Future of Israel's Orthodox Jews

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  • #608720

    thegra
    Member

    Do you think the new political system in Israel without orthodox Jews will be permanent or will it soon change?

  • #941222

    abra cadabra
    Participant

    Who cares? The chiloni government cannot shove change upon us and actually expect us to change how the chiloni government wants us to change.

    We will maintain all our current lifestyle as advised by our gedolim not as directed or pushed for by the government.

  • #941223

    playtime
    Member

    It must change eventually.

    The Frum population is growing by leaps and bounds.

  • #941224

    besalel
    Participant

    There are at least 18 orthodox jews in the government. They are:

    Zeev Elkin

    David Rotem

    Tzipi Hotlevy

    Moshe Zalman Feiglin

    Shai Piron

    Dov Lipman

    Uri Yehuda Ariel

    Eli Ben-Dahan

    Naftali Bennett

    Yoni Chetboun

    Zvulun Kalfa

    Shuli Moalem-Refaeli

    Uri Orbach

    Ayelet Shaked

    Nissan Slomiansky

    Orit Strock

    Avi Wortzman

    Mordhay Yogev

  • #941225

    abra cadabra
    Participant

    You gotta be kidding. Most of those are hardly Orthodox.

    Ayelet Shaked? She’s pure chiloni.

  • #941226

    akuperma
    Participant

    1. Actually some counts estimate over 30 Shomer Shabbos MKs, and a noticable part of all the anti-religious parties are Shomer Shabbos. This is a good sign. The fact that the leading enemy of the yeshiva wears a yarmulke is a clear improvement.

    2. The conscription crisis will disappear over time. The anti-zionists will refuse regardless, and the Israelis will back off from being seen as persecuting peaceful religious fanatics. Public opinion is more concerned with getting hareidim in the “workplace” and that can best be accomplished by ending conscription (in which case all those who want to be Baal ha-battim but refuse to serve in the army will leave the yeshiva and get “on the books” jobs).

    3. The hilonim are dying out since they enjoy material things, and that discourages them from having kids. We are doomed to take over.

    Also, Hareidim can deal with the Arabs more realistically since we can make concessions that are meaningful to the Arabs whereas the hilonim can only offer land which is irrelevant. We can compromise on sovereignity and make Israel more of a middle eastern country, and the hilonim can’t. Part of the increased fanaticism of the hilonim is since they have “read the writing on the wall” and realize they have no future basic on demographic factors that are not irreversible.

  • #941227

    besalel
    Participant

    i think we begin a very slippery slope when we start judging how “orthodox” someone is and if we were to put ourselves to such a test who knows how we will fare. there will always be someone who thinks you are not orthodox enough. and some people are openly one way but secretly another so who knows! in any event, some of them are chareidi, such as Dov Lipman and chareidi zionist such as eli ben dahan.

  • #941228

    besalel
    Participant

    Ayelet Shaked was mistakenly named on my list.

  • #941229

    abra cadabra
    Participant

    Lipman is Daati. (And anti-Chareidi.)

  • #941230

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There will be change, there already is massive poverty in the Charedi communities.

    As the Charedi communities become a larger and larger percentage of the population there will be fewer and fewer people earning money to pay the taxes that pay for yeshivas

    The Charedim will be forced to go to work and when they realize they cant get very high paying jobs to support the large families because of limited education they will be forced to change their secular education bans

  • #941231

    thegra
    Member

    I think we can at least draw the line at being mechalel shabbos befarhesia.

  • #941232

    rebdoniel
    Member

    What a chiddush- that there are yeshivos, and frum MK’s who aren’t Haredim.

  • #941233

    playtime
    Member

    It should be Hiddush and Yeshivot, rebdoniel. you’re slipping.

    tsssk. tsssk.

  • #941234

    About Time
    Participant

    “i think we begin a very slippery slope when we start judging how “orthodox” someone is and if we were to put ourselves to such a test who knows how we will fare”

    Negative. Negative.

    Don’t even think of trying that center left croc.

    There is clear definition of who is Orthodox.

    Personal observance is secondary. (Moses Mendelson was Orthodox? Shaul Lieberman? Avraham Burg?)

    Feiglin, Katzele, and Ben-Dahan are Orthodox. Irrespective of disagreement of the application of certain mitzvos. The rest are either half or beyond the spectrum.

  • #941235

    yytz
    Member

    About Time: Huh? Who made you the arbiter of the definition of Orthodoxy? Dati leumi (which includes Feiglin, by the way) are Orthodox. R’ Lipman is totally Orthodox, either frum-but-not-yeshivish or “left-wing yeshivish.” R’ Piron is a Rosh Yeshivah. Just because you disagree with their political opinions or their Zionism doesn’t make them non-Orthdox.

  • #941236

    Dov Lipman is a rav that got smicha from Ner Yisrael. He is most certainly charedi.

  • #941237

    yytz
    Member

    A good article on this issue from Cross-Currents:

    The Coalition Plan For Charedim

    By Yitzchok Adlerstein, on March 20th, 2013

    This did not happen. Like the plan or not, it does show some serious thought and consideration.

    An exception, apparently, is that even immediately, anyone over the age of 22 is free to enter the workforce, even if he did not do any army service. We can anticipate that many will take advantage of this offer, and begin the slow process of having Israeli charedim accept what many, if not enough of us, do in the States: that there is room for both learners and earners.

    The school issue is more ticklish from the standpoint of the extremely anti-secular community in Israel. The government is demanding two and a half hours a day of core curriculum instruction. Schools which do not provide it will now be denied funds. Again, this becomes a funding crisis rather than grounds for a holy war against the nouveau-Czarist agents set to padlock the doors of the chadorim.

    Again, it could have been handled more stupidly.

    Many in the States (depending on where they daven) will be hard-pressed to find these measures as objectionable as people in Israel. Many undoubtedly will join the mourning, but others will daven that these measures will be successful in solving the growing problem of poverty and the burden that the charedi community is perceived to place on unwilling Israelis. Many will look expectantly to the building of a society in which the Torah community is seen as having the best and most attractive approach to living a meaningful life, attentive to all normal human needs.

    Another danger is more insidious. The choosing of the 1800 yearly exemptions may go the same way as the reaction to the hated Cantonist draft of the Czars. Some rabbonim at the time excelled in their fairness in guarding the vulnerable, like the orphan children who were targets for the khappers (kidnappers paid off by the wealthy to secure replacements for their own children to escape the draft.) Others were not effective. If Roshei Yeshiva protect their own children and sons-in-law from service, or if there is significant infighting and no objective standard in choosing the 1800 elite on the basis of merit, it will bring down the charedi world faster than any universal draft could.

    We all need much siyata deShamaya in charting our reactions in the next weeks and the course in the upcoming four years.

  • #941238

    akuperma
    Participant

    To the person who said “The Charedim will be forced to go to work and when they realize they cant get very high paying jobs to support the large families because of limited education they will be forced to change their secular education bans”

    Also Hareidim dress funny. Also it is hard to do office politics (especially for the women since office politics, especially for a woman, involves showing off something other than how properly dressed she is). Also halacha seriously restricts many lines of work, and actually penalizes honest behavior (law and finance come to mind). Not being able to go to goyish restaurants (not just a matter of kashrus – Hooters, as an example, is treff even if it has a hecksher) is a problem since much business is done over meals. And then there is a problem that most hareidim place an emphasis of learning, mitsvos and family – none of which are really compatible with making it in the secular world. If a Hareidi needs to learn a goyish subject, they can and do. School is a social institution, but it isn’t where you go to learn things. Learning is what you do yourself.

    The principle economic problem for hareidim in Israel is that there is law prohibiting Jews from working unless they complete army service, and the army remains a hostile environment from someone who puts Torah ahead of anything else (remember, the more “modern” put defense of the land as a highest priority – a not too subtle difference). Eventually the Israelis will be forced to decriminalize “on the books” employment for hareidim, and the hareidi community will boom.

  • #941239

    Wolfman
    Member

    The typical, rational mindset convinces Westerners that they “can deal with the Arabs more realistically.” The Arab world does not share that European sentiment. The Eastern mindset follows different rules. Arab agreements are temporary and intended to lull their enemies into a false sense of security. No one, regardless of religiosity or political persuasion is able to “deal with the Arabs more realistically.”

  • #941240

    charliehall
    Member

    “Moses Mendelson was Orthodox?”

    Mendelssohn’s contemporaries Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rabbi Akiva Eiger took him seriously as an Orthodox scholar (and argued on his conclusions). After his death people used his name to justify things he would never have endorsed. And he would have been absolutely horrified at the actions of his children after his death.

    ” Shaul Lieberman?”

    His contemporary Rav Hutner tried to recruit him to Chaim Berlin. Another contemporary Rav Soloveitchik was willing to serve on a Beit Din with him, and praised his Tosefta commentary. (Yesterday was his 30th Yahretzeit.)

    ” Avraham Burg?”

    He was Orthodox but he may no longer be.

  • #941241

    rebdoniel
    Member

    The Grush Lieberman’s Tosefta Kipeshuta is in every yeshiva library.

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe held by him, and so did the Hazon Ish, a cousin of his.

    He resisted feminism, his followers are now within Orthodoxy, and for as long as he was at JTS, they had a mechitza.

  • #941242

    mdd
    Member

    AKUPERMA!!!So what in the world do you say??? That Chareidim can’t work and must be supported by everybody else any place they live? Are you for real?!?!?!?!?

  • #941243

    takahmamash
    Participant

    abra cadabra:

    You gotta be kidding. Most of those are hardly Orthodox.

    I’m sorry, tell us again why you are allowed to pass judgement on other people?

    About Time:

    There is clear definition of who is Orthodox.

    Maybe there is, but again, it’s not your place to judge.

  • #941244

    shmoolik 1
    Member

    After the the passing of a new draft/public service law and the elections for the chief rabbinate and council are over both Shas and Agudah will join the govt. gleaning whatever crumbs that are left they have no choice or they lose their voters support “JOBS” and power is the key to political survival in Israel/

  • #941245

    Leyzer
    Member

    abra cadabra said:

    ”Lipman is Daati. (And anti-Chareidi.)”

    I apologise for seeming pedantic but I must correct you here.

    The word is Dati – as in the adjective for Dat/Das (=torah), not Daati which might mean ‘intelligent’ if it was a word at all, which I am not sure.

    This simple error alone leads me to view your opinion with amusement.

  • #941246

    Leyzer
    Member

    akuperma said:

    ”The principle economic problem for hareidim in Israel is that there is law prohibiting Jews from working unless they complete army service”

    Do you seriously believe this?

    I was sure that the principle problem was an institutionalised aversion to doing anything other than learning Torah – even if at the expense of others who are forced to support you when you come abroad collecting?

    The stream of collectors in London is rapidly increasing to the point of often 7/8 every Shacharis, most of whom carry a certificate stating that they are collecting for ”debts” (not medical emergencies etc which economics are not to blame for).

    Many people here question if this system is sustainable in the long run, apart from the fact that the UK recession means people are less able to support their Israeli brethren. Not to mention the many Aniyai Ircho.

    Things have to change, regardless of the draft situation.

  • #941247

    About Time
    Participant

    yytz and takahmamash

    Give your defintion

    (We might be a different denomination)

    This world has a purpose,

    do you believe that?

  • #941248

    About Time
    Participant

    Mendelsson cultivated a perception of himself and acted the part accordingly.

    We know now from his private letters (research by R’ Schwab) that the rot originated with him.

    Even in his own terms, he was less Torah, more Kant

    cf. Avos 1:3.

    The Chasam Sofer saw right through it (which was an element in the detestation of him by the maskilim and the cynicism of their modox successors.)

    “Shaul Lieberman?”

    Revisionism

    Eh?

    “R’ Hutner tried to recruit him” to save him. He warned Lieberman that if he stays in JTS, he will be denounced on every possible occasion.

    R’ Moshe Feinstein refused to grant recognition to his gittin.

    (Then again R’ M. Feinstein wouldn’t recognize Rackman’s either)

    Their personal observance nevertheless was more puntilious than some of the aforementioned names cited.

    As aside, arch zionist Rabbi Shalom Gold, Rabbi Emeritus of Y.I. of Har Nof, told me personaly half a decade ago, that seruga wearing Elazar Stern is an unqualified “Rasha merusha”.

    I can assume your desire to make the proof yet stronger.

  • #941249

    About Time
    Participant

    typo

    punctilious

    personally

  • #941250

    mdd
    Member

    Takamamash, not judging is a Christian virtue. By Yidden, we judge — just according to certain rules.Look in the “Chofets Chaim”.

  • #941251

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Lieberman actually discussed forming a joint bet din, but the proposal failed due to anxieties within the RCA and even the RA, as well.

  • #941252

    Sam2
    Member

    About Time: I do not know if it’s true that R’ Moshe wouldn’t Kasher his Gittin. But if it is, it’s because of his attempt to solve the “Agunah crisis”, not because of anything personal. R’ Lieberman may have overreached on that one, but it doesn’t make him any less of a Talmid Chacham or less Orthodox. There are Orthodox Rabbonim who have done things with much less Halachic basis than he had on this issue.

  • #941253

    writersoul
    Member

    About Time: There is clear definition of who is Orthodox.

    takahmamash: Maybe there is, but again, it’s not your place to judge.

    So what is it?

    And what is the clear definition of who is charedi? Whether they agree with other people who call themselves charedi?

  • #941254

    yytz
    Member

    About time: You’re the one trying to exclude people who are commonly regarded as Orthodox, so I think you should be the one giving a definition.

    Of course the world has a purpose. You really think dati leumi or MO don’t believe that?

    Mdd: Not so sure about that; see Avos 1:6 and 2:5. It’s a Jewish value too, even if there may be exceptions.

  • #941255

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The term Orthodox is a social and cultural grouping; a way of describing a certain social group.

    That is, we may share many characteristics, and those characteristics are useful to predict what members of the group do, or who will be a member of the group but none manage to define the group.

    Being shomer shabbos publicly is not a sufficient characteristic. There are conservative jews who keep shabbos publicly. Keeping shabbos publicly is probably a necessary characteristic, but privately is not.

    Being presumed a kosher eid is also not a necessary characteristic. I posit that I would consider someone orthodox even who was a known child molester–if he davened in my shul and sent his kids to my school etc.

    It is just a social grouping; people are orthodox who identify and act as part of the group.

    At some point, there could feasibly be a split among the group who currently is pretty much one large group, and it will become two separate social groupings. When that happens, probably one of them will be given a new name (I propose: Open Orthodox, to signify that they want to pretend to be Orthodox, but don’t feel bound by any of the Torah’s rules besides the social justice ones which they invented by pulling out of a horse’s tuches.)

    So that’s why attempts to define are futile and irrelevant–the question is only whether they are considered part of the social group. I don’t know enough about the israeli politicians but Saul Lieberman (he should rot) was certainly not Orthodox even though he presumptively was better at keeping the torah than me besides for the dinnim of being a meisis umeidiach, which I am better at.

  • #941256

    yytz
    Member

    Shaul Lieberman is a red herring: he was the head of a Conservative rabbinical school. As far as I know, none of the Orthodox MKs mentioned above have any association whatsoever with the Conservative movement, which in any case barely exists in Israel. I’ve seen no evidence that even the left wing of the dati leumi community has a non-Orthodox hashkafa (such as denying Oral-Torah-from-Sinai) or halachic methodology.

  • #941257

    Health
    Participant

    PBA -“(I propose: Open Orthodox, to signify that they want to pretend to be Orthodox, but don’t feel bound by any of the Torah’s rules besides the social justice ones which they invented by pulling out of a horse’s tuches.)”

    They already have a term for this and it’s called -Orthopraxy!

  • #941258

    I agree with PBA; Orthodox is more of a social definition than a religious one. In the memorable words of R’ Gifter: “I am not an Orthodox Jew. I am a Torah Jew.”

  • #941259

    thegra
    Member

    “Starting four years from now, only 1800 top learners will be exempted”

    That scares me. We all know that “top learner” is very arbitrary. At only 18 years old, the only thing people will be measuring is raw IQ, like a college SAT. It will not measure yiras shamayim. Some people only start to bloom later in life (at least mid 20’s). With such a close knit society- who your parents are and what connections you have is going to be a deciding factor as well.

    Other posters, please try to limit your posts to the topic at hand.

  • #941260

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    We NEVER has mass Kollel learning, In Europe ONLY the top learners kept in yeshiva, the rest went to work.

    Its only the welfare state that has allowed Kollel to exist, get rid of the welfare and kollel will cease to exist as it cannot be paid for.

  • #941261

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Actually some counts estimate over 30 Shomer Shabbos MKs, and a noticable part of all the anti-religious parties are Shomer Shabbos. This is a good sign. The fact that the leading enemy of the yeshiva wears a yarmulke is a clear improvement.

    ??????? ??? ????

  • #941262

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We NEVER has mass Kollel learning, In Europe ONLY the top learners kept in yeshiva, the rest went to work.

    I love how you only dislike changes when it increases yidishkeit, but anything which decreases yidishkeit is good adapting to the times. I’d like to see the gehenom I’ll get from learning too much torah.

    Anyway, I figured out the real pshat. And I’ll debut it in a new thread. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-real-pshat-in-universal-kollel

  • #941263

    thegra
    Member

    “We NEVER had mass Kollel learning, In Europe ONLY the top learners kept in yeshiva, the rest went to work.”

    I am not saying you are wrong, but can you please provide a source?

    I personally do not understand the concept of “top learners”. I have never met a “top learner”. All the guys who take their learning seriously are “top learners”. If you want to go back in time why stop at Europe? Why not go to eretz yisroel and bavel where all the “top learners” also worked.

    What comes first the chicken or the egg? Do you not have to work because you are a top learner or are you a top learner because you don’t have to work?

  • #941264

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When your kids are screaming because they are hungry, When the Power Company cuts off the Heat and Electric because they werent paid.

    When the Creditors call you at all hours of the night demanding to be paid because your Visa and MC are Maxed out and Late payments

    When the Landlord threatens to evict you for non-payment of rent

    Not to mention your wife no matter how much an Ashes Chayil cannot but any food or wear anything that isnt ragged and torn, how much she will be upset

    If that is Gan Eden…Id like to know what Gehenom is

  • #941265

    mdd
    Member

    Yytz, see sefer “Chofets Chaim”.

  • #941266

    writersoul
    Member

    thegra: The ones who learned were the ones who showed their brilliance young and got sponsors. You know the famous story with the grocer who sponsored three yeshivah bochurim who turned out to be three gedolim of the next generation (I think one was R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky)? The fact is that without the sponsorship, who knows what would’ve happened today- and who knows how many gedolim there were in potential who weren’t sponsored and did whatever they did with their lives. Most people weren’t so lucky.

    Actually, purely from a scientific point of view, it would be an interesting experiment- If we had the data of how many boys there were at a given time period who could have gone to yeshivah, how many did, and then how many of those became rabbanim and marbitzei Torah, and then took similar statistics today and see how they measure up. Not meant to be pro- or anti-anything yet- just genuinely curious, because I can see it working either way.

  • #941267

    rebdoniel
    Member

    The Grush Lieberman never once denied any of the ikkarei haemunah.

    And if he was so bad, than how did he maintain a kesher with Rav Soloveitchik, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Hutner, and scores of other gedolim?

    His Tosefta Kifeshuta and Yerushalmi Kifeshuta are found on the shelves of any serious talmid chacham and are found in the libraries of many yeshivot.

    I am fortunate to have many of his students as teachers.

  • #941268

    kwaiker
    Member

    Those rabbonim were in contact with Mr. Lieberman only before he went off the derech and became an apikorus by joining the Conservative movement.

    We also had a Kohen Gadol who was the gadol hador until he was 90 years old when he became a tzeduki, thus an apikorus, and lost everything he earned for 90 years of being a tzadik earning himself instead a place in gehenim.

  • #941269

    rebdoniel
    Member

    He actually never joined the movement. Hhe served as chancellor at its seminary. 2 different things. There are Orthodox scholars who teach in universities and non-Orthodox institutions. If anything, they have a good hashpa’ah on those who are not yet frum.

    Regardless, my hope is that R’ Stav is elected Chief Rabbi, and I think that ultimately, the humbling that the Haredi parties will experience will do them good in the long run.

  • #941270

    “Regardless, my hope is that R’ Stav is elected Chief Rabbi, and I think that ultimately, the humbling that the Haredi parties will experience will do them good in the long run.”

    What does that have to do with anything else said on this topic?

  • #941271

    kwaiker
    Member

    What difference is it if Mr. Stav becomes chief rabbi? Mr. Goren was a previous chief rabbi, and being a chief rabbi doesn’t kasher or make someone more acceptable.

  • #941272

    rebdoniel
    Member

    If a moderate is elected to the Rabbanut, than much needed changes can be made to the administrative positions undertaken.

  • #941273

    daniela
    Member

    “I think that ultimately, the humbling that the Haredi parties will experience will do them good in the long run.”

    While I often vehemently disagree with you, I must say I appreciate you do not misrepresent or hide your outlook.

  • #941274

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I will repeat, the Chief Rabbi is not for the Charedim, they have their own Rabbanim, ie the Belz answer to the Belzer Rebbe, the Ger to the Gerrer Rebbe, the LItvish to Rav Shteinmen The Sefardic Charedim to Rav Yosef etc this wouldnt change no matter who is the chief Rabbi

    The Chief rabbi is for chilonim and deals with their religious issues and issues related to the government

  • #941275

    Sam2
    Member

    kwalker: “Mr.” Goren? That’s ridiculous. Arguing than those greater than you and not being necessarily right does not revoke one’s right to an opinion nor change the fact that he was a major Talmid Chacham.

  • #941276

    akuperma
    Participant

    “the humbling that the Haredi parties “

    It was more of being disabused of the notion that they can be Hareidi and Zionists. They learned that the Eidah Hareidis had been right all along. The two ideologies, Torah on the one hand, and belief in a nation-state with sovereignity over a piece of land on the other, and inherently incompatible. The two (really three, Degel ha-Torah and Agudah are separate but in alliance) parties (not to mention many YWN readers) had come to believe that Medinat Yisrael was good for the Jews and was a country that supported Torah and Mitsvos, even though the evidence is that the medinah has always had a policy of coercing Jews to go “off the derekh” and support for yeshivos was only a bargaining ploy to buy off those hareidim who were able to be bought off.

    The irony is, that real political considerations in Israel may force the zionists to abandon conscription. It is already unpopular with many hilonim and virtually all Arabs (who are about half of the goyim living in Israel, the rest are zionists with some Jewish ancestry but not halachic Jews), and the open resistance of the anti-zionist hareidim will be such that the zionists will end up abolishing conscription and switching to a professional army. Once that happens, hareidi baal ha-battim who are on the books as learning full time, will be able to be on the books working and the hareidim community will prosper. In addition, the army (and eventually Israeli at large, which copies the army) will finally make a good faith effort to accomodate hareidim in the military not as a result of political bargains but out of a need to recruit soldiers, and not just for a handful of “Jim Crow” units. So the future is actually quite bright for the hareidim community, once the tumult over the (to be soon realized as being futile) attempts to mass conscript yeshiva students are abandonned.

  • #941277

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I’d be more than happy if the Haredi parties disappeared and I’d be even happier if we had an influx of Haredim into the US, as long as they voted Republican.

  • #941278

    kwaiker
    Member

    Sam2: Moses Mendelssohn was also “a major talmid chochom”.

  • #941279

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    “Mr.” Goren? That’s ridiculous. Arguing than those greater than you and not being necessarily right does not revoke one’s right to an opinion nor change the fact that he was a major Talmid Chacham.

    I dunno Sam. I’m kind of uncomfortable calling him a Rabbi also. I know he knew lots of torah, but I sort of also associate the title with the responsibilities that come with it.

    And I kind of think that trading halacha for political position is not quite living up to that. For blazing sake, the guy ran for chief rabbi on a platform that he would be mattir mamzeirim, and then proceeded to do so after he won.

  • #941280

    Avi K
    Participant

    Kwaiker, you are guilty of hotzaat shem ra on many Jews and bizui talmid chacham (RAV Goren).

    Akuperma, there is no law that states that a person cannot work unless he has completed army service. If someone is not learning full-time (i.e. he is working) he is then subject to the draft assuming that he meets the age and medical requirements.

  • #941281

    akuperma
    Participant

    Avi K. If you have not served in the army and are officially listed as learning full time (in order to evade military service), you are legally prohibited from working “on the books”. Thus if you hold, as most hareidim do, that military service is contrary to halacha due to the hostility of ther army to a Torah-based lifestyle (which is the case except in some specialized units), you do not have the option of working outside the frum community (which is technically “off the books”). Obviously the army could stop persecuting orthodox Jews, but as the recent incident involving religious zionists who were expelled from officer training for refusing to listen to female singers (which is considered erotic and lewd in Jewish culture, some similar to if am American officer coruse required going to a burlesque show as a condition of commissioning), it is unlikely that the IDF will make the necessary adaptation to allow hareidim to serve (other than in the “Jim Crow” type units such as the “Nahal Hareidi” – i.e., the Israeli equivalent of the American colored infantry regiments or the British native regiments).

    However once hareidim resistance forces the zionists to end conscription, frum Jews will free to work, and the IDF if it needs manpower will be forced to see toleration of a Torah lifestyle in a positive light. Thus I am optimistic about the law term future.

  • #941282

    zdad:

    “I will repeat, the Chief Rabbi is not for the Charedim”

    True, but it’s still got to conform to the actual Halacha. There are only so many heterim you can use while still claiming to have an authentic, unbiased interpretation of the Halacha.

    Avi K:

    “there is no law that states that a person cannot work unless he has completed army service”

    Oh yes there is.

    akuperma:

    “However once hareidim resistance forces the zionists to end conscription”

    If only.

  • #941283

    charliehall
    Member

    “the Chief Rabbi is not for the Charedim”

    The charedi leaders didn’t think so the last chief rabbi election.

    ” the guy ran for chief rabbi on a platform that he would be mattir mamzeirim”

    No, he ran on a platform to matir one mamzer situation. And any rabbi who doesn’t attempt to do that in every mamzer situation he encounters is no rabbi.

    Interestingly, the method he used — pasuling a conversion — caused vehement objections from the same charedim who are pasuling conversions *en masse* today.

  • #941284

    charliehall
    Member

    “Those rabbonim were in contact with Mr. Lieberman only before he went off the derech and became an apikorus by joining the Conservative movement.”

    Not true. I have personally seen copies of some of the correspondence between Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l and Rav Lieberman z’tz’l from the 1950s when they were trying to set up a joint beit din across Orthodoxy and the Conservative movement. Interestingly, it was the Conservatives who backed out. The Rav would never have agreed to serve on a beit din with an apikorus!

  • #941285

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Not true. I have personally seen copies of some of the correspondence between Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l and Rav Lieberman z’tz’l from the 1950s when they were trying to set up a joint beit din across Orthodoxy and the Conservative movement. Interestingly, it was the Conservatives who backed out. The Rav would never have agreed to serve on a beit din with an apikorus!

    I never was a fan of the Rav.

    In any event, I’m not sure what that story is supposed to prove. I’m sure the Rav didn’t think that conservative judaism is legitimate.

  • #941286

    akuperma
    Participant

    rebdoniel: “I’d be even happier if we had an influx of Haredim into the US, as long as they voted Republican. “

    Hareidim, in America, tend to be solid Democrats. Have you noticed which party people like Dov Hikind caucus with? While we are social conservatives, we tend to believe the government should help the poor, and not worry too much about balancing the budget. Arguably they got the idea from us. The traditional conservative approach in America was that giving tsadakah would corrupt the poor, deprive them of self-respect, and discourage them for bettering themselves (thus welfare was only if you were down to the clothes on your back, and involving moving to the “poor house” or “debtors prison”).

    While the 21st century warrants a reconsideration of these positions (and I am much closer to Von Hayek than Lord Keynes), Hareidim tend to be natural leftists on economic matters (something that may prove very “interesting” in Eretz Yisrael in the immediate future, since that will facilitate allying with Labor and the Arabs against conscription).

  • #941287

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Charliehall,

    hat to break it to you but Goren was universally condemned by Rabbonim in eretz Yisroel from the Ultra-Orthodox to the Zionist excluding the Ultra Liberals.

    Perhaps not all used the Stiepler’s words (written in an easily obtained letter) in which he stated that Goren was a Chamor Noseh Seforim (Donkey carrying books) but condemned he was.

    In fact the despicable nature of his act was something that United Torah Jewry.

    And please don’t be intellectually dishonest enough to compare his “heter” to the modern day controversy.

    In his case the proper Geirus was proven beyond doubt and upheld by subsequent Batei Dinim.

    In the modern day cases, Zionist Rabbonim are the actual initiators of an investigation proving that there was real doubt as to the BD procedures and Kabbolas Mitzvos, enough doubt to have arguabley damaged the Chazaka of said BD hence throwing into question all conversions done by them.

  • #941289

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The GOP recently comissioned a report and why they lost.

    The haredim would be wise to act similary although not much research is given.

    You do not win friends and influence people when some members of your community spit and taunt 8 year old girls and then claim they are not part of the community and nothing can be done. People are excommunited or put in Siruv for many offenses in the Charedi community including having a TV or using the internet. Surely you and excommunicatre and throw the children out of school of Sikirim who spit and taunt 8 year old girls.

    You dont win friends when you call people Goyim, Haters of Torah etc who do not agree with you. Especially when their views are certainly within Halachic boundaries

    The Charedim taking over the Marriages did not only did not stop non-kosher marriages , it made many people who could have married Kosher decide to be married in Cyrpus because they did not want the red tape. 20% of all marriages in Israel occur in Cyprus.

    You dont take money from people and then act like you are doing a favor for them. Either dont take the money or at least be thankful for the generousity of other.

  • #941290

    Avi K
    Participant

    Kanoi, I don’t know where you live but b”H I have lived in Israel for 25 years and I know people who work even though they have not done the Army for various reasons (too old when they came, medical reasons etc.). I also know young men who worked before their actual enlistment date. Once more, an Israeli citizen who is not learning full time (or at least registered in a yeshiva/kollel and not caught) is eligible for the draft. Until and unless he actually enlists he may work for whomever will hire him. It could be that employers will not be quick to hire someone who may be drafted in the near future but

    that is their consideration. So far as the law is concerned they may hire them.

  • #941291

    abra cadabra
    Participant

    If they are under a draft order or if they were given a draft exemption for yeshiva, in either case they are legally precluded from being employed. Thus the inability to legally work on the books, due to the law.

  • #941292

    yichusdik
    Participant

    The future of Israel’s Orthodox Jews? Strong!

    How do I know? The answer is in Acco. In a fortress that used to be a British prison.

    In that fortress, there is a museum dedicated to those who gave their lives there al kiddush hashem for Am Yisroel and Eretz Yisroel. And in that museum, there is a pair of tfilin. They belonged to Dov Groner. Groner was executed by the British for his activities in the Irgun. He was and is an inspiration to generations of Israelis. He was a yeshiva educated frum Jew.

    He wasn’t ordered to leave a yeshiva, and he didn’t stop learning. He recognized his responsibility as a Jew in a Jewish land and he fought as well as learned.

    He lived and died for the future of Am Yisroel.

    The Israel that he helped to create has seen the most incredible expansion of Torah learning in the History of Am yisroel. Much of that has been subsidized by the state. A state interested in shmad doesn’t “waste” its precious resources on something it does not value.

    The Israel he helped create has yeshivos where talmidim and kollel learners reach heights of dveykus and amilus in Torah learning, and then get in a tank or a jeep and protect Jewish lives. They aren’t in bnei brak. they are in Maalot, Maaleh Adumim, Ashdod, Gush Etzion, and all over the country. A state interested in subjugating and persecuting Torah learners doesn’t train them to arms they may take up against their “persecution”.

    The Israel he helped create has had Prime Ministers who every motzei shabbos for decades brought the leading scholars from all fields together to study Torah in their households. A state interested in shmad isn’t led by those who value Torah.

    The Israel he helped create has members of Knesset who learn gemoro from the podium of the knesset chamber, and who establish shiurim weekly for the MK’s to be inspired by Torah. Decades of chareidi politicians never did this. It took a woman, from a party being accused of shmad, to bring more holiness to the manhigut of the country.

    The future is bright for those who actually care about the future, and who can think beyond their entitlements. It is an egregious, yet smug and self satisfying lie to insist that those who do not wear a particular levush or follow a particular hashkafic approach are not “frum”, are not “orthodox”.

    For the first time in almost 2000 years we can think as a nation and take up once again the responsibilities we have as a nation. For centuries we had no outlet for this aspect of our existence but now we do. It is the opportunity we have to demonstrate to the eibishter that we can be a complete people, not a collection of individuals doing individual mitzvos. That requires both more responsibility and more ahavas achim than many are used to. Israel is the place and now is the time to show HKBH what we can be.

    We can turn away from the challenge, turn inwards, if we choose to shut out the rest of the orthodox world who are moving towards that future. But if so, we should never again falsely claim that we look forward to the geulah. We will have refused to recognize its birth pangs. We will have made our insularity a liability.

    We are all, chareidi, dati, secular, all of us, better than that.

    May we all be zocheh to a complete geulah bimhero biyomenu. Chag kosher vesomeyach, everyone.

  • #941293

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yichus: the mental contortions it takes to be a religious zionist are so endearing.

  • #941294

    charliehall
    Member

    “I’m sure the Rav didn’t think that conservative judaism is legitimate.”

    He certainly did not. He refused to attend events in Conservative synagogues, and when a conservative rabbi who had been very supportive of his attempts to create the joint beit din with Rabbi Lieberman died, he stood outside the conservative synagogue in the rain to honor the rabbi rather than enter the building lest people think he would honor the Conservative movement.

  • #941295

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Yichusdik,

    I couldn’t agree more.

    Torat Yisrael, Medinat Yisrael, Am Yisrael.

  • #941296

    charliehall
    Member

    “Hareidim, in America, tend to be solid Democrats. Have you noticed which party people like Dov Hikind caucus with? While we are social conservatives, we tend to believe the government should help the poor, and not worry too much about balancing the budget.”

    Haredim mostly vote overwhelmingly Republican in national elections; the margins in the haredi areas in Brooklyn resemble those in rural Texas! Assemblyman Hikind is nowhere near as conservative as most of this constituents, and he has the support of another frum Jew, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, to remain a Democrat; as a Republican in the overwhelmingly Democratic New York State Assembly he’d have no ability to help constituents. Perhaps haredim in Brooklyn believe in helping the poor but they vote for candidates who want to reduce such help. And they may be social conservatives but they turned out in overwhelming margins to elect Mike Bloomberg.

  • #941297

    charliehall
    Member

    “Hayek”

    Hayek approved of mandatory universal health insurance. Today’s Republicans do not.

  • #941298

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Charlie: So then how am I supposed to understand your first story, that he wanted to set up a joint beis din with them. Is one permitted to set up a joint beis din, but not permitted to enter their batei avodah zara?

  • #941299

    charliehall
    Member

    “some members of your community spit and taunt 8 year old girls”

    I know lots of charedim. Not one would ever imagine that doing that was acceptable, much less mutar! Why didn’t the rabbis say something? The silence was deafening!!!

  • #941300

    charliehall
    Member

    “the despicable nature of his act”

    Solving a mamzer problem is despicable?

  • #941302

    charliehall
    Member

    “hence throwing into question all conversions done by them.”

    Still requires an investigation into each and every case. Regardless of the question there is nothing in halachah that permits an *en masse* pasuling of conversions. Must I remind you what Chazal say about a beit din that doesn’t hear from all parties involved before deciding a case? Sorry, but you can’t make up halachah.

    And if R’Druckman’s actions were so offensive, why didn’t the charedim take down the government? He was a government appointee and the charedim had the votes. Fortunately the religious judge on the Israeli Supreme Court restored things to proper order.

  • #941303

    charliehall
    Member

    I should mention that I am unfamiliar with ANY of the particular cases that were involved with R’Druckman’s beit din. If a particular beit din has reason, after investigation, to question the conversion and to require a giyur l’chumra, that is within their authority. The problem is the deciding of a case — or, in this case, multiple cases — without investigation. There is nothing in halachah that provides for that.

  • #941304

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I know lots of charedim. Not one would ever imagine that doing that was acceptable, much less mutar! Why didn’t the rabbis say something? The silence was deafening!!!

    And Its time to end the excuses on it , Millions of dollars was spent on Asifas. Internet Bans, TV bands etc.

    When Charedi Rabbis make a proclimation the Tzibur listens. They declare one must die or go to jail rather than go to the army and I am sure people will follow

    How hard is it to say, We shall Banish the Sikarim who spit and curse 8 year old girls creating treamendous Chilul Hashem. They will not be allowed in our shuls , their children will not be allowed in our schools

  • #941305

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Ah, Popa, us contortionists love a good workout.

    But I must beg to differ. I am a Zionist observant Jew, no more or less, not a “religious zionist” I am not beholden to this “camp” or that “camp”. I am also not blind, so forgive me for seeing the ikveso demeshicho (not just in the medina, but well before) as HKBH intends for those with open eyes to see.

    It’s pretty simple to me, actually. It is who I am, its in my yichus, in the teaching of my parents and grandparents and greatgrandparents (including the one – among many others – who davened at the Mizrachi shul in Krakow in shtreimel and bekeshe), its in the old yishuv in yerushalayim where my grandfather was born, its in the yeshiva in chevron where my great uncle’s classmates were murdered. Its in the bases where my cousins are serving, its in the yeshivos they learned in first. Its in sefer Yirmiyahu. Its in the botei knesios at Katzrin and Masada.

    In fact, the only thing I need to contort my brain to figure out is how you can be so obtuse about it. But in a very endearing way, of course.

  • #941306

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Zdad, Charlie, the silence was not deafening. There were plenty of voices condemning it, and more importantly, nobody was defending it. There was no purpose or cause for a kol koreh or anything else.

    Frankly, it wasn’t an issue that was related to the chareidi tzibbur. It was carried out by people who we know don’t listen to the gedolim, and was not sympathized with by anyone who does listen to the gedolim. We’ve been battling these sikrikim forever–they don’t care what we say.

  • #941307

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Frankly, it wasn’t an issue that was related to the chareidi tzibbur. It was carried out by people who we know don’t listen to the gedolim, and was not sympathized with by anyone who does listen to the gedolim. We’ve been battling these sikrikim forever–they don’t care what we say.

    How about kicking their kids out of the schools and kicking them out of every shul.

    People did not defend it, but they didnt declared these people Reshaim like they do with many Dati Leumi Rabbis either.

    Someone either sells to them or rents to them in RMS. Declare it assur to rent them an aparetment or sell them an apartment. I am sure if some Anti-religious Chiloni wanted to rent an apartment in RMS there would be mass upheval not to rent to them

  • #941308

    Sam2
    Member

    Popa: Many Rabbonim have tried many things over the centuries to be Mattir Mamzerim. Look at the T’shuvos. We do everything possible to Mattir them. Rav Goren’s issue was just that he went too far.

  • #941309

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sure. Do you really want us to get into the business of kicking people out of shul who we don’t agree with? Because somehow I think you won’t like that result.

    And of course people declared them reshaim. Go back and read the CR from then. What was I saying? Blazes, what was even Joseph saying? Go read the forums on b’chadrei chareidim (I haven’t, but I’m confident you’ll find the majority voices condemning, and the minority will be those lunatics, who presumably are more represented on the internet, as we know that lunatics gravitate to discussion boards on the internet.)

  • #941310

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam:

    His issue was not that he took it too far, but that he took it too far and ignored the fact that he was standing on his own against the whole world and against people much greater than he.

    But that is not what I was criticizing here. I was criticizing that he did it in a political way; it looks as if he did it in order to win the chief rabbinate election. He ran on it as his campaign.

  • #941311

    zdad:

    “The GOP recently comissioned a report and why they lost. The haredim would be wise to act similary although not much research is given.”

    It’s really not that complicated: Bennet allied with Lapid, making it impossible for Netanyahu to form a coalition including the Chareidim. Case closed.

    “Surely you and excommunicatre and throw the children out of school of Sikirim who spit and taunt 8 year old girls.”

    The Chareidim are not one homogenous group, and the extremists have their own shuls, schools, etc. The people spitting on little girls are the same one spraying “Shteinman = Kook” graffiti in Meah Shearim/Ramat Bais Shemesh (apparently, “Kook” is the biggest insult they can think of). These people are the “Open Orthodoxy” of the Chareidi world; there’s really not much that can be done about them.

    “You dont win friends when you call people Goyim, Haters of Torah etc who do not agree with you. Especially when their views are certainly within Halachic boundaries”

    That I do agree with. The Chareidim need to come across as less belligerent if they want to make long-term friends.

    yichusdik:

    “talmidim and kollel learners reach heights of dveykus and amilus in Torah learning, and then get in a tank or a jeep and protect Jewish lives. They aren’t in bnei brak.”

    Yeah, in Bnei Brak they just learn all day. Not sure why you seem to think that that’s inferior to learning and serving.

    “It is the opportunity we have to demonstrate to the eibishter that we can be a complete people, not a collection of individuals doing individual mitzvos.”

    Personally, I’d rather be an individual who observes Torah u’Mitzvos than be part of a “complete people” who do not accept upon themselves the yoke of Torah observance. But apparently, I can only speak for myself.

    It is an egregious, yet smug and self satisfying lie to insist that the creation and continued existence of the State of Israel has solved all of our problems, and now all we have to do is sing kumbaya together.

    “forgive me for seeing the ikveso demeshicho”

    I agree that current events, what with us returning to both our land and to Torah study en masse, is probably (and hopefully) ikvisa di’mishicha. But that doesn’t whitewash the Medina’s rather mixed record towards Torah and those who observe it.

  • #941313

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If the Charedim never issued Siruvs or Charedim, you would have a point, but they do it all the time for other lesser offenses.

    In fact one of the issues that has been brought up is the Charedi Chief Rabbnis issues too many Siruvs

  • #941314

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It’s really not that complicated: Bennet allied with Lapid, making it impossible for Netanyahu to form a coalition including the Chareidim. Case closed.

    You missed the point why did Bennet feel he could make an alliance with Lapid instead of the charedi parties without destroying his own party. In Israel MK’s can leave their party and join other parties or their own party , It happens all the time.

    It seems the Dati Leumi in israel would rather be with Chilonim than Charedim. HONESTLY ask yourself why. Saying they are Goyim and Hate torah is not truthful, The Dati Leumi are religious

  • #941315

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If the Charedim never issued Siruvs or Charedim, you would have a point, but they do it all the time for other lesser offenses.

    I think the point I was trying to make is that they issue announcements to people who listen to them; not to people who don’t listen to them.

    As far as the chief rabbinate, I have no idea what they do or don’t do. Nor do I really care.

  • #941316

    zdad:

    “It seems the Dati Leumi in israel would rather be with Chilonim than Charedim. HONESTLY ask yourself why.”

    To be brutally honest, I think it’s because Bennet, and the left-wing D”L community in general, have more in common with the chillonim than the Chareidim, both socially and ideology. They were finally forced to choose between the religious and the Zionist, and their choice speaks volumes about their true priorities. They are Zionists first, religious second.

    Avi K:

    “Kanoi, I don’t know where you live but b”H I have lived in Israel for 25 years and I know people who work even though they have not done the Army for various reasons (too old when they came, medical reasons etc.).”

    Could be. But if somebody doesn’t serve because he is learning, he is not allowed to work.

    rebdoniel:

    “Torat Yisrael, Medinat Yisrael, Am Yisrael.”

    See, now that scares me. You seem to be equating the importance of a secular state with an at best mixed record of behavior towards Torah and those who observe it to the importance of both the existence Hashem’s eternal Torah and the existence of Klal Yisroel, Hashem’s chosen people. Besides being completely and ridiculously untrue, that is highly problematic, to say the least.

  • #941317

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Maybe you dont hear what I am saying

    The Sikirim curse and spit at 8 year olds, The Charedi leadership says these people are not really one of us, they are reshaim who wont listen to what we say .

    The in the next sentence they will yell and scream about the Goyim and Torah haters who discrimate against true jews because they feel they should work

  • #941318

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is nothing inconsistent about that. Of course we complain when people are doing things to us.

  • #941319

    Let’s put things in perspective here. Once, one crazy extremist spit at a 8 year old girl. Besides for the fact that these people are a negligible extremist faction/cult, let’s not make it sound like this is something that even they do everyday. It happened, the media went crazy, not one “Chareidi leader” said anything to support or condone it, and that was the end of it.

    Compare that to a political party, representing the entire D”L community, controlling over tenth of the government, deciding it wants to join the anti-religious faction in forcing their ideals down the throats of the entire Chareidi community, forcing the Chareidim to do what they have long held was prohibited.

    Can you really not see why the Chareidi leadership would feel a need to respond to one and not the other?

  • #941320

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its one thing to complain , Its quite another to call them goyim , dogs and other names.

    Its certainly fair to say that we disagree on the draft , Good torah jews do not go to the draft and we belive we should not be drafted

    However its very different to say Those Anti-Semtic Goyish Dogs want to draft true torah jews

  • #941321

    rebdoniel
    Member

    The Haredim can leave whenever they want. Nobody is holding them hostage. Just make sure the door doesn’t hit them on the way out.

    Those that don’t believe in the Medina must go. They’re too great a liability to assume responsibility for.

    Park Heights Avenue and Avenue J and Route 59 are open for them.

    The gemara says that those who toil erev shabbat eat on shabbat. You don’t get something for nothing. You have no right to live in and milk a country you do nothing to contribute to.

  • #941322

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Haredim can leave whenever they want. Nobody is holding them hostage. Just make sure the door doesn’t hit them on the way out.

    We should leave? How about the tzionim and their erev rav can leave and go to Uganda.

  • #941323

    akuperma
    Participant

    to: ‘The Haredim can leave whenever they want. Nobody is holding them hostage. Just make sure the door doesn’t hit them on the way out. “

    1. The Hareidim were there first. Before the zionists. Before the Arabs. Before the Greeks and Romans.Being a bunch of religious fanatics with weird ideas on halacha, we were chased out of what is now Iraq about 4000 years ago.

    2.What is the basis of the zionist claim to Eretz Yisrael?. Zionists have lived in Israel for barely over a century. Compare that to the Americans who have been in their land for 400 years, or the English who arrived 1500 years ago, or the Palestinians who arrived 1400 years if you ignore the DNA evidence that they aren’t really Arabs and are a mixture of Jewish hilonim (a.k.a. mityavanim), Greek and Romans. Based on DNA, most Jews are only partly over middle eastern ancestry, and that’s concentrated on the male line – there were apparently many more female converts in ancient times but they were convereted based on good old fashioned hareidi halachas. As of the 19th century, very few Jews spoke Hebrew except for hareidi fanatics who learned in Hebrew, rather than Latin or Arabic as did normal westerners. Except for a few hareidim, few Jews wanted to live in Israel (and it wasn’t the Arabs who kept us away, if fact they welcomed Jews back when the defeated the Romans – probably figured anyone who hates Romans can’t be all bad).

  • #941324

    “Its one thing to complain , Its quite another to call them goyim , dogs and other names.”

    Oh, come on. For every time the Bennet/Lapid was insulted, the Chareidim were called parasites, primitives, etc. The nature of a stormy debate is that it attracts hotheads, and hotheads tend to hurl insults. This is by no means a phenomena limited to the Chareidi world.

  • #941325

    Avi K
    Participant

    1. The contention that the IDF “persecutes” Orthodox Jews is nonsense. In fact the majority of the candidates in officer training courses are Orthodox. Army kitchens are kosher and it is assur to bring chametz on bases during Pesach – and a son of one of my friends said that his base is even kitniot-free.

    2. It is a mitzva d’Oraita to serve in the IDF (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot” Mitzva 4, Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 2:23 and Hilchot Melachim 7:4, Mishpat Cohen 143, Tzitz Eliezer 13:100)

    3. All those who meavzeh rabbanim and quote sharp statements of gedolim should learn Baba Metzia 83b regarding what a gadol may say and what an am ha’aretz may say.

  • #941327

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“2. It is a mitzva d’Oraita to serve in the IDF”

    The Gedolim said it’s Ossur to go to the IDF. (I explained this a few times here in the CR.) I guess they don’t learn the Rambam like you do!

  • #941328

    Naftush
    Member

    Akuperma refers to a “law prohibiting Jews from working unless they complete army service.” There’s no such thing. Anyone with a legal exemption (on medical grounds, for being an Arab, for being a frum woman on her say-so, for being deemed unsuitable for service, etc.) is free to work, learn, and anything else. In contrast, those who declare “torato umanuto” are given deferments, making them de jure soldiers on something like extended leave. This and only this is why they cannot work.

  • #941329

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It seems there are plans to move the Charedi Populations to Vienna, because of the generous benefits there.

    I dont know who are the gevrim who are supporting the Yeshivas, But I am sure at least some of them are either Dati Leumi or even Chilonim (Many non-relgious actually do support religious institutions). I doubt these supporters will be too happy if the charedim move to Vienna of all places (Its not so easier to emmigrate to US for Israeli non-Us citizens and benefits are likely to be cut here as well due to political climate)

    Probably many charedim will be forced to sell their apartments in a fire sale in order to be able to afford to move to Vienna further improverting them (They will need the money to pay for plane tickets and real estate in Vienna) I doubt many geverim will pay the millions required for this mass exodus along with the money required to build the yeshiva directly.

  • #941330

    chez11
    Member

    So the net result, either way, is that frum yidden are legally prohibited to work. Either because they are exempted with torato umanato or because they weren’t exempted altogether.

  • #941331

    Naftush
    Member

    chez11, the sweeping statement “frum yidden are legally prohibited to work” isn’t true. Anyone who’s been drafted and deferred cannot work, frum or not. This was my status for six months in 1982. I was allowed while deferred to finish teaching a course, but only by special permission and only because the course was for demobilized soldiers. Besides, your statement implies that only full-time learners are frum yidden and vice versa; I hope you didn’t mean it that way.

  • #941332

    Avi K
    Participant
  • #941333

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Health, on the contrary, the gedolim say that it is a mitzva with the exception of those who are learning full-time (and not just registered). Rambam is very clear as is Ramban”

    Sorry the Gedolim from the previous generation till ours, from the Chazon Ish till R’ Shteinman, hold it’s Ossur to go to the IDF whether learning full time or not. Obviously they don’t learn these Rishonim like you. It fails to amaze me that everytime we have a disagreement you seem to say your way is right and e/o has to listen to your way. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps there are Gedolim who don’t see it the same way as your Gedolim and they aren’t wrong?

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