March 7, 2016 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1214479
Hashgachos have their own rules for how they do things. Dont assume that if the star-K does it this way, the OU does too and vice versa. This is true of any hechsher. The only guarantee is that if you assume it will eventually come back to bite you.March 7, 2016 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1214480
“Almost all cookies and Cakes say Pareve on this (Most baking is done with butter) usually you see Pareve on Candy too as Candy is either made with butter or Milk Chocolate”
That’s only true by the heimishe brands, which you don’t seem to like. Only the Twizzler’s with heimishe stickers say pareve (on the heimishe sticker) the Twizzler packaging does not say pareve on it.March 7, 2016 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1214481
I find it interesting that the cover story of this weeks Crain’s is called “The High Cost of Kosher” (I find the title offensive in that it plays into the typical anti-semitic rant about the “Jew Tax”)
The cover of Crain’s has pictures of OU seal tape.March 7, 2016 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1214482
This is copied and pasted from the OU website:
XIV. Pareve Foods:
A. OU policy is that dairy or meat items are labeled OU-D and OU Dairy or OU Meat respectively. An item that is labeled OU without a suffix can be assumed to be pareve. Nonetheless, we recommend checking the ingredients listed on the label, since on rare occasions, the OU-D is inadvertently omitted.March 7, 2016 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1214483
I was in the supermarket and I looked at Swiss Fudge Cookies and it said O-U Pareve on the packageMarch 8, 2016 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1214484dovrosenbaumParticipant
Stella d’Oro are labeled Pareve to avoid confusion because the company threatened to go Dairy.March 8, 2016 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1214485
Regarding Stella Doro cookies. Search for a NY Times article titled “how orthodox jews saved an italian recipe” that was written when word came out Kraft foods would not switch to dairy chocolate.March 8, 2016 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1214486
Such a well researched article, it said that the cookies used to be labeled OU-P for kosher pareve.
Everyone knows that OU-P means kosher for Passover and the cookies were never labeled that.
Just a stupid assumption by the writer. Typical of the NYT.March 8, 2016 2:24 am at 2:24 am #1214487
If you read the article till the end There is a correction that points out what you do.
I remember this article because one of the people quoted is a neighbor of mine and we were so impressed that we knew someone cited in the times.March 8, 2016 2:55 am at 2:55 am #1214488
The story that showed up when I searched did not have the correction. I looked if there were one.
Either way it was an egregious error.March 8, 2016 3:11 am at 3:11 am #1214489
Stello Doro I belive is the only non-jewish brand of cookie that is not dairy. Most commercial cookies and cakes that are not jewish brand are dairyMarch 8, 2016 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1214490–Participant
Writing Parve on cookies is to stand out because most cookies are made with milk.March 8, 2016 4:04 am at 4:04 am #1214491
They write pareve because they changed the packaging well in advance of the planned change in recipe to reflect an oud. After the outcry they printed pareve. Just another example where the kashrus symbol is as much a marketing tool as it provides kashrus status.March 8, 2016 4:55 am at 4:55 am #1214492
From what I know, many of the products that scream “non-dairy,” while being OU-D are actually dairy equipment. As of now, the OU doesn’t have a dairy equipment hechsher. The main buyers of non-dairy creamers (vegans, people with allergies, etc) couldn’t care less if the equipment were considered dairy by halachic standard. The OU does not specify when things are dairy equipment because they think it would cause people to be lax and eat it with meat. Unfortunately it causes a whole different problem of people assuming things are only dairy equipment when they’re full-blown milcheg (eg. plain Oreos are only dairy equipment, but certain flavors are milcheg; the hechsher provides NO way of differentiating).
All that said, I think the grievance brought up here about products advertised as non-dairy is totally legitimate. Hechshers aren’t provided for non-pareve sandwich bread lest it be eaten with meat. If there’s a concern that people will assume bread to be pareve without regard for the hechsher, how much more so for products that explicitly claim to be non-dairy?March 8, 2016 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1214493
All that said, I think the grievance brought up here about products advertised as non-dairy is totally legitimate. Hechshers aren’t provided for non-pareve sandwich bread lest it be eaten with meat. If there’s a concern that people will assume bread to be pareve without regard for the hechsher, how much more so for products that explicitly claim to be non-dairy?
We pasken that that din is only relevant to bread. Don’t make up new gezeiros.
I explained why it’s not a legitmate chashash; you need to check for a hechsher.
Also, most of these products are dairy, and I’m not a fan (see my previous posts) of turning your brain off and blaming the OU.
If you want to cross out the worse NON DAIRY with a Sharpie as soon as you get home, go right ahead.
The words NON DAIRY are government mandated, so the OU can’t tell them to take it off, so I don’t blame them for certifying it.March 8, 2016 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1214494
Non dairy is not a kashrus statement. Don’t blame the ou because you make it into one. Non dairy is an allergen statement. A kashrus symbol is a kashrus statement.March 8, 2016 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1214495
Who said anything about blaming the OU? The Taz and Magein Avraham hold that it applies to more than just bread. You’re correct that we don’t pasken like that, but don’t accuse me of “making it up.”
I’m not claiming the OU should stop hechshering in these situations. I think you understood my point, but, naturally, you chose to be rude instead.
“It’s always the consumer’s fault” is not a legitimate rebuttal. If Oreos went from dairy equipment to dairy, and thousands of people erred because NOTHING changed about the hechsher, would that still be their fault?March 8, 2016 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1214496
Who said anything about blaming the OU?
I think the grievance brought up here about products advertised as non-dairy is totally legitimate.
You’re correct that we don’t pasken like that
V’su lo midi, except perhaps to add that they would probably agree here.
I’m not claiming the OU should stop hechshering in these situations. I think you understood my point.
So what are you saying? I apparently did misunderstand your point.
If Oreos went from dairy equipment to dairy, and thousands of people erred because NOTHING changed about the hechsher, would that still be their fault?
Yes, because every time you ask the OU or they post info about Oreos they say it’s subject to change and keep checking back. The OU’s obligation in that scenario, IMO, would be to make sure to announce the forthcoming change a few months in advance.March 8, 2016 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1214497
BTW, earlier, someone posted (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-kashrus-is-not-reliable/page/5#post-603103) that the OU is makpid on frum ownership plus a mashiach temidi. This is not true, they are only makpid on mashgiach temidi. I looked up Le Marais, and the owner is not Jewish.March 8, 2016 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1214498
I dont know about all hashghchas, but most will take non-jewish ownership if they abide by their rules. Maybe some hemish ones wont, but the larger ones all doMarch 8, 2016 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #1214499
I would like to emphasize that a kashrus symbol is there for people to look at and read.
So one should note if it says OU-D or not and if there is in fact a hashgacha or not.
The same with restaurants, ,you should see if they have the hashgacha and if the certificate is up to date. I make it a point to check and have at times seen out of date certificates. I have walked out of establishments that only had an old certificate and could not demonstrate that it was renewed.
However, in the case of the candies first referenced to, it seems even the OU recognized that it could be confusing based on their response. One would not suspect that they should have to look for multiple hashgochas on one packages (unless you are looking for the added sticker)March 8, 2016 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1214500
They also recognize that certifying some varieties of Jolly Ranchers while others are not kosher can be confusing, yet continue to do so.March 8, 2016 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1214501
The ou sends out updates and Alerts almost daily if you’re concerned about changes in the status of Oreos or anything else they certify sign up to receive their Alerts. Also sign-up with the other agencies as well as Alerts from kashrus magazine or Kosherquest.org or similar organizations who will send updates from all agencies. The Alerts are issues it is noones fault except the individual who doesn’t sign up to receive them.March 8, 2016 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1214502
They continue to do so because they maintain you should look for their symbol and not assume.
The ok certifies many of the pebbles cereals but not the ones with marshmallows they also expect you not to assume. It is not an unreasonable expectation. If you (not you personally) insist on assuming I think purchasing heimishe brands is the safest way to go.March 9, 2016 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1214503dovrosenbaumParticipant
Le Marais is grandfathered in from the days when the OU didn’t require frum ownership. Now, if a place wants the OU, they need to have fru ownership.
I know friends who are mashgichim and they say the difference is like night and day between a frum owned business and a non frum owned business.
And for food service, kashrus is very expensive; the agency charges a lot for use of the name and their endorsement, while the mahsgiach temidi should be paid at least $20 an hour if bedikas tolaim is involved, in my opinion.March 10, 2016 5:55 am at 5:55 am #1214504
I was in the supermarket and I checked out the Twizzlers and Mike and Ike with the Hemish stickers. The stickers had a O-U AND some Hemish Hashghcha that was basically illegible.
The sticker said it was a special run for Blooms.
Dont believe it for a second! Unless the Volover was involved, and I dont know if he is, if you think the holier than thou hechsher even knows what those places look like, you are on something.March 10, 2016 6:05 am at 6:05 am #1214505
Ahin Un OHare said:
OU tends to be very lenient in Kashrus supervision.
Example: The nearly 1,000 (!!!) Milchig coffee creamers that they certify are labeled NON-Dairy in large letters (based on some government rule), but the casein (cheese) ingredient is listed in fine print.
I have queried them on this, but have gotten evasive replies.
My Posek says this is a serious issue!!!
Far be it for me to say something about your posek but its clear he doesnt know about this issue and to say its a serious issue is completely and totally INCORRECT!
The FACT is that the govt doesnt treat Casein as dairy (Casein and caseinates are often found in foods that boldly proclaim themselves “nondairy.” This is simply a leftover from the old days, when dairyness was legally defined as containing milkfat), while the Torah does, because is comes from milk!
It is for that reason that “non dairy” creamers such as Carnation etc are CORRECTLY marked OUD.
Sometimes rabbonim need to investigate before making a claim that is false.March 10, 2016 6:37 am at 6:37 am #1214506
Your comment about Oreos is a bit off. I spoke to my friend and this is what he said….
The OU really doesnt want to deal with DE symbols as it is confusing to the consumer. The problem is that many people were hounding the OU about Oreo so they investigated and found it to be DE at worst.
Please understand, the OU contract with Nabisco is for the items to carry the OUD symbol. This means, if the company wants to reformulate and add milk to that formula, they may do so contractually without letting the OU know about that change ON THE CONDITION that the new oreo ingredient was already approved for use in that plant. Furthermore, there are times they would have to submit new labels for approval, however my friend was unsure if they would have to in such a case.March 10, 2016 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1214507
Unless the Volover was involved, and I dont know if he is, if you think the holier than thou hechsher
There are some good heimishe hechsherim (including but certainly not limited to the Volover Rav), and some almost worthless ones. People need to do their research, and not assume that a fancy symbol with Hebrew words automatically means it’s good.
You’ve identified the wrong yetzer hora here, though. This is not so much about gaavah, it’s more about gelt.
Re: non dairy creamers. I was in the supermarket last night, and the two or three brands they carried did not say NON DAIRY in a very visible place; the product description was “coffee creamer”.
The ones I remember seeing were Nestle Coffee-Mate and International Delight.
Your comment about Oreos is a bit off.
What did I say about Oreos that is off? I think all I said was that the status might change and you need to stay updated.March 10, 2016 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1214508
I asked the OU about a specific product last week, that is labeled and marketed by the manufacturer as a dairy free/casseine free product, with no obvious (and after confirming with the OU, even not so obvious) dairy ingredients listed either, yet carries an OU-D hechsher. They replied that in truth it is a pareve item “made with heat on dairy equipment”, but people got way too confused with the OU-DE symbol and its ramifications so they did away with it and label it OU-D. While they told me it is truly pareve made on dairy equipment, I should check back in 90 days to verify status, since formulas can, and do, change. In other words, this is the status today. dont assume in 6 months ago that the status quo remains. What WILL be constant is the OU-D.March 10, 2016 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1214509CopyMachineParticipant
This is not a light issue for many reasons. The first thing to consider is that publishing that an organization is not reliable without knowing exactly who will read it, is for sure Lashon Hara.
Nothing in this world is black and white.
For a person living in Timbuktu, that doesn’t have access to Badatz and Velove products, the OU is perfect. For them to only eat from the highest standards is inconceivable. (think people on shlichus or someone newly observant.)
For somebody in Yerushalayim, New York, or Monsey, for instance, with a strong Jewish background there may not be an excuse to eat something with a simple OU.
I actually know of somebody who called up the OU to ask about a specific cereal. The Rabbi there asked her where she lives, and when she replied Williamsburg, he told her, “Shame on you. You live in a place where the highest standard of kashrus is available. This cereal was not made for you. Go buy a Jewish brand.”
The OU is a tremendous organization, providing the world with kosher products, but because of their tremendous size, it is very hard to have a mashgiach tamidi at every single plant. That is why mistakes happen.
I have respect for the OU, although I do not eat products with only the OU hechsher. Given my current situation in life, I have access to more careful “mashgiached” food, but i would never make away with the OU, and neither should you.March 14, 2016 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1214510
Copy Machine: You’re exactly right. You summed up, very well, the clear divide among posters on this thread. Some of us, myself included, could not possibly stop relying upon the OU. The only non-OU hechshers around me are LESS reliable than the OU. It requires great lengths just to avoid tablet K.
Somehow I seem to have be thrown on the anti-OU side of this discussion. That is absolutely not accurate, and I would like to clear my name. I said that those complaining about the non-dairy creamers have a legitimate complaint. I never said that the conclusion should be to reject the OU or even to reject those items. I just think that other posters were being a bit too dismissive. The halachah has always considered the uninformed masses. When it was decided that dairy bread is not kosher, it wasn’t being assumed that 100% of the Jewish population was the type of people who would do their research before every purchase and every meal, and sign up for any and all kashrus alerts. We have a lot of very stringent and well-informed people on these forums. Nobody here would make the mistake of using non-dairy (but actually dairy) creamer with meat. These arguments are centered around a different side of the community.
And on a side note, I PROMISE that not everyone eating oreos is checking the OU site for alerts every time they go to put one in their mouth, not even on the stricter side! If they switched to real dairy, the change would go undetected by thousands.March 14, 2016 5:09 am at 5:09 am #1214511CopyMachineParticipant
It would go undetected by thousands, until someone has an allergic reaction ch”v!
Coming from an epi-pen family with super severe allergies to everything from milk to fish to peanuts, to a rare allergy disease caleld FPIES, I hav e been blessed to really appreciate what kashrus means.
It was pointed out here that non-Jewish cookies are usually made with dairy products. Can you imagine what its like to have to be terrified every time you or your child allergic to dairy wants to grab a quick bite to eat outside of the house? Restaurants, bakeries – all off limits.
kashrus protects not only our neshamos, but our bodies as well. I know that, b’ezras Hashem, a fleishig takeout or restaurant will almost always be safe for our family, since according to halacha, neither fish nor dairy will cooked together with fleish.
Isn’t that amazing? Just be keeping kosher, my blood pressure level and sanity are automatically preserved, as well my risk minimized.
Isn’t that just beautiful?March 14, 2016 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1214512
Neville. Regarding Non Dairy Creamers. You do not have a valid complaint. Non Dairy, Dairy Free are NOT a kashrus statement. They are industry allrgen statements that mean item does not contain lactose. there may be other milk derived ingredients that do not contain lactose and satisfy the allergen statement and disclosere but do not satisfy dairy free as far as kashrus is concered. The only kashrus statement being made by any hechsher is their name or symbol on the packaging. Is it the fault of the OU or any other organization that consumers are not familiar with allergen statements?March 14, 2016 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1214513
NC, what do you want the OU to do? Do you want them to refuse to give a hechsher to creamer which says Non-Dairy on it? Should they not allow Oreos to have a D on it? Should they not disclose that the only issue is equipment?
CM, aren’t Oreos already a dairy allergy sensitive product?March 14, 2016 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1214514popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Should they not allow Oreos to have a D on it? Should they not disclose that the only issue is equipment?
bring back DEMarch 14, 2016 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1214515
How many times do I need to say I’m not blaming the OU? This is the last time. It’s not my fault you all can’t get over yourselves.
DY: Yes, they should have a dairy equipment hechsher like the CRC does and like any common sense organization would do. It’s a different halachic status than full blown dairy.
Apush: Not everyone would necessarily realize that. Some people are new to keeping kosher. Not everyone is as brilliant and wonderful and perfect as you… Now, would you like to repeat your argument so that I can repeat mine yet again? Would that help?March 14, 2016 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1214516
“Should they not disclose that the only issue is equipment?”
They could, and if the formula changes and it becomes a true dairy product and everyone starts yelling, you told us it was DE someone will start a new thread – the OU is still not reliable 🙂
They are damned if they do, damnded if they dont.March 14, 2016 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1214517
bring back DE
Then people will eat it with fleishig.
And one person will eat it with fleishig and then start a thread in the CR saying how unreliable they are.
They can’t win.March 14, 2016 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1214518
Also, even if they brought back DE, what if Nabico wanted to put plain OUD on it?March 14, 2016 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1214519
“Then people will eat it with fleishig”
That is the OU’s official reason for not having the DE hechsher. Some of us disagree with the argument, some Kashrus agencies decide differently.
I don’t personally see the kind of person who would willingly mix DE food and fleishig as being the type to post an “OU isn’t trustworthy thread” on the YWN forums. There’s a difference between the kind of person who might miss an OU alert here and there (ie. all of us) and the kind of person who would purposely eat DE with meat. Yes, it’s kind of a lose lose, but we all have the sides we’ve picked. The choice is between preventing willful transgression while risking accidental (OUD only) or risking willful transgression while preventing accidental (The case for DE).
Why would Nabisco want an OUD over a DE? Do they have any say?March 14, 2016 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1214520
How is it not preventing accidental transgression?
They would want plain OUD so that they don’t need to print new labels if they switch. My question is if they should have a say. If not, there’s a risk they’ll go without OU.March 14, 2016 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1214521
Ahh I see. They could chose a different hechsher. Sorry, I misunderstood the first time.
I’m not including mixing meat with dairy equipment as an “accidental transgression.” I believe that when the OU talks about the risk of people doing that, they are speaking of people who willingly make the choice. Only using OUD could cause accidental transgression for the reasons mentioned now by several of us on this thread. I don’t really feel like repeating.March 14, 2016 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1214522
I’m not talking about repeating – I think whether or not the OU should use DE, and the reasons for each position, is not where this thread was.
I think the concern is not intentionally mixing it up. The OU’s job isn’t to force people to keep kosher against their will.
I think their concern is that people will think DE needs only be treated as milchig as a chumra, or that the only problem is actually cooking it with meat.
I would guess that they changed that policy because of cases that people were nichshol, not b’meizid, but b’shogeig.
You can’t anticipate and prevent every possible mishap, but I guess that within reason, they try to do what they can.March 14, 2016 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1214523popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think their concern is that people will think DE needs only be treated as milchig as a chumra, or that the only problem is actually cooking it with meat.
Maybe they shouldn’t put a hechsher on anything milchig or fleishig, in case people think that if it’s kosher you can mix it with anything else kosher and that basar b’chalav is only a chumrah.
For that matter, maybe they shouldn’t put a OU-D on Thomas English Muffins, since the shulchan aruch says it’s assur.March 14, 2016 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1214524March 14, 2016 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1214525Torah613TorahParticipant
The other day, I purchased pareve english muffins. Didn’t realize they existed (outside Brooklyn, anyway)March 14, 2016 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1214526
Fiber One makes parve English Muffins. There are pas Yisroel ones with a special sticker.March 15, 2016 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1214527
“I think whether or not the OU should use DE, and the reasons for each position, is not where this thread was.”
You mean to say a Coffee Room thread went off topic? No. Way. …May I ask about your positions on Zionism?
“You can’t anticipate and prevent every possible mishap, but I guess that within reason, they try to do what they can.”
Exactly. The OU thinks their technique prevents more mistakes, the CRC thinks a dairy equipment hechsher does. Popa and I seem to side with the CRC, you seem to side with the OU on this. I believe that eventually the OU will be forced to bring back the DE in order to keep up with competition.March 15, 2016 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #1214528
The OU web site says that the dairy in the English Muffins is less than 1/60th and that’s what they rely upon. I don’t really see how it applies here, but they certainly know better than I, so I do eat OUD English Muffins.
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