Punishing innocent children because you think their parents are inferior

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT discussing any individual scenario; I haven’t read the link and nothing I say should be taken out of the parameters in which I say it in.

Klal Yisroel is filled with different types of people, all who pride ourselves on our individuality. Everyone has different standards, everyone has different nisyonos. And of course, we have the dictum ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??????.

There is a fundamental difference, however, between not judging and accepting. Or, more importantly, there is a difference between accepting their lifestyle and allowing it to filter into your own.

Most of us come from working families, and those who were privileged to have an even more Torahdike upbringing [and yes, i KNOW that the two are not directly related etc. etc.] generally don’t feel a working background to be a problem with schools. And I personally am fine with that.

But I also respect those who don’t. I have an uncle who doesn’t let his kids eat in my house. As far as I am concerned, we keep the best standards London has to offer – which isn’t good enough for him. His children don’t eat at chasunas, they don’t eat any meat which schita wasn’t observed by my uncle. And they look down on me for having a text phone (albeit internet-free), and they look down on me for having internet access (albeit totally filtered). And I respect them for that.

Never have I heard a word from any of them said in a superior fashion, nor any statement about any yiddishkeit preference. My uncle and cousins are warm, nice people. Yet I know that he sends his children to a chassidishe school (Yekkish notwithstanding), because the exposure in Litvishe schools is too much for him, and that he wouldn’t like his kids friends to be like me. And I’m fine with that.

I don’t feel the need to live like that. I am happy with my standards. But I totally understand that if he were to open a school for his children, I wouldn’t be accepted. And I don’t find that unfair. I did read “goyisher books”, I do listen to Eighth Day, and my level of exposure is not something he wants his kids exposed to.

Elitism is the name given to it by those who feel bitter not being accepted, or being labelled to have lower standards. And it isn’t a nice feeling, to recognize that there are those out there who have higher standards, and to feel ‘second rate’. But they are allowed to protect their children, to keep higher standards they feel Hashem wants them to have.

(Obviously: (a) generalizations in standards are always wrong, because people in the ‘lower class’ will always point to specific members of the ‘higher class’ and show how they are in fact just-as-bad-if-not-worse, and point to the guy-whose-parents-are-bts-and-now-has-a-chabura-in-mir. Blanket labels is not the way to set standards. (b) there is a way of doing this. Elitism and superiority are disgusting things, and any expression of this crosses suddenly from ‘protecting your standards’ into ‘i-am-holier-than-thou’, which is horrible.)

You can’t believe everything you read in the news. Halachically, you are not even allowed to (source: any sefer on hilchos Loshon Hora.)

I have a close family member who is a journalist and I know for A FACT that she has written things that weren’t true. I know this because she quoted ME as saying things I never said (she obviously thought I had and she misunderstood me).

gavra_at_work: kollel in EY is definitely not the easy way out!! You may not agree with it, but it is definitely not easy. Learning in Kollel in EY means resigning yourself to a life of poverty and struggle. People do it because they feel it is important and they are willing to sacrifice for Am Yisrael.

Most of us come from working families, and those who were privileged to have an even more Torahdike upbringing

I’ll disagree with this premise. Why do you make the assumption that a Kollel family is more “Torah-dike” than other families, where the children see their parents make sacrifices for the RBSO? Kollel, especially in EY, is the easy way out. It certainly is not true with Chassidim.

I guess I’m a fool for thinking that adding “[and yes, i KNOW that the two are not directly related etc. etc.]” would stop people from attacking this one line.

My assumption is based on the Kollel people I have met. Almost every kid in yeshiva with me whose father is still in learning has a more solid set of Hashkafos, and lives an entirely different lifestyle to those of us more exposed to the outside world. I am well aware that not everyone in Kollel is not exposed. I am also well aware that there are some working people without internet access and without the exposure. But on a general basis (UK Facts; I’ve never been to USA, and can’t tell you anything about Israel) – children from kollel families are on the whole on a higher standard of yiras shamayim than those from working families. I am jealous of them.

And your premise that kollel people are taking the easy way out is just a blatant lie. I know first hand of kollel families in Eretz Yisroel who barely have money for chicken on Shabbos, who struggle to feed their own children. Very intelligent men who would have been successful in the business world. And they are sacrificing everything for Torah. (There are many who are sacrificing far more, but I am talking on a first hand basis) — Incidentally, they are among the happiest people I have met. Their children see much more sacrifice for Torah than any working family.

(And, of course, sacrifice [whichever sacrifice you refer to] isn’t the only form of Chinuch. Just saying.)

yekke2:

Literally cannot think of anything to add. Superb post.

yekke2: several gold stars for you for your response.

And millions of gold stars for all the Kollel families in Eretz Yisrael who are sacrificing for all of us.

Too much to say, and afraid I will make the kind of generalizations that I will regret. Nevertheless

1. Don’t confuse the actions and attitudes of an individual or even many individuals with the feelings or actions of all. HKBH was prepared to save Sdom for even a tiny minority of righteous people, if they could be found. L’havdil, there are (I think and hope) only a minority in the Chareidi community who would justify this action.

2. That said, if even one child is treated this way it is a wrong that must be fixed. If the schools involved receive state funds, that should be leverage enough to encourage these heartless individuals to relent.

3. Yekke2, if, as you say, they look down on you, then they have no need to speak to you in a superior fashion. The look says all that is needed.

4. I am an individual with some learning, a family and lineage to be proud of, a job where I get to work for the benefit of Am Yisroel every day, and I DON’T EVEN HOLD A CANDLE TO THE UNLEARNED MILDLY OBSERVANT MENIAL WORKER WHO DOES CHESED AND GIVES TZEDOKOH IN THE MOST BASIC WAYS WITH LOVE EVERY DAY, WEEK, OR MONTH. I am humbled by the humility and gentle nature of these many tzadikim and tzidkaniyos who rarely hear a shiur or learn bechavrusah because they are working three jobs to sustain their family, but they still have time and a few dollars to bring groceries and some companionship to the lonely, immobile widow in the apartment above theirs.

That’s who I look up to.

5. Yekke2, you think it is not unfair to deny these kids a place in these schools. I think it IS unfair, but not as much to the excluded kids but rather to the rest of the talmidim in the school who will never benefit from their friendship, never have the opportunity to hear a Torah insight from them, never have the hashpooh they could bring to other talmidim to do chesed, to learn more, to be responsible participants in their community and society. The Principal is not a Novi, and cant foresee the greatness he might be excluding.

6. Lilmod, you say “People do it because they feel it is important and they are willing to sacrifice for Am Yisrael.” Yes, you may be right. And their sacrifice is indeed immense. Why, though, does doing it because “they feel” it is right become a standard for others?

7. All of these points didn’t even address the issue with Sefardi children. All I will say is that those children deserve to be in a school whose hanhala is on a higher madrega than this one.

“Lilmod, you say “People do it because they feel it is important and they are willing to sacrifice for Am Yisrael.” Yes, you may be right. And their sacrifice is indeed immense. Why, though, does doing it because “they feel” it is right become a standard for others?”

My comment was said in response to this line and this line only, “Kollel, especially in EY, is the easy way out.”

I didn’t read the original article as it is assur to read or believe it according to Hilchos Loshon Hora. (I glanced at it long enough to figure that out).

I know enough to know how easy it is for journalists (and everyone else for that matter) to misrepresent situations and the reasons behind them (whether deliberately or not) and how unfair it would be for anyone to judge the people involved based on what they read in the newspaper.

Based on the gist of what I have picked up about what this discussion is about, it seems to have something to do with kids not being accepted to schools and people making ASSUMPTIONS about the reasons behind it, and ASSUMING that it was based on prejudice. Since you don’t know the reason, why not assume that they had a good reason instead of assuming the worst about them?

Sof Kol Sof, they can have “other standards”. Until you prove to me that the RBSO wants them to act as they do (and not the rest of us for some reason, as He didn’t tell us to do so in His Torah or via His Chazal), they are not “higher” standards. They are not “more Torahdike”. They are “Kollel” or “learning Torah full time”, and Kol HaKavod to them if that is what they believe the RBSO wants from them.

Firstly: Even if you deny that spending a full day in Limmud HaToirah is more ideal than spending a day in the stock market, my point still stands. I was coming from an observation that the Kollel homes have a stronger and more deeply engrained connection to Yiddishkeit, and the many many mailos of these homes result in children who IMHO seem like better Oivdei Hashem. [Of course, my ananlysis would be corrupt in your eyes; I value things like being Oisek B’Toirah, Mesiras Nefesh and Harbatzas Hatoirah – things that seem to get people upset] My point: Even if the work itself is all equal, the consequences are more “Torahdik”.

Secondly: I have absolutely no sofek that the Rotzon Hashem for someone who is able to is to sit and be Oisek BaToirah without anything else. Yes, I have seen all the Gemaras, the Rambams, the Shu”a, etc. The general consensus of every single ???? I have seen is that it is commended to the highest degree to sit and learn in Kollel. There are terutzim to all the Gemaras and Ramba”ms which convey conflicting messages. And above all, the Poskim say that ?? ????? ??’ ????? ?????? – the continuity of Torah in our generation would be ????? the Kollel movement. R’ Moshe zt”l goes so far as to say that anybody who doesn’t go to Kollel because of these Rambams is just fooling himself, and it is the ??? ????. (Perhaps in a different thread, it would be K’dai to post the relevant M”Ms).

3: Response to “4”: 4. I am an individual with some learning, a family and lineage to be proud of, a job where I get to work for the benefit of Am Yisroel every day, and I DON’T EVEN HOLD A CANDLE TO THE UNLEARNED MILDLY OBSERVANT MENIAL WORKER WHO DOES CHESED AND GIVES TZEDOKOH IN THE MOST BASIC WAYS WITH LOVE EVERY DAY, WEEK, OR MONTH. I am humbled by the humility and gentle nature of these many tzadikim and tzidkaniyos who rarely hear a shiur or learn bechavrusah because they are working three jobs to sustain their family, but they still have time and a few dollars to bring groceries and some companionship to the lonely, immobile widow in the apartment above theirs.

Don’t allow bringing the wonderful merits of other people to distort you from the value of learning Torah. X being good doesn’t make it better than Y. Every mitzvah is infinitely good in its own rights.

4: And it says ?????? ???? ???? ????. The zechus of learning Torah surpasses that of Gemilas Chassadim. (It is impossible for me to convey here that we are all humbled by the humility and gentle nature etc. etc. – it truly is unbelieveable to see these people give up their time, money and effort for others in such a selfless fashion. But the “pushete yid” shoemaker wasn’t better than the N’tziv.

5. In response to “3”: I have never heard a single comment, seen a single snide look, or felt condescended to in any way at all. The only discernable sign of superiority is the fact that they don’t eat in my house. And never has that been made into a statement. And arguing this is, of course, irrelevant to our discussion.

But everyone agrees that a life spent learning would essentially be more ideal than a life spent in the office.

Truth. Full stop.

I was coming from an observation that the Kollel homes have a stronger and more deeply engrained connection to Yiddishkeit, and the many many mailos of these homes result in children who IMHO seem like better Oivdei Hashem.

Fair enough. I (in my own anecdotal observations) have not seen this to be the case.

As before, I think one needs to differentiate between those who are in Kollel and those who live the Kollel life (whether they actually learn full time or have to make a parnassah as well).

“kollel in EY is definitely not the easy way out!!

Going with the herd is certainly the easy way out. Especially in EY where the government supports the learners, and the monetary expectations are much lower, it is easier to be in Kollel than to fight the tide, leave Kollel (with all of the issues with the Army that come along with that choice) and then find a job in a society that doesn’t want to employ Charaidim. I agree with Joseph on this one, that it is much easier to be a Yeraim Jew outside of the state of Israel.”

Sorry, but I have to correct you on this one. There are many misperceptions about what goes on in EY, and about what’s involved in deciding between Kollel and army. I have lived in EY for many years and am very familiar with the issues and the challenges involved in these decisions. I know from personal family experience how DIFFICULT it is to decide to defer the army to go to Yeshiva. I have a family member who was was not able to live up to the challenge and gave in to the pressure from his mother who was not able to deal with the financial challenges involved in deferring army service.

It is very DIFFICULT to live in EY and not go to the army. If you don’t go to the army, you lose out on many rights and much financial aid from the government. You do not make any money while you are learning, and you can’t go to work. You are basically doomed to a life-long poverty.

If you do go the army, the army supports you while you are doing your army service. In some cases, they even give you more than enough spending money so that you can save it to pay for college afterwards (as one of my family members did). In many cases, they train you in a profession for free, and as soon as you finish your army training, you can get a top job in your field (as another family member did). I believe that there are also many other benefits that one who goes to the army gets.

Deferring army to go to Yeshiva is not going against the tide! It is very hard to live in a country like Israel which is constantly at war and where going to the army is the norm and so much is dependent on going to the army, and not go to the army! Anyone who thinks that it is easy knows nothing about the realities of living in EY today!

I had a brother who could have been a Rosh Yeshiva. He was very Frum and very into learning. He wanted to learn, but my mother pressured him to go to the army because she was worried about money, and his Dati Leumi Rosh Yeshiva told him to go (after promising me that he would tell him not to go). He thought he had to listen to his Rav, so he went to the army, and he is now completely chiloni. He was supported by the government while he was in the army being taught computer programming for free. He got a great job as soon as he finished the army before he even started college. He makes a lot of money today.

I have a sister who did sheirut leumi. She was supported by the government and given enough money to help her pay for college. She went to college and got a great job and now makes a lot of money, but is not so Frum (depending on how you define Frum -see previous threads – basically, she does not completely keep halacha).

I have friends whose husbands are big masmidim and Talmidei chachamim and they live on almost nothing but bitachon and are extremely “mistapek b’muat.” Even with being “mistapek b’muat” to an extreme that you can’t imagine, they have to have a lot of bitachon every month that they will make it through the month somehow.

Meanwhile, I see that people like my siblings are rolling in money.

So don’t try to tell me that Kollel is the easy way out!!!

I do agree though that someone who learns has more Olam Hazeh, but I do not agree that it is the easy way out!!

“Will those in favor, please give one Gadol who says this is OK”

Who says that what is ok?

If I am special because I am unique. Then everyone else is also special! This is healthy self esteem.

But, If I am special because I am BETTER than you, then only I can be special! This is also called narcissism and is the root of this issue.

The problem is not that the “kolel” parents want to punish anyone, rather they don’t want their children to associate with children they consider less religious. The secular court has tried to force the yeshiva to accept them and the parents just boycotted the yeshiva. The parents went to jail rather than send their kids to yeshiva with those they considered less frum.

Just because a parent uses government funds to pay for his child’s schooling, funds that are taxpayer’s fund not some nebulous entity called “the government’s” money, that the taxpayers themselves gave to the government to fund their children’s schooling, does not give the government the right to dictate to the school how to educate the children against the parent’s choices in education.

Gavra at Work – Anyone can home school their children, but if you mean the few who are being rejected, their parents work and so can’t home school their children.

Part of the problem is that yeshivas are partially funded at a lower rate than Israeli Public Schools which would take them in. There are Less Macmur yeshivas that would take them in but they are out of the district. In my opinion school busing is a better solution to this problem. Placing them in a school that wants them is better than forcing them on a school that doesn’t and it will be a better learning environment.

I deliberately didn’t read the article. What type of school are we talking about? Is it a boys’s school or a girls’ school? If it’s a girls’ school, is it a Bais Yaakov or a (completely) private school? If it’s a boys’ school, is Chinuch Atzmai or a regular chareidi school (which would mean it’s a private school)?

“Just because a parent uses government funds to pay for his child’s schooling, funds that are taxpayer’s fund not some nebulous entity called “the government’s” money, that the taxpayers themselves gave to the government to fund their children’s schooling, does not give the government the right to dictate to the school how to educate the children against the parent’s choices in education. “

The vast majority of that money, which you say came from the taxpayers, really comes from non-Charaidi taxpayers.

“Just because a parent uses government funds to pay for his child’s schooling, funds that are taxpayer’s fund not some nebulous entity called “the government’s” money, that the taxpayers themselves gave to the government to fund their children’s schooling, does not give the government the right to dictate to the school how to educate the children against the parent’s choices in education. “

The vast majority of that money, which you say came from the taxpayers, really comes from non-Charaidi taxpayers.”

NOTE: A greater percentage of Chareidi/Frum tax money goes to support the secular school system than the percentage of non-Chareidi/Frum tax money that is going to support the Chareidi/Frum schools, since all of the secular schools are completely public, wheareas the majority of Chareidi schools are private.

NOTE 2: This is a Jewish country, and really all of the schools should be run according to the Torah. At the very least, the Torah community should be able to educate their kids the way they desire. It should be the Frum people determining how the secular schools are run (in terms of religious issues such as teaching Torah from a Torah perspective, etc). If that is not going to happen, at the very least, it should be the Gedolim who determine how the Frum schools are run and not the government (at the very least when it comes to Religious issues).

Gavra at work – This is not the first time this has happened. What happens is that the courts orders the yeshiva to enroll the students, which it does. The other parents boycott the school. The court then orders the parents to send their kids to school and they refuse and are sent to jail for contempt. It may sell newspapers but doesn’t educate students.

The government needs them to enter the workforce. If they don’t fund secular studies they wouldn’t be taught these subjects,. This will burden social services for generation to come as they will be unable to enter the workforce.

This will burden social services for generation to come as they will be unable to enter the workforce.

Bezras Hashem Moshiach will be here then and we won’t need to worry about it.