Why Are We Not Fighting The Radicals That Bother Soldiers Like Chillul Shabbos

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  • #1446099

    Yossii
    Participant

    Many Chardim are calling names to soldiers and no one stands against them, Is most chardim okay with that

    #1446759

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    1. It is not true that there are many people doing this. In fact, I have never, ever witnessed such a thing, even though I live in Eretz Yisrael, and even though I used to live in a very Chareidi neighborhood, nor have any one of my many acquaintances ever once mentioned seeing such a thing. In fact, it is only in the Coffee Room that I ever even heard of such a thing.

    The fact that something is reported on the news does not mean that it is a frequent occurrence. It just means that it makes good news. (It actually doesn’t necessarily mean that it ever happened at all).

    2. If there are a few people doing this, they are not Chareidi. Even if they dress Chareidi ( I have no idea if that is the case or not, since I never saw or heard of it, and don’t even know if it ever happens), that doesn’t mean that they are Chareidi.

    You can’t judge people by the way they dress. Just like you don’t think the soldiers should be judged by the way they dress, so too others should not be judged by the way they dress.

    3. If such people exist, they would not listen if any Chareidim told them not to do so. People who do things like this are not people who listen to Chareidim (or to anyone).

    4. No, most (if not all) Chareidim are definitely not okay with name-calling!

    #1446865

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LU

    1. I know people who have seen this Chilul hashem with the soldiers with their own eyes. Just because you didnt see them, doesnt mean it didnt happen. I dont know if its alot or a little, but if I would guess, its on the smaller amount

    2, When a rogue MO rabbi gives a mazal tov to an “Alternative” couple , Some in the charedi community blame the entire OU and RCA for this. Just because some claims to be MO and appears to do it under the MO community doesnt mean they endorse such things (This point was made to compare to the “All Charedim do it”)

    3. The charedim do know whose these people are and in general the charedi population is told of the evils of the army , When you tell everyone how evil it is, there are some unhindged people who will go to far (Just like telling them all “Alternative people” are evil it just takes one meshugganah who is unhindged to go to a parade and stab and kill someone

    #1447050

    Yossii
    Participant

    Lu
    I sow countless flyers comparing chardi soldiers to pigs and everyone that lives in eretz Isreal sees these flyers.A kid hearing that the chardi soldiers are pigs etc. will throw eggs at them because he can’t play basketball or any sports and what’s so bad about throwing eggs at pigs

    #1447031

    Joseph
    Participant

    The rogue MO rabbi is an OU member (and previously RCA as well, until he got tired of the RCA – the RCA never got rid of him.)

    #1447032

    Joseph
    Participant

    The leaders of the army are evil. There’s no reason not to tell people that. The alternative people are evil as well, and people need to be told that.

    #1447043

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    I just read that a soldier was hospitalized because people threw rocks at his tank, causing him to hit a lamp post. I don’t know if there was any protests against this behaviour.

    #1447066

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    1) He wasn’t saying it didn’t occur, just that it is so infrequent that he, who lives in Israel has not witnessed it.

    2) A rouge rabbi? Now I know you must be shilling for the OO. The announcementS (yes more than one, I actually saw them) were in the official news letter for the headquarters of the OO, HIR. That would be like the Vatican publishing a memo and you saying it was just the word of rogue priest. Your saying that this is a “rogue Rabbi” is proof that you are deliberately denying the actual issue. (I am not expanding further because that is not the topic here)

    3) The “chareidi people”? Do they have horns and pimply, hooked noses?
    And the chareidim are opposed to forced army service for many reasons, including that it is huge hindrance to basic shemiras hamitzvos. And in many, many instance, intentionally so. The overwhelming majority of chareidim are supportive of members of the army and explicitly so. We all know about how members of the IDF would visiti that Chareidi Gedolim for brochos, which they regularly give.

    #1447069

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Unfortunately there are people who dress Chareidi, and in fact dress like very pious people, who do shout abuse at soldiers and throw rocks at them. It is tragic, but it does happen.
    Rabbi YY Jacobson has told us the way to treat soldiers and how we should think of soldiers who we meet.
    https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?a=45339

    #1447070

    ZionGate
    Participant

    “…..Many Chardim are calling names to soldiers….” AND assaulting them physically.
    What we need are rabbonim who follow the Torah’s dictate of Lo Soguru Mipnei Ish,
    and in loud voice ask : RASHA…. Lomo sakeh es Reiyechu ? as Moshe Rabbeinu did. All the while keeping in mind that Dasan & Aviram were no angels as per Torah’s continuing narrative.
    Some are silent because they approve, some don’t care all that much, some are afraid of the Kol D’alim G’var thugs.
    When they get their toilet water shut off, garbage stinks not collected, spigot of $$$ from Jewish State pinched, mail delivery halted, it’ll all stop. Patience, my friend, patience.

    #1447071

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Unfortunately there are people who dress Chareidi, and in fact dress like very pious people, who do shout abuse at soldiers and throw rocks at them. It is tragic, but it does happen.
    Rabbi YY Jacobson has told us the way to treat soldiers and how we should think of soldiers who we meet.
    Go on to Torah Anytime and search for “How to Treat Israeli Soldiers”

    #1447141

    David111
    Participant

    “Why are we not fighting the radicals that bother soldiers like chillul shabbes”

    Please describe hoe you fight the Chillul Shabbos?

    I will not support anyone that bothers these chareidy soldiers but they should respect the ultra orthodox community and not [internationally] walk in these neighbourhoods dressed in uniform. (They treat in like chillul shabbes).

    #1447174

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I will not support anyone that bothers these chareidy soldiers but they should respect the ultra orthodox community and not [internationally] walk in these neighbourhoods dressed in uniform. (They treat in like chillul shabbes).

    The soldiers are the one protecting the nation especially in Jerusalem which is a terrorist flashpoint as there are both Jews and Arabs living there.

    Imagine if you said such a thing to a US marine officer walking through Borough park

    #1447184

    whattosay
    Participant

    I have personall witnessed a soldier being shouted at. He was frum.
    A friend of mine was in the army. When he went to a shtiebl in beis yisroel (not his brightest decision) he was spat on, shouted at and forcibly removed. Before Rosh Hashona the ringleader of the teens who were involved called him crying, asking for mechila.
    A different, close friend of mine(who, strangely enough was chozer bitshuva im the army) told me how he almost threw away everything he had gained (in frumkeit)since one of the first times he went out in public with a kippa on, he was in uniform and a chassidishe child shouted at him from a balcony, calling him a nazi

    #1447187

    David111
    Participant

    “Imagine if you said such a thing to a US marine officer walking through Borough park”

    I can’t imagine seeing marines in the streets of Boro Park. BH we live in a safe Country that has freedom of religion. Bucharim can learn in Yeshivah (or earn nice money on a job).

    #1447189

    David111
    Participant

    “..especially in Jerusalem which is a terrorist flashpoint”

    It’s a failing Country. Wasn’t worth the effort. Time for everyone to move on. No safty. No money. No religious freedom. What a waste of time.

    #1447207

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    <e> I can’t imagine seeing marines in the streets of Boro Park. BH we live in a safe Country that has freedom of religion. Bucharim can learn in Yeshivah (or earn nice money on a job).

    It’s a failing Country. Wasn’t worth the effort. Time for everyone to move on. No safty. No money. No religious freedom. What a waste of time.

    And one wonders why Moshiach hasnt come yet. Who wants to live in Eretz Yisroel when you can live in Borough Park

    #1447209

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I should have stated this earlier.

    Unprovoked (yes, there are times there are provocations) , it is very wrong to throw rocks at or otherwise harass soldiers, and Jewish soldiers all the more so.

    However, I must strongly protest the title of the thread “like chillul Shabbos”. I do not think you can even remotely compare the two and the response that is required.

    The same with the protest and outcry, (as minimal as it actually was – a couple of articles published L”A) that is appropriate when there is a so called Orthodox group announcing that an aveirah chamurah, one that carries the oinesh of sekilah, is appropriate, and a life choice to be celebrated. Those who make such claims are apikorsim, and those complaining about protests of those statements clearly lack certain “sensitivity” to Torah commandments.

    #1447254

    David111
    Participant

    “And one wonders why Moshiach hasnt come yet. Who wants to live in Eretz Yisroel when you can live in Borough Park”

    We all need to move to Israel? Is this what’ll bring Moshiach? Am I missing something?

    #1447261

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The people who help build for the coming of Moshiach will have more Zchus when he actually comes

    #1447307

    David111
    Participant

    100%

    #1447345

    Yossii
    Participant

    Nishtdayngesheft
    Although chillull shabbes is extremely chamur and even chayav skilla for transgressing shabbes there is a svara to protest against people that embarrass frum jews in public in the name of the Torah for tow reasons
    1.everyone knows that chillul shabbes is asur

    2.you don’t need to die for shabbes but you are mechyuv to die and not embarrass another Jew

    #1447365

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Yossii,

    1. And yet there are people who purposely are mechalel Shabbos. That is why people protest. (And what you aver is not true, anyway)

    2. This is not true.

    And who is being “embarrassed”? That is completely not the issue. They are being harassed , not embarrassed. We are talking about someone wearing a uniform publicly, how is he being embarrassed?

    The issue is that these soldiers are being harassed and there is no reason for that and attacking someone is ossur, but it is not embarrassing.

    #1447367

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont know you got that you have to die before embarassing another jew That is not true. That doesnt mean it is right to do these things

    #1447438

    whattosay
    Participant

    Yossii—You are not mechuyav to die rather than embarrass someone. The Loshon of the gemara is “נוח לו לאדם”-it is appropriate for a person etc
    The Rambam on embarrassing another (דעות, ו, ח) (translation from chabad.org)
    “At first, a person who admonishes a colleague should not speak to him harshly until he becomes embarrassed as [Leviticus 19:17] states: “[You should]… not bear a sin because of him.” This is what our Sages said: Should you rebuke him to the point that his face changes [color]? The Torah states: “[You should]… not bear a sin because of him.”

    From this, [we learn that] it is forbidden for a person to embarrass a [fellow] Jew. How much more so [is it forbidden to embarrass him] in public. Even though a person who embarrasses a colleague is not [liable for] lashes on account of him, it is a great sin. Our Sages said: “A person who embarrasses a colleague in public does not have a share in the world to come.”

    #1447550

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You want to see a protest against some neighborhood youngsters? Protests, by nature, are against a government. Youngsters are admonished.

    However, you do give up admonishing after a while. But maybe we can be Yotze armchair Macha’a right now:

    Antagonizing soldiers is wrong, counterproductive, despicable, and a Chilul Hashem!

    #1447680

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    continuation of #1447679: Another misconception is that because these people are dressed Chareidi, others who are dressed Chareidi have the power to influence and stop them. These people aren’t listening to anyone. If I saw such a thing, I don’t know if I would be able to do anything about it, and I have a feeling that you wouldn’t be able to either.

    If you think that you could, I would be interested in knowing what it is that you would do. For that matter, if you think there is something that someone should be doing, why don’t you just go ahead and do it instead of writing posts in the CR condemning others for not doing anything?

    #1447679

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I want to clarify a few things:

    Of course it is a terrible thing to harass anyone unprovoked. And if someone sees such a thing, they should certainly be upset about it, and want to protest, and be upset if they see that there were witnesses who did not protest. If I saw people dressed in Frum attire harassing someone without prior provocation and I saw that there were others there who could have protested and didn’t, I would certainly be very upset!

    However, there are several (perhaps understandable) misconceptions here:

    1. The assumption that such things happen frequently. As it has already pointed out, that is far from the case.
    2. The assumption that if someone is dressed a certain way, it shows something about their level of observance and the community to which they belong.

    Years ago, there was another (similar-type) of issue that people were upset about. At the time, I was studying in a certain program in EY, and one of the students (who was a modern baalas teshuva) asked one of the Rabbanim (Dati Leumi and very, very anti-Chareidi) about it. He explained that these people aren’t even Frum, let alone Chareidi. They are people who went off the Derech and are no longer Frum, but still wear the levush.

    I used to work in a school located in Geulah. Once on a Friday night, I saw a bunch of men yelling at a car driving by. I wanted to say something, but couldn’t say anything to them (I think I actually tried, but they didn’t hear me- they were too busy running after and shouting at the car), so instead I said something to a group of girls standing nearby. From the way they responded, it was clear that they were against such behavior as were the rest of the community, and that they did not consider these people to be part of the community.

    So when you see someone engaging in anti-Torah behavior, don’t assume they are Chareidi just because of their clothes. Just like if you saw someone driving on Shabbos wearing Chareidi clothing (and it was clear that there was no pikuach nefesh involved), you wouldn’t call him Chareidi, don’t call this guy Chareidi.

    Just like someone who drives on Shabbos is by definition not Chareidi, someone who harasses another unprovoked is not Chareidi!

    #1447668

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    And by the way, I consider myself to be Chareidi, and I speak out against “onaas devarim” and loshon hora and being nice to people far more often than I speak out against chilul Shabbos, and so do most Chareidim I know.

    All the Chareidim I know, if they saw someone they knew engaging in the behavior you speak of, would certainly say something to them. The thing is – I don’t think that anyone I know knows anyone like that!

    #1447667

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Nisht: “1) He wasn’t saying it didn’t occur, just that it is so infrequent that he, who lives in Israel has not witnessed it.”

    Thank you! That was precisely my point. I don’t know whether or not it happens at all, but it certainly is not a frequent occurrence, as one might think from the way the op is phrased: “many chareidim”. If it were frequent, I would have witnessed it or spoken to an eye-witness at least once in my life!

    It definitely happens with far less frequency than chilul Shabbos does, and it is certainly not “many” chareidim, if these people can be termed chareidi at all.

    The chareidi community as a whole neither engages in nor approves of these actions. These people do not consider themselves to be part of the “Chareidi community” nor does the “Chareidi community” consider them to be part of their community.

    #1448262

    lesschumras
    Participant

    LU, you are missing the point. When an OO synagogue wished mazal tov to a gay couple, CR commentators immediately blamed all MO and pointed a finger at the RCA for not repudiating the mazal tov. Where were your comments in that context? Your defense of Chareidi gedolim over their silence applies to the RCA

    #1448281

    Yossii
    Participant

    Nisht:
    Whattosay:
    First tosfos on daf yud amud bais דברי המתחיל נוח is mashma that it’s a chiyuv and not just it’s comfortable to kill yourselves and not embarrass someone in public and(עיין פסחים דף כה: why it’s not counted in 3 sings that you need to kill yourselves over)

    #1448487

    Joseph
    Participant

    LC: The OU and RCA continued to allow membership for those toeiva supporters. (Well, OU does; he quit the RCA on his own, they didn’t chuck him.) That’s different than these miscontents who are not members of anywhere.

    #1448498

    Yossii
    Participant

    I see in some of the comments that people are claiming that it’s a very small Minority of chardim that harass chardi soldiers.I moved from eratz Isreal 2 years ago and when I was there there was posters and flyers everywhere comparing chardi soldiers to pigs,I have spoken to many many pleg yerushlmi guys and everyone was pro this behavior the pleg guys are probably 20% of the isreali chardi world and no rabbi speaks against it,when I went to the shtiblach next to my yeshiva,many times there was these flyers, i would throw them out and get screamed at and it was taken right out the garbage, I felt like I was doing a gutsy thing throwing them out when it should be common sense.I moved from eratz Isreal and live now in Lakewood and if these flyers would be in satmer or anywhere in Lakewood they would be thrown out very quickly. bottom line is if you see a poster with a chardi soldier picture with a face of a pig or the posters with a chardi soldier going out of the garbage and all the kids laughing at him then you are not doing your hishtadlus to stop the radicals and it should be stopped

    #1448530

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some people seem to have a different definition of Charedi

    If someone is the child of a Rosh Yeshiva and a mother who is a Tzdekeas and the whole family is very helig, But this person R’L lies to his father about going to Yeshiva, sneaks out all the time and hangs out on the street with his friends while smoking pot and other juvenile deliquiences , but dresses charedi and goes home to his parents. is that person Charedi?

    Many charedim inside the community are not willing to call such people charedi, but people outside the community are. and IMO those people are charedi, they might be charedim in name only, but as long as they live in the community and basically think of themselves as part of the community then they are part of the community. If they wish to leave, let them move to Tel Aviv with the rest of the hedonists, cut the peyos, drop the Levush and then people wont count them as part of the community, but until then, they are part of the community

    #1448525

    MTAB
    Participant

    “Many Chardim are calling names to soldiers and no one stands against them, Is most chardim okay with that”

    It’s not that common. I have seen enough soldiers in Charedi areas and nobody bothered them. The stories are grossly exaggerated.

    Most of the most famous stories are where police dressed as soldiers and tried to provoke trouble.

    #1448527

    David111
    Participant

    Yossii.

    You have clearly explained you how you fight these radicals.

    Can you elaborate on how you fight Chillul Shabbos.

    #1448531

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    LC,

    Only you would consider the cases comparable.

    1) With the OU, it has to do with claimed membership and giving credence to. The are allowing such a synagogue membership in their organization. Chareidi gedolim do not claim affiliation with the few lunatic radicals. Huge difference, but make no difference to you.

    2) The uproar about OO membership in the OU is not just suddenly and about this one item. This is a long standing matter of contention amongst OU leadership for a long time.

    3) It is a blatant, bald face lie by you to say that commenters smeared all MO. The most vocal commenters are people who consider themselves MO.

    #1448489

    Joseph
    Participant

    Look at the chiluk between frum miscontents and non-frum/goyishe miscontents. The frum ones only yell at people; the non-frum/goyim go on drugs, alcohol and rob and assault people.

    #1448550

    MTAB
    Participant

    here’s the solution – stop drafting them

    #1448590

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There are plenty of “frum” people on drugs and booze

    here is the solution DRAFT them and the army will whip them up into shape, If these people are as malcontents as people here say they are. a few months in boot camp will shape them up real quickly. Those push ups get real old real fast

    #1448593

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, you want an army full of druggies?

    #1448620

    David111
    Participant

    “ZD, you want an army full of druggies?”

    ZD wants “..whip them up into shape”

    #1448610

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This hasnt been the main discussion here, but in general protests against Chilul Shabbos generally dont work and look to the resignation of the Health Minister over Chilul Shabbos, not only did he not get what he wanted, he had to crawl back begging to be let back in the government

    And protests against Movie theaters did not only not close them down, MORE people attended them because of the protests

    Nobody stopped being Mechalel Shabbos because someone threw a stone

    #1448609

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some malcontent from Tel Aviv goes into the army and guess what, They shape him up real fast. If the army can shape up some hedonist from Tel Aviv , shouldnt they be able to shape up some malcontent from Bnei Brak?

    #1448605

    David111
    Participant

    zahavasdad – “here is the solution DRAFT them and the army will whip them up into shape”

    I’m glad that your being honest with your beliefs and ideology.

    #1448656

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Zdad, regarding protests not help the Shabbos cause, absolutely. In fact, I doubt anyone here argues.

    #1448658

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Zdad, regarding protests not help the Shabbos cause, absolutely. In fact, I doubt anyone here argues.

    Unfortuantly Many seem in denial of this including some leaders and shown with the Litzmann resgination

    #1448666

    Joseph
    Participant

    “This hasnt been the main discussion here, but in general protests against Chilul Shabbos generally dont work”

    Exactly, ZD, you’re finally getting it!!! Protests against malcontents don’t work, exactly like you said. Whether the malcontents are mocking Israeli soldiers, engaging in chillul Shabbos or getting high on drugs.

    #1448688

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not like these Malcontents torah is protecting Klal Yisroel, they arent even yeshiva

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