Inviting Non-Jewish Co-Workers To A Simcha?

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  • #1143999

    enough of this conversation

    indeed

    #1144000

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    deleted, this conversation has already ended

    #1144002

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Myfriend. For the 3rd time. You insisted again and again that there was an issue of Maris Ayin on my going to the restuarant where the wedding party was held. I ask one more time. WHERE or HOW was this Maris Ayin nothing more, nothing less.

    #1144003

    arc
    Participant

    thats hypocrisy but not calling people names and then accusing them of name calling.

    grada in my case we were advised to have the ger to be on the second day of Y”T.

    #1144004

    Helpful
    Member

    apashutayid: Rav Belsky spoke to what you did. It was wrong.

    #1144005

    chesedname
    Participant

    Moderator-80

    i don’t capitalize much.

    i hope my question with the dictionary wasn’t lost here

    #1144007

    aries2756
    Participant

    In my case, when I asked my Rav about a “giyores in progress”, my very chashuvah Rav z”tl told me, maybe you haven’t heard the story of Rus and Naomi. And that was for the Yomim Noraim, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

    #1144008

    cherrybim
    Participant

    gavra – of course you can, cap or even bloizen kop, but wearing a yarmalke is like giving a hechsher to a treif environment.

    #1144010

    aries2756
    Participant

    Unless YOU are a POSEK, which I doubt since no POSEK would be here on the internet, and you have learned everything many times over. AND you can quote chapter and verse for ALL references to any given topic then YOU do not have the right to say 1,000% what is allowed and what is not allowed.

    EDITED

    #1144012

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Helpful, are you also Myfriend?

    I will go back and reread what it is claimed Rav Belsky said to see if it is relevant to my situation.

    #1144013

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Can I assume that this is the “Rav Belsky” that you refer to?

    If it is, I will ask one more time. In MY situation, where was the Maris Ayin?

    #1144014

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Maris Ayin is even “b’chadre chadarim”, you can be locked away where it is imposable for anyone to see or know who you are there; but Maris Ayin applies, as if someone did see you.

    When someone sees me in a treif restaurant, they may say, “If that frum fellow with a yarmalke can eat there, then it’s ok to eat”. They don’t know that I’m only using the telephone or the bathroom. However, if someone sees me without a yarmalke in the treif restaurant, he will know something is not right and is not likely to be mistaken.

    You know what the most popular hechsher is? It’s: Everyone Eats There.

    #1144015

    aries2756
    Participant

    That might be true but personally I don’t use that hechsher.

    #1144016

    myfriend
    Member

    apashutayid, you are willfully blinded. Must Rav Belsky tell you it applies to Ruth’s Chris Steak House, otherwise you won’t accept it and claim he must be referring only to Morton’s Steakhouse?

    Rav Belsky said even if your boss tells you there will be a business meeting or for you to meet a client in a non-kosher restaurant you cannot — unless you will lose your job otherwise. But you insist you can go to chazer fresseray in a treif place because your coworker is celebrating picking up his newest wife?

    #1144017

    Wolf: You’re a great guy. I really have no idea why an intelligent and sincere person like you should have any problems with his self image.

    cherrybim: If you enter a kosher/treif restaurant, but you don’t actually eat anything there, then it may not be maaris ayin, since the fellow outside has reason to assume that [since you have a yarmulka on your head] you had just entered in order to get a drink or use the restroom. This is what GAW seemed to be quoting from Igros Moshe.

    #1144018

    apushatayid
    Participant

    For the last time. Where is the Maris Ayin in my case.

    #1144020

    Wolf: You’re a great guy. I really have no idea why an intelligent and sincere person like you should have any problems with his self image.

    cherrybim: If you enter a kosher/treif restaurant, but you don’t actually eat anything there, then it may not be maaris ayin, since the fellow outside has reason to assume that [since you have a yarmulka on your head] you had just entered in order to get a drink or use the restroom. This is what GAW seemed to be quoting from Igros Moshe.

    #1144021

    myfriend
    Member

    LMA, I cited the Igros Moshe, and Rav Moshe said you *cannot* enter a treif restaurant. See Rav Belsky’s comment on the IM.

    apy, You wrote you attended a party at a non-kosher restaurant. That itself is maris ayin.

    That’s my last post addressing this point for the umpteenth time due to your willful blindness. Feel free to have the last word, or 10 posts, repeating yourself.

    #1144022

    aries2756
    Participant

    apushatayid, I realize you are playing along for the fun of it because you are smart enough to ask your own RAV or Posek for an answer to any sheilah you might have. Anyone can look something up and cut and paste an answer to back themselves up, but that doesn’t make them a RAV or a POSEK. You are a smartcookie and a friend to all, and more than a pushata yid in my book.

    #1144023

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    apushatayid,

    Unfortunately your challenge is not quite a fair one, because very few details have been provided, other than “treif restaurant” and “non-Jewish party.” Obviously when you brought this to your Rov you provided him with far greater detail than you brought here.

    I would like to bring to the table two thoughts that I have yet to see presented in this discussion:

    1.) A Rov tells a person what to do based on how the halacha applies to the person’s specific situation, which is often very complex. Therefore, rather than bashing somebody’s Rov when his decision sounds surprising to us, we should realize that we do not have the full picture that the Rov was given. We might not even have the full picture of what the Rov said. For example, apushatayid stated that he was at the party for 45 minutes… no wedding party lasts 45 minutes, so obviously there are details in his case that we don’t know. That said, based on what was provided (which is noted to be incomplete), it sounds like a possible M”A issue to me because of the treif restaurant. How is it problematic even if no Jew sees? Imagine if one of the partiers is a boss at a company with Jewish employees. He later asks the Jewish employees to meet him at the same treif restaurant for an after hours social event, and when the Jewish employees say they can’t come, the boss says, “well just the other week at a party I saw an Orthodox Jew there…”

    2.) When a Rov tells us what to do in a specific situation, we cannot take that decision and apply it to different situations ourselves. In other words, what a Rov might say regarding the non-Jewish parents of a ger who dropped in on Yom Tov cannot be applied to inviting non Jewish co-workers for a Yom Tov seuda. Taken to an extreme to make the point, if a Rov tells someone not to fast on the 10th of Teves because he has a serious infection, that person cannot say the following year, “my Rov said that I can eat on the 10th of Teves!”

    #1144024

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Myfriend. Yes, I was at the party. Now please tell me, WHO saw me at this party and thought I was doing an aveira so that there was an issue of Maris Ayin. The answer is NOBODY. You assumed incorrectly, when you jumped in and said “not allowed because of Maris Ayin”. However, you were not aware of all the facts but opened your moputh anyway. Dont assume, because when you do you make an a## out of u and me (mostly out of you).

    #1144025

    arc
    Participant

    myfriend I have asked in the specific case you claim maris ayin and was told it was ok.

    #1144026

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: You’re a great guy.

    Thank you. But apparently there are those here who disagree with you.

    The Wolf

    #1144027

    cantoresq
    Member

    Myfriend nailed it.

    What do you say when invited to wedding, held in a swanky country club, on a Sunday, and they order you a sealed, airline style meal (so kashrus is assured)to the invitation? I can’t make it because….. ?

    Sure, you could make an excuse once, twice, a second time, But after a while, they see thru it and you look anti-social.

    Think that’s a sticky situation? Hows this: You get invited to a mixed marriage. Do you go, and in effect, give this union your seal of approval? OK, this may not women in such a bind. But I(to the goyish velt) look very much like a Rabbi. In fact, more so than the “Brooks Brothers” rabbi who just performed the ceremony.

    How do I get out of that one? Best bet: leave work at work.

    ____________________________________________________

    In the first instance one goes to the affair, is grateful for the thoughtful gesture of the host in ordering a kosher meal, and makes sure to congratulate the celebrants. In the second instance, one demurs going, explaining that while s/he wishes the young couple much happiness in life, given the very sensitive nature of the intermarriage issue, and given current Orthodox sensibilities, it would be inappropriate to attend. One then asks the host to please understand that it isn’t personal nor is it a matter of being judgmental. It’s simply a matter of religious sensibilities. Assuming one has generally been a mentsch until that point, and not inconsistent in his/her religious conduct at work, no offense should reasonably be taken.

    #1144028

    oomis
    Participant

    love the non-kosher restaurant thing

    “You seem to love many non-kosher things”

    Now that was just plain uncalled-for. Shame on you.

    My interpretation of the comment “love the non-kosher restaurant thing” was that she just “loves” to hear someone rehash that old issue (rolled eyes). But even if I am mistaken, that was an appalling thing for you to say to someone.

    #1144029

    TheChevra
    Member

    apushata,

    On another thread you mention you live in Brooklyn. If you work in commuting distance from there, what restaurant can you enter or leave without being seen by a Jew, with certainty? This is NY Metro.

    Also, I’m wondering, even if you would not be seen, does Maris Eyin allow it? The distinction of Maris Eyin seems to make no difference even if it were to occur in Saudia Arabia with not a Jew within hundreds of miles, any more or less than on 13th Avenue in Boro Park. Cherrybim also made note of this point above.

    #1144030

    aries2756
    Participant

    At 17 I worked for HUD a Federal Government agency and worked for the Director. He was arranging a party and called me into his office. He asked me to be one of the hostesses who would be passing h’or dorves(?) around. I told him that I couldn’t do that since the food wasn’t kosher and that there would be Jews at the party. I told him that I couldn’t offer treif food to Jews. He was surprised because he didn’t know that but then he, a religious catholic apologized to me and asked if I could serve coffee or tea. I said that would be fine.

    As far as what someone else might say because APY was at the party, for all YOU know they might say that a JEW was at the party and didn’t eat anything because the food wasn’t kosher but came to show his respects to the host. Which would be a kidush Hashem for anyone who spoke about it. So again before someone jumps to conclusions and paskens for someone else know that this is not the ASK the RABBI site and one should be very careful what they say and about whom they say it. Because a JEW is taught to be DAN L’KAF ZCHUS and not to keep looking for the bad and wrong in everyone. AND because each one of us has our own RAV and our own common sense to know right from wrong and who to go to for answers.

    #1144031

    mosherose
    Member

    “When Eeees and I got married, some of the non-Jews who attended were *our* friends, and yes, it did contribute greatly to our simcha.”

    Youre not alloued to be friends with a goy. Eisav sonei lyakov. Always keep that in mind. The person who you think is yur freind really hates you deep down. Why would you be freinds with someone who wants to kill you?

    #1144032

    mosherose
    Member

    “the torah is a book of rules, we don’t pick and choose based on what makes us feel good, or because we think we’re doing the right thing, or it seems like the right thing to do.

    many a good intention led to wars!”

    Thats right. And people who try to convince us that aveiros are mitzvos have been shown to cause the most damag to the yiddishe people.

    #1144034

    ronrsr
    Member

    mosherose is back. and in his finest form.

    #1144035

    WIY
    Member

    ronrsr

    I doubt he ever left he probably posts under so many screen names that he has a rotation and today is mosheroses turn.

    #1144036

    dunno
    Member

    I never agree with mosherose but this time he has a point. One should always remember eisav sonei es yaakov.

    #1144038

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    MR, tell that to the righteous gentiles who saved many of our Jewish bretheren during the Holocaust.

    Esav Sonei L’Yaakov is a GENERAL rule, not a specific one.

    #1144041

    Helpful
    Member

    Eisev sonah l’yaakov

    Like all our “very good” friends and neighbors that were always there for us and helped us and were so nice to us in Germany and the other countires.

    But as soon as the Nazi’s came to town, all these great neighborly and friendly goyim that our children played with and grew up with all their lives, were the FIRST to turn over the Yidden next door to them for the Nazi’s to murder.

    Eisev Sonah L’Yaakov indeed. Don’t think it can’t happen in America. Tommorow.

    #1144043

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJS:

    Many Tannayim & Amorayim were friends with non-jews.

    Abbaye and the graverobber being a specific example, but there are others (such as the obvious, Rebbe and Antoninus)

    More so, how about Avraham and Aner, Eshkol & Mamre?

    Don’t worry about it.

    #1144044

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Helpful, its definitely a general rule. But have you heard of all the stories of righteous gentiles who saved many, many Jews at risk to their own personal lives?

    That’s why its a general rule, not a specific one. Not every non-Jew hates Jews.

    #1144045

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Chesedname, its a more common heter than you seem to realize.

    And I really want a deli sandwich.

    #1144046

    helpful

    not only did they turn them over but as they walked to the deportation areas their friendly neighbors spit on them and beat them with wooden boards that had nails sticking out

    #1144047

    wow did this thread ever take a turn…

    #1144048

    chesedname
    Participant

    mods

    WHAT HAPPENED TO MY POST?

    The same thing that happened to wolfs posts regarding this matter.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/inviting-non-jewish-co-workers-to-a-simcha/page/4?view=all#post-167023

    #1144049

    chesedname
    Participant

    mods

    who decides the conversation is closed? wolf? why?

    shame on you, you know better.

    EDITED

    The moderation staff decided this acrimonous conversation of personal insults and degrading comments is closed. (the bold print in wolfs deleted post was inserted by a moderator) This will not be discussed further. Please refrain from continuing.

    #1144050

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Sometimes I wonder if anyone reads my posts.

    #1144052

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Sometimes I wonder if anyone reads my posts.

    FWIW, I do.

    The Wolf

    #1144053

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If I may, I would just like to make the point that I did all that chesed asked. I asked a rav the shaila he asked, I conceded the point and will follow the psak given.

    The Wolf

    Fine, but now…….over and out.

    #1144055

    Are CN and MR one in the same?

    Where did we lose the original topic about inviting non-Jewish guests to our simchas?

    And let’s leave the Holocaust out of this thread. Obviously, 90% of us realize that not every goy is standing with a knife behind their back, and we all know stories about righteous goyim who saved Jews. Ever hear of a book called “The Diary of Anne Frank” for starters? My aunt and uncle were hidden by goyish neighbors for the duration of the war, and lived to tell of it.

    Re my comment, many pages ago about mosques, I realize I erred greatly by implying it was halacha. It was a mistaken assumption on my part based on our not entering churches or conservative or deformed “temples”. But it is a good example of how all these arguments started, we assume something is assur or muttar, but assumptions are dangerous. I stand corrected.

    #1144057

    charliehall
    Participant

    cantoresq got it right on the weddings.

    “But it is a good example of how all these arguments started, we assume something is assur or muttar, but assumptions are dangerous.”

    Correct. And in the case of entering churches or heterodox synagogues, there are indeed exceptions to the general prohibition. In my neighborhood the rabbis endorsed entering the Conservative synagogue for a blood drive where testing for bone marrow matches to save the life of a frum man was being done. It is a *mitzvah* for a recovering alcoholic to go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in a church basement. (Everyone I know who has asked a shilah on that has received the same answer: Attend any AA meeting held in a church UNLESS the AA meeting is being held in the main church sanctuary.) And four Orthodox rabbis attended the funeral mass of the Pope at the Vatican.

    #1144058

    Helpful
    Member

    What about the so-called Rabbi who went into the chruch’s cathedral in Washington for Obama?

    #1144059

    Homeowner
    Member

    Yesterday I was listening to the news on WCBS and there was a story about a newly-published book “The Envoy: The Epic Rescue of the Last Jews of Europe in the Desperate Closing Months of World War II” By Alex Kershaw which deals with the Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg as well as his Swiss counterpart.

    As the son of someone who was helped by one of them, I cannot begin to tell you how much it turns my stomach to read words such as:

    Youre [sic] not alloued [sic] to be friends with a goy. Eisav sonei lyakov. Always keep that in mind. The person who you think is yur [sic] freind [sic] really hates you deep down. Why would you be freinds [sic] with someone who wants to kill you?

    As my father, A”H used to say to some people:

    “You have it too good.”

    #1144060

    myfriend
    Member

    The sons of the Yidden in Germany, Ukraine, etc. where their goyish friends and neighbors turned them into the Nazi’s for extermination, were never born to relay to us what the goyim did to them.

    #1144061

    charliehall
    Participant

    “What about the so-called Rabbi who went into the chruch’s cathedral in Washington for Obama? “

    He isn’t a “so-called” Rabbi, he is Rabbi Haskel Lookstein, the senior rabbi of one of the largest synagogues in New York and the principal of one of the largest day schools in New York. And he was backed up by Dayan Michael Broyde who cited the Tzitz Eliezer.

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