August 16, 2011 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1093296
I just started reading this thread and scrolled through all messages until I finally saw it. Did the OP in all his research look into “Choftez Chaim” or any of its branches? Despite all the jokes about getting out of the box, the answers to why one lion is smiling and one not, in bekius seder they cover quite a lot of ground. In my 1st year in the beis medrash when the yeshiva was learning Baba Basra, the “quota” for my chavrusa and I was 1 blatt a week when we started in Elul and was was up to 2 blatt a week by the time the zman finished end of tammuz. 3 years later we were up to 4 blatt a week. The “quota” as we called it was based on the level of the chavrusas, the perek/daf being learned with input from one of the Rabbeim. Depending on the massechta you could cover 75-100 blatt a year, easily.August 16, 2011 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1093297
I am not looking for a bikius seder. I do that on my own. I want a place where I can pick up the mehalach of learning 25 blatt biyun in one zmanAugust 16, 2011 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1093298
In CC, you will learn how to learn 75 blatt in a zman. That is what bekius seder is for. You think they just “daven up” daf after daf to cover ground? Look into it.August 16, 2011 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1093299
When its time head to brisk or r’ tzvi. they do about twenty something blatt first seder in a winter zman.August 16, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1093300
Chacham, it’s possible this isn’t your type of place, but you could probably find a shiur in Ner Yisroel that would go at that pace.August 16, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1093301
4 blatt a week for cc is a little too much (especially if you do first time second time) but 2 blatt a week is averageAugust 16, 2011 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1093302
i am the regular lakewood bachurAugust 17, 2011 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1093303
Mexipal. 2 blatt a week in eizehu neshech, sure. Depending on the massechta, perek and sugyos, 4 blatt a week is also very doable, even “1st time 2nd time”. Of course, the ones doing the learning are also taken into account. There are those who will always be a little better and those a little worse.August 17, 2011 12:44 am at 12:44 am #1093304mw13Participant
Really? No external links even to shiurim?August 17, 2011 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1093305
” Of course, the ones doing the learning are also taken into account. There are those who will always be a little better and those a little worse.”
true but most guys do two blatt a week.August 17, 2011 3:10 am at 3:10 am #1093306
I don’t know what most guys do or did. When we learned kiddushin, my chavrusa and I did 4 blatt a week in the last 2 perakim. At any rate, at 2 blatt a week one will cover substantially more that 20 blatt a year. To the OP, I still think he should look into CC. He will learn how to learn 2 blatt a week.August 17, 2011 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1093307HaKatanParticipant
It’s also important to differentiate between the different types of “going slow” as I can’t believe gedolim are against learning pshat, whatever it takes this generation to do so.August 17, 2011 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1093308
no offense to everone, but i think that a double standard is in place here. everyone here is ready to shrei chay vikayum about what certai gedolim said about derech halimud. (fine thats ok- even though i pointed out b4 that the gedolei north america have a way bigger haracha of R shach then we do and theyre still doing it so perhaps they might thought this through b4 allowing the masses to learn like this) its funny to point out that other things gedolim said seem to get brushed aside. i like to illustrate with the Chazon Ish ztl. Everyone knows the famous maaseh of how a top brain surgeon couldnt figure out a complicated surgery and when the Chazon Ish was asked he gave a simple solution that astonished all doctors involved. people hear this one and say wow ruach hakodesh, thats a gadol, he mustve been something. then they hear that the same man said that giyus bonos and sherut leumi is literally yaharog vi’al ya’avor and the response is..ya…well…he was extreme…we dont think so..etc. If you want to change systems and turn over north america(which im not saying is a bad thing) then dont pick the shittos that fit your agenda, rather, adhere to everything R shach said. and good luck with that, its not so easyAugust 17, 2011 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1093309
TOI- Do you mean if I do not follow every shittah of Rav Shach it does not apply to me if he says I will be an Am haaretz? He only said it about to people who follow every one of his shitos?
If rav Shach Reb Michel Yehuda Rav Shteinman Rav Mattisyahu Solomon Reb Chaim Kanievski and Rav Shmuel Auerbach etc. and many other gedolim who were/are the gedolei hador hold one way unanimously than yes you could follow them since chances are they have a very good idea in what they are saying. You make it sound like rav shach is a daas yochid who gets brushed aside unless you wwere his talmid muvhak. aderabba- maybe if you want to go slow you can only go so slow if you follow the shitos of the American Roshei yeshivos on everything.
My point is that in America you have 40 yeshivos learning slow. In Ertez Yisrael most learn faster. NOw MOST gedolim not just rav shach are against the way they learn in America. Everyone answers this is the only way to get bachurim to learn in this generation and it is sort of a horaas sha’ah. so 40 out of 40 yeshivos are doing so. My complaint is this horaas shaah is not a davar hashava lchol nefesh. In my shiur of seventeen bachurim, 3 of them want to go faster. So if it is not a davar hashaveh lacol there has to be a place for the exceptions. My complaint is the American Mehalach has a complete monopoly of every yeshiva. Why can’t anybody care about the shita of the gedolei hador and have a yeshiva for those that want to learn faster? I am not brushing aside the other gedolim I am merely saying there is obviously another mehalach other than the american mehalach so why is there no yeshiva for that mehalach?August 17, 2011 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1093310
when youre a little older youll understand a little better what your rabbeim wanted from you and why it made sense. i understand your taaneh. give it time and keep at it and keep chazering. learn b’kius on your own (not shidchiyus- r shach in michtavim shrays against that,too) and learn seriously. youll remember and youll be surprised how much ground you can coverAugust 17, 2011 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1093311
toi- you did not address my point at all. my shayala is if there is more then one mehalach in learning why does one get the monopoly?August 17, 2011 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1093312on the ballParticipant
Because on a superficial level Iyun separates those that ‘can learn’ over those that can’t. So everyone including the RYs themselves want to excel at this particular aspect of learning. Imagine a Yeshiva that excels in Bekius rather than Iyun. It would simply have a name for catering for less gifted students that can’t handle deep stuff like R’ Boruch Ber or R’ Shimon.
Like I said in my previous post, if you have a good head you can excel in Iyun pretty quickly with not much effort. However to become proficient in Shas takes long and tedious hard work. And our generation is not geared up for that. The accolades don’t come quick enough. That’s my humble opinion.August 17, 2011 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1093313
cuz clearly thats the north american mehalach. thought that was understoodAugust 17, 2011 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #1093314PeerimsameachParticipant
Chacham- you write like someone I know. Are you from Passaic?August 17, 2011 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1093315
yeah toi if so you should have never posted in the first place. I already know that that is what every yeshiva does. I wrote that in the first post. My question was why is this . You answered since it is clearly the mehalach. That is not an answer to my question. It is an explanation of my question.August 17, 2011 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1093316
no I am not from Passaic. I wrote earlier I am from Lakewood. But somebody I know discovered me yestersay and asked me if my name is Chacham from yeshiva world coffee room because he saw something there about derech halimud that is my kind of thing to say.August 18, 2011 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1093317yicMember
the satmer rabbi r’yoel system in his yishva was 2 blot gmura rashi tosfis mharshu rosh and mharshel this was the eyun and afternoon was shelchen urich and then bkeius was a blot a day gmure rashi tosfis and evry week evry buchir have to finish chimush rashi and was on top of and farhert it evry week a buchir that didn’t know chimush he didn’t farhet him gmure he use to say chimush is the ysod from a yid and this way was the chasem sofer’s derch halimedAugust 18, 2011 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1093318CheinMember
yic: Maybe Chochom can see if the Satmar Yeshiva is more his thing.August 18, 2011 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1093319
yic- what language is that?August 18, 2011 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1093320
Lol, I guess his Satmar curriculum didn’t include English.August 18, 2011 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1093321
Re: Satmar English curriculum. Read the book “Teacha (stories from a yeshiva)” by Gerry Albarelli.
It recounts the years Mr. Albarelli spent teaching English at the Satmar cheder in Williamsburg during the early 80s.
You can check the book out of the Brooklyn Public Library.August 18, 2011 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1093322TomcheMember
I heard a story that when the Satmar Rebbe hired the English principal for the Yeshiva, he told him if you teach them kach v’kach secular studies your salary is $40,000. If you teach the students more than kach v’kach secular studies, your salary is $35,000! (The numbers aren’t exact, but the point is.)August 18, 2011 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1093323
the reason ehy yeshivos in EY go faster is because theyvce never heard of cris colombus and cant name four elements on the periodic table. their entire curriculum is learning. youre coming from high school. your computer literate and just finished regents. maybe going slow will clear your head of 10 years of limudei chol.August 18, 2011 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1093324Boris KarshinaParticipant
first seder should not be about covering ground.Its for a guy to learn how to learn so that when he’s older he can learn well by himself.As for second seder in chofetz chaim plenty of guys cover a lot of ground and in one branch 6 guys finished maseches gittin this year gemara rashi tosafos and doing quite a few mefarshim which is pretty good granted they did some of the blatt outside of sederAugust 18, 2011 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #1093325
let me guess which cc branch? brooklynAugust 18, 2011 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1093326
Toi- sorry to disappoint you but my yeshiva (unfortunately for me) did not have limudei chol.August 19, 2011 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1093327Boris KarshinaParticipant
mexipal-nope it was not brooklynAugust 19, 2011 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1093328yicMember
chacham.. who is talking about knowing english or not i m talking about derch halimed and anyway why dos a chsidsh guy have to know english satmer have gnieg rich pepole with out knowing english but if you dont like satmer then say something about the derch halimed not about knowing english or notAugust 19, 2011 1:57 am at 1:57 am #1093329
is no undrstnad whaz syin bout dereks limud if no writo in english. that is allAugust 19, 2011 2:04 am at 2:04 am #1093330sifsei chachamimParticipant
if u learn 20 blatt a zman how much other then gefes how much can you learn?
please answer i would like ideas (specially for kidushin)August 19, 2011 2:39 am at 2:39 am #1093331
look in a sefer like shiurei reb shmuel. see how much he did. yet he learnrd 35 blatt a zman.August 19, 2011 3:00 am at 3:00 am #1093332
i’m surprised it wasn’t brooklyn. well cc did have a push to finish gitinAugust 19, 2011 8:49 am at 8:49 am #1093333
move to ey. you just wanna taynah. nothings gonna actually answer you if your set on moving faster unless you do (and get the hanhala mad) or move. your not gonna get a constructive, satisfying answer. fartigAugust 19, 2011 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1093334PeerimsameachParticipant
Anyone on this thread from Passaic?August 19, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1093335
toi- I do not just want to complain . All I want is an answer why nobody in America pays any heed to the words of the gedolim. Going to Eretz Yisrael is not an answer to that question. But either way I b`etzem will be very happy to go learn in Eretz Yisrael, just I am only going in to First year.October 10, 2011 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1093336
So Baruch Hashem I found a yeshiva in the East Coast that learns faster with a chashuver Rosh Hayeshiva. It was not one of the above mentioned, being that the yeshiva barely existed. This Elul zman got us from 2a-7b which is more than I did last winter zman were I was.October 10, 2011 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1093337
Good for you!October 10, 2011 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1093338Sam2Participant
Chacham: What are you guys learning?October 11, 2011 4:49 am at 4:49 am #1093339
sam- NedarimJuly 8, 2015 2:04 am at 2:04 am #1093340nishakMember
Hi Chacham, what yeshiva is this. Also would you know of an american kolel or yeshiva in jerusalem where the focus is Bekuis?July 24, 2015 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1093341ChortkovParticipant
The Maharal actually says exactly what OnTheBall said earlier, that knowing how doesn’t make you a Talmid Chacham. I was really surprised to see someone question that. Like a Maggid Shiur of mind once said, being able to steal doesn’t make you a thief.
“Being able to steal doesn’t make you a thief”. But you can’t steal unless you know how, obviously. Being able to learn doesn’t mean that you do learn, but somebody who isn’t mechunech in darkei halimud has very little hope of learning either. He can try – he can sit and finish lots of shas, and be able to translate it, but if you can’t understand anything then you aint learning either.July 24, 2015 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1093342ChortkovParticipant
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Abaye: Anybody who doesn’t know R’ Yitzchoks Halocho is not a Gavra Rabbah? If it would catch him in his logical prowess, you’re right, but catching him out on his knowledge is irrelevant.
??? ?? ?????July 27, 2015 12:01 am at 12:01 am #1093343pcozMember
People are scared of learning fast because their rosh yeshiva has impressed them with the fact that they don’t know what they’re taking about.
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