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Amen!!
ameim
write or wrong – I want to let you know that our KIP is getting married – Hang in there, there is light at the end of the tunnel
Thank you – 🙂
I wish you were in the US where the group will help you get through it.
i wish he would come home for pesach :'(
SaysMe
That’s exactly what I meant:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-fifth-son%E2%80%A6
And as I wrote before, under another s/n, HaShem does not come with complaint, “a grudge” against His creatures.This nowadays phenomenon of being OTD is something HaShem knows fully about, he won’t judge you or your son beyond your capabilities.
And just as there’s an answer to the four sons, so too there’s an appropriate answer, response to the OTD son. I (obviously) don’t know, but there is. And Pesach should be the opportune time to be mispalel, that’s the Chag of ????? ????.
lf- i know it was, n it was what my response to u there meant too. But not my son i’m referring to.
First step would be him coming to the seder, literally coming home…
Were thinking of and Davening for you, SaysMe, WoW and others… on Seder night. Some have issues and problems they don’t feel comfortable discussing here even anonymously. Pesach night was a very opportune time. Besides of what I wrote before, seforim write that we are visited by the Shechina and other Heavenly occupants. A certain time for effecting ??????.
thanks lf
Did you stop posting things about your son?
WOW: You are still in our tefilos! Yeshias Hashem Keheref Ayin!
It’s not all about how much love they are getting, they have to feel like their life is meaningful that they are accomplishing things. This is true even (and probably especially) if its not things accomplished in yiddishkeit but if they have some job that they can do (whether it’s work with their hands or learning computers or something) they will feel that they have accomplished and are worth something, and will take a huge step in the right direction
wow- bezras Hashem, good news soon. To put a twist on perspective, bH he is lingering at this point, hopefully the bottom peak, n the curve turns up from here only! And bH he isnt declining further, like by us…
I am not sure what you mean, Nobody would hire him because of the way he looks, but that might not be true. Someone with Long Hair, who wears T-shirts and jeans would not be a good fit for a Seforim Store, but might be a very good fit for a Music Store.
Hi I might not have alot of experince but I have 1 tip for u next x he comes in late or somthing real bad try crying and daven an let him c or over here that u crying make sure he nows its for him u r crying/davening
Be creative look out the box find a job faaaaassstt its v important
Hatsloch gedola
Oh well then try sitting down and asking him wat he eants to do dont push him let him tell u eg I wanna do music jone a band or cook in restarant keep crying make sure he dosnt no that you no he can here
WOW, would he be interested in going on a program in Israel or even in the States?
His confidence has to be built up by being able to accomplish something and do something with his life
keep davening he’s in my tefillah.
I worked on an Amercian program mentoring teens off the D in Israel. Sometimes these boys aren’t motivated and don’t want do anything. It can take a very long time for them to mature and start making life decisions. Just don’t push….yet. It’s a matter of Hashem and time. Much Hatzlocha!!
wow- he’s a teen with a teen brain… So a long time is exactly what you said earlier- when he matures more. Hard, hard, hard! I know…
I got a glimpse of my bro yesterday, n just cried.
That all depends on him, days, months, even years. I myself wasn’t so on the derech growing up. I was a very confused teenager and it took me until I was about 20 to get myself into gear. Baruch Hashem I had a wonderful relationship with my parents even though I was not doing as they wished they decided to support me all the way. There is no sitting shiva for a child who goes off the D.
Sometimes people like your son just need to feel accepted. It’s always better if he can have someone to talk to if not just be the supportive parent which sounds like you have been. Never lose hope in him.
Since there are over 2000 posts on this thread reading it all is just too much so I do not know if any of this was said.
Like all children or adults whom go off the D they are part of klal yisrael and no matter what they do they still need our love and support. We need everyone to bring this long galus to an end, we should adopt the policy leave no one behind.
Much Hatzlocha!!!
This thread started a few years ago, Is he supposed to go in the Army soon?
A gutt voch to all…
someone just told me recently..
‘dont worry your children will ‘come back’…
Because you cry a lot for them, and a mother tears
are NEVER wasted..’
well, I am still waiting, tryng different strategies, and davening and crying..
I have several to deal with..
WOW – Considering that this thread has been relatively inactive you’d be shocked at how often I think about you and wonder how you guys are doing. I especially always think about your younger kids and the yeshiva k’tana issue – it seems like such unnecessary salt on a wound. But i also know so well that’s how things work around here (not to go back there and start that again). At the end of the day are the younger ones someplace? Either way, I just wanted u to know that you’re still in my mind and in my prayers.
WOW – Considering that this thread has been relatively inactive you’d be shocked at how often I think about you and wonder how you guys are doing. I especially always think about your younger kids and the yeshiva k’tana issue – it seems like such unnecessary salt on a wound. But i also know so well that’s how things work around here (not to go back there and start that again). At the end of the day are the younger ones someplace? Either way, I just wanted u to know that you’re still in my mind and in my prayers.
WOW: It was never mentioned what part of Israel you are in, though we are davening for all of Klal Yisroel to stay safe.Any updates for us on any progress with your son?
I’m curious, what does your son say about all this. Maybe you mentioned it, I didn’t read through all of the posts. What does he believe about God and Torah? What does he want to do with his life?
Has he tried other derachim such as Religious Zionist or Torah Im Derech Eretz? For many today, the entire definition of Torah observance is Gemara study. This doesn’t work for many people.
I commend you wow for not discarding and shunning your son because of his alternate lifestyle like so many have done to their “former” children, siblings etc.
to write or wrong
I just noticed your post. I had a son who went off the derech 2 years ago, became a mechallel shabbos and basically slept all day and hung out all night…. we took him from therapist to therapist and he refused to open up.
One day I decided that I would spend every Friday with him. I took him to the Zoo, the planterium, Jewish museum, etc etc..
He would be totally silent and refused to communicate with me. It was very very uncomfortable as you can very much imagine.
He would smoke pot day and night!
One Friday, I decided that I couldnt take the silence anymore and i didnt want to go anywhere with him.
We used to leave around 9:00 Am every Friday for our trips.
This particular Friday, he suddenly texted me around 2:00 PM, (Im in the same house) and asked, are we going anywhere today? That’s when I knew I had him… and so we renewed our Friday Trips, even though it was very difficult for me to take off from work. On our trips I would put on the CD’s called “Carlebach Stories”, and he would tell me that these stories never happened, trying to get me into an argument, but I was thrilled since he started actually conversing with me…. and I told him, that he doesn’t have to believe the stories, its not Torah, but its entertainment, and so slowly we would start talking about Hashkafa, with him questioning the Existance of a Higher Being, and you cannot imagine the pain that I had, but he was talking, and i would validate what he said, and I would give him politely my answer.
Slowly but surely I asked him to come shabbos to shul, not to daven but for kiddush, for kugel etc… and he came…
I am a magid shiur in my shul, and you cannot imagine how I felt when he would show up to shul for kiddush with his open shirt to his navel, but when he showed up, I would run to him and put my arm around his shoulders and thank him for coming, eventhough I wanted to strangle him…
He then asked for a car, and I said I would lease him a brand new car on 2 conditions, A) that he passes a drug test. and b) that he doesnt drive the car on shabbos…
He waited 6 months took the drug test and passed and he got a car…
once he was off pot, I noticed small changes for the better every day
To make a long story short,
Today he learns in Israel day and night, he is a masmid and doesn’t even possess a Kosher phone. The only way I communicate with him, is when he borrows a phone every Friday to call me..
So be Strong, I had actually given up on him and withing 1 year, things did a 360 degree turn…
if you want to contact me, ill be happy to discuss in more detail what we did…
But don’t give up
Remedies depend a lot on the type of kid this is. Sometimes, you get very intelligent, independent minded kids who get turned off by all the dogma that is common today. They can be directed to the numerous people who encourage a broad minded Judaism: R’ Joseph Soloveitchik, R’ Samson Raphael Hirsch, R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky. Sorry no links
Some kids are not intellectually inclined. This doesn’t mean they are not intelligent, just that they don’t find themselves in books and ideas. They are people of action. This whole one-size-fits-all model of an entire childhood sitting at a desk destroys them as does the view that Judaism = learning and davening. Kids like this often need a parnassah that gives them a sense of purposefulness and independence. They also need a different kind of connection to Judaism, perhaps one that emphasizes the value of mitzvos, including chesed. Some find this in moving to Israel and being a part of the activity there in running a country. The key is action, not thought.
Some kids have been abused and need to work out the damage and regain their sense of dignity and worth. A good therapist can help there. Try ASCASupport.org for support groups.
Some kids are so wrapped up in drugs or general junk culture that they can’t think straight anymore. Usually Jewish kids have a special instinct that they aren’t going to do well in the long run like that and have a special strength to extricate themselves. Drugs have a powerful hold on the brain and body. Shmuel Gluck’s organization can help there – areivim I think it’s called.
Some kids just need a change of derech. The MO kid becomes more charedi. The charedi kid becomes MO. It would help if he knew that you were open to that.
Some kids struggle with mental illness that may or may not be in the genes. But a person can have a satisfying life even with mental illness. Like any illness they need to learn about it and work with it.
One of the really tricky things about the halacha is that it can be very difficult to work all of this out while single – not that a highly confused person can necessarily be successfully married. Forgive the bluntness here but the tivas and loneliness can really make a young person crazy where they can’t focus on anything but that. It’s a real Catch 22, a conundrum. But tying together the hope of getting married with getting one’s life on a track can be helpful.
I can’t imagine that giving him a chance to talk would hurt the situation. Main thing is not to argue with him, just let him talk and unburden his heart. He’s probably had people talking over him his whole life (not you, but plenty of others). Many young people never think about their future, so asking him about his future may spark the idea that he needs to think about and start working something out. And deep inside he wants to. Many people don’t even know that they are allowed to build their own vision for a life and to formulate their own thoughts about Judaism. Amazing things can happen when a person is allowed to think. Just ask him questions, not in a nagging way, not in a judging way, but in a way where you are interested in his point of view. Let him know that you want to help him. A mother’s love goes a long, long way.
If I read the prior posts correctly you are living in Israel. But you seem to be a natural English speaker so perhaps you are originally American. Was he raised partially in the USA? That can complicate matters some if he now finds himself in a very restrictive community.
There are many options and I have seen all kinds of kids go from OTD to frum. But I must stress that frum doesn’t mean masmid yeshiva man necessarily. Too many people have that picture, that the kid will turn himself around and never again look away from the Gemara. Frum means Shomer Shabbos with a connection to God. There are many forms of this. A white shirt is not obligatory.
Thanks for sharing, and baruch Hashem for his return to Torah so his neshema can be nourished again.
We need to remember that even though we want so much to help them, what they need from us is love, understanding, and patience
To Write or Wrong
He went off the derech at 18, I never found out why…. but he was in Israel learning and he had told my wife that he has Hashkafa problems, also he was telling her that he even felt bad for the Palestinians. I took the next plane out and told him, if he has Hashkafa issues, he can have them in the USA, I packed his bags and took him back with me….he didn’t say one word on the 11 hour flight…
but I now believe that he got in with some bad kids, and I believe it was the pot that screwed up his brain. When I told him that, he would say that pot is safe… but as he got weaned off pot I saw a complete change, both in his return to Hashem and to us….I also think that the time that I gave him on Fridays showed him that I cared very much for him.
Giving him the car was a way for me to find out how bad his addiction to drugs was, the deal was that I would have him tested randomly, and I found out from the lab that he was only on pot…. but believe me once he was off pot because he wanted the car so much, he changed..
Also, after our Friday trips, I would drop him off at Ohr Samaich, and told him to just hang out there for an hour and I would then pick him up. He met a Rebbi there by the name of Switiczky that was learning there on Fridays by himself and he took an interest in my son, and my son became very attached to him…
my son says that the trips and R’ Switizky saved his life…
but I think it was his stopping the pot…
I would advise you to have him tested for drugs…
The way I did it, the very first time, was to tell him that the Insurance Compny requires a checkup, and I called the Doctor and told him to check him
WOW: Just to let you know my thoughts and tefilos are still with you…..
Send him to r yoel roth
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