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1. WIY
   Member

   Chanukah
   Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach Tells Us The Secret Behind Chanukah's Jelly Doughnuts
   Jelly Donuts or "Sufganiyot" are customarily eaten on Chanukah. Why? Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach says the gemara (Avodah Zara 52b) says that when the Chashmonaim were victorious they entered the Bais HaMikdash and cleaned it up and purified it from the Tumah. However they had no viable solution to salvage the stones of the Mizbei'ach and had to bury them.

   After eating Donuts we make an "Al HaMichya" where when we ask Hashem to rebuild Yerushalayim and the Bais HaMikdash we specifically ask for rachamim "Al Mizabachacha" on the Mizbei'ach unlike Birchas HaMazon where we don't find specific mention of the Mizbei'ach.

   What about the Jelly? The gemara in Sotah says that since the Bais HaMikdash was destroyed the taste of fruits have never been the same. Fruit is associated with the Mizbei'ach. Therefore we add fruit jelly to our donuts. (Shalmei Moed)

   From Revach.net

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. Rak Od Pa'am
   Blocked

   Here is another Quote From Revach.net Glad to see you discovered it. I havent seen you quote theim yet.

   The Bostoner Rebbe, The Baal Tshuva, And The Juicy Steak
   The Bostoner Rebbe was famous for helping Baalei Tshuva stay grounded even as they soared to spiritual heights. It is told that once a Baal Tshuva told the Rebbe that he doesn't eat steak unless he has bread so he can wash. He explained that a good juicy steak deserves more than a mere Shehakol before and Borei Nefashos afterward. He wanted to make sure that after eating steak he can amply thank Hashem with a full Birchas HaMazon.
   Expecting the Bostoner Rebbe to be pleased with his logic and tzidkus, he was taken aback by the Rebbes negative response to this practice. The Rebbe explained that when instituting brachos Chazal knew good and well the meaning of a nice piece of meat. Despite this they instituted the bracha of Shehakol and the a Borei Nefashos. One must trust Chazal and not veer from their words based on their own personal feelings and findings

   http://revach.net/stories/gadlus/The-Bostoner-Rebbe-The-Baal-Tshuva-And-The-Juicy-Steak/4839

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. popa_bar_abba
   Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a woman; not Mod 80. Sometimes a bit over the top.

   Maybe that is why you eat jelly donuts.
   I know why I do.

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. minyan gal
   limericist extrordinaire

   I was always taught that during Chanukah we eat foods that require large amounts of oil during their cooking. While the potato latke is the customary food of Ashkenazim and their European roots, the sufganiya is more of a Sephardic/Israeli tradition, that we Ashkenazim have happily (and greedily) adopted. Whatever the reasons, both of these customary foods are delicious and I, for one, am happy to consume generous quantities of each.

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. Josh31
   Member

   According to this we should be able to use Hamentashin filled with fruit based jelly or preserves?

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. meir48
   Member

   why are fruits assciated with the mizbeiach?

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. ItcheSrulik
   Resident College "Shaigetz"

   At a guess it could be the bikkurim: והנחתו לפני מזבח השם אלוקיך

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. not2bright
   Member

   maybe another reason why we fill it with jelly is because then lifi all shitos its a pas haba bkisnin so it is for sure mezonos which we need for your first part and maybe thats how it also spread to chocolate, custard, and caramel

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. WIY
   Member

   Josh31
   Good point. Maybe the fact that they are fried also plays a role. Additionally Hamantaschen are a Purim food. Theres a reason we eat them Purim. Basically every Yom Tov has its special foods associated with it.

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. WIY
    Member

    meir48
    ItcheSrulik beat me to it. והנחתו לפני מזבח השם אלוקיך The Bikkurim were put next to the Mizbeach.

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. WIY
    Member

    Rak Od Pa'am
    Actually I have quoted them numerous times!

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. WIY
    Member

    not2bright
    According to Rabbi Bodner in his Halachos of Brachos book, doughnuts including jelly ones are not considered pas haba bkisnin. Although he does bring that a Yorei Shomayim should be machmir like the minority Shittah and not eat a shiur seudah outside of a bread meal. Even within a bread meal, I saw that Rav Moncharch on Revach.net discusses it and says "Our doughnuts are even more problematic, since they are eaten as a desert they would not be included in the hamotzi and it would not even help to make hamotzi first. Therefore, other more creative solutions are required. Therefore anyone G-d fearing should only eat sufganiyot as part of a bread meal, and should either make a bracha of mezonos on something else before he washes with explicit intention to exempt the doughnut, or at the end of the meal before eating the sufganiya he should make a mezonos on something that certainly requires a bracha during a meal such as Bisli.
    While this is only a chumra, it is one endorsed by the Shulchan Aruch."

    I would say the best move is not to eat a shiur seudah and if you want to be machmir, eat it for dessert after a bread meal after making a mezonos on something that vaday requires a mezonos.

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. charliehall
    Member

    Rak Od Pa'am,

    That is a great argument for Jews being vegetarians!

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. cherrybim
    Member

    "and should either make a bracha of mezonos on something else before he washes with explicit intention to exempt the doughnut,"

    It seems to me that this would be a brocha sh'eino tzricha and therefore a bracha l'vatalah.

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. wants to be a WIY
    Blocked

    cherrybim ראה בס' פסחי הלכה פרק א הערה 26 A lengthy discussion on whether causing a חיוב ברכה TO get out of a ספק is a ברכה שאינה צריכה Very much like the מחלוקת re eating fruit after the Seuda on shabbos to complete the 100 Berachos.

    "brocha sh'eino tzricha" and "bracha l'vatalah" are two seperate dinim.

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. Joseph / bezalel
    Blocked

    why are fruits assciated with the mizbeiach?

    At a guess it could be the bikkurim: והנחתו לפני מזבח השם אלוקיך

    I never had a jelly doughnut flavored by one of the 7 species (other than wheat but that doesn't count).

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. cherrybim
    Member

    While bracha l'vatalah is a d’oreisa and brocha sh'eino tzricha is a d’rabonim, these two items are related in that both involve saying Hashem’s name in vain and in our case the bracha is for eating food.
    Rav Scheinberg holds that after Kiddush on Shabbos, one may not eat before washing for hamotze without a significant hefsek, because of brocha sh'eino tzricha; the hamotze would have exempted the brocha for the kiddush food.

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. not2bright
    Member

    wiy, im not sure if i have that book does r' bodner explain why its not ph"b? maybe you can say it's thick, but it still fulfilled the 2 other requirements which we rely on for other things, such as cakes etc. i would appreciate an explanation thanks

    Posted 1 year ago #

19. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a woman; not Mod 80. Sometimes a bit over the top.

    Actually, donuts seem to be a safek if they are even pas at all, since they are fried. If we say that frying is akin to boiling, then they would be maaseh kedeira, and not hamotzi even if you eat a whole bakery. (Which I have done.)

    Posted 1 year ago #

20. WIY
    Member

    not2bright
    Dough that is deep fried in oil is considered cooked and are thus not PH"B. If made in a pan without oil it is considered baked and would be a PH"B. In short baking dough products makes them PH"B, cooking or deep frying makes it NOT PH"B.

    Posted 1 year ago #

21. WIY
    Member

    popa_bar_abba
    I am guessing when you say you have eaten a whole bakery you are excluding the displays, trays, ovens...

    Posted 1 year ago #

22. BP Zaideh
    Blocked

    Re the Quote by from הגרח''פ שיינבערג re making a hefsek between cake earen after Kidush and the Seuda. Are you sure it is because of ברכה שא''צ ? Perhaps because of Beracha Achrona. See Shulchan Aruch 174:7 ויש אומרים לברך על המים שבסעודה ויש מחמירין עוד לברך עליהם בכל פעם דסתמא נמלך הוא בכל פעם והרוצה להסתלק מן הספק ישב קודם נטילה במקום סעודתו ויברך על דעת לשתות בתוך סעודתו
    See http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=9261for an interesting discussion (without mekoros)

    Almost all contemporary מלקטים quote Poskim not to be קובע סעודה on doughnuts but eat them בתוך הסעודה
    See http://tinyurl.com/Rav-Bodner-on-Doughnuts , http://www.kof-k.org/dvar%20torah/Minhagei%20Chanukah%20(07).pdf , and פתחי הלכה Chart 21 in the English version. See http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?PageIndex=94&ClipID=1560 where Rabbi Eli Mansuor quotes Chahcham Ovadia Yosef that one does not need concern himself about קובע סעודה . But they all refer to doughnuts made from dough בלילותו עבה not batter בלילתו רכה. (See recipes section of the CR & you will find recipes for both dough & batter) There is an apocryphal story of a rumor circulating of a machlokes between two poski re potato kugel. One said שהכל the other האדמה. On investigation it was learned that it was a machlokes between the Rebetzins. One used grated potatoes the other pureed potatoes

    See Biur Halacha 168:14 piece beginning טעונים ברכה at the end where he Brings the חיי אדם
    ולפ''ז נראה לי דראוי לאדם בשעת המוציא לכוון בהמוציא לפטור כל הדברים שיאכל ממינים אלו חיי אדם כלל מ''ג ט

    Below is a follow up question to Moncharch on Revach.net My question is, does this only apply to what is known as a jelly donut in the USA or to any donut in the USA and this Shaila is not just a jelly donut shaila? Thanks!
    Answer:
    The same issue applies to any fried donut and is not exclusive to the jelly filled ones. The primary issue is the proper beracha on fried or boiled dough products.
    Actually Rav Bentzion Abba Shaul proposed that jelly donuts should be less problematic because they are filled and might qualify as pas haba'ah b'kisnin, which is mezonos up until a certain quantity. Even though the donuts are only filled after the frying process, but they are intended to be filled from the beginning. He does not pasken this way l'maaseh, but proposes it as in interesting idea.
    posted:2010-11-27 22:13:40

    Posted 1 year ago #

23. BP Zaideh
    Blocked

    not2bright and WIY
    Rav Bodner does not say doughnuts are not considered pas haba bkisnin he says that a yoreh shomayim who wants to eat a shiur seuda of these types of products should eat them during the course of a bread meal.

    Popa you are right that normative Halacha is טיגון= בישול
    It is only a recommendation.

    I saw a contemprary Sefer משפט הברכות who brings a Minhag not to make a Beracha on Hamentashen on purim and doughnuts on Chanukah during the course of a Seuda, as they are דברים הבאים בתוך הסעודה because of the Minhag, analogous to apple in honey Rosh Hashana night according to the תורת חיים"s Kushya on the Magen Avraham

    Posted 1 year ago #

24. cherrybim
    Member

    "akin to boiling, then they would be maaseh kedeira, and not hamotzi"

    Like bagels?

    Posted 1 year ago #

25. cherrybim
    Member

    "Even though the donuts are only filled after the frying process, but they are intended to be filled from the beginning"

    But bread is bread; like bread baked with the intent to spread jelly on it...still hamotzi. Also, not all doughnuts are filled.

    Posted 1 year ago #

26. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a woman; not Mod 80. Sometimes a bit over the top.

    bagels are hamotzi according to everyone because they are baked after being boiled.

    Posted 1 year ago #

27. Trying to be helpful
    aka Joseph

    First of all. There are a couple of good Sefarim in English on Hilchos Berochos. Don't expect a really good explanation in an Internet forum.

    In a nutshell.
    There are three categories of food prepared from flour of the 5 species.

    Bread פת Unflavored Dough baked in an oven normally eaten as a meal with spreads etc. Always a מוציא

    Cooked dishes מעשה קדירה cereal, pasta etc. Always מזונות regardless of quantity and/or other ingredients.

    Snack breads פת כיסנים for a very brief definition see
    http://tinyurl.com/2gy5zva .

    Posted 1 year ago #

28. oomis1105
    Member

    "Our doughnuts are even more problematic, since they are eaten as a desert"

    If I ate donuts as a desert, I would most likely be a snake or alternatively possibly be AWOL. (sorry about the corny humor).

    If I ate them for dessert, however, I would be very content to make an entire meal of them.

    Posted 1 year ago #

29. cherrybim
    Member

    "bagels are hamotzi according to everyone because they are baked after being boiled."

    Not according to everyone.

    "Bread פת Unflavored Dough baked in an oven normally eaten as a meal with spreads etc. Always a מוציא "

    Not always a מוציא
    Sefardim make m'zonos on bread which includes eggs or is made like our matza (except pesach).

    Posted 1 year ago #

30. eclipse
    The Human

    We interrupt this broadcast for an important message.One of my children needs to know the exact definition and origin of the word LATKA.Anyone know?
    (not:
    LDL And TRYGLYCERIDES KOOKED ALTOGETHER)
    the real answer.

    Posted 1 year ago #

31. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a woman; not Mod 80. Sometimes a bit over the top.

    "bagels are hamotzi according to everyone because they are baked after being boiled."
    Not according to everyone.
    Well, according to the Mechaber 168:14, and the mishna berura does not bring any contrary shittos, so it is pretty normative.

    Now, while I was researching that, I ran into the mishna berura 168:85 which says that if something is fried, that itself can make it pas kisnim as if the dough was kneaded with oil. (He means to include cases where it was fried and then baked so we can't rely on the frying itself to make it not pas.)

    Posted 1 year ago #

32. Trying to be helpful
    aka Joseph

    To Eclipse: Why dont you use Google? I did & this is what I found

    lat·ke (lätk) n. A pancake, especially one made of grated potato.
    [Yiddish, from Ukrainian oladka, from Old Russian, diminutive of olad'ya, from Greek eladia, pl. of eladion, little oily thing, diminutive of elaion, olive oil, from elai, olive.]

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/latke

    Cherrybim wrote

    "Bread פת Unflavored Dough baked in an oven normally eaten as a meal with spreads etc. Always a מוציא "

    Not always a מוציא
    Sefardim make m'zonos on bread which includes eggs or is made like our matza (except pesach). Because they consider them Pas Kisnin "snack bread". Ashknazim say Mezonos over bite size "matzo" crackers.

    Posted 1 year ago #

33. WIY
    Member

    BP Zaideh

    Look at page 497 of Rav Bodners book he says that according to most poskim doughnuts as they are deepfried are NOT PH"B.

    He brings the Mishna Berura that brings down other poskim that advise that a Yorei Shomayim who wants to eat a shiur seudah of these types of products should eat them in a bread meal.

    Posted 1 year ago #

34. charliehall
    Member

    "LDL And TRYGLYCERIDES KOOKED ALTOGETHER"

    ROTF!!! But olive oil is low in LDL and triglicerides -- it is a very healthy food in moderation.

    Posted 1 year ago #

35. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a woman; not Mod 80. Sometimes a bit over the top.

    a Yorei Shomayim who wants to eat a shiur seudah of these types of products

    A true yarei shomayim would certainly want to eat a shiur seudah of these products.

    Posted 1 year ago #

36. twisted
    pretzel

    to clear the issue on bagels: The bagel is boiled in a lye solution to give it the hard coat shine. It is not otherwise functional in the forming of the bread. This is also the case for soft pretzels.

    Posted 1 year ago #

37. Moderator-80
    Member

    olive oil isnt low in ldl and triglycerides
    it doesnt contain any
    it is a monosaturated fat and that is why it is healthy
    (at least according to todays understanding of such things, that will inevitably drastically change within a decade or so)

    and a persons blood levels of lipids including ldl and triglycerides is not related to their intake of said fats (except perhaps minimally)

    Posted 1 year ago #

38. twisted
    pretzel

    In MHO, one should not be koveah seudah on sufganiyot in order not to endanger ones health. Hamira sakanta me'isura. The caloric punch of a deep fried dounut is in the 600-800 range, and a good chunk of that from transfat.

    Posted 1 year ago #

39. WIY
    Member

    popa_bar_abba
    "A true yarei shomayim would certainly want to eat a shiur seudah of these products."
    You bet, especially if he wants to become an "Odom Gadul."

    Posted 1 year ago #

40. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a woman; not Mod 80. Sometimes a bit over the top.

    that's right.

    Posted 1 year ago #

41. minyan gal
    limericist extrordinaire

    "The caloric punch of a deep fried dounut is in the 600-800 range, and a good chunk of that from transfat. "

    Twisted - because we eat so many oil laden foods during Chanukah, the high caloric content of a donut just grazes our bodies and silently slips away into the ether. It is a newly discovered additional Chanukah miracle!!

    Posted 1 year ago #

42. BP Zaideh
    Blocked

    WIY

    You caught me off guard with a 'סתירה מני'ובי

    I wrote
    

    1) Rav Bodner does not say doughnuts are not considered pas haba bkisnin he says that a yoreh shomayim who wants to eat a shiur seuda of these types of products should eat them during the course of a bread meal.

    Popa you are right that 2) normative Halacha is טיגון= בישול
    It is only a recommendation.

    I must have been sleeping

    יישר כחך

    Posted 1 year ago #

43. BP Zaideh
    Blocked

    In Skver on the 5th night (which has special Kabbalistic significance) Kasha latkes fried in olive oil is served at the Rebbe's tish. The joke circulating is that it is reminiscent of Nes Chanuka. You eat one & it burns 8 days

    Posted 1 year ago #

44. Hashem's Son
    Member

    In 23 hours & 33 min. it's gonna b chanukah!

    Posted 1 year ago #

45. cherrybim
    Member

    And that's part of the celebration of Chanukah, it’s a holiday that goes K’neged Ha’tevah. B’derech Hateva the weak battling the mighty Yavanim had no chance of success. The Yiden did not win on their own abilities, but they fought with bitachon and relied on their amunas Hashem to provide a miraculous victory.

    It’s no coincidence that this week’s parsha deals with the seven thin that ate the seven fat and remained thin. While logically, doughnuts and latkes will make normal people fat in normal times, but Yiden during Chanukah, if they believe and have the proper thoughts, they will eat doughnuts and latkes during the eight days due to their weakness, but ultimately will win the battle and remain unaffected sh’lo b’derech ha’teva as was demonstrated in our parsha.

    Posted 1 year ago #

46. Joseph / bezalel
    Blocked

    In Skver on the 5th night (which has special Kabbalistic significance) Kasha latkes fried in olive oil is served at the Rebbe's tish. The joke circulating is that it is reminiscent of Nes Chanuka. You eat one & it burns 8 days

    The significance of the 5th night is that it never occurs on shabbos.

    Posted 1 year ago #

47. BP Zaideh
    Blocked

    I asked Horav Peretz Moncharsh of Revach.net

    Why didn't you bring the Eitzah of the Chayeh Adam Klal 43:9 (quoted in Biur Hahalcha) to be Mekaven at Hamotzee for these mezonos deserts?

    Horav Peretz Moncharsh's Answer:
    

    A good point. However the logic of the Chaye Adam is that explicit intention on the donut is equivalent to saying hamotzi directly on the donut. This works because if one said hamotzi on something that is mezonos he is yotzei b'dieved. I prefer to suggest a solution that works l'chatchila when available.

    I am impressed

    This answer can also be viewed at:
    http://revach.net/ask/article.php?id=1987

    Posted 1 year ago #

48. wants to be a WIY
    Blocked

    Impressed with what??

    Obviously the Mishna Berura did not think it was so בדיעבד if he quotes the חיי אדם with no comment.

    Btw Rav Bodner Shlita does quote the Biur Halacha bshem Chaye Adam

    Posted 1 year ago #

49. wants to be a WIY
    Blocked

    Jelly Donuts – With a Fork and Knife???
    The Elya Rabbah writes (170:11) that one should use utensils to eat with and refrain from using their hands. Additionally, one should refrain from taking large bites of food and make sure not to get any food particles caught in their beard or on their clothing. The Elya Rabbah concludes by stating all these guidelines should be followed even when one eats alone in his home. The Piskei Teshuvos writes (170:11) that if it is accepted by the general public to eat a certain food with one's hands (i.e. jelly donuts, bagels, or pizza), there is nothing wrong with eating without utensils. However, the Piskei Teshuvos quotes others who say that it is best to be stringent in this area and always use a fork and knife. http://revach.net/halacha/food/Jelly-Donuts-With-a-Fork-and-Knife/3176

    Posted 1 year ago #

50. Ken Zayn
    born Kenneth Solomon Zaynestzky

    Bump. There are some really informative posts on this thread and I found the OP to be especially interesting. Thanx to all above posters, some current but mostly forgotten. Please continue posting!

    Posted 5 months ago #

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