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I just started reading this thread and scrolled through all messages until I finally saw it. Did the OP in all his research look into “Choftez Chaim” or any of its branches? Despite all the jokes about getting out of the box, the answers to why one lion is smiling and one not, in bekius seder they cover quite a lot of ground. In my 1st year in the beis medrash when the yeshiva was learning Baba Basra, the “quota” for my chavrusa and I was 1 blatt a week when we started in Elul and was was up to 2 blatt a week by the time the zman finished end of tammuz. 3 years later we were up to 4 blatt a week. The “quota” as we called it was based on the level of the chavrusas, the perek/daf being learned with input from one of the Rabbeim. Depending on the massechta you could cover 75-100 blatt a year, easily.
In CC, you will learn how to learn 75 blatt in a zman. That is what bekius seder is for. You think they just “daven up” daf after daf to cover ground? Look into it.
When its time head to brisk or r’ tzvi. they do about twenty something blatt first seder in a winter zman.
Chacham, it’s possible this isn’t your type of place, but you could probably find a shiur in Ner Yisroel that would go at that pace.
4 blatt a week for cc is a little too much (especially if you do first time second time) but 2 blatt a week is average
Mexipal. 2 blatt a week in eizehu neshech, sure. Depending on the massechta, perek and sugyos, 4 blatt a week is also very doable, even “1st time 2nd time”. Of course, the ones doing the learning are also taken into account. There are those who will always be a little better and those a little worse.
“EDITED”
Really? No external links even to shiurim?
” Of course, the ones doing the learning are also taken into account. There are those who will always be a little better and those a little worse.”
true but most guys do two blatt a week.
I don’t know what most guys do or did. When we learned kiddushin, my chavrusa and I did 4 blatt a week in the last 2 perakim. At any rate, at 2 blatt a week one will cover substantially more that 20 blatt a year. To the OP, I still think he should look into CC. He will learn how to learn 2 blatt a week.
It’s also important to differentiate between the different types of “going slow” as I can’t believe gedolim are against learning pshat, whatever it takes this generation to do so.
no offense to everone, but i think that a double standard is in place here. everyone here is ready to shrei chay vikayum about what certai gedolim said about derech halimud. (fine thats ok- even though i pointed out b4 that the gedolei north america have a way bigger haracha of R shach then we do and theyre still doing it so perhaps they might thought this through b4 allowing the masses to learn like this) its funny to point out that other things gedolim said seem to get brushed aside. i like to illustrate with the Chazon Ish ztl. Everyone knows the famous maaseh of how a top brain surgeon couldnt figure out a complicated surgery and when the Chazon Ish was asked he gave a simple solution that astonished all doctors involved. people hear this one and say wow ruach hakodesh, thats a gadol, he mustve been something. then they hear that the same man said that giyus bonos and sherut leumi is literally yaharog vi’al ya’avor and the response is..ya…well…he was extreme…we dont think so..etc. If you want to change systems and turn over north america(which im not saying is a bad thing) then dont pick the shittos that fit your agenda, rather, adhere to everything R shach said. and good luck with that, its not so easy
when youre a little older youll understand a little better what your rabbeim wanted from you and why it made sense. i understand your taaneh. give it time and keep at it and keep chazering. learn b’kius on your own (not shidchiyus- r shach in michtavim shrays against that,too) and learn seriously. youll remember and youll be surprised how much ground you can cover
Because on a superficial level Iyun separates those that ‘can learn’ over those that can’t. So everyone including the RYs themselves want to excel at this particular aspect of learning. Imagine a Yeshiva that excels in Bekius rather than Iyun. It would simply have a name for catering for less gifted students that can’t handle deep stuff like R’ Boruch Ber or R’ Shimon.
Like I said in my previous post, if you have a good head you can excel in Iyun pretty quickly with not much effort. However to become proficient in Shas takes long and tedious hard work. And our generation is not geared up for that. The accolades don’t come quick enough. That’s my humble opinion.
cuz clearly thats the north american mehalach. thought that was understood
Chacham- you write like someone I know. Are you from Passaic?
the satmer rabbi r’yoel system in his yishva was 2 blot gmura rashi tosfis mharshu rosh and mharshel this was the eyun and afternoon was shelchen urich and then bkeius was a blot a day gmure rashi tosfis and evry week evry buchir have to finish chimush rashi and was on top of and farhert it evry week a buchir that didn’t know chimush he didn’t farhet him gmure he use to say chimush is the ysod from a yid and this way was the chasem sofer’s derch halimed
yic: Maybe Chochom can see if the Satmar Yeshiva is more his thing.
Lol, I guess his Satmar curriculum didn’t include English.
Re: Satmar English curriculum. Read the book “Teacha (stories from a yeshiva)” by Gerry Albarelli.
It recounts the years Mr. Albarelli spent teaching English at the Satmar cheder in Williamsburg during the early 80s.
You can check the book out of the Brooklyn Public Library.
I heard a story that when the Satmar Rebbe hired the English principal for the Yeshiva, he told him if you teach them kach v’kach secular studies your salary is $40,000. If you teach the students more than kach v’kach secular studies, your salary is $35,000! (The numbers aren’t exact, but the point is.)
the reason ehy yeshivos in EY go faster is because theyvce never heard of cris colombus and cant name four elements on the periodic table. their entire curriculum is learning. youre coming from high school. your computer literate and just finished regents. maybe going slow will clear your head of 10 years of limudei chol.
first seder should not be about covering ground.Its for a guy to learn how to learn so that when he’s older he can learn well by himself.As for second seder in chofetz chaim plenty of guys cover a lot of ground and in one branch 6 guys finished maseches gittin this year gemara rashi tosafos and doing quite a few mefarshim which is pretty good granted they did some of the blatt outside of seder
let me guess which cc branch? brooklyn
mexipal-nope it was not brooklyn
chacham.. who is talking about knowing english or not i m talking about derch halimed and anyway why dos a chsidsh guy have to know english satmer have gnieg rich pepole with out knowing english but if you dont like satmer then say something about the derch halimed not about knowing english or not
if u learn 20 blatt a zman how much other then gefes how much can you learn?
please answer i would like ideas (specially for kidushin)
i’m surprised it wasn’t brooklyn. well cc did have a push to finish gitin
move to ey. you just wanna taynah. nothings gonna actually answer you if your set on moving faster unless you do (and get the hanhala mad) or move. your not gonna get a constructive, satisfying answer. fartig
Anyone on this thread from Passaic?
Good for you!
Chacham: What are you guys learning?
Hi Chacham, what yeshiva is this. Also would you know of an american kolel or yeshiva in jerusalem where the focus is Bekuis?
The Maharal actually says exactly what OnTheBall said earlier, that knowing how doesn’t make you a Talmid Chacham. I was really surprised to see someone question that. Like a Maggid Shiur of mind once said, being able to steal doesn’t make you a thief.
“Being able to steal doesn’t make you a thief”. But you can’t steal unless you know how, obviously. Being able to learn doesn’t mean that you do learn, but somebody who isn’t mechunech in darkei halimud has very little hope of learning either. He can try – he can sit and finish lots of shas, and be able to translate it, but if you can’t understand anything then you aint learning either.
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Abaye: Anybody who doesn’t know R’ Yitzchoks Halocho is not a Gavra Rabbah? If it would catch him in his logical prowess, you’re right, but catching him out on his knowledge is irrelevant.
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People are scared of learning fast because their rosh yeshiva has impressed them with the fact that they don’t know what they’re taking about.
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