YWN Coffee Room

YWN Coffee Room » Decaffeinated Coffee

1. popa_bar_abba
   Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a man; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily cynical.

   I just got off the phone with the OU, and I want to advise everyone of the fact that the OU is simply not a reliable organization.

   There is a product called Dirty Chips sour cream and onion flavor, which carries an OU--not OU-D. In fact, the ingredients state sour cream, and it is almost certainly not batul.

   When I called, they were aware of it, and said they has sent an email to their list about it.

   Is that sufficient? How about a recall? How can they rely on the fact that they sent an email? Do they do that with neveilah also, or just with basar b'chalav?

   Truth is, I'm not very impressed with their other divisions either. Their JLIC arm regularly places and pays the salary for conservative "rabbis" from YCT.

   The chassidim are correct- maybe you can't trust these hechsherim.

   Posted 11 months ago #

2. Shopping613
   The Awarder, President, and founder of SUC (Single Username Certificates). Contact me to join.

   Just move to israel, they don't have the OU there!

   Posted 11 months ago #

3. rescue37
   Member

   If you think the chassidishe hechsherim are better you are gravely mistaken. the chips don't say parve, so you can't assume automatically it is parve. You need to use some common sense.

   Posted 11 months ago #

4. WolfishMusings
   The Wolf

   How about a recall?

   My guess would be that the OU does not have the power to demand a recall.

   In any event, if you're going to avoid the OU, then you'll have very few options to eat. The OU not only supervises OU foods and establishments (obviously), but is used by many, many other hechsheirim (both in manufacturing of foods and eateries) for ingredients and such.

   just with basar b'chalav?

   Oh, please. This is not a case of basar b'chalav -- it's not as if the chips themselves were cooked with meat -- they're still 100% kosher. In addition, very few, if any people, are going to cook their potato chips with meat.

   The Wolf

   Posted 11 months ago #

5. Shopping613
   The Awarder, President, and founder of SUC (Single Username Certificates). Contact me to join.

   Ummm assuming it is oareve IS common sense......right? It should say pareve....sure like they are going to actually write that its pareve! They dint even do that in Israel!

   Posted 11 months ago #

6. ohr chodesh
   Ain Chadash Tachas HaShemesh - Joseph

   The chasidishe hechsheirim are machmir on many chumras.

   Posted 11 months ago #

7. DaasYochid
   a singular mind

   They put out an alert in March.

   http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/consumer/alerts/dirty_potato_chips_sour_cream_and_onion_potato_chips/

   Maybe they didn't feel a recall was necessary - it does say "sour cream" on the package.

   Posted 11 months ago #

8. nitpicker
   Member

   The product is obviously not pareve, it contains sour cream.
   using ou-d on an oviously milchig product is an almost recent change in policy. sort of belt and suspenders. It really shouldnt be necessary. However, now that it is the policy, some people may not bother to read ingredients. Always a mistake. So for such people they should correct it. But it is not something to get very excited about.

   done.

   Posted 11 months ago #

9. SayIDidIt™
   Member

   Shopping, t here is OU in EY, however, from what I understand it is alot worse then OU America.

   Posted 11 months ago #

10. nitpicker
    Member

    Also, it is important to realize that hecherim rely on each other.
    most will accept the hecher for an ingredient when approved by most of the others, unless it involves a chumra they adhere to.

    Posted 11 months ago #

11. zahavasdad
    Member

    The chasidishe hechsheirim are machmir on many chumras.

    Yeah they Slap a label on twizzlers and Charge extra for it on a "Chumra"

    Posted 11 months ago #

12. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    My guess would be that the OU does not have the power to demand a recall.

    If that were true, that would be a much bigger problem than the occasional oversight. They should have a contract with their supervised companies forcing a recall when a serious kashrus concern arises.

    The OU not only supervises OU foods and establishments (obviously), but is used by many, many other hechsheirim (both in manufacturing of foods and eateries) for ingredients and such.

    Although that's true, other agencies can pick and choose which products they allow based on OU supervision. The typical consumer is not as well educated as other kashrus agencies to be able to make such distinctions.

    This is not a case of basar b'chalav -- it's not as if the chips themselves were cooked with meat --

    Correct.

    they're still 100% kosher.

    We can nitpick on the term 100%.

    In addition, very few, if any people, are going to cook their potato chips with meat.

    Agreed. In a broad sense, though, the issur of basar b'chalav includes eating dairy with meat, as well as within six hours (according to each one's minhag).

    Also, aside from bb"c, many are machmir not to eat milk products which rely on the heter of chalav stam, so mislabeling a product is problematic anyhow.

    My original limud z'chus still stands, though.

    Posted 11 months ago #

13. nitpicker
    Member

    after posting I realized I had fallen right into your trap.
    You really are a very clever troll.

    Now how many people think that trolling like that is funny and good and how many think it not good?

    Posted 11 months ago #

14. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    If that were true, that would be a much bigger problem than the occasional oversight. They should have a contract with their supervised companies forcing a recall when a serious kashrus concern arises.

    I don't know whether it's true or not. As I said, it was simply my guess. I don't know enough about the OU's policies and contracts or the economics behind whether or not the threat a mass recall would cause a company to reconsider whether or not to obtain a hechsher at all.

    Also, aside from bb"c, many are machmir not to eat milk products which rely on the heter of chalav stam, so mislabeling a product is problematic anyhow.

    I'm willing to bet that anyone who is machmir WRT cholov Yisroel AND looks at the ingredients (the first thing *I* would do if I saw something such as this) would know better than eat this.

    The Wolf

    Posted 11 months ago #

15. gavra_at_work
    ^caution

    The chasidishe hechsheirim are machmir on many chumras.

    Yeah they Slap a label on twizzlers and Charge extra for it on a "Chumra"

    Parnassah for Yeedin is always a "chumra" that should be upheld. Rav Shlomo Kluger was well known te be Machmir on hand matzos to give Almanos Parnassa.

    Posted 11 months ago #

16. ohr chodesh
    Ain Chadash Tachas HaShemesh - Joseph

    The Twizzlers with the special heimeshe hechsher comes off a special run with special supervision by the heimishe hechsher. So, yes, even that is a special chumra (contastant kashrus supervision) that many consumers insist upon and willingly pay a premium for. (They could buy the regular Twizzlers, easily, for less.) It is entirely legit and there are other similar examples.

    Posted 11 months ago #

17. zahavasdad
    Member

    Parnassah for Yeedin is always a "chumra" that should be upheld. Rav Shlomo Kluger was well known te be Machmir on hand matzos to give Almanos Parnassa.

    if they want "Parnossa" then make your own licorace. Dont slap a worthless label on twizzlers or Mike and Ike

    Posted 11 months ago #

18. nishtdayngesheft
    Member

    zahavasdad

    It is clearly a different run. They are saving money by just adding a sticker instead of making a whole new package.

    And no one is making you eat these twizlers. No one is making you eat any twizlers for that matter. Those who prefer the additional hashgacha are willing to pay for it. They spend money on halchichik hakpados while you spend on narishkeiten.

    Vos art du? It is not your money and no one is forcing it on you.

    A worthless lable maybe one tha has your name on it, because yuo do no research, thses labels are from peopl who have actually gone out and done something.

    Posted 11 months ago #

19. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a man; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily cynical.

    I sent Dirty chips a facebook message. I wrote:

    Hi, I am a kosher consumer and appreciate that your chips carry kosher certification. However, I have found something very troubling regarding your certification.

    For kosher consumers, it is very important to distinguish Dairy foods from non-dairy foods. This is because we are forbidden to eat dairy food within 6 hours after eating meat. The kosher symbol therefore has a special designation for dairy--the addition of a "D"; and if the D is not present, it is implied that it is non-dairy.

    Today, I noticed that some of your sour cream and onion flavored chips are carrying the regular kosher designation without the D--implying that they are non-dairy. However, the ingredients show that they are in fact dairy.

    Even though the chips say they are sour cream flavor, it is not obvious that they are indeed dairy, and the fact that the kosher symbol designates them as non-dairy could easily lead someone to not read the ingredients and rely on that.

    I would hope that you would be willing to recall those bags, as a measure of goodwill towards your kosher customers. I also recommend switching to a different kosher certification, as it is extremely disturbing that the kosher certifier would allow this to happen, and not immediately correct it.

    Thank you.

    Wolf: Get a grip; being oiver on basar b'chalav d'rabbanan is not a little deal. And it is very likely that someone would.

    Posted 11 months ago #

20. zahavasdad
    Member

    You can ask any Rov who knows about Kashruth , Go ahead and ask

    What is the difference between the regular Twizzlers and the one with the Sticker

    They will tell you NOTHING

    Do you think Hersheys changes anything for either run...No its the same everything

    Posted 11 months ago #

21. SaysMe
    O pen, says me

    Chofetz Chaim-A Lesson a Day. See today's lesson

    Posted 11 months ago #

22. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    I don't know whether it's true or not. As I said, it was simply my guess. I don't know enough about the OU's policies and contracts or the economics behind whether or not the threat a mass recall would cause a company to reconsider whether or not to obtain a hechsher at all.

    I assume that they *can* recall a product if necessary. If I assumed otherwise, I could not rely on the hechsher. They may have to consider whether the company would have otherwise not obtained a hechsher, but that doesn't mean I have to eat it.

    I'm willing to bet that anyone who is machmir WRT cholov Yisroel AND looks at the ingredients (the first thing *I* would do if I saw something such as this) would know better than eat this.

    I, too would look at the ingredients of something labeled "sour cream" before assuming it was pareve. But it's still the OU's responsibility to label it OU D.

    Actually, one of the reasons I would check the ingredients is because these kinds of mistakes happen all the time.

    Posted 11 months ago #

23. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Wolf: Get a grip; being oiver on basar b'chalav d'rabbanan is not a little deal. And it is very likely that someone would.

    Why did you include your reply to Wolf in your Facebook message to Dirty Chips?

    Also, do you really think people would be so naïve as to assume that sour "cream chips" are pareve? As a matter of policy, I agree that they should insist on a recall, but I find it hard to believe that people would really be nichshal.

    From a halachic perspective, I just want to point out that waiting between meat and milk is not as chomur as eating them together. For example, there's no issur of milchig/fleishig pas of a type which would not be eaten with the other min (e.g. dairy cake) although one might eat it within six hours. (That's one p'shat, another is that bread might actually go into a hot kli rishon and cause anissur d'oraiso).

    Posted 11 months ago #

24. Feif Un
    Proud Modern Orthodox

    PBA: You use Facebook? But it's 100% assur! At the asifa they never said Facebook is ok! Do you know what kind of shmutz can be found there? Don't you know that dozens of marriages were broken up by Facebook? [/sarcasm]

    Posted 11 months ago #

25. coffee addict
    Once killed a Troll with his bare hands

    pba
    your choice is fine by me
    what you do with your life has no bearing on the rest of us

    Posted 11 months ago #

26. lakewhut
    Member

    don't keep OU but you must agree with the internet asifa?

    Posted 11 months ago #

27. 147
    -105

    I just got off the phone with the OU, and I want to advise everyone of the fact that the OU is simply not a reliable organization.

    How dare anyone slam the OU. We couldn't even fathom what our life would be her in the USA without OU, so we must be grateful for the incredible service with which they are serving our community.

    Posted 11 months ago #

28. nishtdayngesheft
    Member

    Zdad,

    One would hope there is nothing different. With the candy. But there is definitely a different run with a mashgiach. That costs. Generally there is not a mashgiach there at all times. The extra time for the mashgiach costs and there are those who are along to pay for that.

    But you haven't answered why you are so bothered. No one is making you eat any twist let alone these. Why are you such a bitter person who thinks anything not done exactly the way you like it is terrible. It is terribly haughty of you to think that you are the be all. And if I may let you in on something, you are quite obviously wrong very often.

    Posted 11 months ago #

29. nitpicker
    Member

    "But it's still the OU's responsibility to label it OU D.
    "

    No it isn't. And popa doesn't think so either.

    Posted 11 months ago #

30. mom12
    Member

    being the wife of a mashgiach I must tell you there is a difference.. ou will rely on the standard 'CIP'- which is the cleaning of machines requird by gov't.. the chassidishe ba'alei machshir will not rely on this and kasher according to halacha, and have a mashgiach temidi as opposed to ou who show up maybe once a week..
    suit yourself.

    Posted 11 months ago #

31. yaff80
    Member

    P.B.A:
    1) Why didnt you mention to them the health issue for those that have allergies to milky products?
    2) To say the halacha requires to wait 6 hours is a clear mistake. The halacha states a person should wait between meat and milk. period. Then came a discussion how long to wait. The minimum is 1 hour, machmirim wait into the sixth hour and those who are more stringent than that leave a gap of 6 full hours. The 6 hour wait is not halacha but minhag!
    3) If the hechsher group were not aware there was milk in the product, does this not make it chashash chalav akum?

    Posted 11 months ago #

32. oomis
    Member

    Forget about chips that actually say SOUR CREAM on the label; you would have to be from another planet not to know this is DAIRY. I am more outraged that Trader Joe's is now making their delicious pareve, and allergy-safe (for my granddaughter, who cannot have even traces of nuts) chocolate chips, MILCHIG or produced on milchig equipment. We cannot the Jewish-owned companies' chips in baking for her, because they are not reliable regarding the exposure to traces of nuts, and are labeled inaccurately.

    Posted 11 months ago #

33. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    "But it's still the OU's responsibility to label it OU D.
    "

    No it isn't.

    They have a policy to label all milchig products as such, and a responsibility to follow through.

    If there were no such policy, and everyone was on their own, I might agree with you.

    And popa doesn't think so either.

    Maybe

    Posted 11 months ago #

34. mdd
    Member

    Popa-bar-Abba, mistakes happen. This is not so bad -- who would assume that sour cream is parev?

    Posted 11 months ago #

35. BTGuy
    Member

    Hi Wolf,

    What kind of statement is that in that if you are not going to eat OU, you will not have a lot to eat?

    That point is irrelevant, at best, to the point PBA is bringing up regarding the reliability of the hechsher.

    In fact, there is a big concern in what PBA is saying and it should not be poo pooed.

    I heard a speaker from the OU and they have daily issues checking on the validity of their hechsherim with such things as if Rabbis visit the food sites enough, rather than just call in to see if everything is fine.

    Additonally, the OU admits to relying, to a degree, our help in notifying them of any concerns we may have about food facilities, packaging and labeling, etc.

    A valid point and something to watch out for. All the efforts we put into eating correctly, l'shaim, shemayim, we do not want to ruin it, chas veshalom, by eating something anyway, as you are vaguely suggesting.

    For all those who think something is not right and you call the OU...THANK YOU!

    Posted 11 months ago #

36. zahavasdad
    Member

    I dont know if PBA is trolling or not, but he might have a point, Kashruth is not a Joke and is a serious endevor.

    People who engage in Snake oil hashgaches like the worthless label on the twizzlers are not only engaging in genevah by making people pay more, they are engaging in Genevas Daas by fooling people into thinking that there is a big difference between the regular twizzelers and the one with the sticker when almost every Kashruth Rabbi says there isnt.

    If we are willing to critize the O-U for not putting OU-D on Sour Cream Chips, we must be willing to critize those who insist on putting a worthless sticker on Twizzlers.

    For the record I have banned those products from my house and have asked stores that I shop in not to carry them and if they continue I will buy those products elsewhere.

    Posted 11 months ago #

37. yaakov doe
    Member

    Am I the only one that realizes that sour cream chips must be milchig? Isn't it obvious to all?

    Posted 11 months ago #

38. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    What kind of statement is that in that if you are not going to eat OU, you will not have a lot to eat?

    It's a statement of practicality.

    I expect that if the OP feels that the OU is unreliable, he should not only not eat OU products, but not eat anything/anywhere that relies on OU ingredients. This includes just about every restaurant and other kosher eating establishment in the US, as well as many food manufacturers whose mashgichim provide them with a list of approved products to use (most of which are probably OU certified).

    If the OP truly feels this way, I expect him to do due diligence into every product before he buys it to determine if it contains any OU-supervised products. I also expect him to ensure before he goes anywhere to eat that they do not allow any OU products in their kitchens.

    Good luck.

    The Wolf

    Posted 11 months ago #

39. mdd
    Member

    Yaff80, there is a machlokes how much one must wait between fleishig and milchig. The overwhelming majority follows the the 6-hours opinion.

    Posted 11 months ago #

40. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a man; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily cynical.

    To those suggesting it is obvious they are milchig: that is not true. Most such flavored chips do not use real flavoring. I am also familiar with some wraps which are "jalapeno cheddar" and are not milchig.

    To thosw who think I am not serious: you don't know me well enough I see.

    The company would not be concerned about allergies, since it is in the ingredients.

    To yaff80: you don't know how to learn. The gemara says the halacha is you are required to wait until the next meal. The rishonim debate whether it means until you bench and eat again, or 6 hours which is the usual amount of time. Rema paskens that it really means just to bench and wash againan but that the proper thing to do is to wait 6 hours like the other rishonim. People who wait 1 or 3 are not concerned with those rishonoim, and are merely being machmir within the opinion that you just need to bench and wash again.

    Posted 11 months ago #

41. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    I am more outraged that Trader Joe's is now making their delicious pareve, and allergy-safe (for my granddaughter, who cannot have even traces of nuts) chocolate chips, MILCHIG or produced on milchig equipment.

    Outraged? What did they do wrong? Disappointed, I could understand.

    Posted 11 months ago #

42. rescue37
    Member

    actually IIRQ the REMA actually says an hour

    Posted 11 months ago #

43. btdater
    Member

    PBA-

    1. Learn some middos, insulting other peoples learning abilities and an entire kashrus organization is inappropriate.

    2. Even if you are correct, and the OU is questionable, going in the coffee room to vent is not the proper venue. I see you say that you called the OU, very nice, but did you speak with your own Rav before labeling the largest kashrus organization in the world treif? Have you ever met anyone affiliated with the OU? I have met several of the rabbeim and asked my questions to them directly, I didn't hide behind a phone and talk to whoever mans the phones.

    " People who wait 1 or 3 are not concerned with those rishonoim, and are merely being machmir within the opinion that you just need to bench and wash again."

    Do me a favor why don't you go to washington heights, clap on the bima of breurs and tell them that their all over on the aveira of baser vchalov. Then while your at it, why don't you stop by lakewood yeshiva and tell them the same thing, since Im sure you know they don't wait a full six hours,

    I am no talmid chacham, but one thing i am good at is spotting sincerity. PBA you lack it. You claim to be such a yeira shamayim but you spend your time attacking other Jews in the coffee room. Do me a favor instead of responding this and insulting me by calling me a moron or something, talk to your rabbi or open a sefer and learning something. I know ill be learning for you.

    Posted 11 months ago #

44. mdd
    Member

    Rescue, the minhag by now is le'hachmir, and it has been so for a long time.

    Posted 11 months ago #

45. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Learn some middos

    An interesting intro to a vitriolic post.

    Do me a favor why don't you go to washington heights, clap on the bima of breurs and tell them that their all over on the aveira of baser vchalov.

    He said no such thing. He simply commented that they follow certain Rishonim, not others.

    Then while your at it, why don't you stop by lakewood yeshiva and tell them the same thing, since Im sure you know they don't wait a full six hours

    That's based on a particular interpretation of the shittah of six hours. How do you infer that PBA was disparaging that approach?

    You claim to be such a yeira shamayim

    I didn't notice such a claim.

    Posted 11 months ago #

46. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    PBA: Laws about allergy information are very severe and explicit nowadays.

    Posted 11 months ago #

47. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    The Chasidishe Hashgachos rely on the OU very often. So, if you turn down the OU, everything else comes along.

    This story looks to me more like an oversight. Why would you have to disparage the whole organization?

    Posted 11 months ago #

48. Tomche
    Joseph

    The Chasidishe Hashgachos rely on the OU very often. So, if you turn down the OU, everything else comes along.

    That is not exactly accurate. The Chasidishe hashgochos do not accept the OU hechsher for all products. They don't accept them on certain OU foods that the OU allows certain kulos for, that they don't accept.

    So sometimes one can not rely on the OU for certain food products while relying on the OU for certain other food products, due to different kashrus standards.

    Posted 11 months ago #

49. oomis
    Member

    Outraged? What did they do wrong? Disappointed, I could understand. "

    "Outraged" (kinda tongue in cheek), because the Orthodox Jewish community where I live, has reelied on TJ products and fully supports them. It's a potch in panim to arbitrarily make such a decision.

    It's kind of how I felt when Duncan Hines went milchig for a while. I sent them e-mails and made calls to complain on the basis of the fact that I would never buy their products again if they were produced on DE, because it would be of no value to me, as I only baked with their mixes for fleishig meals, on the occasions that I needed to use a mix rather than bake totally from scratch. I further pointed out that not only would they be losing money from all the kosher-keeping Jews who felt as I do, but also from the general public, Jew and non-Jew alike, who are lactose intolerant or allergic. Money talks apparently, and DH wisely went back to OU Pareve after a short while and a loss of lots of gelt.

    Posted 11 months ago #

50. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a man; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily cynical.

    actually IIRQ the REMA actually says an hour

    The rema says 6 hours. The rema however is clearly paskening m'din like the rishonim that you need only bench and wash again. This is obvious because there are only 2 shittos in the rishonim, so if you hold less than 6 hours, you must hold like the rishonim that you only need to bench and eat again.

    DY: thank you. Particularly for noting that I have never made any claims to being frum at all.

    Sam: the package even has it listed in ingredients and in allergy info. However, I usually don't read ingredients nor allergy info before eating a product labeled pareve.

    Haleivi: I'm sure it was initially an oversight. However, I find it shocking that when I called, they admitted to knowing about it, and were relying on the fact that they had sent an email to their list. They even told me that I shouldn't complain because I apparently didn't care--evidenced since I am not subscribed to their emails.

    Posted 11 months ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.