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You seem to believe that a couple should get married before they are able to be responsible for themselves, let alone having children. The parents of such couple can continue to be responsible for them. Agree or disagree?

    Disagree. The equation between preparation for marriage and responsibility to maintain the marriage is a false one.

    I don’t (necessarily) disagree.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/frumyeshiva-working-boy#post-552299

    #1153138

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Not necessarily. I wasn’t sure if I was getting vibes from the conversation that indicated a thought that financial security must first be in place prior to marriage.

    Or a plan for such, yes. That does not mean that marriage should be pushed off, it means the plan should be in place (even if he really wants to learn, maybe he should think again long and hard. It is very likely that he is already being pulled by the dark side, if he is honest with himself. If he somehow is not, then he can be this Dor’s Ben Azzai and sit in Bais Medrash all day.)

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