seems a good kasha maybe check the mephorshim on rashi like the gur arye and mizrahi?
YWN Coffee Room » Bais Medrash
Kashas On The Parsha
(90 posts)-
Posted 4 months ago #
-
Haleivi and coffee thanx for answering.
Haleivi: leave the Ramban out as I am asking for Rashi's opinion and they often disagree with each other. I was saying that Rashi should include Osnas as Dina's daughter (not as Yosef's wife).
Coffee: Do you mean the pasuk בניו ,בני בניו ,בנתיו ,בנות בניו ,וכל זרעו? This does not include בנות בנתיו as you rightly said, but neither does it include בן בתו who the pasuk writes as שאול בן הכנענית who was Dina's son. He must be included in וכל זרעו so why is Osnas not included in וכל זרעו also?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Shaul ben hakananis was shimons son (ben bino)
Posted 4 months ago # -
littleapple: thank you I will look there.
Coffee: No - remember we are asking on rashi so lets stick with rashi's pshat, and he says on the pasuk that shaul ben haknanis was "ben dina shenivaloh l'kenani". So in rashi's shita are you able to offer an explanation? If we reckon dina's son in the 70 then why do we not include her daughter osnas?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Shticky guy,
Rashi is saying shimons son shaul came from dina who was nival to a kanani
Posted 4 months ago # -
Read the rashi he said why is she called a kenani? Because dinah wouldn't leave shchem until shimon promised to marry her (and guess what? When you get married you have a kid with the person you get married to)
Posted 4 months ago # -
Shaul's mother was definitely dina acc to rashi and she was called kenanis because of her union with shechem. Whether like I learned that shaul was born as a result of that union and later adopted by shimon as a step son, or as you suggest that he was from bnei shimon so his father was shimon and he was not born from dina and shechem but later from dina and shimon is unclear. I have no proof either way (in divrei hayomim it writes simply shaul) but that is not my question. I asked why osnat was not included in the 70.
Interestingly the pasuk I brought above says "bnosov" plural. How many daughters went with him to mitzraim besides dina?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Shticky,
There are times like these I wish I could explain it to you over the phone
I gave you an answer for why osnas wasn't included so you asked me about shaul saying he is from dina so I'm explaining that he's shimons son through dina
I hear the question about daughters thing
Posted 4 months ago # -
I'm explaining that he's shimons son through dina"
This is difficult to accept in a literal sense. Gilui Arayos is one of the sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach also, not just a mitzvah for Jews. How can there be any explanation that makes it okay for a brother and sister to conceive a child together, i.e. Shaul? I cannot see how Shimon and Dina had a biological child together. What am I misunderstanding here?
Posted 4 months ago # -
This is difficult to accept in a literal sense. Gilui Arayos is one of the sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach also, not just a mitzvah for Jews. How can there be any explanation that makes it okay for a brother and sister to conceive a child together, i.e. Shaul? I cannot see how Shimon and Dina had a biological child together. What am I misunderstanding here?
my Rosh Hayeshiva has a beautiful vort on this that yosef and dina were each supposed to be in the other person's mother (yosef was supposed to be in leah and dina was suppossed to be in rachel) and when leah davened they switched mothers so that makes them a brother and sister through father only (a half sibling) which is permitted for bnei noach
the problem arises too if you say that they married their twin sisters so however you anwer that you can answer this
Posted 4 months ago # -
so that makes them a brother and sister through father only (a half sibling) which is permitted for bnei noach
First of all regardless of what was supposed to happen, Shimon and Dinah were full siblings. Secondly do you have a source that half siblings are permitted for Bnei Noach?
Anyways, only Yosef held that they were Bnei Noach, the rest of the brothers (at least the first ten, not sure about Binyamin) held that the Halachos of Bnei Yisroel applied to them.
Posted 4 months ago # -
you're right dash,
however my last sentence still answers it
Posted 4 months ago # -
Dash: Check Rambam Melachim where he talks about it. Only a sister from one parent (I think the mother, not the father) is Assur to B'nei Noach. It's the 6th Halachah in one of the Perakim, I forget which one though. Maybe 9:6?
I'm just curious, by the way, where did you hear that Yosef thought they were B'nei Noach while the brothers thought they were B'nei Yisrael? I thought that was my Chiddush.
Posted 4 months ago # -
What about the midrash that says that each of the shvatim was born with a twin whom they married? I always wondered how they were allowed to do that...
Posted 4 months ago # -
Olam Chessed Yibaneh.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Sam2 I actually heard it from the satmar and my ry mentioned it, it seems like its a davar yedua.
Oneofmany,Thank you, I mentioned that
Posted 4 months ago # -
Oops. I read your post, but for some reason I didn't see that bit. Sorry.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I'm just curious, by the way, where did you hear that Yosef thought they were B'nei Noach while the brothers thought they were B'nei Yisrael? I thought that was my Chiddush.
I thought it was common knowledge, based on Eiver Min HaChai. (It also makes an interisting drasha on Genesis chapter 44 where for a brief moment Yosef and Yehuda switch their views.)
And thanks for the info regarding a half sibling. I'll have to look it up, I didn't know that.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Dash: Yeah, I said it based on the Ever Min Hachai. I found a Gemara though which seems to say we hold like the brothers. Is that Yadua too? :)
Posted 4 months ago # -
question i had
just because ephrayim was gonna have descendants larger in number than menasheh, why is that a reason to get the right hand of yaakov upon his head?Posted 4 months ago # -
I found a Gemara though which seems to say we hold like the brothers. Is that Yadua too?
Which Gemora is that?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Kiddushin (18a I think) calls Esav a "Yisrael Mumar".
Posted 4 months ago # -
Kiddushin (18a I think) calls Esav a "Yisrael Mumar".
Maybe, but when I first looked at it, it seemed like how to catigorize Eisav is not obvious.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Tzaddiq,
Who said that was the reason?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Tzaddiq: See Rashi 19,he says Yehoshua will come from Ephraim(younger will be greater than older).
Posted 4 months ago # -
I found an answer to the bnosov question. Its the sifsei chachomim on that above pasuk 'ubnos banov' on the rashi who says they were serach bas asher and yocheved bas levi. Its beautiful but too long to write out so ayin sham.
Coffee pls bring mekor for your assertion that only the sons descendants were counted despite many pesukim seemingly to the contrary eg kol nefesh lebeis yakov habah mitzraima shivim (ber 46 27) or kol nefesh yotzei yerech yakov shivim nefesh (shemos 1 5) or beshivim nefesh yardu avosecha mitzraima (dev 10 22)?
Ps Look in the Or Hachaim (46 7) on why the shibud began before yocheved and serach were niftar when it should have waited till that whole dor died!
Posted 4 months ago # -
Shticky,
I don't have a mekor and that's the only teretz I can think of that can answer it (personally I think it HAS TO be pshat) its weird how no one adresses the shailah
Posted 4 months ago # -
Regarding my kasha (which is at the end of page 1 of this thread) on the pasuk and rashi in vayetzei 31,33 - the answer seems to be as follows. We say ein mukdam umuchar batorah does not apply within one pasuk but the torah is not giving us the chronological order in which lavan searched the tents but in order of chashivus. So it says "lavan went to the tent of rachel AND the tent of leah AND the amahos". But not in that order, as proven from the remainder of the pasuk "and he went out of leah's tent and went to rachel's tent", not the amahos.
Rashi was also bothered by this so he points out to us that he searched rachel for a second time BEFORE going to the amahos ie its not chronological order.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Shtiky, I don't think you need to look too far to find that the children of a daughter are not Misyaches to their mother's family. A girl marries out. That's the way it is in all family listings in the Torah.
Does Rashi bring the Medrash that Asnat was the daughter of Dina? Perhaps he is simply disregarding that.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I thought the question was if Osnas was the daughter of Dina (like the midrash, unlike Rashi then) why wasn't she counted among the 70?
why does the kasha have to be only according to Rashi?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Because it is not a Kasha according to the Ramban. So, if Rashi holds that even married women were counted, then perhaps he wasn't going with this Medrash.
Posted 4 months ago # -
The Torah says a few times(this repetition itself requires explanation) that Osnas was the daughter of Potifar-Potifera.So even according to the Medrash that she was the daughter of Shechem and Dina,perhaps for the very same reason she is called the daughter of Potifar, she is also not considered one of the special 'seventy souls'.V'dok-this is a deep concept.(By the way, if the Shvotim regarding many halachos had a din of b'nei noach,then Osnas' yichus goes after her father as is the din by b'nei noach. If so she is part of the nation of Shechem,not Yakov).
Posted 4 months ago # -
As for how Shimon could marry his full sister even though this is assur even for b'nei noach,here is a possible answer to this difficulty.Chazal say dina did not want to leave the city of shechem until shimon swore to marry her. This has a din of Pikuach nefesh since dina staying among the Goyim equals shmad which has a din of pikuach nefesh. Since a ben noach does not have a din of yehareg v'al ya'avor it was mutar for shimon to marry dina. Even though they had a din of b'nei noach, leaving their special belief system had a din of shmad. This is actually a very broad subject but this forum does not allow for lengthy discussions kemuvan.
Posted 4 months ago # -
(By the way, if the Shvotim regarding many halachos had a din of b'nei noach,then Osnas' yichus goes after her father as is the din by b'nei noach. If so she is part of the nation of Shechem,not Yakov).
very interesting because the same midrash states that yaakov tied something around her saying that whoever marries her marries a child of yaakov
Posted 4 months ago # -
What color is תכלת and what color is ירוק? I always thought of תכלת as blue (to remind us of the sea and theכסא הכבוד and שמים) and ירוק as green. But Rashi says at the beginning of תרומה that תכלת is ירוק. I think I saw someone saying it was blueish-greenish. Can anybody add to this? Thanx.
Posted 2 months ago # -
Yes, it seems to be a dark green with a blue-ish tinge. The Yerushalmi adds some more connections. Techeiles Doma Leyarok, Asavim, Yam, Rakia.
Posted 2 months ago # -
Makes sense
The water sometimes is bluish green
Posted 2 months ago # -
Whens the last time you saw the sky green or even blue-green? I've only ever known it either grey or blue.
Posted 2 months ago # -
Each one is similar to the next one. That is why it doesn't say Techeiles Doma Lakisei Hakavod.
Posted 2 months ago # -
Exactly what HaLeivi said,
Except I would've just said "then it would say techeiles domeh l'shamayim" but HaLeivi said it better
Posted 2 months ago #
Reply
You must log in to post.
RSS