Defining "The Shidduch Crisis"

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  • #1153293

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sometimes we don’t know why we started doing something, but the fact that it’s widely accepted indicates there must have been a good reason it was started in the first place.

    That argument is humorously weak.

    Do you still wash your clothing in the river?

    #1153294

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Do you still not eat fish and meat?

    #1153295

    kapusta
    Participant

    Well done

    Was this a test? Can I choose a sticker? *eyeroll*

    The point simply is that the total number of 19 year olds far exceeds the total number of 23 year olds)

    Of frum (yeshivish) 19 year olds? No idea. We only have a number of people who affiliated themselves with the yeshivish community during their schooling years and we have no idea how the number is affected by the time those people are 23, and that number only includes people in the US, obviously not eligible singles from overseas or who were not originally included in the numbers.

    I said I was finished with this conversation here and bli neder, after this post I will be. If you can prove that there are more singles in shidduchim than there have been in the past, and take all people otd, baalei teshuva etc into account please do so. But no one has any answers. And that still doesn’t stop you from dictating people’s lives. It’s actually amazing.

    The longer this conversation gets, the more I smell a rat. I hope people are paying attention.

    #1153296

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, and the chassidim don’t, and the Europeans don’t, and the Israeli chareidim don’t.

    But they all use washing machines.

    #1153297

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Gedolei Hador have previously exhorted the Tzibbur and Bochurim to make every effort to marry at the earliest appropriate age. Therefore, we encourage Bnei Torah and their parents, if it is consistent with the advice of their Rabbeim, to consider shidduchim at age 21. May a sweet and pleasant life be bestowed upon those who listen, and may they merit to build upstanding homes in Klal Yisrael, and to raise children and grand-children involved in Torah and Mitzvos.

    Even that is a strange message. Why did they print that, and not age 19? Why not age 12? If they are really just saying as early as you think is appropriate, why peg it?

    Also, in what world do rebbeim decide when a boy is ready to get married? I’ve never met any rebbi who would think that is his position. I’ve met boys who thought their rebbeim would, but they were wrong.

    #1153298

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Even that is a strange message. Why did they print that, and not age 19? Why not age 12? If they are really just saying as early as you think is appropriate, why peg it?

    Because they don’t think too many 12 year olds are ready to get married.

    Also, in what world do rebbeim decide when a boy is ready to get married? I’ve never met any rebbi who would think that is his position.

    Yeshiva world. I’ve seen it.

    #1153299

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s a Rebbi’s job to guide. If he abdicates that responsibility he’s failed his duty.

    #1153300

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It’s a Rebbi’s job to guide. If he abdicates that responsibility he’s failed his duty.

    You clearly had an unhealthy rebbi.

    #1153301

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: That’s a pretty messed up dynamic; I’m aware of children who think that, but I’ve met few adults.

    #1153302

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s not a matter of the rebbe dictating to the bochur.

    Haven’t you been shoel eitzah with a rebbe? Ultimately, a major part of the Rebbe’s answer is based on the particulars of that bochur’s situation and how the bochur feels about it, but the rebbe guides the bochur to eliminate the unimportant factors and focus on what matters for the decision.

    #1153303

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY, that’s not what the ad says.

    Also, sure, I’ve had that dynamic with rebbbeim. And friends. And other mentors. Yeshiva guys usually like to use a rebbi as that mentor for no very good reason other than convenience.

    #1153304

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yeshiva guys usually like to use a rebbi as that mentor for no very good reason other than convenience.

    Hopefully many rebbeim have maalos besides for convenience.

    #1153305

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Hopefully many rebbeim have maalos besides for convenience.

    Many do. So do many other mentors. Rebbeim are convenient.

    #1153306

    Joseph
    Participant

    popa, are fathers any more qualified, in your humble opinion, at being mentors than rebbeim?

    #1153307

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa, are fathers any more qualified, in your humble opinion, at being mentors than rebbeim?

    I don’t find my opinions particularly humble, so we can leave that accolade off.

    That’s a very interesting question, which I’m completely uninterested in.

    #1153308

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Apparently the advice to an overwhelming majority of bachurim is not to marry at an earlier age, because it is not happening in large numbers. Either that, or we have a separate problem, large percentages of bachurim and their parents ignoring the advice of those Rabbeim.

    #1153309

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “What’s so complicated? No one said more girls than boys are born every year. More CHILDREN OF BOTH GENDERS are born every subsequent year than the previous year because our population is growing B”H.

    It’s YEAR x that doesn’t match up to YEAR y in terms of the number of available singles. Whichever gender belongs to the younger year will bederech hateva have more unmatched members.”

    Since statistics show (freely available on the CDC website) that year after year on average 3 percent more boys than girls are born, even with larger “class size” every year, there are still on average 3% more boys than girls at every age, so naturally 3% boys at age X will have to marry someone of a different age. Are you saying that population growth far exceeds 3% on average year over year every year to the point that NASI is able to publish a statistic that 10% of girls at every age level wont have a shidduch?

    #1153310

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Apushatayid, your math is off. There would not need to be 3% annual population growth to offset 3% disparity in males/females unless there was only a one year age gap, but the age gap is significantly more than one year.

    #1153311

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Question for kapusta: you say there’s no “proof” of disparity in the number of males and females in shidduchim, so we shouldn’t do anything that’s harmful.

    What’s your proof that anything proposed would be harmful?

    #1153312

    jackl
    Member

    there is a sidduch crisis because in this part of the jewish world there are more girls graduating then boys.

    In some towns 2 or more to 1 ..and yes i did the math

    To make matters more difficult most of the girls graduate wanting to marry a learner while most of the boys dont really want to be a learner and dont have the make up to do so without a large inducement.

    Hatzlacha and bracha

    Maybe a more human approach would help too.

    #1153313

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    there is a sidduch crisis because in this part of the jewish world there are more girls graduating then boys.

    Graduating what, high school? Half of the boys go to yeshivas in other cities?

    #1153314

    jackl
    Member

    no not from high school just the various FRUM seminaries and garden variety bais yaakovs

    “half the boys” quite the statstic. In any event where ever the kids go post bais yaakov and yeshiva to continue learning most eventually come back to the city where they grew up.

    and in this city the number of girls graduating or coming back from …….. vastly outnumber the boys

    #1153315

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What are garden variety Bais Yaakovs?

    Which age group are you referring to? Where are the boys going to?

    #1153316

    kapusta
    Participant

    What’s your proof that anything proposed would be harmful?

    Whats your proof that the meat sold by a guy based only on his long white beard is not kosher? Or that an alcoholic behind a wheel will be in an accident? Or that its dangerous to walk into oncoming traffic?

    #1153317

    kapusta
    Participant

    When you have real numbers, I’ll be happy to continue the conversation.

    #1153318

    jackl
    Member

    Garden variety.. typical ….nondescript. The typical bais yaakov with another name added like Tifferes BY or Chedvas BY or Bnos BY

    The age girls return is 19 or 20 ish. Puts them about 2 years post bais yaakov and they are on the market. The boys start at 20 after 2 or 3 yrs away learning in Eretz Yisrol or elsewhere and up. Late bloomers.

    My point was currently there are more girls being produced by the system than the number of boys coming out of the same system. You can them add the boys taking a little longer to get in the parsha.

    The real problem is unrealistic expectations and more than enough responsibility ( not blame ) to go around.

    #1153319

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So you don’t have proof, it’s just your opinion.

    #1153320

    kapusta
    Participant

    Again, do you advocate buying meat from a person with no hashgacha?

    #1153321

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, but can you show me a precise citation in Shulchan Aruch, or is it just something you know through common sense?

    Do you advocate driving while intoxicated? Have you seen studies on it? Do you have proof? Do you have precise numbers showing how dangerous it is? Or are certain things so blatantly obvious that they don’t need precise numbers?

    Think about it.

    Whether or not there are precise numbers doesn’t change the blatantly obvious fact that there are a lot more single girls then boys. This is a tragedy of huge proportions, which some gedolim are viewing as a massive agunah issue, yet you want to do nothing about it until we have precise numbers?

    The solutions you think are “harmful” are not at all clearly so. There is an excellent case to be made that even if there were no shidduch catastrophe, these changes would still be very positive.

    You agree that certain things which are obvious without precise scientific studies,cyet you keep in insisting on proof, something which you can’t provide for your side of the argument.

    You know some things don’t require “proof”, but for some reason, on the topic of solutions to the shidduch crisis, you’ve mixed up what does and what doesn’t.

    At the expense of agunos.

    #1153322

    golfer
    Participant

    I admire your persistence, kapusta.

    You realize of course that next you’re going to be accused of causing global warming.

    #1153323

    Joseph
    Participant

    Where did ‘getting it right’ run off to?

    #1153324

    kapusta
    Participant

    Again, why not? Imagine all the money people can save.

    blatantly obvious fact

    Obvious only to you. And again you are telling me to believe your opinion, which you have no proof for. Against common sense. Again, I ask if you will buy meat from someone who tells you that its kosher, with no proof. Why are you more cavalier with people’s lives than with the meat you buy?

    #1153325

    kapusta
    Participant

    Thanks, golfer. That made me smile 🙂

    #1153326

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So you don’t have proof, it’s just your opinion.

    Right. Each of Kapusta and the well funded organization that has been devoted to this for 10 years and the rich dude from LA don’t have proof.

    Fascinating.

    #1153327

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, not only obvious to me, not by a long shot.

    And golfer, it’s not my view of the situation as an agunah situation, it’s the view of people much greater than either of us.

    #1153328

    kapusta
    Participant

    Umm yes, only obvious to you. Tell me again why your opinion should outweigh plenty of other peoples.

    #1153329

    Joseph
    Participant

    Shouldn’t the expressed opinions of the gedolim outweigh those lesser than them? Like us.

    #1153330

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As opposed to why yours should outweigh the many who disagree with you?

    #1153331

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rich dude didn’t become rich by wasting his money on nonsense.

    #1153332

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Mrs Gorf always had a lot of apples so when Louis saw one during on her desk, he ate it. Now there are too many students and not enough apples

    #1153333

    kapusta
    Participant

    The Gedolim have never said there are more single girls than boys.

    As opposed to why yours should outweigh the many who disagree with you?

    Who’s many? P-r-o-v-e.

    And with that I rest my case.

    #1153334

    kapusta
    Participant

    Now can someone start a gofundme to send all the age gappers to shidduch island and leave the rest of us in peace?

    #1153335

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Gedolim have never said there are more single girls than boys.

    This is not true.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9WREFuJVhRTd2hRV3B5bUN1bWc/view?usp=drive_web&safe=active&pref=2&pli=1

    #1153336

    Mammele
    Participant

    Well done DY.

    But now I really think you’re employed by Yeshiva World. (I don’t think you’re AZ though, if it makes you feel better.)

    #1153338

    kapusta
    Participant

    Finally, you came up with something! While I certainly respect the opinion of the gedolim, it is phrased specifically about the “result of population growth”, as well as from a good few years ago. When you have current numbers that factor in everything, and proof that there are more singles than there have been in the past, post them. Until then, I’ll let the other brains take over.

    #1153339

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    When you have current numbers that factor in everything,

    Because you think they missed something?

    and proof that there are more singles than there have been in the past

    What other irrelevant things would you like me to prove? Your entire premise was flawed, you decided that I made this up, and I was the only one saying this, and now that I’ve shown you that this has been public knowledge for years, you change the rules?

    #1153340

    kapusta
    Participant

    (In a rush)

    I think the info the age gap theory is working off of is missing something, and thats been my point the entire time.

    Irrelevant and flawed because you say they are? IIRC, rich dude mentioned in the Mishpacha article that we should look into unexplored options like baalei teshuva, so it seems he agrees that these numbers don’t include everything either.

    I’ve asked about eight times so far if there are more singles currently than in the past, and I never said that you made it up, only that you’re supporting something which is very questionable.

    You say you (age gappers) are in this to promote shidduchim and as far as I’m concerned, someone genuinely interested would acknowledge the glaring loopholes, and say that we need a comprehensive study to assess things fully. I havent seen that once. Only no answers.

    #1153341

    Joseph
    Participant

    kapusta, are you the same person who posted from this account for the last eight years? The comments you posted over the last number of days in this thread discussing the age gap are of a very different style than has been posted as kapusta anytime over the last eight+ years.

    #1153342

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So you do think that they missed something, because they agree with the theory.

    Here is the article.

    Mishpacha Magazine: There is no Shidduch Crisis!

    Please show me where he suggests that there’s a possibility that there’s really no catastrophe because perhaps 10% of girls from ffb families are marrying baalei teshuvah. (Hint: he doesn’t.)

    Whether there are more singles now or in the past is irrelevant, no matter how many times you may have or may not have asked.

    Umm yes, only obvious to you. – your words.

    #1153343

    golfer
    Participant

    What’s being overlooked (among other things) is the fact that there’s a significant difference between a Rav or Rosh Yeshiva signing his name to a message that he approves of, or giving a bracha to an endeavor, as opposed to the same Rav saying that something is muttar or assur or strongly advised.

    A simple interesting study might be examining ages of parties in recent engagements/ marriages in the immediate families of the gedolim DY is talking about.

    (An illustration of the above might be the simcha guidelines – does anybody remember those? – and how they worked out in different communities: litvish/yeshivish, and various brands of chassidish.)

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