Minhag Hamakom

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  • This topic contains 121 replies, has 25 voices, and was last updated by  GAON 9 months ago.
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  • #1471545

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, I’m not going to respond to your angry rantings regardless of your having repeatedly copied and pasted the same outburst about four times already on this thread.

    If you have something semi-intelligent to ask, I’d be happy to respond – as I have in the past.

    #1471554

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    The moderators approved my questions every time I posted them. It’s obvious to them and everyone else that there is no anger or ranting in my post. I asked very simple questions regarding the sources you cited and you’re on the spot to respond. The only angry person here is you and now you’re running scared from your own sources, like the bully you are. Answer the questions or stop posting.

    Please do not infer any opinions as to the tone of a post simply because it was approved.

    #1472103

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Please define the Tekanah, which category of Minhag is it based upon – is it based on Halacha or סייג?

    If its non of the above then it has no status of a “minhag”.

    However, as mentioned above it could be a Tzenius based issue of Das Yehudis if its a place were driving is considered strictly a male’ act or not beKavodik . To have a better understanding, there are places ( by Chassidim) where a Rabbi/Rebbe will not drive a car. I heard from someone this is the case in Williamsburg and Kiryat Joel that most that call themselves Rebbes/Rabbis i.e. there do not drive.
    Whereas, in the Yeshivish world every Rosh Yeshivah and their wives drive.

    Hence, the Rabbanim in lets say KJ and New Squire (where there is one Bes Din etc) can say to all their Kehillah members that the above is considered within our community as Lo Tilbash and not Tznius etc. But I doubt this will be MeChayev anyone else who passes by to have to abide.

    Also, once the status changes and somehow starts becoming the norm (whatever reason involved) it automatically has no basis.

    #1471968

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Phil, it is obvious to everyone that your posts are the ramblings of a loony. We’ve all stopped taking you seriously, which is why Joseph isn’t responding. The adults are having a real conversation about halachah now, you so can simmer down.

    #1472292

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Also, once the status changes and somehow starts becoming the norm (whatever reason involved) it automatically has no basis.”

    True for das yehudis only. I think Joseph has given ample proofs that what he’s talking about is a halachic shittah, not just an arbitrary societal norm. That being said, I’m tempted to agree that it has no weight for a passerby. The only source so far suggesting it does is CS mentioning the Chabad Rebbe, which is of little consequence to us.

    #1472394

    GAON
    Participant

    “. I think Joseph has given ample proofs that what he’s talking about is a halachic shittah”

    Sorry, but as a I quoted, even Rav Wosner agrees there is absolutely NO proof of any “Halachik” status to say it is Asur (he quotes one that seemed to have compared it to the Gemarah in beg. of Pesachim wherein it states that it is not the custom of a woman to ride a donkey, which has long been disputed…). The only Isur is just as a Tekaneh for practicality and the above etc, but not any Halachik status.

    #1472409

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If a frum woman from KJ or NS (where driving by women is generally discouraged) is flying from NY to visit family or friends in Cleveland or LA,, she obviously needs to rent a car and drive herself or take a taxi or Uber from the airport (and risk driving with a man). Either way, minhag hamokem becomes irrelevant when it cannot be observed in practice outside the “makom”.

    #1472454

    Phil
    Participant

    Neville,

    My intention was not to interrupt the halachic discussion, which is the CR at its finest. It was to compel Joseph to explain his citing of RAMBAM Hilchos Ishus 13:11, which states that a husband should not allow his wife out of the house more than twice a month. This RAMBAM is not kept in our world and you can only imagine what any Posek would say to a husband who attempted to restrict his wife in such a manner. Joseph’s citing this RAMBAM and his description of women as “eyesores” seems to indicate that not only is he against women driving, he’s against them even being out at all. If that’s what he actually believes, let him come out and say it. If not, then he’s just trolling and not interested in a real halachic dialogue.

    #1472461

    laskern
    Participant

    It bases itself that Dinoh got punished because she was a yetzonis as it says כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה the honor of a woman is being inside like the angels told by Avrohom about Sarah Imenu הנה באהל. Times have changed because women had to go to work. As men are used in seeing them outside, they don’t get affected.

    #1472468

    laskern
    Participant

    The above logic that currently women go like that is used by the Aruch Hashulchon 75:7 about davening in front of an uncovered hair but the Mishnah Berurah over there argues on it.

    #1472559

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Gadol, I also clearly don’t hold that it’s assur for women to drive, but don’t just make stuff up and pretend you know what you’re talking about.

    Satmars don’t “general discourage” women driving. They posken that it is assur, and your assertion that they suddenly ignore this halachah when they leave their hometown is completely false and you obviously just made it up. Firstly, I have to ask, how did that lie even make practical sense to you? These women don’t have licences and never drive; how could you possibly think they could get behind the wheel of a rental and suddenly know what they’re doing?

    Having a male cab driver on busy streets is not yichud (I think according to anyone).

    #1472846

    TheWizard
    Participant

    It’s a machlokes haposkim whether driving is okay for women or not. Let’s all leave it at that and not stick our noses between the giants. Everyone should follow their own posek.

    #1472868

    GAON
    Participant

    Wizard,
    “It’s a machlokes haposkim whether driving is okay for women or not”

    That was not what the discussion was really about, just read the earlier comments.

    #1472934

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Maybe Wizard’s point is that we should stop the women driving diversion and return to the original point.

    I understand Satmars also posken that a woman’s tights must have a visible seam. Would a woman have to switch to these types of tights when going to Kiryas Yoel? Essentially this is the same question, but hopefully with an example that won’t get people as riled up.

    Phil: Sorry about the harshness. I see what you were getting at now; my problem was more with you seemingly claiming that Joseph was making up this Minhag altogether. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that there is a minhag among certain Chassidim for women not to drive.

    #1473005

    GAON
    Participant

    “Gadol,
    If a frum woman from KJ or NS (where driving by women is generally discouraged)”

    What do you mean by “discouraged”? Are they against being an official owner/steady driver of a vehicle as a “kevius” and have no issue with non- Kevius (the logic can be, as I think Rav Wosner writes, that the issue is the circumstances that driving can bring to…which is not the case when driving only when really necessary).

    In any case, theoretically speaking, it will depend what the Minhag was in the first place. If it is a Tznius issue then I don’t see the diff of being OOT has to with it.

    #1473038

    Phil
    Participant

    Neville,

    No problem! I’m very familiar with their views on women driving and respect their right to conduct their communities in that manner. The issue was Joseph’s fake halachos extending this to BP, insinuating that a woman visiting from outside those communities must be driven and his use of the pejorative “eyesores”. On a personal note, my wife drove while we were in KJ last summer and we saw plenty of women visitors driving; none of the residents even batted an eyelash.

    From Joseph’s previous postings and his sources, this wasn’t simply about women driving; it was about his opposition to women being out of the house at all.

    #1473505

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, while you’re focusing on the Rambam, I also cited, in the same sentence, the Shulchan Aruch on it. We do pasken from S”A even if not necessarily from the Rambam. The Shulchan Aruch doesn’t pasken two times; the Mechaber only psakens that women shouldn’t go outside too much, without specifying a number. This isn’t a “fake halacha”, Phil. This is an actual Psak in the Shulchan Aruch.

    What is “too much” is probably different for each woman and each circumstance. But it certainly is Halacha l’maaisa that women should not be outside unnecessarily or too much. For example, girls or women certainly shouldn’t be congregating on street corners shmoozing. This is Halacha from Chazal, Shulchan Aruch and everything in between and since.

    And this Psak from the Mechaber plays a direct part for the shittas that rule that women aren’t permitted to drive.

    Regarding eyesores, if you c”v saw a Jew eating a cheeseburger in McDonald’s that too would be an eyesore. Ever seeing a Jew doing something inappropriate is an eyesore.

    #1473535

    GAON
    Participant

    “And this Psak from the Mechaber plays a direct part for the shittas that rule that women aren’t permitted to drive.”

    As per Rav B Zilber, it is the other way around. The above is only another reason for them to indeed drive. As they will not have to walk on the streets and travel by bus or by a male Taxi driver.

    The fact of reality is women are on the streets of BB, Jerusalem etc.

    #1473540

    Phil
    Participant

    “Mechaber only psakens that women shouldn’t go outside too much, without specifying a number”

    Joseph,

    How does one implement this halacha nowadays? Since you cited this source, please tell us how often do you let your wife and daughters out of the house?

    #1473603

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, if someone doesn’t drive the strong likelihood is that they’ll be outside less often than if they’re a licensed driver with a car.

    #1473695

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    Gaon, if someone doesn’t drive the strong likelihood is that they’ll be outside less often than if they’re a licensed driver with a car.

    That’s simply untrue. Most women go out of the house three/four times a day (to wait for busses, go shopping, and/or go to work). Do you really think they would be outside more when they can accomplish their shopping far faster with a car?

    #1473757

    GAON
    Participant

    “How does one implement this halacha nowadays? Since you cited this source, ”

    Why is this question posed to Joseph, it is a good question that rather does need an explanation. I am not saying it needs to be literally followed nowadays, but you still need to apply it somehow.

    And many uphold an acquisition of a car will significantly decrease ones appearance on the very street, and thus contribute to the above.

    Joseph – unlike here in the US, winter is not cold and women do not need a car to increase their outdoor expenditures, especially with the excellent and affordable Aged bus service all over the country.

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