Why Are We Not Fighting The Radicals That Bother Soldiers Like Chillul Shabbos

1. It is not true that there are many people doing this. In fact, I have never, ever witnessed such a thing, even though I live in Eretz Yisrael, and even though I used to live in a very Chareidi neighborhood, nor have any one of my many acquaintances ever once mentioned seeing such a thing. In fact, it is only in the Coffee Room that I ever even heard of such a thing.

The fact that something is reported on the news does not mean that it is a frequent occurrence. It just means that it makes good news. (It actually doesn’t necessarily mean that it ever happened at all).

2. If there are a few people doing this, they are not Chareidi. Even if they dress Chareidi ( I have no idea if that is the case or not, since I never saw or heard of it, and don’t even know if it ever happens), that doesn’t mean that they are Chareidi.

You can’t judge people by the way they dress. Just like you don’t think the soldiers should be judged by the way they dress, so too others should not be judged by the way they dress.

3. If such people exist, they would not listen if any Chareidim told them not to do so. People who do things like this are not people who listen to Chareidim (or to anyone).

4. No, most (if not all) Chareidim are definitely not okay with name-calling!

The leaders of the army are evil. There’s no reason not to tell people that. The alternative people are evil as well, and people need to be told that.

ZD,

1) He wasn’t saying it didn’t occur, just that it is so infrequent that he, who lives in Israel has not witnessed it.

2) A rouge rabbi? Now I know you must be shilling for the OO. The announcementS (yes more than one, I actually saw them) were in the official news letter for the headquarters of the OO, HIR. That would be like the Vatican publishing a memo and you saying it was just the word of rogue priest. Your saying that this is a “rogue Rabbi” is proof that you are deliberately denying the actual issue. (I am not expanding further because that is not the topic here)

3) The “chareidi people”? Do they have horns and pimply, hooked noses?
And the chareidim are opposed to forced army service for many reasons, including that it is huge hindrance to basic shemiras hamitzvos. And in many, many instance, intentionally so. The overwhelming majority of chareidim are supportive of members of the army and explicitly so. We all know about how members of the IDF would visiti that Chareidi Gedolim for brochos, which they regularly give.

“…..Many Chardim are calling names to soldiers….” AND assaulting them physically.
What we need are rabbonim who follow the Torah’s dictate of Lo Soguru Mipnei Ish,
and in loud voice ask : RASHA…. Lomo sakeh es Reiyechu ? as Moshe Rabbeinu did. All the while keeping in mind that Dasan & Aviram were no angels as per Torah’s continuing narrative.
Some are silent because they approve, some don’t care all that much, some are afraid of the Kol D’alim G’var thugs.
When they get their toilet water shut off, garbage stinks not collected, spigot of $$$ from Jewish State pinched, mail delivery halted, it’ll all stop. Patience, my friend, patience.

“Why are we not fighting the radicals that bother soldiers like chillul shabbes”

Please describe hoe you fight the Chillul Shabbos?

I will not support anyone that bothers these chareidy soldiers but they should respect the ultra orthodox community and not [internationally] walk in these neighbourhoods dressed in uniform. (They treat in like chillul shabbes).

I have personall witnessed a soldier being shouted at. He was frum.
A friend of mine was in the army. When he went to a shtiebl in beis yisroel (not his brightest decision) he was spat on, shouted at and forcibly removed. Before Rosh Hashona the ringleader of the teens who were involved called him crying, asking for mechila.
A different, close friend of mine(who, strangely enough was chozer bitshuva im the army) told me how he almost threw away everything he had gained (in frumkeit)since one of the first times he went out in public with a kippa on, he was in uniform and a chassidishe child shouted at him from a balcony, calling him a nazi

“..especially in Jerusalem which is a terrorist flashpoint”

It’s a failing Country. Wasn’t worth the effort. Time for everyone to move on. No safty. No money. No religious freedom. What a waste of time.

I should have stated this earlier.

Unprovoked (yes, there are times there are provocations) , it is very wrong to throw rocks at or otherwise harass soldiers, and Jewish soldiers all the more so.

However, I must strongly protest the title of the thread “like chillul Shabbos”. I do not think you can even remotely compare the two and the response that is required.

The same with the protest and outcry, (as minimal as it actually was – a couple of articles published L”A) that is appropriate when there is a so called Orthodox group announcing that an aveirah chamurah, one that carries the oinesh of sekilah, is appropriate, and a life choice to be celebrated. Those who make such claims are apikorsim, and those complaining about protests of those statements clearly lack certain “sensitivity” to Torah commandments.

The people who help build for the coming of Moshiach will have more Zchus when he actually comes

I dont know you got that you have to die before embarassing another jew That is not true. That doesnt mean it is right to do these things

You want to see a protest against some neighborhood youngsters? Protests, by nature, are against a government. Youngsters are admonished.

However, you do give up admonishing after a while. But maybe we can be Yotze armchair Macha’a right now:

Antagonizing soldiers is wrong, counterproductive, despicable, and a Chilul Hashem!

I want to clarify a few things:

Of course it is a terrible thing to harass anyone unprovoked. And if someone sees such a thing, they should certainly be upset about it, and want to protest, and be upset if they see that there were witnesses who did not protest. If I saw people dressed in Frum attire harassing someone without prior provocation and I saw that there were others there who could have protested and didn’t, I would certainly be very upset!

However, there are several (perhaps understandable) misconceptions here:

1. The assumption that such things happen frequently. As it has already pointed out, that is far from the case.
2. The assumption that if someone is dressed a certain way, it shows something about their level of observance and the community to which they belong.

Years ago, there was another (similar-type) of issue that people were upset about. At the time, I was studying in a certain program in EY, and one of the students (who was a modern baalas teshuva) asked one of the Rabbanim (Dati Leumi and very, very anti-Chareidi) about it. He explained that these people aren’t even Frum, let alone Chareidi. They are people who went off the Derech and are no longer Frum, but still wear the levush.

I used to work in a school located in Geulah. Once on a Friday night, I saw a bunch of men yelling at a car driving by. I wanted to say something, but couldn’t say anything to them (I think I actually tried, but they didn’t hear me- they were too busy running after and shouting at the car), so instead I said something to a group of girls standing nearby. From the way they responded, it was clear that they were against such behavior as were the rest of the community, and that they did not consider these people to be part of the community.

So when you see someone engaging in anti-Torah behavior, don’t assume they are Chareidi just because of their clothes. Just like if you saw someone driving on Shabbos wearing Chareidi clothing (and it was clear that there was no pikuach nefesh involved), you wouldn’t call him Chareidi, don’t call this guy Chareidi.

Just like someone who drives on Shabbos is by definition not Chareidi, someone who harasses another unprovoked is not Chareidi!

Nisht: “1) He wasn’t saying it didn’t occur, just that it is so infrequent that he, who lives in Israel has not witnessed it.”

Thank you! That was precisely my point. I don’t know whether or not it happens at all, but it certainly is not a frequent occurrence, as one might think from the way the op is phrased: “many chareidim”. If it were frequent, I would have witnessed it or spoken to an eye-witness at least once in my life!

It definitely happens with far less frequency than chilul Shabbos does, and it is certainly not “many” chareidim, if these people can be termed chareidi at all.

The chareidi community as a whole neither engages in nor approves of these actions. These people do not consider themselves to be part of the “Chareidi community” nor does the “Chareidi community” consider them to be part of their community.

“Many Chardim are calling names to soldiers and no one stands against them, Is most chardim okay with that”

It’s not that common. I have seen enough soldiers in Charedi areas and nobody bothered them. The stories are grossly exaggerated.

Most of the most famous stories are where police dressed as soldiers and tried to provoke trouble.

LC,

Only you would consider the cases comparable.

1) With the OU, it has to do with claimed membership and giving credence to. The are allowing such a synagogue membership in their organization. Chareidi gedolim do not claim affiliation with the few lunatic radicals. Huge difference, but make no difference to you.

2) The uproar about OO membership in the OU is not just suddenly and about this one item. This is a long standing matter of contention amongst OU leadership for a long time.

3) It is a blatant, bald face lie by you to say that commenters smeared all MO. The most vocal commenters are people who consider themselves MO.

here’s the solution – stop drafting them

ZD, you want an army full of druggies?

This hasnt been the main discussion here, but in general protests against Chilul Shabbos generally dont work and look to the resignation of the Health Minister over Chilul Shabbos, not only did he not get what he wanted, he had to crawl back begging to be let back in the government

And protests against Movie theaters did not only not close them down, MORE people attended them because of the protests

Nobody stopped being Mechalel Shabbos because someone threw a stone

zahavasdad – “here is the solution DRAFT them and the army will whip them up into shape”

I’m glad that your being honest with your beliefs and ideology.

Zdad, regarding protests not help the Shabbos cause, absolutely. In fact, I doubt anyone here argues.

Unfortuantly Many seem in denial of this including some leaders and shown with the Litzmann resgination

Its not like these Malcontents torah is protecting Klal Yisroel, they arent even yeshiva