Very Interesting! The Reason Why We Eat Jelly Donuts On Chanukah

Home Coffeeroom Yom Tov Chanukah Very Interesting! The Reason Why We Eat Jelly Donuts On Chanukah

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  • #593221

    WIY
    Member

    Chanukah

    Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach Tells Us The Secret Behind Chanukah’s Jelly Doughnuts

    Jelly Donuts or “Sufganiyot” are customarily eaten on Chanukah. Why? Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach says the gemara (Avodah Zara 52b) says that when the Chashmonaim were victorious they entered the Bais HaMikdash and cleaned it up and purified it from the Tumah. However they had no viable solution to salvage the stones of the Mizbei’ach and had to bury them.

    After eating Donuts we make an “Al HaMichya” where when we ask Hashem to rebuild Yerushalayim and the Bais HaMikdash we specifically ask for rachamim “Al Mizabachacha” on the Mizbei’ach unlike Birchas HaMazon where we don’t find specific mention of the Mizbei’ach.

    What about the Jelly? The gemara in Sotah says that since the Bais HaMikdash was destroyed the taste of fruits have never been the same. Fruit is associated with the Mizbei’ach. Therefore we add fruit jelly to our donuts. (Shalmei Moed)

    From Revach.net

  • #990742

    Rak Od Pa'am
    Member

    Here is another Quote From Revach.net Glad to see you discovered it. I havent seen you quote theim yet.

    The Bostoner Rebbe, The Baal Tshuva, And The Juicy Steak

    The Bostoner Rebbe was famous for helping Baalei Tshuva stay grounded even as they soared to spiritual heights. It is told that once a Baal Tshuva told the Rebbe that he doesn’t eat steak unless he has bread so he can wash. He explained that a good juicy steak deserves more than a mere Shehakol before and Borei Nefashos afterward. He wanted to make sure that after eating steak he can amply thank Hashem with a full Birchas HaMazon.

    Expecting the Bostoner Rebbe to be pleased with his logic and tzidkus, he was taken aback by the Rebbes negative response to this practice. The Rebbe explained that when instituting brachos Chazal knew good and well the meaning of a nice piece of meat. Despite this they instituted the bracha of Shehakol and the a Borei Nefashos. One must trust Chazal and not veer from their words based on their own personal feelings and findings

    http://revach.net/stories/gadlus/The-Bostoner-Rebbe-The-Baal-Tshuva-And-The-Juicy-Steak/4839

  • #990743

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Maybe that is why you eat jelly donuts.

    I know why I do.

  • #990744

    minyan gal
    Member

    I was always taught that during Chanukah we eat foods that require large amounts of oil during their cooking. While the potato latke is the customary food of Ashkenazim and their European roots, the sufganiya is more of a Sephardic/Israeli tradition, that we Ashkenazim have happily (and greedily) adopted. Whatever the reasons, both of these customary foods are delicious and I, for one, am happy to consume generous quantities of each.

  • #990745

    Josh31
    Member

    According to this we should be able to use Hamentashin filled with fruit based jelly or preserves?

  • #990746

    meir48
    Member

    why are fruits assciated with the mizbeiach?

  • #990747

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    At a guess it could be the bikkurim: ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??????

  • #990748

    not2bright
    Member

    maybe another reason why we fill it with jelly is because then lifi all shitos its a pas haba bkisnin so it is for sure mezonos which we need for your first part and maybe thats how it also spread to chocolate, custard, and caramel

  • #990749

    WIY
    Member

    Josh31

    Good point. Maybe the fact that they are fried also plays a role. Additionally Hamantaschen are a Purim food. Theres a reason we eat them Purim. Basically every Yom Tov has its special foods associated with it.

  • #990750

    WIY
    Member

    meir48

    ItcheSrulik beat me to it. ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? The Bikkurim were put next to the Mizbeach.

  • #990751

    WIY
    Member

    Rak Od Pa’am

    Actually I have quoted them numerous times!

  • #990752

    WIY
    Member

    not2bright

    According to Rabbi Bodner in his Halachos of Brachos book, doughnuts including jelly ones are not considered pas haba bkisnin. Although he does bring that a Yorei Shomayim should be machmir like the minority Shittah and not eat a shiur seudah outside of a bread meal. Even within a bread meal, I saw that Rav Moncharch on Revach.net discusses it and says “Our doughnuts are even more problematic, since they are eaten as a desert they would not be included in the hamotzi and it would not even help to make hamotzi first. Therefore, other more creative solutions are required. Therefore anyone G-d fearing should only eat sufganiyot as part of a bread meal, and should either make a bracha of mezonos on something else before he washes with explicit intention to exempt the doughnut, or at the end of the meal before eating the sufganiya he should make a mezonos on something that certainly requires a bracha during a meal such as Bisli.

    While this is only a chumra, it is one endorsed by the Shulchan Aruch.”

    I would say the best move is not to eat a shiur seudah and if you want to be machmir, eat it for dessert after a bread meal after making a mezonos on something that vaday requires a mezonos.

  • #990753

    charliehall
    Member

    Rak Od Pa’am,

    That is a great argument for Jews being vegetarians!

  • #990754

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “and should either make a bracha of mezonos on something else before he washes with explicit intention to exempt the doughnut,”

    It seems to me that this would be a brocha sh’eino tzricha and therefore a bracha l’vatalah.

  • #990755

    cherrybim ??? ??’ ???? ???? ??? ? ???? 26 A lengthy discussion on whether causing a ???? ???? TO get out of a ??? is a ???? ????? ????? Very much like the ?????? re eating fruit after the Seuda on shabbos to complete the 100 Berachos.

    “brocha sh’eino tzricha” and “bracha l’vatalah” are two seperate dinim.

  • #990756

    bezalel
    Participant

    why are fruits assciated with the mizbeiach?

    At a guess it could be the bikkurim: ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??????

    I never had a jelly doughnut flavored by one of the 7 species (other than wheat but that doesn’t count).

  • #990757

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Rav Scheinberg holds that after Kiddush on Shabbos, one may not eat before washing for hamotze without a significant hefsek, because of brocha sh’eino tzricha; the hamotze would have exempted the brocha for the kiddush food.

  • #990759

    not2bright
    Member

    wiy, im not sure if i have that book does r’ bodner explain why its not ph”b? maybe you can say it’s thick, but it still fulfilled the 2 other requirements which we rely on for other things, such as cakes etc. i would appreciate an explanation thanks

  • #990761

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Actually, donuts seem to be a safek if they are even pas at all, since they are fried. If we say that frying is akin to boiling, then they would be maaseh kedeira, and not hamotzi even if you eat a whole bakery. (Which I have done.)

  • #990762

    WIY
    Member

    not2bright

    Dough that is deep fried in oil is considered cooked and are thus not PH”B. If made in a pan without oil it is considered baked and would be a PH”B. In short baking dough products makes them PH”B, cooking or deep frying makes it NOT PH”B.

  • #990763

    WIY
    Member

    popa_bar_abba

    I am guessing when you say you have eaten a whole bakery you are excluding the displays, trays, ovens…

  • #990764

    BP Zaideh
    Member

    Re the Quote by from ????”? ???????? re making a hefsek between cake earen after Kidush and the Seuda. Are you sure it is because of ???? ??”? ? Perhaps because of Beracha Achrona. See Shulchan Aruch 174:7 ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??????

    See http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=9261for an interesting discussion (without mekoros)

    Almost all contemporary ?????? quote Poskim not to be ???? ????? on doughnuts but eat them ???? ??????

    See http://tinyurl.com/Rav-Bodner-on-Doughnuts , http://www.kof-k.org/dvar%20torah/Minhagei%20Chanukah%20(07).pdf , and ???? ???? Chart 21 in the English version. See http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?PageIndex=94&ClipID=1560 where Rabbi Eli Mansuor quotes Chahcham Ovadia Yosef that one does not need concern himself about ???? ????? . But they all refer to doughnuts made from dough ??????? ??? not batter ?????? ???. (See recipes section of the CR & you will find recipes for both dough & batter) There is an apocryphal story of a rumor circulating of a machlokes between two poski re potato kugel. One said ???? the other ?????. On investigation it was learned that it was a machlokes between the Rebetzins. One used grated potatoes the other pureed potatoes

    See Biur Halacha 168:14 piece beginning ?????? ???? at the end where he Brings the ??? ???

    ???”? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?”? ?

    Below is a follow up question to Moncharch on Revach.net My question is, does this only apply to what is known as a jelly donut in the USA or to any donut in the USA and this Shaila is not just a jelly donut shaila? Thanks!

    Answer:

    The same issue applies to any fried donut and is not exclusive to the jelly filled ones. The primary issue is the proper beracha on fried or boiled dough products.

    Actually Rav Bentzion Abba Shaul proposed that jelly donuts should be less problematic because they are filled and might qualify as pas haba’ah b’kisnin, which is mezonos up until a certain quantity. Even though the donuts are only filled after the frying process, but they are intended to be filled from the beginning. He does not pasken this way l’maaseh, but proposes it as in interesting idea.

    posted:2010-11-27 22:13:40

  • #990765

    BP Zaideh
    Member

    not2bright and WIY

    Rav Bodner does not say doughnuts are not considered pas haba bkisnin he says that a yoreh shomayim who wants to eat a shiur seuda of these types of products should eat them during the course of a bread meal.

    Popa you are right that normative Halacha is ?????= ?????

    It is only a recommendation.

    I saw a contemprary Sefer ???? ?????? who brings a Minhag not to make a Beracha on Hamentashen on purim and doughnuts on Chanukah during the course of a Seuda, as they are ????? ????? ???? ?????? because of the Minhag, analogous to apple in honey Rosh Hashana night according to the ???? ????”s Kushya on the Magen Avraham

  • #990766

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “akin to boiling, then they would be maaseh kedeira, and not hamotzi”

    Like bagels?

  • #990767

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “Even though the donuts are only filled after the frying process, but they are intended to be filled from the beginning”

    But bread is bread; like bread baked with the intent to spread jelly on it…still hamotzi. Also, not all doughnuts are filled.

  • #990768

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    bagels are hamotzi according to everyone because they are baked after being boiled.

  • #990769

    First of all. There are a couple of good Sefarim in English on Hilchos Berochos. Don’t expect a really good explanation in an Internet forum.

    In a nutshell.

    There are three categories of food prepared from flour of the 5 species.

    Bread ?? Unflavored Dough baked in an oven normally eaten as a meal with spreads etc. Always a ?????

    Cooked dishes ???? ????? cereal, pasta etc. Always ?????? regardless of quantity and/or other ingredients.

    Snack breads ?? ?????? for a very brief definition see

    http://tinyurl.com/2gy5zva .

  • #990770

    oomis
    Member

    “Our doughnuts are even more problematic, since they are eaten as a desert”

    If I ate donuts as a desert, I would most likely be a snake or alternatively possibly be AWOL. (sorry about the corny humor).

    If I ate them for dessert, however, I would be very content to make an entire meal of them.

  • #990771

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “bagels are hamotzi according to everyone because they are baked after being boiled.”

    Not according to everyone.

    “Bread ?? Unflavored Dough baked in an oven normally eaten as a meal with spreads etc. Always a ????? “

    Not always a ?????

    Sefardim make m’zonos on bread which includes eggs or is made like our matza (except pesach).

  • #990772

    eclipse
    Member

    We interrupt this broadcast for an important message.One of my children needs to know the exact definition and origin of the word LATKA.Anyone know?

    (not:

    LDL And TRYGLYCERIDES KOOKED ALTOGETHER)

    the real answer.

  • #990773

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    “bagels are hamotzi according to everyone because they are baked after being boiled.”

    Not according to everyone.

    Well, according to the Mechaber 168:14, and the mishna berura does not bring any contrary shittos, so it is pretty normative.

    Now, while I was researching that, I ran into the mishna berura 168:85 which says that if something is fried, that itself can make it pas kisnim as if the dough was kneaded with oil. (He means to include cases where it was fried and then baked so we can’t rely on the frying itself to make it not pas.)

  • #990774

    To Eclipse: Why dont you use Google? I did & this is what I found

    [Yiddish, from Ukrainian oladka, from Old Russian, diminutive of olad’ya, from Greek eladia, pl. of eladion, little oily thing, diminutive of elaion, olive oil, from elai, olive.]
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/latke

    Cherrybim wrote

    “Bread ?? Unflavored Dough baked in an oven normally eaten as a meal with spreads etc. Always a ????? “

    Not always a ?????

    Sefardim make m’zonos on bread which includes eggs or is made like our matza (except pesach). Because they consider them Pas Kisnin “snack bread”. Ashknazim say Mezonos over bite size “matzo” crackers.

  • #990775

    WIY
    Member

    BP Zaideh

    Look at page 497 of Rav Bodners book he says that according to most poskim doughnuts as they are deepfried are NOT PH”B.

    He brings the Mishna Berura that brings down other poskim that advise that a Yorei Shomayim who wants to eat a shiur seudah of these types of products should eat them in a bread meal.

  • #990776

    charliehall
    Member

    “LDL And TRYGLYCERIDES KOOKED ALTOGETHER”

    ROTF!!! But olive oil is low in LDL and triglicerides — it is a very healthy food in moderation.

  • #990777

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    a Yorei Shomayim who wants to eat a shiur seudah of these types of products

    A true yarei shomayim would certainly want to eat a shiur seudah of these products.

  • #990778

    twisted
    Member

    to clear the issue on bagels: The bagel is boiled in a lye solution to give it the hard coat shine. It is not otherwise functional in the forming of the bread. This is also the case for soft pretzels.

  • #990779

    olive oil isnt low in ldl and triglycerides

    it doesnt contain any

    it is a monosaturated fat and that is why it is healthy

    (at least according to todays understanding of such things, that will inevitably drastically change within a decade or so)

    and a persons blood levels of lipids including ldl and triglycerides is not related to their intake of said fats (except perhaps minimally)

  • #990780

    twisted
    Member

    In MHO, one should not be koveah seudah on sufganiyot in order not to endanger ones health. Hamira sakanta me’isura. The caloric punch of a deep fried dounut is in the 600-800 range, and a good chunk of that from transfat.

  • #990781

    WIY
    Member

    popa_bar_abba

    “A true yarei shomayim would certainly want to eat a shiur seudah of these products.”

    You bet, especially if he wants to become an “Odom Gadul.”

  • #990784

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    that’s right.

  • #990785

    minyan gal
    Member

    “The caloric punch of a deep fried dounut is in the 600-800 range, and a good chunk of that from transfat. “

    Twisted – because we eat so many oil laden foods during Chanukah, the high caloric content of a donut just grazes our bodies and silently slips away into the ether. It is a newly discovered additional Chanukah miracle!!

  • #990786

    BP Zaideh
    Member

    WIY

    You caught me off guard with a ‘????? ???’???

    I wrote

    1) Rav Bodner does not say doughnuts are not considered pas haba bkisnin he says that a yoreh shomayim who wants to eat a shiur seuda of these types of products should eat them during the course of a bread meal.

    Popa you are right that 2) normative Halacha is ?????= ?????

    It is only a recommendation.

    I must have been sleeping

    ???? ???

  • #990787

    BP Zaideh
    Member

    In Skver on the 5th night (which has special Kabbalistic significance) Kasha latkes fried in olive oil is served at the Rebbe’s tish. The joke circulating is that it is reminiscent of Nes Chanuka. You eat one & it burns 8 days

  • #990788

    jhcvivgwry
    Member

    In 23 hours & 33 min. it’s gonna b chanukah!

  • #990789

    cherrybim
    Participant

  • #990790

    bezalel
    Participant

    In Skver on the 5th night (which has special Kabbalistic significance) Kasha latkes fried in olive oil is served at the Rebbe’s tish. The joke circulating is that it is reminiscent of Nes Chanuka. You eat one & it burns 8 days

    The significance of the 5th night is that it never occurs on shabbos.

  • #990792

    BP Zaideh
    Member

    I asked Horav Peretz Moncharsh of Revach.net

    Why didn’t you bring the Eitzah of the Chayeh Adam Klal 43:9 (quoted in Biur Hahalcha) to be Mekaven at Hamotzee for these mezonos deserts?

    Horav Peretz Moncharsh’s Answer:

    A good point. However the logic of the Chaye Adam is that explicit intention on the donut is equivalent to saying hamotzi directly on the donut. This works because if one said hamotzi on something that is mezonos he is yotzei b’dieved. I prefer to suggest a solution that works l’chatchila when available.

    I am impressed

    This answer can also be viewed at:

    http://revach.net/ask/article.php?id=1987

  • #990793

    Impressed with what??

    Obviously the Mishna Berura did not think it was so ?????? if he quotes the ??? ??? with no comment.

    Btw Rav Bodner Shlita does quote the Biur Halacha bshem Chaye Adam

  • #990794

    The Elya Rabbah writes (170:11) that one should use utensils to eat with and refrain from using their hands. Additionally, one should refrain from taking large bites of food and make sure not to get any food particles caught in their beard or on their clothing. The Elya Rabbah concludes by stating all these guidelines should be followed even when one eats alone in his home. The Piskei Teshuvos writes (170:11) that if it is accepted by the general public to eat a certain food with one’s hands (i.e. jelly donuts, bagels, or pizza), there is nothing wrong with eating without utensils. However, the Piskei Teshuvos quotes others who say that it is best to be stringent in this area and always use a fork and knife. http://revach.net/halacha/food/Jelly-Donuts-With-a-Fork-and-Knife/3176

  • #990795

    Ken Zayn
    Member

    Bump. There are some really informative posts on this thread and I found the OP to be especially interesting. Thanx to all above posters, some current but mostly forgotten. Please continue posting!

  • #990796

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi WIY.

    Thank you for sharing that. : )

  • #990797

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Riddle:

    On chanuka one year, popa eats 3 jelly donuts on the first day. How many will he eat on the second day?

  • #990798

    WIY
    Member

    4?

  • #990799

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    Is this a Netflix question?

  • #990800

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    what a great thread!

    I think we eat donuts

    1) to remind us of the oil

    2) Traaaaadition!

    3) because what else are you gonna do with them?

    4) makes a great dessert to my bagels and lox sandwich.

    Nuuuu Popa where you holding in the donuts count on day 3?

  • #990801

    tzaddiq
    Member

    i just ate my first jelly doughnut since like 2nd grade. i’m 39 now, but anyways. never liked them as much as the other flavoured doughnuts. was actually pretty good.

  • #990802

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Great thread. I want donuts.

  • #990803

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    Sounds like you just got over eating three at once.

  • #990804

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    It’s Mashma in Tosafos that they used to wash on the Hamantaschen on Purim.

  • #990805

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    they probably ate the poppy ones

  • #990806

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I was upset that the bakery near me only had jelly and custard donuts, but no Ribat Chalav donuts.

  • #990807

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    Popa, so you are Yotze with other Minim besides wine?

  • #990808

    TinyTim
    Member

    The Greeks worship the body. We as Jews do not. Soooo we eat as many oily and fatty foods so that by the end of Chanukah we should look somewhat like a doughnut and it should be really clear where we stand as far as our relationship to the Greek within us.

  • #990809

    MDG
    Participant

    Today’s Daf, Yoma 25, mentions the Kohen Gadol’s Mincha Offering, the Chavitin. It was made from flour and olive oil (Minachot 52). The oil that they found, with the seal of the K”G, was the oil for his Mincha.

  • #990810

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    It makes sense considering that according to some Medrashim it was found under the Mizbei’ach.

  • #990811

    WIY
    Member

    MDG

    “The oil that they found, with the seal of the K”G, was the oil for his Mincha.”

    That is one pshat but not everyone is maskim. A big problem with that pshat is that the quatity of oil for his mincha was considerably less than would be required to light for even one day. So if I remember correctly I think some want to say that this was the neis that even on the first day the oil burned a whole day.

  • #990812

    MDG
    Participant

    “A big problem with that pshat is that the quatity of oil for his mincha was considerably less than would be required to light for even one day.”

    The following comes from the sefer Hegyonai Halacha by R’ Mirsky (my translation and paraphrase):

    The Chavitin required 3 log, whereas the Menorah required 3.5 log (1/2 log per ner times 7). There is a different girsa of the the shiltot of Rav Achi Goan. Our Gemaras say that there was not enough oil except for one day (eleh l’yom echad), but his girsa says that there was not enough even for one day (afilu l’yom echad). Another answer to the question of the Beit Yosef.

    Another problem is that the oil for the Chavitin is of lower quality. The K”G, however, used the highest quality oil, even good enough for the Menorah. That is why Hanukkah has Mehadrin and Mehadrin min haMehadrin, unlike any other holiday. They were so careful about all their Avodah and so we also inherit such hiddur.

  • #990813

    MDG
    Participant

    One big difference between the Chavitin offering and donuts. The Chavitin was flour and oil and so are donuts. But the Chavitin was completely burned, unlike our donuts.

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