Minhag Hamakom

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  • #592561

    Mother101
    Participant

    How does one decide what the Minhag Hamakon is in their city. Does it go by what the majority of the people do, the highest standered…….?

    #699322

    bpt
    Participant

    considering that an average city in the metro area has multiple shuls and kehillas (BP for example has in excess of 100) the minhag hamokom would be the place you call your primary shul.

    We run into a huge problem summertime when multiple kehillas all come together for 10 weeks in one “city” (a colony, as a standalone entity, so I guess you could consider it a city). And boy, do we run into conflicts.

    #699323

    theprof1
    Participant

    Bungalow colonies have always been a minhag problem. Generally the guy who either owns it or the guy who leases will decide. And generally they’ll decide in favor of the prevalent group. But whatever, don’t worry. All machloikes is because one group says we are holier than others, we have more yiraas shomayim. During the summer their should be no machloikes because everybody leaves their yiraas shomayim back home in the city.

    #699324

    arc
    Participant

    theprof getting snarky. classic case of not what I do = not frum.

    #699325

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Arc, I think that was his sarcastic point.

    #699326

    bpt
    Participant

    As a bungalow dweller, I can tell you that the Prof has it pretty much down pat (and the cynics are most likley city folks, so I really can’t expect them to see the beauty of 10 weeks away from the crowds, but that’s another story)

    The bigger issue we run into is the trading of kulos that each family has gotten over the year. So when I come back after the week in the city and get told, “XYZ’s rov said,… or ABC (who is frummer than us in certain ways) buys this product / eats at this place, even though it does not a does have a hechscher we know / accept…

    You get the idea. To make matters worse, the kulos discussed more often than not tread on ground that really should not be fodder for an open forum. But that’s bungalow life mid week.

    So back to the opening post, I’m still sticking with my first volley; the minghag hamokom is decided by the place / group you want to identify / align with.

    #699327

    jay11691
    Member

    People use the term “minhag hamakom” very loosely, and by loosely I mean incorrectly. R’ Moshe Feinstein wrote a tshuva dealing with the question of clothing as minhag: Should I be wearing a long Kappotah or a white shirt/black pants because it is Minhag Hamokom or because my father had this minhag? R’Moshe says that the responsibility to adhere to halachic minhag is very precisely defined. Just because your Zaidie & everyone of his friends did something doesn’t make it a minhag. “Minhag” happens when a cities Halachic authorities approve a specific practice for a Halachic reason.

    It seems doubtful that your bungalow colony (a) has a Halachic Authority, (b) has a Halachic Authority who approved a specific minhag for a specific Halachic reason. So follow your own minhag; unless it is in a public forum where occasionally you may have “al tifrash” which is also not a simple Halacha and not always applicable……

    #699328

    theprof1
    Participant

    People in general will migrate to the shul where they feel most comfortable. This will usually be a shul that is directly part of one’s particular heritage, such as a specific chasidish shtiebel or yeshiva alumni minyan. In these cases there’s no problem with minhag hamokom. If a founding group decide the basis for their shul’s way of avodas Hashem then the clear halocho is that anybody joining after that must adhere, in public, to these customs, whether liturgy or any other type of custom. The halachic basis for adhering to minhag hamokom is from the Torah proscription lo sisgogedu, do not make your communities into agudos agudos, various opposing groups within one community. Hundreds of years ago one community was almsot always a single town or village. In large cities however, the minhag hamokom according to poskim has been decided as the particular bais medrash that you daven in. Jay is basically correct in his post regarding various types of what we might call “minhag”. A family tradition isn’t a halachic minhag. And even so, you do have to be careful with family traditions because they can sometimes go into the gedder of al titosh toras imechoh.

    #1468748

    Joseph
    Participant

    When visiting another place generally you should follow the minhag hamakom when in public in that place.

    As such, for example, should frum women visiting Williamsburg, Boro Park, Meah Shearim and really any Yeshivish neighborhoods in Yerushalayim, refrain from driving in there as per the minhag hamakom?

    #1468785

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, when it’s a minhag shtus, there’s no need to follow it.

    #1468917

    Joseph, we learned if you are visiting you keep your own minhag hamakom. Davka I heard it’s assur to follow the place you are visiting. Let’s say a woman from wears only tichels, as that is the minhag hamakom, goes into another city for a wedding, and she is the only woman wearing a tichel at the wedding since the second city, the inhag is to wear sheitals.

    I learned it’s assur for the woman to wear a sheitel. She has to wear her tichel.

    Minhag hamakom doesn’t go by your shul, community, bungalow colony, nor street. It goes by the top rabanim in the city.

    #1468966

    Joseph
    Participant

    Shopping613: The Halacha clearly is that if you visit another community, while in public there you must follow their minhag hamakom.

    (There’s no “minhag up wear sheitels” davka, rather than a tichel. Additionally, many rabbonim hold it is halachicly forbidden to even wear a sheitel.)

    #1468986

    Look, I’m not a man, but we learned this very clearly in seminary last year, from a very well respected posek and rabbi in Yerushalayim….

    #1469084

    Joseph
    Participant

    You probably misunderstood him. Or he wasn’t talking about when in public in another kehila.

    #1469211

    twisted
    Participant

    Mihag Hamokom has been reported deceased in many locations. And according to twisted’s astute analysis, in other locations it has been resurrected for nefarious purposes.

    #1469413

    Joseph
    Participant

    methinks twisted simply doesn’t like or agree with the halachos of minhag hamakom and would rather do away with it all.

    #1469418

    Joseph- I’m sorry but you are incorrect here as well. It’s far from a rule across the board that you follow the minhag hamokom of a city you are visiting. A yid who is visiting eretz yisroel for yom tov still keeps two days of yom tov due to the minhag hamakom of where he lives. A woman from Meah Shearim visiting Brooklyn continues to wear her shawl even though it is not the minhag there. There are situations (such as in shul) where you’re mostly supposed to follow the minhag hamakom of the shul but please ask your LOR as to which minhagim should be applied when.

    #1469422

    Meno
    Participant

    The minhag hamakom in Boro Park is that women don’t drive?

    #1469428

    Joseph
    Participant

    A yid who is visiting eretz yisroel for yom tov still keeps two days of yom tov due to the minhag hamakom of where he lives.

    In private. In public someone from Eretz Yisroel visiting chutz la’aretz cannot violate the second day of Yom Tov.

    A woman from Meah Shearim visiting Brooklyn continues to wear her shawl even though it is not the minhag there.

    There’s no minhag against wearing a shawl in Brooklyn.

    #1469432

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Borough park is not a community, Its a neighborhood. There are no Kehilas in NYC, the only ones MAYBE in New York is New Square or Kiryat Joel

    #1469440

    Joseph- I think you’re deliberately misunderstanding me here. I said a yid from chutz l’aretz visiting Eretz Yisroel; not vice versa. Also while there is no specific minhag against wearing a shawl she is only wearing it due to the minhag hamakom of where she is from. If you’re supposed to follow the minhagim of the place where you are at the moment wearing a shawl in the summer is simply silly.

    #1469442

    Joseph
    Participant

    What’s the difference vice versa. The point is when in PUBLIC one cannot trample the minhag hamakom of where they are.

    The shawl example is meaningless for the reason I explained earlier. Wearing it violates no minhag.

    #1469453

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “In public someone from Eretz Yisroel visiting chutz laโ€™aretz cannot violate the second day of Yom Tov.”

    Nor in private can he violate Yom Tov. He might daven weekday nusach and wrap tefillin in private, but he can’t do melachah even in private.

    Certain things are subject to minhag hamakom and others aren’t. A sphard can go to an Ashkenaz shul where the minhag is to wait until marriage for tallis, and he can still wear a tallis in that shul, because everyone knows there’s a diversity of minhagim when it comes to when to wear a tallis.

    You have to ask a rav which cases have to defer to minhag hamakom. The assertion that “visiting” makes it not apply is totally incorrect. If I wrap tefillin on chol hamoed and then visit a Sphardic community, I have to do so in private. I can’t walk into shul with tefillin and say, “I’m just visiting!”

    I think Joseph might actually be right that with tznius minhagim, you have to immediately defer to minhag hamakom in public, but you’d really have to ask a rav. With the tichel example Shopping gave: Lubavitchers actually hold by davka sheitels in public, but since this seems to be a daas yachid of Chabad, I don’t think anyone would tell a tichel person to switch to a sheitel in Crown Heights. The different minhagim on leggings would be a better question I think.

    #1469473

    Phil
    Participant

    “The minhag hamakom in Boro Park is that women donโ€™t drive?”

    Joseph,

    You didn’t answer Meno’s question or was that deliberate trolling on your part? At least 50% of the drivers on the busier streets of BP are women. So much for your made-up minhag.

    #1469476

    Hm…icould there be a mcholokes on this?
    The rabbi who taught us in seminary, is one of the main poseks and rav of a large chareidi neighborhood in Yerushalayim. I don’t want to say which because I don’t want to give that information away..

    #1469496

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, 95% of the drivers in Boro Park are men. And of the 5% women, a good portion are coming from outside the neighborhood or are not frum, goyim, etc. Only a very small minority of Boro Park women drive. In Williamsburg it is virtually non-existent among the frum. Same in Kiryas Yoel, New Square, Meah Shearim and other Chareidi places in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1469529

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    There is a shitta that women shouldn’t drive, and it has its basis in halachah. It is not my minhag and I do not have any idea whether or not it’s the majority opinion in Boro Park. However, it is my minhag to not go around calling other people’s minhagim “shtus,” and “made-up.”

    #1469530

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Hmโ€ฆicould there be a mcholokes on this?”

    I believe what your teacher meant is that you don’t fully convert to the minhag hamakom when you’re just visiting. Eg, you still wrap tefilling privately when visiting. However, were I to permanently move to Jerusalem, I might have to stop wrapping altogether on account of minhag hamakom.

    The case of not publicly going against minhag hamakom is not actually about changing your minhag to that of the place. Rather, it’s that you don’t want to be over on the issur of lo tisgodedu. These are technically separate, albeit related, concepts.

    #1469548

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    On busy streets, like 13th Ave. for example, at least 50% of the drivers are women. Regardless of where they actually may live, it means you can’t claim the minhag in BP is that women don’t drive. Unless of course you’re claiming that all those women are in violation of your made-up minhag by driving there, which I wouldn’t put past you.

    #1469561

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, even on 13th Avenue, which has a higher visitor rate than other streets, is over 90% men drivers. Goyim and non-frum people don’t count towards considering a Minhag Hamakom in any event. And just because some people who are frum do something, doesn’t make it right.

    #1469566

    Joseph- when was the last time you were on 13th ave during the work day? It is probably about 50% women driving; probably because their husbands are at work. Women driving in Boro Park is becoming more and more common. I know you probably think it’s because of yeridos hadoros but from the women I’ve spoken to it’s more that they are not all that comfortable with the idea of being driven around by strange men.

    #1469577

    GAON
    Participant

    โ€œMinhagโ€ happens when a cities Halachic authorities approve a specific practice for a Halachic reason.”

    It seems to be that you are confusing two different concepts. Minhag has a couple of components, one is Halachik Minhag, which is if a certain place has accepted a certain psak etc. And then there is the concept of a Minhag , ืžื—ืžืช “ื’ื“ืจ, they are totally different and have different conditions as well.

    E.g a Minhag based on Halacha can be easily overridden in many cases where it was proven that whatever it was based upon was in error, it can be abolished. Whereas, if it’s based upon ืžื ื”ื’ ืœืžื’ื“ืจ ืžื™ืœืชื is much harder to override. In some cases you will need a ื‘ื™”ื“ ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœ ื‘ืžื ื™ืŸ ื•ื‘ื—ื›ืžื” ,etc. It also depends how it was implemented and how the Kabalah of the minhag was accepted – was it accepted by all? Was it for the time being or leDoros? Did all accept it for their kids and kin, etc.

    Just because people do or wear something does not define it as a Minhag…

    In any case, the subject of how and when a Minhag is applied is very complex, each and every case and place is definitely different.
    For all who want to get somewhat familiar should learn through the ืคืจื™ ื—ื“ืฉ ืกื™ ืชืฆ”ื• in Hilchos Yom Tov. He wrote an entire kunteres going through all different scenarios.

    There is a sefer written by the great Gaon Rav Dovid of Karlin called ืขืžืง ื‘ืจื›ื”, which he wrote regarding Jerusalem’s Cherem on learning secular subjects, he claims that Jerusalem has no basis of a Minhag in that case. (It should be available on Hebrewbooks..)

    And in our case, there is no Minhag ื”ืขื™ืจ in most cities.

    #1469578

    Phil
    Participant

    “And just because some people who are frum do something, doesnโ€™t make it right.”

    Joseph,

    First you created a minhag that women in BP don’t drive, so now you get to say that the many women driving cars there are wrong.

    A person who makes stuff up just to declare that other Jews are doing something wrong is in need of pretty serious help.

    #1469619

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    The fact that it is only a small % (given that it has any effect of a Minhag) does not matter, a Minhag has to be accepted by all. If there is one Bes Din in town that doesn’t accept it, it has no effect as a Minhag. Asides that it is not within the boundaries of any Minhag.

    What it does do is that if the custom (it used to be in Israel at one point) that only a man drives then it becomes somewhat of a ืœื ืชืœื‘ืฉ issue. The same way you understand that a woman should not be driving an 18 Wheeler, although there is no specific issur..

    #1469621

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Regarding the Sheitlach mentioned by 613. She is most likely quoting from a Chabad posek. In Chabad they are makpid to go with a wig and not with a tichel. They hold a wig is more efficient (and so did Rav Moshe) then covering with a tichel.

    #1469626

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gamanit:

    In fact it has become less and less common over the past several decades as Boro Park has become far more Chasidic than it used to be. BP used to be a real mix of Litvish, Chasidish, Yeshivish, and even MO but now Boro Park is 90+% Chasidic. And Boro Park women who drive are a small minority.

    In any event, no one disputes that the frum in Williamsburg, KJ, NS, Meah Shearim and all the Chareidi areas of Eretz Yisroel have a virtually absolute Minhag Hamakom that women are not permitted to drive. So while you can nitpick about Boro Park, no one will deny there are Yiddishe Kehilos and neighborhoods where this issue does apply. So this is a relevant point and discussion regardless.

    #1469627

    Joseph
    Participant

    What it does do is that if the custom (it used to be in Israel at one point) that only a man drives then it becomes somewhat of a ืœื ืชืœื‘ืฉ issue. The same way you understand that a woman should not be driving an 18 Wheeler, although there is no specific issur..

    This is correct. But there are additional halachic issues as well. There are sh”ut written about three psakim prohibiting women from driving. There are multiple issues. They were cited in the previous women driving threads here.

    #1469629

    Joseph
    Participant

    Regarding the Sheitlach mentioned by 613. She is most likely quoting from a Chabad posek. In Chabad they are makpid to go with a wig and not with a tichel. They hold a wig is more efficient (and so did Rav Moshe) then covering with a tichel.

    Chabad is the only place I know that has a halachic preference for wigs. An interesting question is what to do if a Chabad woman goes to a place where they pasken that wigs are halachicly prohibited (and no woman there wears only a wig in public.)

    #1469639

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Joseph- she can cover her sheitle with another hair covering.

    #1469640

    Phil
    Participant

    ” So while you can nitpick about Boro Park, no one will deny there are Yiddishe Kehilos and neighborhoods where this issue does apply.”

    Joseph,

    You claim that a woman from Flatbush who needs to run an errand in Williamsburg isn’t allowed to drive herself there because of minhag. That’s the kind of fake halacha we’ve all come to expect from you.

    #1469698

    Joseph
    Participant

    Do you actually think a woman from Flatbush is halachicly permitted to drive through Kiryas Yoel or New Square for an errand despite 1) publicly trampling the minhag hamakom as well as 2) the tznius issue of sticking out as a rare eyesore as the only woman on the road driving a vehicle?

    #1469829

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “An interesting question is what to do if a Chabad woman goes to a place where they pasken that wigs are halachicly prohibited (and no woman there wears only a wig in public.)”

    Whilst there is no such place nowadays, but in theory the Magen G’Borim paskens clearly that you need to follow that halacha, as it is incl in ‘Das Yehudis’ (see MB in Hilchos Krias Shma ch 74)

    #1469841

    GAON
    Participant

    “There are shโ€ut written about three psakim prohibiting women from driving. ”

    Name the Halacha ramifications. Otherwise it has no effect of any minhag — unless it is accepted by ALL in that particular place. (and saying the fact that almost all or no one does it means nothing)

    #1469904

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, Rav Vozner among other poskim have written teshuvos that women are prohibited from driving. You can read them to see the halachic objections. And there certainly are kehilos and places (some mentioned above) that follow these psakim.

    Regarding sheitels, there are places today that follow the Psak that wearing a sheitel-only is assur.

    #1469930

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Joseph : “…95% of the drivers in Boro Park are men. And of the 5% women, a good portion are coming from outside the neighborhood or are not frum, goyim, etc. Only a very small minority of Boro Park women drive….”

    Sheker, v’chazav, Joe. I’m there often and it’s about 50/50 just like Flatbush , Monsey, Crown Heights and everyplace else besides Willy & Monroe.
    You’re not helping your arguments by lying. Can we get a R’ Miller vort on sheker??

    #1469993

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZG, you know nothing of which you speak. You invent “facts” as you go along. What I stated earlier is a very accurate estimation at men in the 90%s driving.

    That’s aside from places like MS, KJ and NS where men are virtually 100%.

    #1469998

    ZionGate
    Participant

    “….ZG, you know nothing of which you speak…”
    Joseph…. You’re not going to get away with this one. You’re lying.
    I have a lot of connection to the neighborhoods I mentioned. There are too many people who know you invented a statistic….. A total fabrication… You think everybody is in Honolulu and slurp up your “facts”.
    Ain’t happenin’ Joe…. Sheker.

    #1470027

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZG, I’ve been on any avenue in the neighborhood more often than you ever dreamed of those streets. Your so-called “connections” aren’t 1/100th as good as my eyes.

    #1470122

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The percentages really don’t matter. As in the example I gave earlier, a Sphard could be in a Litvish shul of 1,000 and be the only bocher in a tallis and it’s not lo tisgodedu.

    Assuring women driving is a real shittah and shouldn’t be taken lightly, but the reality is that these neighborhoods are also aware of those who mattir. You’d really have to ask a posek if it would be lo tisgogdedu. Given that HaRav Kanievsky and HaRav Shteinman both were OK with Ezras Nashim, I doubt we posken as Joseph is saying (since they obviously knew the ambulances would be driving through Williamsberg).

    Joseph, if you could provide an opinion that driving through these neighborhoods as a female is assur, then I’ll accept it. The simple argument that rov yidden in those neighborhoods hold a certain way does not suffice.

    #1470132

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    โ€œAn interesting question is what to do if a Chabad woman goes to a place where they pasken that wigs are halachicly prohibited (and no woman there wears only a wig in public.)โ€

    There are actually such places, and this would be an interesting question if it weren’t about Chabad. It is very well known that Lubavitchers are never choshesh for other’s minhagim no matter the circumstance. I do not know their heter, but it’s clearly their established way.

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