OU kashrus is not reliable?

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  • #1214428

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Do you mind sharing how you make those symbols?

    Find an ASCII chart (Google is your friend).

    Find the ASCII value of the character you want to include, hold down the ALT key and with your numeric keypad (NOT the numbers on the top of the keyboard), type out the four digit ASCII code.

    The Wolf

    #1214429

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I was in the supermarket and I checked out the Twizzlers and Mike and Ike with the Hemish stickers. The stickers had a O-U AND some Hemish Hashghcha that was basically illegible.

    The sticker said it was a special run for Blooms

    #1214430

    Mention of the illegibility was an unnecessary put down. And I’m a bit confused about what point you’re making.

    #1214431

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    The OU is a great organization. But the heimishe hechsherim are good, too. They provide additional oversight, especially as far as bishul yisroel goes. A great example is waffles. The OU position is that waffles are not oleh al shulchan melachim. Others disagree, as brought down in the great Sefer Shulchan Melachim, by Rav Bar Shalom. There, he says waffles are oleh. An OU waffle goes by the lenient opinion; there’s no mashgiach in an Eggo factory lighting fires. But a heimishe brand like Smacking Good or Frankel’s likely would have a mashgiach turning on the fires there.

    #1214432

    Thanks.

    Any other products besides waffles and tuna? I am also aware of potato chips being a shailah, but my posek is meikil.

    #1214433

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    Beans, potatoes, such as frozen fries, frozen latkes, blintzes,knishes, possibly cranberries, and quite a few more foods.

    #1214434

    If you live in Israel you can avoid OU. Although most people look at us like were weird as immigrant americans not actually eating OU but whatever

    #1214435

    Ahin Un OHare
    Participant

    OU tends to be very lenient in Kashrus supervision.

    Example: The nearly 1,000 (!!!) Milchig coffee creamers that they certify are labeled NON-Dairy in large letters (based on some government rule), but the casein (cheese) ingredient is listed in fine print.

    I have queried them on this, but have gotten evasive replies.

    My Posek says this is a serious issue!!!

    #1214436

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    Huh? They certify those as OU-D. What’s the issue?

    #1214437

    It says non-dairy. So people who look for an OU and then turn their brains off might see the OU and not the d.

    #1214438

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    That’s the fault of the consumer, not the OU

    #1214439

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    My Posek says this is a serious issue!!!

    Just because your posek says its a problem for you, doesnt mean its a problem for everyone. Other posekim hold differntly

    You poseks opinion only applies to you and anyone else who follows him

    I am fairly confident that Rav Schecter knows the Halacha too

    #1214440

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    There’s really no reason at all to bash the OU.

    They’re the leaders in kashrus, truthfully, and invest heavily in research and training. Their internship program for mashgichim is incredibly huge and I have the materials binder from it, which is full of information on all sorts of stuff. Star K is excellent, as well, in this department.

    In the NYC area for food service, I trust OU far more than the Kof K, Vaad of Queens, and many heimishe hechsherim because they require shomer shabbos ownership PLUS a mashgiach temidi, they check vegetables thoroughly using a shmattah bedikah, they require separate kelim for fish in meat establishments (not required al pi halacha, but a good policy), and have all of their policies written out in a way that’s very mesudar. The Vaad of 5 Towns is also highly recommended in the NYC area.

    #1214441

    That is ridiculous. I know people who work for those hechsherim, and from what I know, they are both excellent.

    If you’re so makpid on frum ownership (which is a good idea), call the hechsher and ask.

    I didn’t know the OU was makpid on frum ownership.

    #1214442

    Joseph
    Participant

    Also realize that specific hechsheirim that were good years ago might be less so today. Or vice versa. Speaking generally.

    #1214443

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD

    “Just because your posek says its a problem for you, doesnt mean its a problem for everyone. Other posekim hold differntly

    You poseks opinion only applies to you and anyone else who follows him”

    But you seem to insist hat no one can disagree with the OU hashgocha. And that there are not things that other hashgochas would do that could possibly be better.

    R Shaechter is a huge Talmud chochom, but not everyone follows his psakim.

    #1214444

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I didn’t know motsi shem ra was more lenient than kashrus. People are so concerned about what goes into their mouth, but they have no issues bashing the ou and others over the dumbest things.

    #1214445

    Ahin Un OHare
    Participant

    Allowing Milchig (dairy) products that they certify to be labeled NON-DAIRY in big bold letters is a serious offense: “Lifnei Iver Lo Sitain Michshol” (It is forbidden to cause another Jew to sin)!

    Someone may consume these during a Fleishig (meat) meal!

    The fact that in smaller print they say OU-D or dairy is not a reliable solution.

    In this and other matters, they cannot be impartial. I wonder how much revenue they would lose by refusing to certify these — nearly 1,000 (!!!) — products!

    #1214446

    dullradiance
    Participant

    I have children who are allergic. I read the ingredients very carefully.

    Personally, I avoid non-kosher at the same level. When I see a hechser, it is a starting point then I look at the ingredients.

    Consider Kedem grape juice. A nice chassidish hechsher – but product contains potassium metabisulfite so children get one cup at each shabbos meal – no more. (There are brands of grape juice that do not have any sulfites.)

    #1214447

    abcd2
    Participant

    The OU is a tremendous organization and does not at all deserve this Motzi Shem Ra. The ugliness of this has been resurrected from three years ago,just because somebody has a personal beef with their Kashrus does not give a right to bash an organization compromised of many talmidie chachomim. The whole topic should be taken down and erased from your servers.Forget about Kashrus that enters your body look at what so many commentators are spewing out

    #1214448

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    I agree, any lashon hara against the OU is uncalled for.

    #1214449

    ..but against Kof-K and Vaad of Queens is fine.

    #1214450

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    DY,

    Would you eat fresh broccolini (not Bodek or greenhouse grown), mesclun, spinach, thyme, rosemary, etc. that were merely washed but not checked with a shmattah?

    #1214451

    I have plenty of lashon horah to share about the OU on bugs, if you’d like.

    To answer your question, I try to stay away from fresh produce which is subject to infestation, including those checked by some of the organizations which you said are good.

    I also happen to know that the Vaad of Queens does shmattah checking.

    #1214452

    abcd2
    Participant

    @Daas not funny (Disclaimer:I do not have my head in the sand no person or organization is perfect) However there is no way that this is acceptable.

    This whole discussion was started to publicly find fault and to to take to task a cadre of very dedicated individuals.

    But I will be Dan lekaf Zechus perhaps there were other reasons for this topic as well some of which I’ll list below.

    A) Our Rabbonim have never talked like this about the OU (or any other Frum organization) that has done so much for the Klal in such an undignified disgusting and humiliating manner.

    I guess some commentators feel they must do the Oilam a favor and show they know better then our Rabbonim.

    B) Perhaps the Rebbeim/ Roshei Yeshiva of Satmar, Lakewood, Torah Vodaas, Chofetz Chaim, Chaim Berlin, Skver, and Riets among many others must be shown how wrong they were for bringing in Kashrus experts from the OU for training seminars for their yungeleit. Im sure glad all the true experts here are showing the Roshei Yeshiva how misled they were.

    C) To Show some of us how low one can sink into Lashon Hara, Kina,

    Gaava, Onaas Devarim and Motzi Shem Ra due to misuse and anonymity of the internet.

    #1214453

    I do not have my head in the sand no person or organization is perfect

    That was precisely my point.

    #1214454

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    I hold very highly by the OU and their standards.

    #1214455

    Except for the things that you don’t.

    Every hechsher has things you won’t and things you will hold of, but the overall reliability of the ones you disparaged is every bit as good as that of the OU.

    #1214456

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    150 years ago if you shected a animal and had a shala about the lungs almost any Rav could answer it. Most could answer Kashrut questions as well

    Today most cannot answer Shaalas about Kashruth (I am not talking about the kind if you accidently mixed meat and milk or other common mishaps that could happen in your house, but more from the food making end before it reaches your table) People who are throwing darts have no idea what goes on before the food even reaches the store and most Rabbanim dont either, Many are even industrial secrets. The OU is one of the few places that are experts in this field. They are one of the few that has access to the industrial factories and really knows what going on.

    #1214457

    old man
    Participant

    It is interesting that today, the Mirrer Yeshiva in Yerushalayim announced that they would no longer feed their talmidim chicken under the hashgachah of the Eidah Chareidis because those chickens were….treif. The Mirrers are not alone, they are just following what everyone else already knows.

    #1214458

    Allowing Milchig (dairy) products that they certify to be labeled NON-DAIRY in big bold letters is a serious offense: “Lifnei Iver Lo Sitain Michshol” (It is forbidden to cause another Jew to sin)!

    Someone may consume these during a Fleishig (meat) meal!

    The fact that in smaller print they say OU-D or dairy is not a reliable solution.

    It should be. NON-DAIRY, no matter how big and bold the letters, does not mean kosher. So the consumer needs to check for a hechsher, and when he finds one, it’s got a D next to it.

    Not a valid complaint.

    #1214459

    Joseph
    Participant

    old man: I contacted a talmid and a magid shiur in the Mir today and both told me that fleishigs was served this evening, including chicken, that is (only) under the Eidah’s hashgacha. I don’t know if you’re intentionally spreading misinformation or you’re misinformed but either way consider yourself corrected.

    #1214460

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Old man,

    Typical misinformation.

    A shaila arose, they considered stopping serving for one day. There was a birur on shaila and they are serving chickens now from the eidah. And it started and was finished on Friday. So you are absolutely wrong.

    I have this from a very reliable source.

    #1214461

    old man
    Participant

    Joseph: So you know that the eidah chareidis is in turmoil over the chickens that they themselves pasken are treif. It’s safe to assume that you don’t call your friends in the Mir every day to find out which chicken they ate for lunch or dinner. The scandal is plastered over every news site that’s interested in this issue,and your friend’s chicken from yesterday doesn’t make it go away. Please read , and in Hebrew, the news that’s coming out, rather than the laundered English stuff that comes your way. Denial is comfortable, but it doesn’t change the truth.

    #1214462

    Joseph
    Participant

    No, old man, you’ve been rightfully censored on this site before when you’ve engaged in your misinformation campaigns and you’re now again demonstrating how this is a repeated issue with you. As ndg pointed out above, there was an internal shaila whether a certain procedure was appropriate. It was quickly answered and resolved. Of course that didn’t stop the purveyors of yellow journalism from hawking a story for pageview shekels.

    #1214464

    twisted
    Participant

    Too bad the Mir story is false. It would have started a necessary dialogue on the use of commercial systems of scale that necessitate and institutionalize a level of tzaar baalei chayim that is unaaceptable if were only seen by the public. My great grandfather shechted chickens for his family and for his neigbours in the outhouse of his New Jersey home. Those birds were older, healthier, unmedicated, and likley a healtheir protein to consune. I don’t live in the past, I just have not eaten an animal protein in a very long time, because my standards are such that it is too costly. or not worth the bother. As for hashgachot, one can avoid the issue by strictly limiting the use of things that come in bags,boxes, tins, and jars. In my old life I had implicit trust in the OU. Them I found out that they subcontract to those in whom I have implicit distrust.

    #1214465

    old man
    Participant

    You guys make me laugh, as if I fabricated a story which was all over the chareidi websites. I don’t work in the kashrus business, and I can’t spread misinformation. Everything I said can be found on line, but sorry, it’s all in Hebrew which almost none of you know how to read. It’s convenient for you to take the Mir Yeshiva and use it as a smokescreen. I don’t know or care what the Mir Yeshiva feeds its’ talmidim, and you all conveniently ignored the point.

    The point is simple. One of the most respected shochtim in the Eidah claimed that 20 % of the chickens were treif. The Eidah’s rabbonim shechted a few sample chickens, decided that they were kosher and closed the case. If you all think that no one is raising their eyebrows here or that everyone has ignored the esteemed shochet’s warnings, then have fun with your head in the sand.

    The truth is that the system has trapped itself. The Eidah is so so kosher and every other hechsher is so not kosher enough, that when someone blows the whistle, the only thing to do is outright denial, case closed. Good way to deal with it, but here a lot of people see right through it. After all, there’s no business like the kashrus business, is there?

    If you all think, which you do, that I am a misinformation machine, thanks for the honor. All my information is from Torah-true sources.

    #1214466

    Joseph
    Participant

    You’re funny old man. A comment ago you admitted your source was the yellow journalism in the Hebrew websites. And now that you were called to the carpet on the untruths of your presentation, those yellow journalists are suddenly “Torah-true sources” when you have no other leg to stand on. Uch un vey to anyone whose Torah is political websites. Now you “don’t know or care what the Mir Yeshiva feeds its’ talmidim” but just a couple comments back you were making absolute claims what they feed them. Oh what a difference just a few hours makes with your “truths”.

    #1214467

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Old man,

    You are completely disingenuous. And you completely fabricated a story. You led off that the Mir stopped serving Eidah chickens. That is a blatant lie. And your purpose in saying that was to bolster your belief in the Schmutz you read on line. Being on a Hebrew blog does not make it true.

    edited

    You are really despicable.

    By the way, you will note the the eidah was completely open in the investigation and deliberations. That had many outsiders standing around.

    But you feel that anonymous blogging on hate sites are more representative.

    I now have even greater disrespect for what you wrote and have written than even before.

    #1214468

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The same people who are complaining about the “Non-Daily” and the O-U D on the package probably wouldnt be eating those products anyway since it is not Chalav Yisroel.

    I dont know anything about the Eidah Charedi chickens story nor do I know what the issue is, I am responding to the Tzaar Baeli Chaim issue. With the demand for Kosher meat at an all time high, Its not possible to meet the demand easily. It used to be you ate chicken or beef at MOST once a week on Shabbos (And for many even that was alot) now we eat meat almost every day and in amounts unheard of in previous generations

    #1214469

    NDG, when you exaggerate like that, your point gets lost.

    ZD, if the label was misleading, people who are makpid on CY would buy it thinking it was pareve.

    #1214470

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Allowing Milchig (dairy) products that they certify to be labeled NON-DAIRY in big bold letters is a serious offense: “Lifnei Iver Lo Sitain Michshol” (It is forbidden to cause another Jew to sin)!”

    No it isnt. It is a sign of ignorance on the part of the consumer. “Non Dairy” is an allergen statement, not a kashrus statement. The consumer is guilty of making assumptions.

    “Someone may consume these during a Fleishig (meat) meal!”

    So, the OU is at fault because someone assumed wrong?

    “The fact that in smaller print they say OU-D or dairy is not a reliable solution.”

    Why not? The only kashrus statement made by the OU is the one with their symbol.

    #1214471

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If I am looking for real non-dairy items, I look for Pareve on the package, not Non-Dairy. I sort of know that when something say Non-Dairy its very well might be dairy according to halacha (But not american law) but if it says PAREVE then it really is non-dairy

    #1214472

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    Can you tell me where it says “pareve” on a coke bottle?

    This conversation reminds me of when I first started working and there was non-dairy creamer in the office. I looked at the hashgocha and noted that it was OU- D. I mentioned it to one of the owners, a frum person and they ordered additional creamer.

    Now I just drink coffee black.

    #1214473

    ZD, OU policy is that if there is no D or MEAT next to the OU, it’s pareve.

    #1214474

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Coke doesnt say “Non-Dairy”. The words “Non-Dairy” are the tipoff that it might be Halachically Dairy. They do not write Non Dairy on the package unless they think the public might think it was dairy. I dont need an O-UD to tell me that Milk is Dairy. if someone wrote on Milk “Non-Dairy” then I would think twice

    #1214475

    Do all non-dairy pareve items state pareve on them?

    #1214476

    apushatayid
    Participant

    For those who care to know instead of making assumptions.

    From a doctors guide for those who are Lactose intolerant.

    “There are several types of non-dairy creamers that you can use in place of milk to lighten your coffee. They come in a variety of flavors, in both liquid and powder form. Non-dairy creamers contain sodium caseinate in place of lactose. Sodium caseinate is a derivative of milk, but it is a protein, not a sugar carbohydrate. This ingredient helps give non-dairy creamers their smooth textures.”

    Is there still a question why these types of products have an OU-D? The designation “non dairy creamer” is an industry label, not a kashrus label. An educated consumer……

    #1214477

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Almost all cookies and Cakes say Pareve on this (Most baking is done with butter) usually you see Pareve on Candy too as Candy is either made with butter or Milk Chocolate

    #1214478

    AFAIK, putting the word Pareve on a product is at the discretion of the packager, not the OU (obviously, only if the product is actually pareve).

    You don’t need to see the word pareve to assume a product is pareve.

    ZD, you keep on coming up with new chumras. πŸ™‚

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