Minhag Hamakom

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  • #1470136

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville: There’s still the issue of the tznius woman being an eyesore as that rare woman who is the only driver in the road (in Meah Shearim, Kiryas Yoel, Williamsburg, etc.). I mean you can find opinions that women can wear pants. (Yes, I know unlike here those are left wing rabbis.) Regarding Ezras Noshim, Rav Shteinman and Rav Chaim weren’t mattir. And EN doesn’t operate in Williamsburg in any event.

    I’ve also mentioned earlier neighborhoods were virtually 100% of the women do not drive (per the Psak of the kehilos rabbonim.)

    #1470144

    How are women driving “an eyesore”?

    #1470152

    Joseph
    Participant

    When she’s the only woman driving in a neighborhood where women never drive. That attracts attention on her, as being out of the norm for a woman.

    #1470153

    Joseph- would you be okay with a woman driving a car where the driver sits on the right side with her husband sitting on what’s usually the driver’s side of the car?

    #1470322

    Phil
    Participant

    “Thereโ€™s still the issue of the tznius woman being an eyesore”

    Joseph,

    Did you read what you wrote before posting it? Creating a fake halacha so you can then call a woman an eyesore? Maybe HKB”H looks down at your eagerness to constantly find fault with other Jews and considers you to be an eyesore.

    #1470325

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Thereโ€™s still the issue of the tznius woman being an eyesore”

    That’s not a halachic reason, and since you didn’t provide any source I’ll assume it’s because you can’t because there are none. Unlike the more left-wing posters, I would be willing to hear you out were you to provide any real evidence. Also, unlike them, I am not belittling this minhag or claiming you’re making it up. However, claiming that lo tisgodedu applies here seems to be made up by you.

    On a side note, Ezras Nashim for sure operates in Williamsberg. I thought they even originated there. Their Satmar volunteers do not drive.

    #1470345

    Joseph
    Participant

    EN *only* operates in BP. Nowhere else.

    #1470387

    Joseph- you didn’t answer my question

    #1470522

    CS
    Participant

    BTW regarding women drivers the Rebbe explicitly told people is not our minhag to forbid women from driving but it depends if it’s the minhag hamakom by them. If it is they need to be careful about it there.

    #1470442

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville, why would you assume that lo tisgodedu is inapplicable?

    #1470440

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gamanit, I don’t understand your question. I understand the technical aspect but not your point. Please explain how what you’re asking is relevant.

    #1470521

    CS
    Participant

    I remember learning in kvuda bas melech that minhag hamakom only works to up a standard, not lower it. And of course it can’t compromise halacha.

    So if I visit anywhere and my Rabbonim hold its best to wear a sheitel, I keep the sheitel.

    But if I know that the wedding im attending in willi the people there only wear black id probably have to wear black but not sure if that’s a Tznius thing or a minhag hamakom thing or both.

    If I go to a bungalow colony where people wear flip-flops I can’t do that because it lowers my standards.

    And the meah shearim lady would not be able to take off her shawl if that is considered a higher standard is tznius.

    #1470423

    Phil
    Participant

    “Joseph- you didnโ€™t answer my question”

    That’s because Rabbeinu Joseph paskens, based upon “Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penima”, that a woman should really ride in the trunk of a car, but certainly no closer to the front than the back seat.

    #1470545

    Joseph
    Participant

    BTW regarding women drivers the Rebbe explicitly told people is not our minhag to forbid women from driving but it depends if itโ€™s the minhag hamakom by them. If it is they need to be careful about it there.

    There you go, Neville. A Psak that “our women may drive in our community, but if they go to a community where driving is forbidden for women then our women are not permitted to drive there.”

    #1470577

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    You are totally missing the point, almost all cities including Jerusalem have no status of an ืขื™ืจ’ as far as Minhag goes. Kiryas Joel might have such status as there is one Bes Din and one Rav that was accepted via it’s residents.

    Also, doing or refraining from something by many individuals does not establish something as a Minhag haMakom. It has to officially established and accepted as a Minhag of the city.

    I don’t think merely passing a city is either a condition to ืžื—ื™ื™ื‘ one to follow it’s customs. You have to at least live there temporarily to be included in the the Minhag hamkom Chiyuv, however it all depends when and what and how the minhag was implemented in the first place. Was is it an official tekanah on all people of the town before and after? Was it that each individual happened to follow certain customs and poskim?

    In any case, most of your comments indicate that you are speaking without having any knowledge on the subject, which is complex. If you want to have any say in the matter, you should learn trough most of the Pri Chadash I mentioned earlier.

    #1470607

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Yeshivish women drive and they drive often in Williamsburg as there are often alot of wedding there

    #1470661

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD, just because something is done doesn’t mean it is correct or proper to do.

    In any event, as some others have pointed out, Kiryas Yoel and New Square (or in Eretz Yisroel, Meah Shearim and a bunch of other places) would be an even better example. If a female visitor came to one of those places it would be improper for her to drive around. (Especially if she isn’t just passing through, but rather stopping and staying in town.)

    #1470324

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Endorsements

    Mods, it’s up to you whether or not you want to let it through. I don’t know of any other way to give a source to refute him speaking on behalf of the Gedolei Hador.

    #1470689

    Joseph- I’m trying to understand what you think the issue with a woman driving is. Is it that supposedly sitting in the driver’s seat is more visible than the front passenger seat or is it somehow “not tznius” for a woman to be in control of a vehicle?

    #1470703

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Actually Joseph in some yeshivish velts, the women drive and the men dont

    Including Rav Neuman..Are you a bigger talmud Chacham than Rav Neuman?

    #1470707

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville, I’m quite familiar with who EN claims supports them. Their claims aren’t accurate. I heard exactly what Rav Shteinman (and Rav Chaim) told them. The videotape is online. A careful listening of exactly what Rav Shteinman told them indicates he did not endorse everything they actually do.

    #1470711

    GAON
    Participant

    “(or in Eretz Yisroel, Meah Shearim”

    “Meah Shearim has no status of an “Ir”, nor has Jerusalem according to many poskim especially nowadays.

    Joseph and others:

    Please refer to the below link for the psak of Rav Dovid of Karlin ZTL (Os Gimel), that the inhabitants of Yerushlayim can not force their customs on other people that move there after any tekanah.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1581&st=&pgnum=48

    #1470715

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gamanit: It isn’t *me* or my issue. Gedolei Poskim have addressed the issue of women driving. And some of them, including written teshuvos from luminaries such as Rav Vozner, ruled against it. As far as what their issue is, I believe it is the driving, not the sitting in the front seat.

    #1470731

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Gaon: Rav Eliyashiv poskened that if an American Ashkenaz who wraps tefillin on Chol Hamoed moves to Jerusalem, he must stop doing so. So, I don’t this it’s as pashut as saying Jerusalem has no sway on minhag hamakom.

    #1470730

    GAON
    Participant

    “including written teshuvos from luminaries such as Rav Vozner, ruled against it’

    While i didn’t see the responsum, I bet it has to do that with “fact” (at the time!) that women there do not drive…but I doubt there is any concrete proof leHalcha that there is any issue.

    Hence, once the facts change there is no issue..

    #1470741

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, Rav Vozner never changed his position. He maintained it was assur until his recent petira. Please read it inside. I believe I put a translation of his teshuva in an older thread here about women driving.

    #1470747

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Please state the basis of the Psak..

    #1470755

    GAON
    Participant

    ” Rav Vozner never changed his position”

    Torah does not work like that, if whatever he based it upon has to do with mere facts – if they change – the Halcha changes. He might have just had such of a custom/chasiddus etc. or thought its not preferable etc. but to say so ‘LeHalacha’ and leDoros you need have proof, especially that other respectable poskim and kehilos permitted…

    #1470764

    GAON
    Participant

    Neville,

    Of course it is not pashut, as I have stated each case and subject is an entirely different status. Teffilin on Chol haMoed is an ‘halacha Minhag” I.e. the Bais Yosef etc. And has been accepted by ALL as the Minhag Yerushlayim/EY hundreds of years. Whereas, customs that have no halachik basis and was never accepted or implementer by all is a different story.

    In the above mentioned case of Rav Dovid of Karlin is regarding teaching secular subjects/language, wherein there was a Cherem against it..

    #1470762

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, the basis for his ruling didn’t change subsequent to his Psak.

    Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner: Shevet HaLevi 4:1.2 and Shevet HaLevi 7:11.

    HaRav Yitzchak Zilberstein issued the same Psak, less than two years ago, against women driving. He quotes the kuntres Rachmei HaRav from HaGaon HaRav Shmuel Halevy Wosner ZTโ€L, in which Rav Wosner writes women should not get a drivers license. He explains that while this is somewhat commonplace today, it is not advised for the actual process of obtaining the license results in compromising her modesty as does actual driving of a vehicle by a woman for this exposes her to sites in the streets and marketplace.

    โ€œื•ืœื™ื‘ื™ ืื•ืžืจ ืœื™ ืฉื”ื•ื ืื—ื“ ื”ื’ื•ืจืžื™ื ืฉืœ ื”ืืกื•ื ื•ืช ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ื ืฉื ืขืฉื™ื ื‘ื“ืจื›ื™ื ื‘ืืจืฅ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื”ืžืคื™ืœื™ื ื›ืœ ื›ืš ื—ืœืœื™ื ื•ื”ืจื’ื• ื›ื‘ืจ ื˜ื•ื‘ื™ื ื•ืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื ื•ื–ื” ืžืฆื•ืจืฃ ืœื›ืœ ื”ืขื‘ื™ืจื•ืช ื”ื ืขืฉื™ื ื‘ื“ืจื›ื™ื ืฉืžื•ืœื™ื“ื™ื ื”ืžื—ื‘ืœื™ื ืฉืžืกื›ื ื™ื ื”ื“ืจื›ื™ืโ€.

    #1470727

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Thank you CS for the source. That refutes my claim lo tisgodedu definitely doesn’t apply here; it also refutes my claim that Lubavitchers tend to ignore minhag hamakom. I guess I had drawn incorrect conclusions from Lubavitchers I had met who weren’t necessarily acting correctly.

    I concede that we can’t say Joseph’s argument is baseless anymore. However, I will still say that we (Litvaks) clearly don’t posken this way in regards to Brooklyn. Kiryas Yoel could very well be different; I’m not sure.

    #1470835

    CS
    Participant

    Important clarification : to the best of my knowledge, the Rebbe’s response regarding women driving only applied to women who had moved to a community where women didn’t drive, not merely visiting.

    I remember hearing this together with another story that one woman drove anyway I guess because she figured it can’t be that bad if our Rabbanim pasken that its fine. End of story : unfortunately she was involved in a bad car accident r”l.

    The Rabbanim who don’t allow women driving base it on the fact that a woman isn’t meant to be “out there” in the world like a man. I don’t know more as it isn’t our shita in lubavitch but that’s what I recall hearing.

    #1470908

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “…the process of obtaining the [driver’s license] results in compromising her modesty as does actual driving of a vehicle by a woman for this exposes her to sites in the streets and marketplace…”

    Not sure what relevance this may have had at some point decades ago but it is totally irrelevant and nonsensical today. A woman can get a driver’s license at the Motor Vehicles department with no issues of tzinius and in NY, NJ and many other states, can request a woman examiner for the driving test. The second comment makes even less sense. A woman walking on the sidewalk is more likely to encounter and see up close a lot more pritzus than driving in her car along the same street.

    #1471010

    Phil
    Participant

    GH,

    If he were more forthcoming, Joseph would actually tell you that “Kol Kevudah” means that women should never be outside their homes at all and shouldn’t even be walking on the sidewalk.

    #1471015

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, take a look at Shulchan Aruch EH 73:1 and Rambam Hilchos Ishus 13:11.

    #1471043

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil: Why are you angry at me at what Chazal, the Rambam and the Mechaber pasken is Halacha? All I offered to you before your outburst were maare mekomos.

    #1471185

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Phil”

    It takes an adom katan to find some quotation from chazal that arguably had a nuanced meeting over a thousand years ago and attempt to suggest it has literal applicability today. Such trolls obviously have serious issues that they are dealing with via anonymous postings on a discussion site and derive some sick satisfaciton from watching the outrage they can muster. The arsonist who sets a fire and then waits around for the sirens and flashig lights are a poor analogy to trolling sick and hateful comments on womens’ right, ethnic superioriy etc and saying “well thats what chazal say”, . are a form of virtual arson. To wish bad outcomes for such trolls is probably stooping to their level.

    Approved, with the disclaimer that chazal’s quotations do not expire with time. – 29

    #1471244

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I see you’re off trolling again about Zionism and trying to weasel out of answering some very simple questions. You quoted the sources and therefore shouldn’t be afraid to answer the following:

    1) Do you only let your wife out of the house twice a month?
    2) How many times have you hit her to make her do what’s right?
    3) Do you support your children past the age of six?

    Avoiding these questions only confirms what everyone already suspects, that you’re nothing more than a sick troll, an constant eyesore (your word) on this site.

    #1471259

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Obviously the learning we bring down from chazal are timeless but hte ability to apply that wisdom to the world we live in is what distinguishes midless trolling from the daas torah we receive from the gadolim and poskin we rely upon in living our daily lives.

    #1471278

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Rav Binyamin [Yehoshua] Zilber, however, argues at length that women driving entails no violation whatsoever of the norms of modesty:

    โ€œon the contrary, she locks herself up in a box called โ€˜automobileโ€™, and we thus avoid [the problems of] walking behind a woman and passing between women, and of gazingโ€
    In the same vein, he rejects as nonsensical the claim that women driving will increase the frequency of their appearance in public:

    โ€œI do not know what he is talking about โ€“ we see that the street is brimming full of women, virtually ninety percent [of people in the street] are women, and by traveling in cars [this percentage] is not increased, but just the opposite, since something that takes her about half an hour to do by foot she can do by car in a few minutes.โ€
    ื”ื ื ื™ ื‘ื–ื” ืœืคื ื™ ื›โ€ื’ ื‘ื“ื‘ืจ ืžื” ืฉื ืชืคืจืกื ืขืœ ื™ื“ื™ ืžืขื•ืจืจื™ื ื‘ืฉืขืจ ื‘ืช ืจื‘ื™ื ื•ื‘ื—ื•ืฆื•ืช ืขื™ืจ ืœืืกื•ืจ ืฉื ืฉื™ื ื™ื ื”ื’ื• ื‘ืžื›ื•ื ื™ื•ืช ืคืจื˜ื™ื•ืช ืฉืœื”ื. ื•ื‘ืืชื™ ื‘ื–ื” ื›ื“ืŸ ื‘ืงืจืงืข ืœืคื ื™ ื›ืชโ€ืจ. ื•ืœื ื–ื›ื™ืชื™ ืœื”ื‘ื™ืŸ, ืื ืื›ืŸ ื ื›ื•ื ื™ื ื˜ืขื ื•ืชื™ื”ื, ื›ื™ ื™ืฉ ืืคืฉืจื™ื•ืช ืฉื ืฉื™ื ื™ืœืžื“ื• ื—ื›ืžืช ื”ื ื”ื™ื’ื” ืืฆืœ ื ืฉื™ื ืžืœืžื“ื•ืช, ื‘ืื•ืคืŸ ืฉืื™ืŸ ืฉื™ื™ืš ืžื›ืฉื•ืœ ื•ืคืจื™ืฆืช ื’ื“ืจ, ื•ื‘ืคืจื˜ ืฉื™ื“ื•ืข ืœื™ ืžื›ืžื” ืจืืฉื™ ื™ืฉื™ื‘ื•ืช ืžื•ื‘ื”ืงื™ื ื•ืžืคื•ืจืกืžื™ื ืฉืœื™ื˜โ€ื ื‘ื—ื•โ€ืœ ืฉื ืฉื•ืชื™ื”ื ื ื•ื”ื’ื•ืช ื‘ืจื›ื‘ื ื•ืื“ืจื‘ื” ืžืกื™ื™ืขื•ืช ื‘ื–ื” ืœื‘ืขืœื™ื”ื ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ ืชื•ืจื” ืฉืœื ื™ืฆื˜ืจื›ื• ื”ื ืœื™ื˜ืจื“ ื•ืœื‘ื–ื‘ื– ืžื–ืžื ื ื”ื™ืงืจ ื‘ื”ืจื‘ืฆืช ืชื•ืจื”, ื•ื’ื ืžืกื™ืจื•ืช ืžืขืœื™ื”ื ื˜ืจื“ื•ืช ื”ื‘ื™ืช ืฉืื™ืŸ ื”ืชืœืžื™ื“ ื—ื›ื ืฆืจื™ืš ืœื‘ื˜ืœ ืžืœื™ืžื•ื“ื• ืœืœืžื•ื“ ื—ื›ืžืช ื”ื ื”ื™ื’ื” ืื• ืœื™ื˜ืœื˜ืœ ืžืžืงื•ื ืœืžืงื•ื. ื•ื›ืš ืžืงื•ื‘ืœ ื‘ื—ื•โ€ืœ ืืฆืœ ื”ืจื” ื‘ื ื™ ืชื•ืจื” ืžื”ื™ืจืื™ื ื•ื”ื—ืจื“ื™ื ืœื“ื‘ืจ ื“โ€™ ื–ื• ื”ืœื›ื” ื”ืœื•ืžื“ื™ื ื‘ื›ื•ืœืœื™ื ืฉื ืฉื ืฉื•ืชื™ื”ื ืขื•ืฉื•ืช ื›ืœ ืฆืจื›ื™ ื”ื‘ื™ืช ื•ืคืจื ืกืชื ื›ื“ื™ ืฉื™ื•ื›ืœื• ืœืœืžื•ื“ ืœืœื ื‘ื™ื˜ื•ืœื™ื ื•ืžืคืจื™ืขื™ื, ื•ืœื•ืžื“ื•ืช ื—ื›ืžืช ื”ื ื”ื™ื’ื” ื•ื›ืœ ื–ื” ืขืœ ืžื ืช ืœื”ืกื™ืจ ื”ืจื‘ื” ื˜ืจื“ื•ืช ื•ื‘ื™ื˜ื•ืœ ืชื•ืจื” ืžื‘ืขืœื™ื”ื, ืฉืื™ืœื• ื”ื ื”ื™ื• ื ื•ื”ื’ื™ื ืืช ืจื›ื‘ื ื”ื™ื• ืฆืจื™ื›ื™ื ืœื‘ื˜ืœ ืžืœื™ืžื•ื“ื™ื ืคืขืžื™ื ืจื‘ื•ืช ืœื˜ืจื“ื•ืช ื”ื‘ื™ืช ื•ื”ืคืจื ืกื”, ื•ื‘ืคืจื˜ ืฉื’ื ืฉืžืขืชื™ ืฉืโ€™ ืžื’ื“ื•ืœื™ ื”ื“ื•ืจ ืฉืœื™ื˜โ€ื ื ืฉืืœ ืžืื‘ืจืš ืชืœืžื™ื“ ื—ื›ื ื•ื™ืจื ืฉืžื™ื ืฉืœื•ืžื“, ืื ืขื“ื™ืฃ ืฉื™ืœืžื“ ื ื”ื™ื’ื” ื›ื“ื™ ืฉืืฉืชื• ืœื ืชื ื”ื’ ื‘ืขืฆืžื” ื‘ืจื›ื‘ โ€“ ืœืฆื•ืจืš ืคืจื ืกื” โ€“ ื•ื”ื•ืจื” ืฉืขื“ื™ืฃ ืฉืชืœืžื“ ืืฉืชื• ื ื”ื™ื’ื” [ื‘ืื•ืคืŸ ืฉืžืกื•ื“ืจ ื“ืจื›ื™ ื”ืฆื ื™ืขื•ืช ืืฆืœ ื ืฉื™ื ื•ื›ื“ื•ืžื”] ื•ืœื ื™ืœืžื“ ื”ื‘ืขืœ ื›ื™ ืขืœ ื™ื“ื™ ื–ื” ื™ื”ื™ื” ืžื•ื˜ืจื“ ื‘ื˜ืจื“ื•ืช ืžื˜ืจื“ื•ืช ื”ื‘ื™ืช ื•ื”ืคืจื ืกื” ื•ืœื ื™ื•ื›ืœ ืœืขืกื•ืง ื‘ืชื•ืจื” ื›ื“ื‘ืขื™. ืื•ืœื ื”ื™ื•ืช ื•ืจืื™ืชื™ ืฉื™ืฆืื• ื‘ื—ื•ืฆื•ืช ืขื™ืจ ื ื’ื“ ื“ื‘ืจ ื–ื”, ื•ื›ืžื• ื›ืŸ ืฉืžืขืชื™ ื‘ืฉื ืชืœืžื™ื“ ื—ื›ื ืžืคื•ืจืกื ืฉืœื™ื˜โ€ื ืฉืื™ืŸ ื“ืขืชื• ื ื•ื—ื” ืžื›ืœ ื–ื”, ื•ืœื ื™ื“ืขืชื™ ื›ื™ืฆื“ ื™ืฉ ืœืขืฉื•ืช ืœืžืขืฉื”, ืื ืขืฆื ืœื™ืžื•ื“ ื”ื ื”ื™ื’ื” ื ืขืฉื” ื‘ืื•ืคืŸ ืฉืื™ืŸ ื—ืฉืฉ ืคืจื™ืฆื•ืช ื•ื›ื™ื•ืฆื ื‘ื–ื”, ื•ืฉืชืกื™ืข ืืช ืžืฉืคื—ืชื” ื•ืฉืืจ ืฆืจื›ื™ ื”ื‘ื™ืช ื•ืคืจื ืกืชื” ื›ื“ื™ ืฉื™ื•ื›ืœ ื‘ืขืœื” ืœืขืกื•ืง ื‘ืชื•ืจื” ืขืœ ืžื™ ืžื ื•ื—ื•ืช. ื•ืื•ื“ื” ืœืžืขโ€ื› ืื ื™ื•ื“ื™ืข ืœื™ ื“ืขืชื•

    #1471320

    Joseph
    Participant

    Takes2: No one disagrees that it is a machlokes haposkim, with great names on both sides, whether women may drive.

    ghdora: The Mechaber didn’t give this Psak “over a thousand years ago.” And Klal Yisroel has accepted the Psakim of the Mechaber given in the S”A as binding. Furthermore, this Psak comes directly from Chazal. And even moreso, no one, that’s right no one – not before the Mechaber and not since the Mechaber, argues against this Psak in S”A (that’s also in the Rambam.)

    #1471349

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Why are you so afraid to answer questions about the very sources you quoted? Is it because you only cited them to criticize other Jews but don’t actually follow them yourself? You do know that such reprehensible behavior is the textbook definition of a filthy troll, correct? Is that how you want to be known?

    #1471360

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If your minhag is to put on Tefilin on Chal Hamoad put it on privately at home but not in public, if it is not the minhag hamakom.

    #1471354

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    I still find it shocking that Joseph considers women an eyesore. That’s not normal or healthy.

    #1471381

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    I know he considers women to be less than men, but until now, I didn’t know he considered all women ugly.

    #1471415

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I saw the Teshuva and there is no mention of anything to do with ื”ืœื›ื”, Rav Wosner agrees you can NOT prohibit it in terms of any Halachik basis and, there is no proof or any source saying driving is any different than just walking on the street. (He agrees you can not bring proof from the times of the Talmud)

    The rest as they will say, ืื™ืŸ ื–ื” ืืœื ื“ื‘ืจื™ ื ื‘ื™ืื•ืช. And is not something that binds anyone to have to be machmir.

    Yes, if the custom would have been that women limit their appearances on the street etc then it has a pshat. But as it is, walk down any street in Bnei Brak and it is full. Same with all other cities mentioned.

    Hence, the concept of ืชืงื ื” ื•ืžื ื”ื’ has no effect there. As it all depends in the circumstances.

    As far as Hilchos Minhogim is concerned nowadays, it has no effect of anything that falls into any category of either Minhag based on Halacha or ืกื™ื™ื’. it seems to be just a Chasidish based custom.

    You have no other source than just the mere saying “that Rav Wosner says so”.

    Rav Zilber and others have a very strong case why yes. They say rather they should not travel on buses along other men, or having to take taxis with men drivers. The fact is, women are much more active today, most women work and need to travel to get there.

    #1471416

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There was a Rav who used to say that the men who always claimed to put women up on a pedestal (to establish their egalitarian credentials) did so only because it made it easier to bash them…sort of like teein up a golfball. While this Rav was not widely known among the frum tzibur (he was a musmach from YU in a MO shul), there is an element of truth to his words. Most of the worst abusers superficially have ehrliche yiddeshe and traditional church affiliations and claim venerate and worship women in their “special role” but the reality are women with black eyes the photo we saw of the ex-wife of Trumps special assistant last week.

    #1471426

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon,

    Rav Vozner is not Chasidish. Everything you just said doesn’t dispute the fact that it is minimally the “minhag” hamakom.

    Are you really trying to claim that if a Kiryas Yoel woman or a New Square woman or a woman from one of the many Chareidi (including most non-Chasidish Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel) communities where women do not drive, wants to drive then she can disregard the community and simply drive at will?

    #1471458

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The word for marriage in hebrew is Nisuim to elevate that is to put each other on a pedestal and only see good in each other.

    #1471528

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    More fake halacha and still trying to weasel out of answering some very simple questions. You quoted the sources and therefore shouldnโ€™t be afraid to answer the following:

    1) Do you only let your wife out of the house twice a month?
    2) How many times have you hit her to make her do whatโ€™s right?
    3) Do you support your children past the age of six?

    Avoiding these questions only confirms what everyone already suspects, that youโ€™re nothing more than a sick troll, an constant eyesore (your word) on this site.

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