Torah Sources in Support of Kollel

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  • #613944

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I don’t want to hijack the thread about working boys. So I am starting this thread to discuss Torah sources in support of Kollel and Torah sources in support of working. Anyone can feel free to quote a source from Scriptural or Rabbinic Literature, and debate whether the quoted sources are in fact supportive of Kollel/Work. This is intended to be only a discussion of the sources so please don’t debate what should actually be done.

    #1174977

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Kiddushin 29a:

    ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ??????

    #1174978

    charliehall
    Participant

    Well you have to start with Rabban Gamliel in Mishnah Avot chapter 2; the dispute between Rabbi Yishmael and Rabbi Shimon in Talmud Bavli Berachot 35b; and of course Rambam Hilchot Talmud Torah 3:10.

    #1174979

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Avos 2:2:

    ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???

    #1174980

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Kiddushin 82a:

    ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ?????… ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????

    #1174981

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Hilchos Shemitah V’Yovel 13:12-13:

    ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?’ ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????. ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?’ ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ?’ ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????

    #1174982

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Charlie:

    You’re stealing all my sources. Well actually only some of them.

    #1174983

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Radvaz on the aforequoted Rambam:

    ??????? ?????? ?”? ???? ????? ?? ????”? ??? ?????? ?? ????”? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??

    #1174984

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Berachos 35b:

    ?”? ????? ???? ?? ?”? ??? ???’ ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?’ ?????? ?”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?”? ????? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ???’ ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?”? ???? ???’ ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???’ ????? ?? ?????? ???’ ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??’ ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????????? ???? ???: ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??’ ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ????

    #1174985

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    P.S.

    If I know more sources for one side over the other it does not indicate that I am promoting a specific side.

    #1174986

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Rambam Avos 4:6:

    ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???????? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ????????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??’ ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????, ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??, ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? – ?? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??’ ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ??????? ??’ ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ??? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ???????? ???????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????????

    ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??’ ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ???’ ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?’ ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????, ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?’ ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???????? ????? ??????, ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??’ ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?’ ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?’ ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???. ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?’ ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???

    #1174987

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    ???? ????? ????? ???? ??”?

    “??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??”?, ????, ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????, ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?????

    ???????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??????, ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????, ?????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? [???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ??????? ???? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ???, ?????? ????? ??”?, ?????? ??”?, ????”? ???? ??”?, ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????. ??? ????? ??? ???? ??

    ???? ??? ??? ??? ???????? ???, ?????, ??????, ???”? ??? ?? ??? ???. ???, ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ?????? ?????, ????, ????? ??????? ????”? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????????, ?? ?? ?????].

    ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????”? ???? ??”? ??”? ???”? ???”? ???”? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????, ?????? ????? ?????? ???”? ???”? ????? ?”? ????? ?”? ?”?, ???’, ?? ????? ??”?, ?????? ????”? ?”? ????? ?????? ???? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ???? ????, ????? ???? ???? ???? ??????, ?”? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ??????? ?????? ????, ????? ?? ?? ?????, ?”? ?????? ????? ?”? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????, ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ?????”? ?”? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?”?, ??”?, ????? ????? ????????? ??????? ????? ?? ???????, ?????? ???? ???’, ??? ?? ?????? ???, ??”? ??? ???, ??????? ??? ??? ????, ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????, ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?”?, ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ????, ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????, ????? ????? ???? ????, ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????”.

    ??????? ???? ??”?: ???? ???? ?????? ??? – ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? [???? ????? ?????? ?”? ?”? ???? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ????] ????”? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????”? ??”? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???’ ??”? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????.

    #1174988

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Tur Y.D. 246:

    ??? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???’ ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ?”? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????”? ?????”? ???’ ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???”? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????

    #1174989

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ????? ??? ??”? ?’ ???? ??”?

    ????? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????

    ?”? ???? ???”?.

    ??”? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ????”?.

    ??? ???? ?”? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ?????

    ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ??”? ???? ??”? ???? ?”? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???”? ?????? ????? ????? ?????.

    ???”? ??”? ???? ?? ???”? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ??”? ??”? ?”? ?????.

    ??? ???? ?????”? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ????, ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?”? ????? ?????? ???”?

    ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????.

    ???? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??”?, ?? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ????, ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????????, ????? ?”? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????. ??? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????”? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????.

    ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ?? ????. ????? ????? ????”?,

    ??? ?????????

    #1174990

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 246:21:

    ??? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???: ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???’ ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? (???? ????) ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ???? (????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?’ ??”? ???”?) ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? (??”?) ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? (??? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ) ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? (??????? ?????? ???? ????) ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??”? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ???????? ????? (?? ?? ?????? ??????) ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? (????? ????? ??? ????? ????) ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? (????? ????”? ?”? ??”?) ??????? ???? ??? (??”? ???”?) ??”? ???? ?????? ????? (?? ??? ???? ??’ ???) ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? (?????? ?? ?”? ???”? ???”? ?? ??’ ???”? ??’ ?”?) ?? ???? ??? ???

    #1174991

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10:

    ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????

    #1174992

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shach Y.D. 246:20:

    ???? ???? ???? ?”? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ????? ????? ???????? ???”? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????”? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??’ ????? ??”? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?’ ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????”? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??”? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???’ ???’ ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ????”? ??? ??? ????? ??’ ?’ ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ?”? ??? ??”? ????? ?????? ???

    #1174993

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ??”? ???? ???? ???? ?

    ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????’ ??? ??????? ????? ?????”? ?”? ??????? ?????? ?”? ?”? ????? ?? ???? ????”? ?? ????’ ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????? ????? ????? ??????

    ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???’ ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??”? ???”? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??’ ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??’ ??? ????? ????? ??’ ?”? ?????

    #1174994

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Igros Moshe Y.D. 2:116:

    ????? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?”? ???? ???”?. ??”? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ????”???? ???? ?”? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ??”? ???? ??”? ???? ?”? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???”? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???”? ??”? ???? ?? ???”? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ??”? ??”? ?”? ????? ??? ???? ?????”? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?”? ????? ?????? ???”? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ?? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???????? ????? ?”? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????”? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ?? ????. ????? ????? ????”?, ??? ?????????

    #1174995

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?

    ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????????? ???? ??? ?? ?????. ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???????. ????? ????? ?’ ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????. ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???’. ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??”? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????.

    ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?”? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????:

    #1174996

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shulchan Aruch O.C. 156:1:

    ??”? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?”? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????

    #1174997

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Beiur Halacha Siman 156:

    ???? ???? ?????? ??? – ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? [???? ????? ?????? ?”? ?”? ???? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ????] ????”? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????”? ??”? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???’ ??”? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????

    #1174998

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Maharsha Kiddushin 82a:

    ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????’ ??”? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???????? ??”? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?”? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ???????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ??’ ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??”? ?????? ??????? ????? ?”? ??’ ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??’ ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??”? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??”? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??”? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ??????

    #1174999

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shu”t Tashbetz Siman 152-158

    #1175000

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Maharsha Berachos 10b:

    ????? ?????? ??’ ????”? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??’ ??”? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??”? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??”? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???”? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??????’ ???’ ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?”?

    #1175001

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    DaasYochid:

    Thanks for posting the Kessef Mishnah. I had started quoting it but then I was too lazy, especially considering that the Shach quotes it. And I noticed that you quoted the Igros Moshe before me, but it was not yet up when I posted it.

    #1175002

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Very useful thread. I’ll just read through the sources and then I’ll decide who is right

    #1175003

    Joseph
    Participant

    “If I know more sources for one side over the other it does not indicate that I am promoting a specific side.”

    PAA: Don’t you agree, considering there are sources for both derechs, that each to his own, we should all respect and honor whatever shitta someone else follows (for himself)?

    Yet, while I rarely or never hear the Kollel crowd running around demeaning everyone not attending Kollel, unfortunately it is far from infrequent that I hear and read (online et al) the anti-Kollel crowd demeaning Kollel or more frequently ranting off reasons folks should stop attending Kollel. No one is insisting they go to Kollel so why are they insisting others leave Kollel?

    #1175004

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Berachos 8a:

    ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?’ ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???

    Penei Yehoshua there:

    ???? ?’ ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??’ ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?’ ??’ ?? ??? ??? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ?????? ?? ???? ?’ ????? ?”? ????? ???? ??”? ??”? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???”? ???? ?? ???”? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??”?

    Ben Yehoyada there:

    ?? ??? ???? ?? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????

    #1175005

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Nissim Gaon Berachos 9b

    ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?’ ???? ?? ????? ??? ??’ ????? ???’ ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????

    #1175006

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Very useful thread. I’ll just read through the sources and then I’ll decide who is right

    If this is anything like the iyun thread, you’ll never end up deciding.

    You’re right, of course, about the lack of relevance of the sources. The ??? ???? which I quoted already said that it’s a matter of ????? ???, so it’s clearly something which needs to work according to the needs of the generation.

    #1175007

    midwesterner
    Participant

    I would like to thank all for finding these important maamarei Chazal that R Aharon Kotler and others obviously missed. It’s too bad the coffeeroom didn’t exist back then for them to see, or the Jewish world would probably look much different today.

    On a more serious note, many sources listed above go back to R’ Yishmael vs. R’ Shimon Bar Yochai, either directly or indirectly.

    Everyone knows that there are more aniyim than ashirim in the world. It has always been that way, and will always be so. Ki lo yechdal evyon mikerev haaretz. So if Harbeh asu k’John Rockefeller or Bill Gates, vlo alu byadam, does that mean one shouldn’t try? In the gashmiyusdike world they all are hoping their child will be the next Steve Jobs, or Sam Walton or whoever.

    Yeshiva and Kollel, full time learning, is built on every single person wanting the best for their child. Yes, many if not most will not be able to survive, and may not thrive that way. But that doesn’t mean one can’t strive to be the best he can be? Isn’t that the American dream, to want that our children should have it better than we do?

    R’ Yishmael never said that RSBY was wrong. Just that it was a tough act to follow. Everyone is entitled to give it the good old ‘college’ try.

    RSBY also said Ra’isi bnai aliya v’hema muatim. Im elef hem, ani ubni imahen, im meah hem, ani ubni imahen, im shnayim hem, ani ubni. That is the dream of every ben Torah.

    Another point. The world has changed in recent years and decades. There is wealth beyond what anyone could have imagined a century ago. The world and Torah community’s economy allows for this lifestyle to be supported. For some, that means they can have two or three cars. They can go on vacation to the other end of the country or world many times a year. Some homes are as big as apartment buildings were just a few years ago. They can afford to have little devices in their hands that can do more than a suite full of heavy machines could do just a generation ago. For others, they use that as an opportunity for something else. Pas bamelech tochal, umayim bamesurah tishte etc,(albeit at a slightly updated 21st century level) uvatorah ata ameil. And they are Ashrecha vtov lach as they attempt to join RSBY’s bnai aliya. If you are zoche to the highest level, you can be a Yissochor in that formula. If not, partake of the program as a Zevulun. But those who decide to sit out completely, and to C”V discourage those Zevulun’s from making the system work, well I’m not mekaneh their chelek in Olam Haba.

    #1175008

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Nesivos Ohr:

    (Referring to R’ Yisrael Salanter)

    ??? ????? ????? ????”? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????

    #1175009

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Pele Yoetz “Torah”:

    ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ???”? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ?”? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???”? ??? ???’ ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???”? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ??????? ?”? ?????

    #1175010

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Some people clearly didn’t read what I wrote in my first post, so I’ll say it again: “This is intended to be only a discussion of the sources so please don’t debate what should actually be done.”

    Lior: I will respond to you in a new thread.

    #1175011

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Popa:

    I’m not sure if you’re joking or not.

    #1175012

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Pele Yoetz “Umanus”:

    ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????

    #1175013

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Pele Yoetz “Parnasa”

    ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??”? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????

    ??????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???”? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???

    ???’ ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ????? ??? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???’ ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????

    #1175014

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sefer Habris Chelek 2 13:2:

    ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?’ ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?’ ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?’ ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??”? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??????

    ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???????????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?’ ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??’ ????? ????? ???? ????? ?”? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???”? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???

    ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?’ ??? ????? ?”? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?’ ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??”? ?????? ????? ??

    ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????

    ????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?”? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ??”? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ????

    ???????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?”? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??????

    ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???

    ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????”? ?”? ???? ??? ?’ ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?”? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??????

    ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??”? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ?????? ??”? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??”? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????

    ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?”? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??”? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ???????? ??? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ???????

    ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?’ ?????? ???? ????? ????

    ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????

    ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????

    ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?’ ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????

    ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??”? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????

    ?????? ????? ??? ?”? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???

    ?????

    ??? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ?????? ??? ?????

    ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?’ ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ???”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?’ ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????

    ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????????? ????? ????? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ??’ ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??”? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????

    ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????, ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????

    ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ?????? ??? ?????

    ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?’ ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ???”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?’ ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????

    ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??”? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???

    Mod’s Disclaimer-I did not read this

    #1175015

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Mod’s Disclaimer-I did not read this”

    It’s ok. I don’t think anyone else will read it either.

    #1175016

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant
    #1175017

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lior: “Don’t you agree, considering there are sources for both derechs, that each to his own, we should all respect and honor whatever shitta someone else follows (for himself)?”

    So you agree that, because many Achronim disagree with the Rama about a Niddah seeing a Torah, that we should all respect and honor whatever Shittah someone else follows (for herself)?

    #1175018

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ David Friedman of Karlin, Emek Beracha Ma’amar 4:

    ???? ???? ??????? ????????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ??”? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????

    #1175019

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Since I quoted the Pele Yoetz on this topic, it would be instructive to note that he holds that in a Yissachar-Zevulun deal the half that Zevulun gets is actually deducted from Yissachar:

    Pele Yoetz “Chizuk”:

    ???? ??”? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????

    ????”? ?’ ??? ??? ?????? ??’ ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????”? ????? ?????? ???? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?’ ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????

    #1175020

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Berachos 6a:

    ?’ ????? ??’ ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???

    #1175021

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Elchanan Wasserman, Kovetz Ma’amarim V’igros p. 90:

    ?????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???”? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?’ ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??”? ???? ???? ?’ ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ?????

    He brings a couple of proofs but I’m not going to take the time to quote that part.

    #1175022

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Igros Moshe Y.D. 4:36

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14679&st=&pgnum=265

    It’s really long. The next siman is also related and also really long.

    #1175023

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Chasam Sofer Succah 36a:

    ????? ??”? ????”? ??”? ??? ?????? ???”? ??’ ?????? ?”? ???? ?????? ?????’ ???? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ????”? ??? ???”? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ?’ ????? ???????? ????? ????????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????”? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ?”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????”? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ????”? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???”? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??”? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??????? ??????’ ??????’ ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??????’ ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??????’ ???”? ??? ??”? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?’ ????? ???? ?”? ????”? ??”? ??? ?????’ ?? ?’ ?????? ?????’ ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ???”? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???’ ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???”? ?????? ??????? ?”? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?”? ???? ????’ ????? ?”? ?”? ?????

    #1175024

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Chasam Sofer, Toras Moshe Parshas Shoftim:

    ?? ???? ???’ ??? ??? ???? ?????”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???’ ?????? ??? ????? ?”? ???’ ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?’ ?????? ??? ??’ ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???”? ?”? ???? ?????? ??’ ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??”? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???”? ????? ?’ ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ????”? ??’ ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?”? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?”? ??’ ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????”? ??’ ?????? ????? ????? ???????

    ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?”? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????”? ????? ??? ?????? ??’ ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?????

    #1175025

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Kisvei R’ Chaim Eliezer Bichovski:

    ??? ?? ??? ???? ??’ ???? ????? ????

    ???? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???”? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??”? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???????? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???”? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???”? ??”? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????”? ???? ?? ????”? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????”? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?’ ???? ???? ????? ??? ??”? ????? ??’ ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?”? ?’ ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????????? ???? ??? ????”? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???”? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????”? ???? ??? ?”? ???”? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??”? ???? ???’ ????? ????? ??? ??’ ?”? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????

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