Women Driving

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  • #588708

    Is it appropriate for women to drive? My husband claims not, but I dont see a difference if the woman is in the driver’s seat or the front passenger seat…

  • #1161685

    Joseph
    Member

    It depends on your husbands minhug. Some communities consider it lacking in tzinius. (i.e. in Williamsburg and many areas in Eretz Yisroel.)

  • #1161686

    illini07
    Member

    Is it appropriate for women to leave the house without an escort? Without a burqa?

  • #1161687

    shindy
    Member

    It’s appropriate if they know how to drive!!! This a.m. I was in the gym’s parking lot, this woman in front of me was looking for a place to park, all of a sudden she started backing into me! I of course beeped at her, and in the gym told her LOOK BEFORE YOU START BACKING OUT!!! That would have been trouble for her and for me!

  • #1161688

    ushmartem meod es nafshochem (ok, i cant transliterate, but you get the posuk)

    Women are known to be safer drivers then men are!

    By the way- what are women suppossed to do if they need to take their child to the doctor or whatever in the middle of the day and their husband is at kollel/work??? Are they to walk (now, remember what it is like having a sick child…)

    or take a sick kid on a bus? (and get everyone else sick, including the elderly?)

  • #1161689

    noitallmr
    Member

    “a difference if the woman is in the driver’s seat or the front passenger seat…”

    Sure there’s a difference. A woman driving is definitely a lot more attracting then just being in the passenger seat.

    I don’t think there’s any problem in woman driving in all issues including Tznius. But it depends what car though. If it’s a flashy colored car or 4 x 4 I think that’s wrong but a normal 5/7 seater car’s fine.

  • #1161690

    Joseph
    Member

    Bottom line is to follow your husbands minhug/poisek in this matter (as you should in all mattters.)

  • #1161691

    shindy
    Member

    havesomeseichel,

    You raise a good point. Here in Rockland County, many of the chassidic women do not drive. Either their husbands drive them or they get a ride by a non chassidic lady (like me) or they take a taxi to doctor appointments, etc. They have a private bus company that takes their under five children to nursery. They are used to this way of life. I am in a way glad because if they drove, just think of the traffic! Some tell me that they are glad they don’t drive otherwise they would be running around all day.

  • #1161692

    shindy
    Member

    I think it is more tznius for a woman to drive than to walk in the street, in the car noone sees her, but everyone passes by her when she walks on a busy street. Not meaning that a woman should not walk on a street, but in my opinion she is more noticable walking outside than in a car.

  • #1161693

    Proud Jew
    Member

    Harav Hagoan Reb Shmuel Wosner, One of the the Poskei Hador, writes in a Kol Korei:

    A Woman who drives is considered “OIVER AL DAS YEHUDIS”

  • #1161694

    of course it depends on what people think thay should dolike the chasidish woman dont drive, but they would probaly be better off if they did. when you have a family and you need to do grocery shopping where do you put your stuff when your husband is at work. taxis are expensive and you cant always depend on other people for rides.of course it depends on what you hold by like the chasidish woman but

  • #1161695

    i once started a thread like this but it disapeared


    why dont chasidish laides drive? i know your all going to tell me its not tznius BUT WHY? its not like they stay in there house all day? they have to get places-so they walk more thats worse then driving…..we all want our husbands to learn but im assuming they theres a lot more bittle torah if they have to keep stoping and driving there kids places


    i mammesh dont understand can someone please explain this to me-thanx

  • #1161696

    heimesheyid
    Member

    First of all let’s just back track a second.

    #1 Ladies are not supposed to be on the street period! ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????! And thats a Gemara! this whole thimg that ladies walk around on the street started just after the Milchamah and R’ Moshe Z”l write in a Tsuvah (Yoreh Deah 55)that he’s very disturbed about this fact, which started in America.

    #2 DELETED BY MODERATOR – THIS IS A WARNING

  • #1161697

    heimesheyid
    Member

    Way to go “Proud Jew”… Let’s sing that loud so the world can hear…

  • #1161698

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Oy vey, women drivers, oy vey. (Not halachically, just practically.) When I am behind a women driver, I know my trip will take 3 times as long. Don’t even get me started on this subject. Oy vey.

  • #1161699

    What could possibly be inappropriate about women driving? I am not disagreeing here to disagree, I literally DO NOT UNDERSTAND what the issue is. It makes no sense to me.

    What’s next? Should women sit in their houses with the curtains drawn all day since after all “kol kevudah bas melech penima”???

  • #1161700

    Joseph
    Member

    jf02, FINALLY you actually have a good idea! 🙂

  • #1161701

    oomis
    Member

    I think no woman should drive – as long as her husband is prepared to be her private chauffeur 24/7. But since the very guys who are against their women driving are the very guys who are NEVER available to drive them anywhere, it would behoove them to keep their opinions to themselves and not seek to make their wives’ lives even harder than they already are. It is no less tzniusDIG (the word Tznius means “modesty” not “modest”) for a woman to ride on a camel (and did not Rachel Emainu, the paradigm for Tznius sit atop a camel when her father questioned her about the stolen idols), than for her to drive a car. In fact the camel riding is LESS tzniusdig, because in the car, she is at least completely not visible from the shoulders down. Those who do not want their women to drive, do so out of a misguided belief that it will “hobble” them and keep them close to home, IMO. IF the chassidim are relying upon NON-chassidic women to drive their wives to necessary appointments, would you not agree that this sounds a little hypocritical?

  • #1161702

    Joseph
    Member

    oomis, when you become a posek, you can fathom whatever logic, however wrong, that suits your desire.

    Btw, I DO agree with Pashuteh Yid’s point here…

  • #1161703

    shindy
    Member

    oomis1105, I am with you all the way. The chassidish women ask me to drive them places (I had one lady who thought she could call me at home, as if I was a free car sevice). Another chassidish lady asked me if she could come to my house and watch a movie, how shocked she was to learn I don’t have any, haha I showed her! Maybe they forget the reasons for their minhagim. Again, I will state that I am thrilled they don’t drive, traffic is bad enough as it is!

  • #1161704

    Nobody
    Member

    This question is relative to where the woman lives and who she is.

    Some woman drive to get from A to B and as part of their day to day living. Some woman drive about in their cars just to be seen. Some woman drive l’shem mitzva i.e bikur choilim.

    Pashuteh Yid, keep your silly comments to yourself!!! driving behind a guy who has his cell in one hand and a cigarette in the other, drinking a coffe at the same time is so common, you just don’t see it. It’s also illegal and dangerous.

    Every woman who drives I am sure is doing so with the approval of her husband and local minhag and that’s all that matters

  • #1161705

    shindy
    Member

    Men are known to speed, ladies are more careful and cautious when they drive. You guys should slow down, or you will get a ticket.

  • #1161706

    ok…. women are now not allowed to drive or even walk on the street. Next- not allowing them to learn to read and write. Then they cannot speak outdoors at all- even in a whisper–. Oh! Dont forget the burkas!

  • #1161707

    jfem02

    i agree w u! i dont want to start a fight i just want to understand WHY its not tzanua? why is it better to be snooring rides from e/o and yes be standing in the street forever waiting for your ride? i understand that the chasidim dont drive and im not telling them they have to drive, i just want to know why? my friend has a sis-in-law who doesnt drive and she never has time to do a/t for herself bec shes always chauffeuring her s-i-l and her kids and what about the chassidish schools who dont let there teachers drive at all not just not to school????someone please explain this to me

  • #1161708

    Will Hill
    Member

    Who’s silly idea was it anyways to give them driving license’s in the first place?

    (Probably the same crowd that made the mistake of giving them suffrage…)

  • #1161709

    oomis
    Member

    Joseph,believe me when I say I neither have the desire nor the ability to pasken. This is not an issue that requires a p’sak. Maybe women should also not walk in the street? Ladies are generally better and safer drivers than men. They don’t have the burning need to use their vehicle as an extension of themselves, a factor with which many men choose the cars that they buy. It’s a “guy” thing. And those of you men who are honest with yourselves, know this to be true. A woman in the frum velt especially if she is supporting her family, needs to be able to easily get from point A to point B. And if you think that shopping without a car is so easy – it ain’t. Women need to be able to enjoy a little bit of freedom, as well – or is that the problem, as you see it?

  • #1161710

    Joseph
    Member

    oomis: Then leave it to whose job it is to make these decisions — Rabbonim & Poskim. If THEY decide its a tznius issue, you and I are nothings and can say nothing regarding THEIR decision for their kehilos. (If you are of a different kehila, simply follow your Rabbonim and let them follow theirs.)

  • #1161711

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Will Hill ROFL!!

    Jfem – I agree with you. I have no idea the issue of why a woman couldnt drive. But then again, we agree that women can learn gemara so clearly we are out of srts with the people here!

  • #1161712

    posek hador
    Member

    TZNIUS_ means modesty- which means not being flashy or sticking out. Like what noitallmr said don’t think there’s any problem in woman driving in all issues including Tznius. But it depends what car though. If it’s a flashy colored car or 4 x 4 I think that’s wrong but a normal 5/7 seater car’s fine.

    modesty MEANS NOT STICKING OUT. FINISHED.

    THERE is a gemarah in meseches avodah zarah daf 18a relates the story of rav chanina ben tradion (one of the asarah harugei malchus HYD) and what happened to his entire family about his daughter the gemarah says ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????????? Trans. She was put in the bais Znus and the midah c`neged middah is once she was going in front of some officers of rome. she heard one of them commenting HOW nice is her steps [ the way she walks]

    after hearing that she was careful about her steps [ lit. she walked even nicer] and it is middah k`neged middah etc.

    REb mattisyahu solomon shlita in amussar shiur translated and learned the gemarah like this

    SHE WAS EXTRA TZNIUS TO THE POINT WHERE SHE STUCK OUT. SHE THOUGHT BY DOING THIS IT IS TZNIUS BUT THE POINT OF TZNIUS IS NOT TO STICK OUT. AND WHEN SHE HEARD THE OFFICERS SHE WALKED REGULAR. TZNIUS IS TO BE NORMAL AND NOT FLASHY. THAT IS WHY IT IS ASSUR TO WHERE RED.

    ALSO SHMIRAS AYNIAIM IS A CHIYUV ON THE MAN NOT THE WOMEN

    POSEK HADOR

  • #1161713

    i still dont understand whats not tznius about driving?

  • #1161715

    Chuck Schwab
    Member

    sjs, what makes you think he was kidding… suffrage was certainly a mistake.

  • #1161716

    I could never understand what was not tsniusdik about women driving until I went to seminary in a little town in the negev. In this little town NO women drove cars. I lived in that town for two years. During my second year there we had a french lady teacher who commuted from Yerushalayim. Everyone was shocked and embarrassed every time she drove into town. Actually, most people pitied her for being so modern and quite simply “not getting it”. Several years passed. Upon visiting this town once again some 15 years after having left… I got the shock of my life. About 90% of the women were driving cars! The women who did not drive became the minority. Driving suddenly became the “in” thing to do. I was so saddened.

    Go explain a feeling to people. To this day I do not drive. Either I walk to where I need to go or I take a car service. Is it an inconvenience? Sure. Difficult? Absolutely. Frustrating? Often. But who ever said that life was supposed to be easy? I only go out when I have to go out. Otherwise, I’m quite content to stay home. Some women have a hobby of “window shopping”. It’s a sickness. And it’s very, very sad. Others find nothing wrong with going out and eating in restaurants. People have a misunderstanding that eating is a matter of etiquette. Eating has nothing to do with etiquette and everything to do with TSNIUS.

    I’m sure you are all going to come down on me with requests of proofs. Prove it… prove it… prove it. Where exactly is it written???? I get that all the time on this website. Is it so unheard of to have an innate feeling of what is right and what is wrong without having to prove every dot, comma & period?

  • #1161717

    anon for this
    Participant

    Queen of Persia,

    I understand that you feel that not driving is a more tznius way to behave. And perhaps in E”Y the situation is different. But I live in the northeast and if I didn’t drive, I wouldn’t be able to take my children to school, playdates, or doctor appointments. I would also not be able to shop for groceries or other necessities. All of these places are too far to walk (especially with little kids) and using a car service to get to them would be prohibitively expensive (not to mention dangerous, since most car services don’t have car seats). Bus service would be very expensive and most stores here don’t deliver.

    I shop for clothing for myself about once a year. I don’t “window shop”, since I take at least a couple of kids with me almost everywhere I go, and they have little patience for window shopping. About once a month or so, I “eat” at a pizza shop or similar establishment with my children. (Actually, since I’m supervising my children I eat very little). So your examples about women who “window shop” or eat at restaurants don’t apply to me. And this is true of most of the frum women in my city.

    Truly, my life would be easier if I didn’t drive, because then my husband would have to do all of these errands. But it would make his life much more difficult. My daughter has a classmate whose mother does not drive, so this girl needs to ask other people for rides instead. I don’t think she enjoys it that much.

  • #1161718

    SJSinNYC: What does ROFL stand for?

  • #1161719

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Queen, no one minds if you feel that you are upholding your feeling of tznius if YOU dont drive. Its a problem when people say things like “its assur for women to drive” and that is where asking for sources come in.

    Honestly, I think you have it backwards. Riding on a bus has the potential to be a lot less tzanua than driving a car. After all, on a bus you could trip (either drawing attention to yourself or having your clothes possibly shift improperly), you could bump into a man, you could sneeze loudly and draw attention to yourself…whereas in a car, the only thing people would see is your head for a moment as you drive by.

    Just remember – innate feeling of “right and wrong” are not a Jewish concept. We believe in halacha and that everything stems from the Torah. Going with what you think is “right and wrong” is very dangerous and can lead to you breaking halacha because your thougts were different.

  • #1161720

    illini07
    Member

    Schwab:

    And clearly so was the free-exercise clause…

  • #1161721

    nfgo
    Member

    oomis1105: I assume you meant that a husband must be prepared to drive 24/6, not 24/7.

  • #1161722

    mdlevine
    Member

    nfgo – 24/7 could be correct – one time a little over three years ago at around 1AM on Shabbos, the taxi didn’t show up amd I indeed had to drive my wife to the hospital.

  • #1161723

    Nobody
    Member

    Typical, here we go again fighting men versus the women.

    Do you think the time will come when we will all agree on one subject – don’t bother answering!

  • #1161724

    Joseph
    Member

    No one is imposing a No Women Drivers rule on worldwide Jewry.

    But appreciate the holy minhugim of others that have been applied by Gedolei Yisroel ZT’L and Shlita that are fully rooted in our holy Torah — even if YOU don’t understand the logic.

  • #1161725

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph – is this considered a minhag or a chumrah? I would call this a chumrah. If its a chumrah, it means there is a reason to be extra strict – one which I dont understand. Chumrah’s need logic – they arent halacha and you get to choose if you want to take on extra stringencies.

  • #1161726

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Harav Hagoan Reb Shmuel Wosner, One of the the Poskei Hador, writes in a Kol Korei:

    A Woman who drives is considered “OIVER AL DAS YEHUDIS”

    I’ve love to know the context of this statement, as well as its parameters. Anyone have any further info?

    The Wolf

  • #1161727

    Someone commented before about flashy cars not being tzniyus. I just wanted to add that it works for both men and women. Men (who normally buy the cars) should not waste time and money on flashy cars- even if they are the ones who will drive them!

    Driving seems to be a chumrah that some rabanim have instituted. Please explain what makes driving more untzniyus then WALKING or HITCHING RIDES or FALLING OVER MEN ON BUSES WHEN MEN WONT GET UP FOR THE WOMEN.

  • #1161728

    oomis
    Member

    “oomis: Then leave it to whose job it is to make these decisions — Rabbonim & Poskim. If THEY decide its a tznius issue, you and I are nothings and can say nothing regarding THEIR decision for their kehilos. (If you are of a different kehila, simply follow your Rabbonim and let them follow theirs.) “

    I am sorry,but I do not agree with you that this is a rabbinical issue whatsoever. Your rabbonim and poskim (not mine) who say it is assur, may have a very different mindset than most others. No one is supposed to asser something that imposes a hardship on most of the klal, and will sure to not be followed by the rohv am (I am not talking about mamesh halacha from the Torah, but rather areas that are shades of gray). Women (hello!) comprise more than a majority of klal Yisroel. When women had other modes of transportation, they used them. Supposing a woman is unmarried, widowed, divorced, etc. Should she have to wait for someone to drive her around? SHould she have to take cabs (very expensive on a regular basis) and public transport late at night, rather than the safety of her own car? In olden times, are you telling me frum women never drove a wagon or rode on a horse or donkey? NEVER?????? I do not believe that. And neither do most people. AS I Said earlier, our Emahos CLEARLY did. A horse is less tzniusdig for a woman to sit on, then a car. I won’t even ride a bicycle, even in a very long skirt, as I have seen many frum women do, because it is a potentially untzniusdig view from the back.

  • #1161729

    Joseph
    Member

    SJS, Even if it is a chumra, if the Rabbonim of the Kehila decree it, it is obligatory upon all members of the Kehila whether they understand it or not.

  • #1161730

    oomis
    Member

    Incumbent upon members of a specific Kehillah – yes. But certainly not incumbent upon the rest of us. And even within the parameters of the Kehillah, a rov is not supposed to make a gezaira that cannot (or worse, WILL not) be followed by the majority, when it is not a matter of clear halacha l’maiseh, but rather that rov’s personal hashkafa. To give an example, my Rov would not eat at a certain restaurant. But when asked if it was kosher, he said, “Absolutely,” and if asked if he would eat there, would say that he only assers on himself, but there is no chashash. He understood that a standard that he set for himself, for whatever reason, was not necessarily one that others had to set for themselves.

  • #1161731

    Joseph:

    What does your rav have to say about the subject? Did you ask him?

  • #1161732

    teenager
    Member

    I drive and see no problem with it at all.

    A chasid was driving behind me, and when we both got out at the same place, he asked if that was me driving. I responded in the affirmative and he was like wow you drive really well.. for a women. That really bothered me.

    Also if you dont let your women drive, how is it anymore ok to hitch a ride with a women? I get asked by chasidish men a lot to drive them places, you dont think thats untzniusdik with me being a 19 year old girl?

  • #1161733

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Mrs. Beautiful: ROFL = rolling on the floor laughing. Its not literal 🙂

    Joseph, I am not 100% sure you are right on the chumrah thing (but I could be wrong). Isnt the point of a chumrah to be extra strict for yourself? A rav can ask his congregation to take it on, but if you are adding a chumrah there would seem to be a need for an explanation. After all, its an addition to halacha. But then again, I could be 100% wrong. Feel free to clarify.

  • #1161734

    Chacham2
    Member

    teenager: That does seem very wrong. How old are these men?

  • #1161735

    teenager:

    Yes! Please don’t offer a ride to strange men, even if they look frum!

  • #1161736

    Nobody
    Member

    Teenager, Don’t think that because these guys are dressed chassidish they are. Genuine Chassidim would not, ever, ever ask a young girl or any female for a ride, let alone comment on her driving. The chassishe guy who made that comment to you was possibly trying to flirt with you and was possibly waiting for your retort to start a conversation. I hope I am very, very wrong here. Before you all have a go at me, note I said possibly, twice and i also said I hoped I was wrong.

    Don’t ever, ever drive a chassidishe guy somewhere alone in your car – this is not natural – are you mad or what?

    You need to be more wary, less trusting (unfortunately) and be more on your guard to personal safety.

    I am sad to be writing this but I am like an owl, old and wise!

  • #1161737

    Feif Un
    Member

    YW Editor, I think this thread should be closed. A woman whose husband doesn’t want her driving DEFINITELY wouldn’t want her talking to anonymous men on the internet.

    Plus, everyone else is requesting that threads be closed and getting it, I’m feeling left out.

  • #1161738

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I get asked by chasidish men a lot to drive them places, you dont think thats untzniusdik with me being a 19 year old girl?

    Forget tznius for the moment, unless you know these men, it’s downright unsafe.

    The rule in my car is that I don’t pick up hitchhikers, under any circumstances, no matter how “frum” they look. If someone is broken down on the road, I’ll offer to call for help, or possibly help out in some other way, but I will not allow strangers in my car. It’s a simple matter of safety.

    The Wolf

  • #1161739

    teenager
    Member

    I would never give men a ride, they ask I dont offer but I refuse. They are all ages from teenagers- 40’s or so, I dont really look at them to much.

  • #1161740

    I cant imagine that a man would ask a teenager for a ride. There is something very very wrong with that. In fact you really shouldnt accept hitchhikers altogether. Especially since u r only 19.

  • #1161741

    i knoe what shes talking about–all these chassidish men on street corners of b.p. with there hands sticking out they try to stop u…but when u slow down and u give them a look they stop asking

  • #1161742

    teenager
    Member

    I dont live in bp, and i dont mean the hitchikers with their hands sticking out, they are not asking me personally, they are just looking for anyone to give them a ride. I am talking about when men specificaly come over to me. And dont worry I know all about saftey, as I said before I would never give them a ride.

  • #1161743

    we got off of the original topic … women not being allowed to drive is the most ridiculous question i have seen discussed here so far … as to whether or not they can drive … (lol, kidding)

  • #1161744

    Joseph
    Member

    Wolf – What if you pass a Yid late stuck in Hicksville or highway (no mans land) and your cell is out?

    DHI – Those guys have their hitching finger up for every car, long before they know who the driver is.

  • #1161745

    Bogen
    Member

    A womans place is in the home. (This is per the Torah.)

  • #1161746

    bored@work
    Participant

    Firstly about woman driving, I can understand as an extra chumra of tzinues that people may not do it, and I know woman personally who do not drive, and guess what they live and get around places. about chassidish men hitching rides, tonight in bp somone was walking around from car to car asking but when he got to mine and saw it was a girl he did not stop to ask. Also besides for giving rides to anyone that askes I go to public busses and give jewish people a ride home from there. U may think I am crazy but I feel if i want to do something good hashem will help.

  • #1161747

    bored@work-

    “U may think I am crazy but I feel if i want to do something good H-shem will help.”

    A couple of years ago there were a two women in Williamsburg who were given rides by a chasidish-looking man who then attacked them.

    In Eretz Yisroel, Arab terrorists sometimes get dressed as frum people – sometimes as chasidim – to lure victimes.

    We have all heard of stories – possibly urban legends – about nochrim who travel in the catskills with a yarmulka because they know that free roadside assistance is available if they put it on.

    I once had a couple of young frum boys, about 11 or 12, approach me while I was fueling at a gas station and ask for a ride. I gave them a quarter (I didn’t have a cell phone) and told them to call their parents and get their OK before I would do so, because 1) I wanted their parents to know that they approached a stranger for a ride and 2) I would not give them a ride without their parent’s haskama.

    I implore you in the strongest possible terms NOT to give rides to people you don’t know.

    Unless you know me…

    -If you see me standing and waiting at a bus stop, please pass me by.

    -If you see my children waiting at a city bus stop you do NOT have my permission to offer them a ride.

    Chas v’sholom that with your good-hearted intentions you are taken advantage of by an evil individual in a way that can cause you and your family anguish for years to come.

  • #1161748

    illini07
    Member

    Bogen:

    Tell that to all the families where the father is learning in kollel all day who wouldn’t be able to EAT if the wife didn’t work.

  • #1161749

    bored@work
    Participant

    Thank you I can only try – you know what I will go ask a rav tonight if I am plain stupid and I will let you know, I just remember those high school days waiting at the bus stop and as the cars drove by I would think why can they just not stop, so I try to help others, but I will find out.

    ilini07- I think she was not talking about kollel families but the typical ones where the husband works and the wife as well just to bring in more money. Rabbi Wallerstein spoke I think it was tisha b’av and he said how our parents were raised in much better homes because their mothers were home for them but in our days the mothers are at work as well, which does effect the family. So mother working can be the ideal but for circumstances that it cannot be done like if the husband is learning in kollel or they need money it is understandable.

  • #1161750

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf – What if you pass a Yid late stuck in Hicksville or highway (no mans land) and your cell is out?

    For starters, I rarely leave the city, so it’s not too much of an issue for me.

    In any event, if something like that were to occur, I would offer to physically go and get help. I still would not take a stranger in my car. Feel free to disparage me for it if you like.

    The Wolf

  • #1161751

    Joseph: What if you pass a Yid late stuck in Hicksville or highway (no mans land) and your cell is out?

    You have still not answered what your rav says about women driving!

  • #1161752

    Joseph
    Member

    I don’t particularly recall discussing this issue, but I surely can inquire. Nevertheless, if I may be so bold as to predict the response, it would be along the lines Kol Hakovod to the various Rabbonim of the kehilos that have established this heilige takana in upholding tznius. (Not implying that other kehilos are obligated to follow suit.)

    I do know that the Rebbetzin has never driven.

  • #1161753

    intellegent
    Member

    This is one subject that is really rediculous to argue about.

    I personally have a drivers licence and plan on driving when I move back to the USA. My mother-in-law does not drive to this day and it really hinders her. She barely gets out. When my sisters-in-law (her daughters) were engaged, they would take her shopping instead of she taking them. She has to rely on her husband and children to get around which I think is a bit demeaning.

    In any case, I can see why some people would not allow their wives, girls to drive. But I will still continue to drive. It is a matter of opinion and I don’t recall seeing signs up from anti-women-drivers against women driving so I don’t see what the point of arguing is! (My father personally does not allow us [girls and boys] to drive before we get engaged/married. But he is not against women driving. My mother drives.)

    Just a cute vignette, my sister was driving in Williamsburg and a few little boys pointed at her car and called out, “Kick! Ah Mama Driv’d!” (“Look! A mother driving!)

  • #1161754

    illini07
    Member

    Bored:

    But if the Torah says the woman’s place is in the home, it’s in the home, no ifs ands or buts about it. /sarcasm

    With day school tuition the way it is, and with the cost of having several children, there is rarely such a thing as a man working and the wife working “just to bring extra money in.”

  • #1161755

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    intellegent, out of real curiosity – what do you understand about women not driving? I really dont get the issue. I would think being in your private car would be much better than in public transportation. Its not an issue I can even understand the other side, and I would like to.

  • #1161756

    intellegent
    Member

    SJSinNYC,

    It could be there is a very specific reason, but according to what I think (no basis, just making up) I would imagine that they consider it a man’s job. A woman sits in the back or in the passenger seat and the man drives. I guess it’s a way of having the woman being more passive then active. I don’t really have a very good explanation and as I said, I am very happy to be able to drive and don’t think there is something majorly wrong with it. I do respect those who have this minhag/chumra/meshugas, (I hope I included one of the right words so no one corrects me that it is a minhag not a chumra or vice versa, we gotta be very careful with the technicalities around here…:) as believe I am open-minded enough that I can accept other people’s belief’s even if I think it’s fine.

  • #1161757

    bored@work
    Participant

    illini07:

    Although the Torah does say a womans place is in the home, Torah is more important than all so if it is possible that the husband can learn even if that means the wife will not be home it is worth it. And I do know families where the wife is working for just extra money, I know a couple, the husband opened a business for a his wife, it runs on a deficit but it is something to keep the wife busy and will probably be cheaper than her shopping all day. So every situation is different which is why the husband should have a rav he is close to to discuss such matters.

  • #1161758

    anon for this
    Participant

    The ideal that women stay at home is not realistic even for women who don’t work outside the home. I don’t work outside the home and have children in elementary school and preschoolers at home. As I noted above, I need to go out to take my children to school and doctor appointments, shop for groceries and other necessities, and supervise my children playing outside/ take them to the playground or other outings. There’s no way my husband could take care of all of these tasks and work besides. Besides, by taking my children on these errands, I teach/ model appropriate public behavior and how to interact with others.

  • #1161759

    bored@work-

    You don’t seem “plain stupid” in the least.

    You appear to be a baales chesed to a commendable degree.

    Forgive me if I worded my thoughts in an overly strong manner, but I was expressing concern about the potential risk.

    As is often the case with us older folk, when I was a young bochur I did not always practice what I now preach, and often gave lifts to frum people in Flatbush, Boro Park and the mountains. B”H there were never any problems, and the overwhelming likelihood is that you wouldn’t ever have any either. Nonetheless, it is important to recognize that that risk exists.

    With the (hopefully) added wisdom of years, I am now saying what I suppose my parents would have said to me.

    Also, there is clearly a difference between a woman giving a lift to other women or girls, or giving a ride to a man.

    Of course that is not to say that no one should ever be offered a lift – a few years back my wife picked up a frum man who was being pursued by a group of shachorim.

    My opinion on this is not halacha-based at all, but rather on keeping onseself safe – you may want to ask your parents their thoughts, rather than a rav.

  • #1161760

    bored@work
    Participant

    Thank you for your concern I can only try, I do not pick up men only ladies or girls, but I guess maybe I should ask my parent what they think of it… It’s just so hard to just pass by these people waiting by the bus or just walking the streets in the cold…

  • #1161761

    The Big One
    Member

    Has there been any discussion regarding the safety issue (or lack thereof) of having them on the road?

  • #1161762

    THE BIG ONE- why is insurance for women cheaper then men? even teenage girls it is cheaper then for teenage boys (even those older then they are)??? maybe because they are safer drivers?

    How are people to get around if they live in an area without public transportation or where it is unsafe? Outside of NY, many frum people are forced to drive because they will not trust the bus. Also, hitching is so dangerous- dont put yourself in a sakana!! In some areas, frum people live so spread out that to get to high school they need to drive. What is better- going to public school and not driving or driving to a BY/Yeshiva?

  • #1161763

    I know someone that lives in BP and said she would not like to drive for tznius purposes. Then she got married and moved to a more rural neighborhood and so she made the decision that she will drive since now its not only out of convenience but more of a Necessity . so i giess a large part of the whole discussion is where u live.

  • #1161764

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    she would not like to drive for tznius purposes.

    Perhaps someone can explain this to me. Assuming, of course, you’re not driving some unusual, expensive or otherwise outlandish car, in what way is a woman not driving related to tznius? I just don’t get it.

    The Wolf

  • #1161765

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    The Wolf – I dont understand it either!

  • #1161766

    yossiea
    Member

    That’s because we’re all kofrim. Woe onto us for not understanding such a holy and divine minhag that came down from Sinai to Moses. Nobody drove cars in the midbar and nobody drove cars during the times of the Rishonim, but woe unto us that the generations have sunk so low that we are now driving cars.

  • #1161767

    oomis
    Member

    “oomis1105: I assume you meant that a husband must be prepared to drive 24/6, not 24/7”

    My bad. Of course, 24/6 and a little bit of the 7 after Shabbos is over.

  • #1161768

    oomis
    Member

    “innate feeling of what is right and what is wrong”

    Respectfully, Queen of Persia , you have no innate feeling of what is right and wrong. You have the feeling of what you have been TAUGHT is right and wrong. Elsewhere, where the majority of people are NOT taught that it is wrong for women to drive, they have a different innate feeling. Your decision not to drive is yours alone. I commend you for sticking to your guns. But what works for you does not work for other people, necessarily, and it has nothing to do with life being fair or not. I have a suspicion about why some people feel it is untzniusdig for women to drive, and it may have to do with the physiology of the actual driving. But I am no expert. In any case, by all means do not drive, but please do not tell other women that your way is the innately right way. The reason we have the Torah, is that only Hashem knows what is inantely right or wrong. Left to our own devices, there was a time when sacrificing children to idol worship was thought to be innately right.

  • #1161769

    Will Hill
    Member

    A woman should not do a mans job. This is part of the reason many (not all) Rabbonim hold woman are forbidden to drive.

  • #1161770

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    and the reason women in some places sit in the back seat(with all 30 children)!

  • #1161771

    Chacham2
    Member

    Women have been driving since horseless carriages were invented. Since when was driving considered to be a “mans job”? I don’t understand this whole issue, and noones yet given an explanation beyond “some rabbanim forbid it”. Noones managed to yet explain how exactly it is untzniyus.

    As far as I see it, this is chumros gone wild. I’m not even going to be one of those who commend the women who dont drive. It seems silly to me.

  • #1161772

    yoshi
    Member

    A woman has the capabilities to do men’s work, but a man will never be able to do all of a woman’s work (childbirth).

    How interesting…

  • #1161773

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Will Hill –

    “A woman should not do a mans job. This is part of the reason many (not all) Rabbonim hold woman are forbidden to drive.”

    I’d like to see some sources for the “many” Rabbonim. This is quite a generalized statement; can you please back it up with some names? How many is “many?”

  • #1161774

    yossiea

    rofl

  • #1161775

    outoftowner
    Member

    Many chassidish ladies don’t drive… Many Brisker men don’t drive beshittah… (bittul torah) Here’s the sheila… Who drives when a chassidish lady marries a brisker 😉

  • #1161777

    dunno
    Member

    neither they take the car service!

  • #1161778

    Their teenager!

  • #1161779

    xerox
    Member

    dunno: good one!!

  • #1161780

    Women have enough to worry about with their own mitzvos, there’s no need to impose another hardship on them. You should see the shopping my mother used to bring home from the supermarket, like 10-15 shopping bags full of stuff. You’re telling me she should take that to the bus? Or go shopping more often and take time from the 1,000,000 other things she needs to do?

    Nobody here has yet said what disadvantages DRIVING has over other ways of getting from point A to B (bus, walking, scooter, etc). That statement from R’ Wosner needs clarification as well. What was the context? Did he mean ALL women, everywhere? IF no context and yes, all women, I think that a pretty myopic thing to say what with frum women scattered over millions of miles of terra firma in tens of thousands of different living arrangements and situations.

  • #1161781

    Josh31
    Member

    Joseph, There may be holiness – Kedusha in every Minhag (community custom). But they become like “vows” Nedarim, except on a community instead of on an individual level. Chazal (Torah leadership 1500 to 2000 years ago) warned making vows except in the most extraordinary circumstances. Minhagim can create divisions between communities, just as vows create divisions between individuals.

    Finding out that your spouse has wrapped himself or herself in vows of prohibition can be grounds for divorce if the spouse is unwilling to go to a Jewish court to get the vows released (“permitted”).

    The husband has the power to nullify vows of the wife on the day hears about them if they involve personal suffering or affect their relationship. If he fails to do so, and the vow affects their relationship or cause suffering he will be held at fault for failing to nullify.

  • #1161782

    Anonymous

    women should never be allowed to drive under its a danger to them and everyone else on the road!

  • #1161783

    Phyllis
    Member

    I drive and I find it very useful; can’t imagine not driving. In fact when i got married I had a license while my husband only had a permit! So basically when he drove, he needed me in the car legally. It was quite comical, Baruch hashem, he has his license already.

  • #1161784

    Josh31
    Member

    If a guy has such a Minhag, he should disclose it to the Shadchan (matchmaker) before the first date. If you are married and your husband newly informs you of such a Minhag, you may have the right to demand a Get (divorce) and full payment of the Kesubah.

  • #1161786

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    women should never be allowed to drive under its a danger to them and everyone else on the road!

    BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! Oh, that’s a good one! You really crack me up BLAHBLAH.

    You did know, of course, that women are *safer* drivers, on average, than men. Or were you just trying to be provocative?

    The Wolf

  • #1161787

    flatbush27
    Member

    i definitely agree to blahblah. we are just so horrible at driving. yesterday i was backing out of my driveway slowly and barely looking back and i hit my other car which i parked earlier and it was partially blocking my driveway. i hit my own car with my own car. i also believe men should definitely not drive because of shomer einayim. the number one rule of driving is you have to be looking everywhere. side to side, behind you, in front of you, above you. shomer ainayim means you dont have to see everything thats going on not just looking at inappropriate things. like if you hear something you dont have to turn around and see what happened. these days it is so simple to get around using public transportation and you just get one of those carts to get your groceries back home. people spend so much money at the supermarket buying stuff they dont need because they have and dont worry about getting it all home. if you have those cart things and take the bus you can only buy what you really need cause if you buy too much you cant get it home.

  • #1161788

    Anonymous

    nah they always get in the way if the light might turn yellow theyll stop and they have to wait untill they cant see any crs for miles untill they turn their a general inconvience

  • #1161789

    Joseph
    Member

    Josh, where did you come up with such rubbish? After getting married a woman must follow all her husband’s minhugim.

  • #1161790

    beacon
    Participant

    flatbush27: you gotta be kidding me

    blahblah: are you talking about 80 year olds?

  • #1161791

    Josh31
    Member

    Joseph, it is common sense that he is obligated to inform her before marriage of any Minhag that will have a major impact on her. Giving up the mobility of driving is way up there in terms of impact. This is much more than not eating Gebrokz (foods cooked with Matzoh meal) 7 days a year!!!

  • #1161792

    dunno
    Member

    blahblah’s describing me lol. but i do have many friends who drive in a way that u would approve of

  • #1161793

    flatbush27,

    your story reminds me of the fellow who, a couple of years ago, sued the city where he lives because a city vehicle pulled into his driveway and hit his car which was parked there. There was one catch – he is a city employee and he was the one driving the city vehicle at the time of the accident.

  • #1161794

    The Big One
    Member

    every wife should be following her baal’s customs. that is what shulchan aruch states.

  • #1161795

    intellegent
    Member

    flatbush27

    Your comment really had me holding my sides!

  • #1161796

    eyesopen
    Member

    In my town there are women who use their cars for chesed trips to drive people to hospitals, and medical appointments. They deliver Tomchei Shabbos, they help purchase and deliver clothing for the needy, they take kids to yeshiva in the morning and pick them up at night. They need their car to shop for food, run errands, banking, etc… If you live in NY, perhaps it is easier to get around because there is such a great public transportation system and a car is not as necessary. Try living without a car in LA, Florida, Denver, and many of the suburbs (moshavim) of EY that have a bus come by twice a day, maybe. Tznius has a lot to do with the minhagei hamakom, so if it is not mekubal for the woman to drive-she shouldn’t stand out, but if is the norm in the place where she lives, then she should drive.

  • #1161797

    Josh31
    Member

    “The Big One”, what you say about customs is generally true, but so is the requirement to disclose them before getting married, especially high impact customs.

  • #1161798

    Bogen
    Member

    josh31, where did you come up with that one about so-called “high impact customs”? nothing of the sort mentioned in Shulchan Aruch. Sounds like something to sooth modern orthodox sensibilities.

  • #1161799

    It is less tznius to be in a public train or bus being bumped by men and watched.A smart woman who knows how to manage a household,bring up children, work should also have the right to drive. If she believes it is wrong ,she should only live in a protected little village where she won’t need to go anywhere.

  • #1161800

    Phyllis
    Member

    I understand that a man has to inform he wife of his minhagim prior to marriage, however, lets not get carried away. Any mature girl would not get so frightened about the idea of not driving. In my opinion, leave petty things like this to “do as u please”. Save disagreements for bigger and better things…(Or just dont do them at all!)

  • #1161801

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    There are also exceptions allowed with the minhag thing – my husband davens nusach sephard and I daven ashkenaz. I ask my Rabbi if I could stay with Ashkenaz (davening sephard just trips me up- if it were totally different that would be fine, but its the random few words being changed here and there…)

    My rabbi said that wasnt a problem.

  • #1161802

    lesschumras
    Participant

    tell me again about how jewishfeminist doesn’t need feminisim because we treat women with such respect. Among the many examples on YWN threads:

    * women can’t drive without the husband’s agreement

    * women can’t leave the house without the husband’s agreement

    * Men are machmir on eruvim, particularly in Brooklyn, because it’s the

    women who must remain housebound for years until the last child can walk

    while the men are free to come and go

    * Men determine for their wives what they can wear and what is considered

    tzniyas

    * Women are forbidden to learn Gemorra, and probably lack the mental capacity

    * Women must walk behind men in a subservient position

    * Men are forbidden from opening a door of any kind for a woman

    Did I leave any out?

  • #1161803

    lesschumras, There are different things woman should not be doing, it is very obvious. I can add – Women should not wear pants etc…Does a/o have a problem with this?

    There are many things men cant either do, listen to women sing etc.

    I really dont see what u r trying to say? We are Jewish arn’t we? DO we question why both men and women cant eat pork?

  • #1161804

    oomis
    Member

    “Any mature girl would not get so frightened about the idea of not driving”

    Phyllis, were you serious when you posted that? Any mature girl who has been driving, would tell a man to take a hike if he forbade her from driving, UNLESS it was her own desire to refrain from driving. A mature BOY would recognize that driving is not a luxury, but a necessity nowadays for women, UNLESS he is willing to do the shopping, the carpooling, the general chauffeuring around, the doctor appointments, etc. Somehow, I think that once those guys had a taste of what their wives have to do on a regular basis, most of them would recognize the benefits of their wives driving ASAP.

  • #1161805

    intellegent
    Member

    I have no problem with someone holding that a woman shouldn’t drive but I think it is something that should be discussed beforehand (unless based on both sides backgrounds it is obvious.) It definitely has a big impact on life even as far as what kind of job she can take.

    as an aside, someone told me that her brother doesn’t drive but his wife does. He has no intentions of learning how to drive because he would waste so much time doing errands. I was not impressed. I think that’s also a bit selfish.

    lesschumras,

    What are you trying to say? Yes according to the torah ways those points generally are the way we do things.

  • #1161806

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I’m not saying that’s the way some people do things, but then don’t say women are treated with respect.

  • #1161807

    oomis
    Member

    What are you trying to say? Yes according to the torah ways those points generally are the way we do things.

    Excuse me,Intelligent, perhaps I misunderstand you, but where did you say it says in the Torah that a woman cannot leave the house without her husband’s permission?

  • #1161808

    everyone just do as you like! if your husband allows it than gr8, lucky you, if not, live with it! but if it is something that means so much to a girl (maybe she really wants to drive for chessed) then it should be discussed prob while dating. I personally know i wouldnt like to give up the freedom that comes with being able to drive and wouldnt be very happy if my husband would demand such of me. guess its something to keep in mind with the list of wants/needs in a shidduch but like good looks it shouldnt be top priority!

  • #1161809

    Joseph
    Member

    oomis, We’ve had mekors from Shlchan Orach, Rambam, etc. on this issue on at least 2 other threads months ago.

  • #1161810

    Josh31
    Member

    Bogen,

    There are four sections to Shulchan Aruch. Have you studied all 4?

    I have not studied all 4 either. There is also the “fifth section of Shulchan Aruch” called “being civilized” or “common sense”. And you do not suddenly yank the car keys from your new Kallah (bride)!!!

    This is not a strictly “Modern Orthodox” concept.

  • #1161811

    intellegent
    Member

    oomis1105,

    I guess my answer was not a good one. I was going to point out that I only skimmed the points. I guess I should have read more thoroughly. It does not say anywhere in the torah that women have to walk in a subservient manner behind her husband (at least not that I am aware of and I don’t practice this) but I meant to say that yes, there are differences between men and women. A husband is the final decider. But his points are definitely exaggerated. One point that is true ist that as far as far as I know is that generally women have to listen to their husbands. In today’s modern world it’s hard to believe but that is the way it should be (of course within reason, abuse should never be tolerated.)

    Women should ideally be treated with a lot of respect, just differently then men.

  • #1161812

    Phyllis
    Member

    Lesschumros, of course women ARE treated with respect. Women are the essence of the home. Women were given their own precious Mitzvos. Women are the backbone of their husbands.

    There is no greater respect than that of a women that accepts her role as an Ikeres Habayis with love, dresses modestly despite the outside influences etc.

    Yes, Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Pinima, so maybe that restricts her from certain things, but certainly not things that lessen her respect. In fact its the observance of these basic things u mentioned, that make the women respected.

  • #1161813

    mdlevine
    Member

    for those of you who drive in Monsey – for those who do not drive in Monsey, use your imagination.

    I was driving from 59 down 306 towards Maple. The light was changing and I was 2 or 3 car lenghts away from the light going slow because of the weather and road conditions. the car behind me swing into the left turn only lane. sped up and went though the light straight (didn’t even turn left).

    This was not the first time I have seen this on this intersection and NEVER was it a woman driver.

    where are those red-light cameras when you need one?

  • #1161814

    Zalman
    Member

    1) Women should stay inside:

    (a) Poskim

    1. Shulchan Aruch (73:1): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside. A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah…”

    i. Gra (4): Hash-m did not create Chavah from Adam’s foot, lest she roam too much (Bereishis Rabah 18:2). “Ishtecha k’Gefen Poriyah” is only when she is modest “b’Yarkesei Veisecha” (Medrash Tehilim 128:3).

    (b) Rishonim

    1. Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 13:11): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside in order that she can go to her father or a house of mourning or Simchah. She may go to these places to bestow Chesed to her friends and relatives, in order that they will come to her. She is not a prisoner who may not come and go. However, it is degrading for a woman to always be outside and on the streets. A man should prevent his wife from doing so. She should go outside once or twice a month, according to the need. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penimah”.

    i. Source (Magid Mishneh): Bereishis Rabah (45:5) says that when the Torah discusses the detriment of women, it says that they go out – ‘Va’Tetzei Dinah”. The Sifri (Tetzei 242 (23)), regarding a Na’arah Me’orasah who was enticed to Zenus, says that a breach (going out in the city) calls to the thief. Bereishis Rabah (8:12) reads “Kivshuha” like ‘Kavshah’ to teach that a husband should prevent his wife from going out too much.

    2. Rambam (Nedarim 12:11): If a woman vowed not to give water to her husband’s animals, he cannot annul it. A wife need not do this for her husband.

    i. Kesef Mishneh: A wife must give straw to her husband’s animals, but she need not give water. This is because normally one leaves the house to go to the river or spring for this, and “Kol Kevudah…”

    4. Rosh (Kesuvos 13:17): If a man married a woman from a city of the same quality as his own, even if he married her in his city we force him to live in her city. We learn from “Be’ulas Ba’al”… Another reason is because he can go to visit his friends, but she cannot, due to “Kol Kevudah.”

    5. Rosh (Shevu’os 4:2): The Ri ha’Levi learns from our Gemara that we do not disgrace an honorable woman to go to Beis Din, due to “Kol Kevudah.” Rather, we send a Shali’ach of Beis Din to hear her claims. The Aruch and R. Chananel agree. The Ramban and Teshuvos of the Rif and Rav Sadya Gaon do not allow this. The Rif allows only that Beis Din send scribes to record her claim. The same applies to a Chacham for whom it is degrading to argue with Amei ha’Aretz in Beis Din; his honor is greater than a woman’s.

    i. Teshuvos Maimoniyos (Mishpatim 5): The Gemara (Nazir 12a) says that women are Kevu’os due to “Kol Kevudah.”

    (c) Gemara

    1. (R. Yochanan): Avner told Do’eg ‘We learned that an Amoni and a Mo’avi are forbidden, but an Amonis and a Mo’avis are not!’

    2. Question (Do’eg): If so, you should say that a Mitzri is forbidden, not a Mitzris!

    3. Answer (Avner): Mo’avim are forbidden “Because they did not go out to greet you with bread and water.” This does not apply to women. It is normal for men to go out to greet, but not for women.

    4. Objection (Do’eg): The men should have gone out to greet the men, and the women to greet the women!

    5. Avner was silent.

    6. Question: How can we answer?

    7. Answer #1 (Chachamim of Bavel): “Kol Kevudah Vas Melech Penimah” (it is dishonorable for women to go outside, even to greet women).

    8. Answer #2 (Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael): We learn this from ” … Where is your wife Sarah?” (It is praiseworthy that she stayed in the tent.)

    9. (Beraisa – R. Yehudah): “Amoni” and “Mo’avi” are forbidden, not Amonis and Mo’avis;

    10. R. Shimon says, “Because they did not go out …” – it is the way of a man …

    11. Nazir 12a (R. Yochanan): If Reuven made a Shali’ach to be Mekadesh an unspecified woman and the agent died, Reuven may not marry any woman (Leah), lest the Shali’ach was Mekadesh Leah’s relative to Reuven.

    12. Question (Reish Lakish): When a Hekdesh bird flies away, we are not concerned about other birds (lest it is the Hekdesh bird; we follow the majority. The same should apply here (most women are not Leah’s relatives)!

    13. Answer (R. Yochanan): Because woman do not roam, the Safek is considered Kavu’a (fixed), so we don’t follow the majority.

    15. Gitin 12a (Beraisa): If a wife was exiled to a refuge city, her husband must feed her. He can tell her to feed herself from her earnings only if she earns enough to feed herself.

    16. Question: If she can earn enough, this is obvious!

    17. Answer: One might have thought that due to “Kol Kevudah…”, she need not work and he must feed her. The Beraisa teaches that this is not so.

    18. Shevu’os 30a – Question: What is the source that (women are invalid witnesses, so) Shevu’as ha’Edus does not apply to women?

    19. Answer (Beraisa): “V’Omdu Shnei ha’Anashim” refers to the witnesses.

    20. Question: Perhaps it refers to the parties in the case!

    21. Answer #1: The Torah would not say “men”, for women also need to come for judgment.

    22. Answer #2: If you prefer, you can learn from “Shnei” (masculine).

    23. Question: What objection might one have to the first answer?

    24. Answer: Normally women do not come to Beis Din for judgment (rather, they send a man to plead their case), due to “Kol Kevudah…”

  • #1161815

    oomis
    Member

    A husband is the final decider

    Not according to Sara, Rivka, Rochel, and Leah Emainu. Not according to Miriam, Tzipporah, Devorah, Rachav, etc.

    And Zalman, BOY did you twist this: “The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah…” That does not mean a woman has to stay inside, it means her real beauty is her INNER BEAUTY, that externals are not what are important. That her middos are part of her internal essence, and that is what is her true kovod. As to all the excellent quotes that you posted, many of them are observations of the times. Women do not wear burkas today, and walk with faces veiled, not Jewish women anyway. It is typical for women to leave the home. And you cannot have it both ways. Either it is assur for them to leave the home as you imply, or meritorious that they stay in, as you state, or it is

    a good thing, because without women leaving the home and earning the parnassah, all those lovely yeshivah husbands in kollel would be unable to be there all day. So it is ok for women to do something that all the chachomim (according to your own excellently researched post) agree is NOT a good thing or tzniusdig, or b’kovodig, BECAUSE THEIR HUSBANDS WANT THEM TO. Kinderlach, can we say … never mind, I am refraining from using the expression that this type of thinking calls to mind.

  • #1161816

    Zalman
    Member

    uhh oomis, sorry for offending your very sensitive modern orthodox feelings. But everything in my preceding comment were verbatim quotes from the Gemora, Shulchan Aruch, Rambam and many other meforshim. NONE of it were my own words or chiddushim. So the problem you have you’ll have to take up with the Shulchan Aruch, not me.

    And btw, Sara, Rivka, Rochel, and Leah Emainu looked towards Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov Avinu for all their guidance.

    Yeah, I know. Your MO Rabbi never mentioned any of this in his “Shabbat speeches”.

  • #1161817

    Zalman
    Member

    oomis, not that I intended to be strident with you, but aside from being incorrect the tone of your comment was acerbic and dismissive.

  • #1161818

    oomis
    Member

    “And btw, Sara, Rivka, Rochel, and Leah Emainu looked towards Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov Avinu for all their guidance.

    Yeah, I know. Your MO Rabbi never mentioned any of this in his “Shabbat speeches”

    No they did not, NOT when it counted the most. Sara threw hagar out with Avraham’s bechor Yishmael. She didn’t ask his permission. Rivka took the brachos meant for Esav out of Yitchak’s hands, and made sure Yaakov got them. She didn;’t ask his permission. Rochel took her father’s idols, to keep him from doing avoda zara. She didn’t ask Yaakov’s permission (and ended up dying for that, but then again, it was al kiddush Hashem that she did what she did, and that is why she is the one who is mevaka al baneha and no one else) Leah did not ask her husband’s permission to be with him. She gave her son’s flowers to Rachel, and then informed her husband that he was going to be with her that night.

    BTW, you know nothing about me, yet you make what superficially sounds like pejorative comments about my MO sensitivities, and even more, you comment about my Rov, about whom you surely have no basis or right to make what appears to be a negative judgment. I will stack my rov and his shabbos drashas against yours any day. My rov is an extremely learned man a musmach of Torah Vadaas, and your “MO Rabbi” comment was unworthy and abysmally off-base. I understand that your comments all come from choshuvah sources, but are they all halacha l’maiseh, or opinions about women’s behavior, from a time when ALL women were totally subservient to men, and NOT treated at equal partners in their marriages? And again, I will reiterate, if what you say is halacha, then there is no excuse for even one kollel wife to be out working instead of running her home. Period.

  • #1161819

    Zalman
    Member

    The Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, etc. (amongst the other varied sources) is halacha lmaaisa. I apologize in advance for your MO sensibilities that are in sync with Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug and Susan B. Anthony, rather than the Chofetz Chaim, the Chazon Ish, and the Steipler Gaon.

    Its just too bad that you view 3,000 years of glorious Jewish history as “women were totally subservient to men, and NOT treated at equal partners in their marriages.” For us Torah-based traditionalist, we will continue living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai.

  • #1161820

    intellegent
    Member

    “Sara threw hagar out with Avraham’s bechor Yishmael. She didn’t ask his permission.”

    I remember learning that H-m had to tell Avraham that Sara is right and Yishmoel and Hagar should be sent away. If Sara was able to accomplish this without Avraham’s permission/consent, why did H-m have to speak to him about this?

  • #1161821

    intellegent
    Member

    Zalman,

    Thanks. It’s nice to see some people have their hashkofos intact despite modern propoganda.

  • #1161822

    EDITED at the request of the original poster

    Zalman (if you will respond):

    You are not new here, so you probably already have an answer to my question:

    How do you reconcile “Kol Kavod Bas Melech” with Kollel wives working?

    Also, do you have electricity? a Fridge? Internet? You are already not “living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai”. You sound like you want the Jews to be Amish following Halacha, not Jews (Who invented “when in Rome, do as the Romans do”).

    Lastly, with your shittos, what are you doing on the internet? Did you ask your Rav if you could be in the coffeeroom?

    Get back to me after you ask.

  • #1161823

    SAVE THE TREES KEEP WOMEN OFF THE ROAD

  • #1161825

    intellegent
    Member

    Also, do you have electricity? a Fridge? Internet? You are already not “living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai”. You sound like you want the Jews to be Amish following Halacha, not Jews (Who invented “when in Rome, do as the Romans do”).

    Modern technology that works with the torah is fine. We don’t open a light on shabbos but we use lights. No one is saying that we have to live exactly the way Avraham lived but we can’t change our hashkofos because modern times are “different”.

  • #1161826

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Intellegent, with all due respect, quoting sources does NOT mean that Zalman has his hashkofos intact despite modern propoganda.

    How many women nowadays do you know who don’t visit friends? How many do you know who only go grocery shopping 1-2X a month? With refridgeration available, we should be able to go out less not more! Remember, we don’t pasken by everything written in the gemara – there are so many arguments and opinions in there, if we followed everything we couldnt possibly manage it! Some are physical impossibilites. (not sure if I am being clear here…just basically that the gemara isnt the bottom line – we have to follow the bottom line halacah)

    Its unfortunate that many people have pledged to oust “modern propaganda” when as you yourself said on one thread, you couldn’t find anything halachically wrong with what I say. (don’t remember if you said you couldnt find anything or that you almost never find anything)

  • #1161827

    Mod: I meant all references (Zalmans & Oomis). If you leave theirs, please leave mine as well.

  • #1161828

    intellegent:

    And women driving is an example.

  • #1161829

    intellegent:

    Of course if your Rav asks you not to drive, Kol Hakavod.

    Personally, I dont understand the minhag issue. How could someone have a minhag for their wife not to drive? (unless it was not to have a woman as a Baal Agalah, which is irrelevent to driving a car) 🙂

  • #1161830

    As before:

    I am Moche for the Kavod of Oomis’ Rav, who is a Talmid Chacham and a Yarei Shomayim.

    PS. Thank you mod either way.

  • #1161831

    intellegent:

    That is not to say they should be in the street/Shuk! That falls under “Kol Kavod”. Driving is a personal thing with no interaction.

    If you are from EY, as we have seen (in the news with the bochrim kicked out of yeshiva) the Gedolim there don’t allow men to drive, so there it is some other sort of svorah.

  • #1161832

    oomis
    Member

    “The Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, etc. (amongst the other varied sources) is halacha lmaaisa. I apologize in advance for your MO sensibilities that are in sync with Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug and Susan B. Anthony, rather than the Chofetz Chaim, the Chazon Ish, and the Steipler Gaon. Its just too bad that you view 3,000 years of glorious Jewish history as “women were totally subservient to men, and NOT treated at equal partners in their marriages.” For us Torah-based traditionalist, we will continue living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai. “

    I stand by what I said before. I personally have nothing in common with the hashkafos of Ms. Steinem and Abzug, despite what you think. I find their views to be as stident and filled with self-righteous indignation as your own.You know nothing whatsoever about me, and the fact that for 3,000 years women were treated a certain way, was not always due to halacha, but to the tenor of the times. If you cannot see that, there is no further dialogue between you and me on this issue. We live in a time when we have modern conveniences (sometimes more like INconveniences), and the halacha reflects that evolution, as the rabbonim gain a greater understanding of how things work, i.e. electricity. Perhaps women did not drive wagons, though clearly they rode on camels, which could be considered as driving (before you protest, WHERE was Rochel Emainu sitting when her father came looking for the teraphim?). So it is not an issue of driving. It may have been less tsniusdig in the alte heim for women to drive a wagon in the open (though I cannot recall that women needed to do that driving, as they were homebound due to the nature of raising of their families when their husbands worked the land or did other jobs). But it surely is not untsniusdig for them to drive an auto, in which they are so encased, you cannot always tell if a man or woman is driving. In any case, do you also have a halachic objection to them riding a bike? What about walking in the street?

  • #1161833

    Josh31
    Member

    Some customs are clearly incompatible with each other. Women not driving and men in Kollel is impossible, unless they have a huge trust fund.

    Communities in which women do not drive are those in which they never started driving and men are expected to provide the total family income and run all errands needing a car.

    Nothing will push people away from keeping Torah and Mitzvos more than pushing impossible ideals.

    Chassidic customs were intended to draw people towards Judaism, not create impractical barriers to living.

    A woman who actually drives will feel “jailed” if she is suddenly told that she can no longer drive.

    If the hardliners are triumphant and impose a full raft of impractical Chumros (stringencies), we will have a breakaway from Judaism (G-d forbid) worse than the Haskalah triggered breakaway 150 years ago in Europe.

  • #1161834

    intellegent
    Member

    I have a drivers licence and I go out of the house much more often than twice a month. (at least I should)

    I saw something in Nefesh Chaya (a hebrew sefer that is a compilation of speeches from R’ shamshon Pinkes a”h). I think he says that it used to be that the house was a place of kedusha. Nowadays, that is not so women go out to look for something elsewhere.

    Times are different. It’s true and certain things are different because of that. (I think women nowadays would go into deep depression if they were to stay home all the time except for once in a while) But some people are connotating that in previous generations women were mistreated and I think that is extremely wrong. They were treated the torah way and we don’t have to come with our pea size brains compared to those of previous generations and “correct” their wrong doings. That is what I am trying to bring out, I don’t know if I am clear.

  • #1161837

    intellegent:

    You were not clear before (seemed you said the opposite), but thank you for clarifying.

    I agree 100% that Jewish women in prior generations were treated with respect (which is the torah way)(and much better than the other women btw), and should be treated with respect today as well. If they wish to drive, why not? (assuming their rav has not stated it is “assur”, of course).

    Postscript: “Kol Kavod” is a “Hanhaga”, not an “Issur”.

  • #1161838

    Josh31
    Member

    Lets get back to the orginal question from Mrs. Beautiful:

    “Is it appropriate for women to drive? My husband claims not, but I dont see a difference if the woman is in the driver’s seat or the front passenger seat…”

  • #1161839

    intellegent
    Member

    “and the fact that for 3,000 years women were treated a certain way, was not always due to halacha, but to the tenor of the times.”

    I think it is highly improper to criticize previous generations in this way. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you really mean to say.

    gavra_at_work

    I’m not sure what you were referring to, opposite of what?

  • #1161840

    intellegent:

    whether women should drive or not. you seemed to be saying no, and then turned around and clarified. If you were refering to something else, as we agree, you were not clear, and I apologize.

    I think the quote is refering to free time avalible (more now) as opposed to “Kol Kavod” being due to “the times” vs. derech bas yisroel. “Kol Kavod” is a Hanhaga that does not change with the times. What is considered “respectful” (and a husband MUST be respectful to his wife) does change with the person (as per expectations).

    Reminds me of what someone else posted a while back (don’t remember who):

    “The man is the head of the house, but the woman is the neck. And she can turn the head any way she wants.”

  • #1161841

    dd
    Member

    Whenever I wonder how our cousins, bnei yishmael in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan can be so extreme in their customs, I come to Yeshiva World and realize that some of us are only a step or two away from that.

    For the life of me, I can’t understand this thread. I understand the original post as a sociological question about how some communities can have such rules. But to see that so many people here take it seriously as having any possible relevence to halacha lema’aseh is baffling.

    I did notice that a number of posters asked about the consistency of kollel and women staying at home. None of the usual gang of kannaim here bothered to answer.

  • #1161843

    The Big One
    Member

    When the dd’s of the world start making letzonas and chozek of the Acheinu Bnei Yisroel for keeping tznius as perscribed by our Rabbonim, by calling us “extremists”, “Taliban”, “Yishmaelim”, “frummies”, etc. etc. we stand up proudly and say “Yes, we do still have emunas chachomim.”

  • #1161844

    The Big One
    Member

    Zalman, Yasher Koach for that beautiful Torah! All those Gemora’s, Poiskim, Meforshim.

    intellegent, Thank you for your sane comments.

    dd, It is truly disgusting that someone who claims to be a Jew would denigrate Bnei Torah who uphold tznius with irresponsible terms like yishmaelim, frummies, taliban, extremist, etc. You truly need to do some introspection. Yes, it very much does have relevance halacha lmaaisa, your inability to understand it not withstanding.

    Rabbosai, the point of all the Shulchon Orach and Rambam and the Gemora’s is not that ladies cannot go out. If there is a tachlis and they must go out, they can. Even if they have a valid reason to go out every day. But they must minimize it to the times that it is a necessity and not stam to go out.

  • #1161845

    Josh31
    Member

    The YWN blogs are getting a wide reputation of having hard kanoim (zealots). This topic brings out the real hardliners.

    As a matter of fact, religious zealotry is ascendant worldwide and we are not immune to this trend.

    Chasidic customs that for generations were implemented in a very civilized way are now getting into the wrong hands.

    And I do notice a pattern that many of the most zealous in the area of Tznius are very Meikel (lenient) in areas of Choshen Mishpat (interpersonal relationships).

  • #1161846

    When the “The Big One”‘s of the world start making letzonas and chozek of the Acheinu Bnei Yisroel for Deciding that anyone who is not like them is a rosha, by calling us “extremists”, “Taliban”, “Yishmaelim”, “going to Gehennom”, etc. etc. we stand up proudly and say “Yes, we do still have emunas chachomim. We do not make up our own halachas based on our feelings or the latest chumrah trend, we ask our Rav.”

    Sorry, couldn’t help myself, even though I try not to respond to the flamer/troll.

  • #1161848

    Chuck Schwab
    Member

    Josh: Apparently you prefer the hate-mongering YU’niks who have a dime a dozen blogs who’s entire geshmak in living is to attack Raabonim, Gedolim and plain ordinary Torah observant Yidden as well as various chumros etc. The fact of the matter is those Jews who are stringent with tznios are also stringent with Choshen Mishpat as well.

    gavra_at_work: When left-of-center people like yourself try to shut up anyone who they disagree with, like you did in a previous thread telling someone to not post anything in the thread after you offered your diatribe, you discredit yourself and your entire left-of-center philosophy.

    No one here, not a single poster, said every Jewish woman must stop driving. Not one. Its the mo types that cannot tolerate that there are Kehilos Kedoshim that uphold these lofty standards as per the directives of their Gedolim.

  • #1161850

    Josh31
    Member

    More bashing of YU.

    If it were not for YU, there would be tens of thousands that would be lost to Torah Judaism.

    When I said above “most zealous in the area of Tznius” I was referring to those who take it upon themselves to enforce Tznius on others, and those who adopt extreme levels to call attention to themselves. There is widespread agreement in Orthodox Jewish circles that religious enforcement in inappropriate nowadays.

  • #1161851

    ujm
    Member

    josh, you are correct about that in the sense that “if it were not for YU, there would be tens of thousands that would be lost to Torah Judaism” in that many of those Yidden would not be frum at all, and YU is a much better alternative to being frei. Where you are not correct is that halacha itself requires that halacha be enforced. I don’t know whatever gave you the idea that “there is widespread agreement in Orthodox Jewish circles” otherwise. As I said, halacha itself requires that it be enforced. I have no idea what you mean “those who adopt extreme levels” but kol hakovod to those that adapt extreme levels of tznius for themselves. May many more do so as well. Those who are on the madreiga on maintaining extreme levels of tznius are a zchus and an encouragement for the rest of us. More power to them and may we all pick up a little bit from them. It is an aveira gamur when people mock those who adapt chumros. I am tired of those in the mo crowd (and there is no other way to put it) that say there is too many chumras, etc.

  • #1161854

    Josh31
    Member

    ujm: Try this. Go to your nearest Charedi Torah leader and tell him you want to form a Tznius Patrol to attack local women not dressed properly. If you are a womean, also tell him you want to start wearing a Burqa. If you are a man tell him you want your wife in a Burqa.

  • #1161855

    ujm
    Member

    josh, i’m not sure where you’re trying to go with that, but that is as nonsensical as going to your nearest mo leader and telling him you want to form a committee to attack all women who don’t utilize mixed swimming pools. that scenerio and the one you described are as equally unlikely either to be suggested or to be practiced. actually you’re scenario is far more unlikely. what you describe at best sounds like the type of story peddled by anti-semitic rags of the nature of haaretz and ynet when they are seeking an avenue to attack chareidim. it can’t even be described as an exaggeration, as it doesn’t happen anywhere but in their hate-filled minds.

  • #1161858

    avhaben
    Participant

    Everyone should follow their Daas Torah. If their rabbonim permit the wives to drive, then it is okay for them to drive. If their rabbonim do not permit the women to drive, then they should not drive.

    Everyone ought to respect each other’s rabbonim. Live and let live.

  • #1161859

    MorahRach
    Member

    I don’t want this to come out the wrong way but I want to make my point. Do I need my husbands Rabbis permission to wash my face in the morning? Or to put milk on my Cheerios? Why does every thing in life need to be dictated to us by the Rabbis? What is this world coming to? Israel is on the verge of distraction by Irans nuclear program, America’s morals are swiftly sinking lower and lower almost into oblivion, we are in the verge of a financial crisis, so many other things are going on, but here you are worried about whether or not women are ” allowed” to drive? Is it untsnius to cough in public, lest a man may turn his hea in response to the sound. I feel like we are slowly but surely aligning ourselves with the Saudis and I’m embarrassed to read posts like this one above.

  • #1161860

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    In Williamsburg the traffic moves because women arn’t driving.

  • #1161861

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Everyone ought to ne respect each other’s rabbonim. Live and let live.

    That’s a preeeeeeeeeeeeetty different tune than the one you usually sing…

  • #1161862

    MorahRach: You most certainly do need your Rabbi’s input if your public actions are in accordance with what is expected of a Bas Yisroel.

  • #1161863

    iced
    Member

    I know that Chasidishe women everywhere and Chareidi (including Litvish) women in Eretz Yisroel do not drive. But even though that is the rule among all the major groups, are there exceptions? Are there a few Chasidisus or Chareidishe kehillos that do permit some or all of their women to drive?

    Also, is there a tznius or other prohibition for a woman to sit in the front passenger seat of a car being driven by a non-relative male? What if she is married (to someone else)?

  • #1161865

    2scents
    Participant

    Iced,

    I don’t if its assur or not, however in some circles it’s deemed inappropriate.

  • #1161866

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Iced, both things, non-males driving and sitting in the front, are pirtzos of tznius whether your Chassidishe or not.

  • #1161867

    i think it shouldn’t be allowed at all, I mean how many women do you know that actually can drive?

    and if we ban them, we can say for sure that men are the better and safer drivers

  • #1161868

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Iced, both things, non-males driving and sitting in the front, are pirtzos of tznius whether your Chassidishe or not.

    So I guess its Prizus for women to drive, but not Prizus for them to take the bus or Subway

  • #1161870

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Iced, both things, non-males driving and sitting in the front, are pirtzos of tznius whether your Chassidishe or not.

    It’s not tznua for a woman to sit in the front ever? Even if her husband is driving? Based on what? Where did you come up with this?

  • #1161872

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    takah, I base it on the first rule of tznius: don’t show yourself off in public.

  • #1161873

    Health
    Participant

    Loyal Jew -“Iced, both things, non-males driving and sitting in the front, are pirtzos of tznius whether your Chassidishe or not.”

    I know some Litvishe Farfrumta guys and it’s not just a few – some even Chashuv that don’t drive, but have their wives drive for them. Don’t ask me why they hold like this, but it has to do with their Torah outlook/Tzinus Hashkafa.

  • #1161874

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The wife of the R’Y of Lakewood drives, I saw it with my own two eyes and he went into the passenger side

  • #1161875

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The wife of the R’Y of Lakewood drives, I saw it with my own two eyes and he went into the passenger side

    I guess, according to Loyal Jew (or whatever he’s calling himself these days), the R”Y of Lakewood isn’t familiar with the proper comportment of a Jewish woman vis-a-vis tznius. 🙂

    The Wolf

  • #1161876

    miritchka
    Member

    (rolling eyes) well if lakewood is doing it, it must be ok…(another eye-roll for good measure)

  • #1161877

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Loyal Jew:

    takah, I base it on the first rule of tznius: don’t show yourself off in public.

    When you can quote a real source, not something you made up, then we’ll talk.

    Driving is hardly “showing yourself off in public.” Do you hold that women should never leave the home? Should they never go to shule? How should a woman work to support her husband in kollel if she can’t drive – should her husband miss learning time so he can drive her around? Should she waste tuition money on taxis?

  • #1161878

    Health
    Participant

    zahavasdad -“The wife of the R’Y of Lakewood drives, I saw it with my own two eyes and he went into the passenger side”

    Yes, those 4 are some of the ones I was talking about, but it’s beyond me what’s wrong if a man drives. I know a Chashuv RY who drives himself.

  • #1161879

    Health
    Participant

    Wolf -“I guess, according to Loyal Jew (or whatever he’s calling himself these days), the R”Y of Lakewood isn’t familiar with the proper comportment of a Jewish woman vis-a-vis tznius.”

    How do you know what he (LJ) holds? Maybe he holds Elu V’elu?

    As far as I’m concerned, whether a man or a woman is allowed to drive is not Halacha. This is called a Chumra. If you want to have Chumros -this is fine, just Don’t push them on others!

  • #1161880

    L. Normanson
    Member

    Rav Wosner says mentions in a psak that Driving is like “????? ?????” which is asur.

    As we find by Rivka emainu that she was a tzanua when traveling with Eliezer…

    Although there might be nothing unmodest about driving a car, a vehicle is definitely a man’s domain. (the same way a moped, scooter, bike, etc. is)

    Bottom line, tzniyus is required at all times and even when riding a car as a passenger (getting in and out…)

    It boils down to Kol kevuda bas melech penimah!

    There’s a time and place for everything!

  • #1161881

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont know why the Rebbetzin drove that day, It was from a Simcha and it could simply be that after the simcha she drove the car and dropped off the Rav at the Yeshiva along with his sons (Who were also in the car in the back seat) and then she was going to take the car home

  • #1161882

    benignuman
    Participant

    I am confused at the issue here. There is no halachic reason women should not drive.

  • #1161883

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    How do you know what he (LJ) holds? Maybe he holds Elu V’elu?

    I don’t think so. His statement sounded pretty absolute to me.

    Nonetheless, if I’m wrong and he doesn’t hold that it’s an absolute violation of tznius for a woman to drive or sit in front, I’ll be more than happy to retract.

    The Wolf

  • #1161884

    shmoel
    Member

    Rambam rules, and Shulchan Aruch paskens as such l’halacha, that a woman shouldn’t go outside much. He rules that she should be allowed to go out a couple times a month to visit her parents or such.

    Now I know we are more meikel these days (due to yeridos hadoros). But the concept is certainly halachicly applicable.

  • #1161885

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    What a fun trip down (crazy) memory lane.

    I drive to work before dawn, so its hard to see me. Totally tzanua.

  • #1161886

    takahmamash
    Participant

    But the concept is certainly halachicly applicable.

    Fine – go tell all the kollel wives they’re only allowed outside a couple times a month. How long until the entire system collapses because women can’t support their learning husbands?

  • #1161887

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    takah, the system wouldn’t collapse if the inlaws support the learning husband as required. That would solve the driving problem, the going to college problem, etc. But no, that would get in the way of “retirement,” vacations, and all the rest.

  • #1161888

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I love how some seem to know the Halacha better than Rav Yisroel Neuman , I am sure he knows S”A also and his wife drives

  • #1161889

    shmoel
    Member

    That’s why I said yeridos hadoros created a shas hadchak where it is unrealistic today to expect us to follow the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch to the tee on this issue, so the Rabbonim gave a heter for that. Nevertheless we must recognize and be cognizant of what the Shulchan Aruch paskens and even if we cannot follow it precisely we should strive to come as close as possible to what the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam pasken.

  • #1161890

    Joseph
    Member

    <bump>

  • #1161891

    Sparkly
    Member

    It is 100% okay for girls to drive. Why its better to get a ride by a guy and talk to him instead?

  • #1161892

    Joseph
    Participant

    She could take public transportation.

  • #1161893

    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – and meet a guy on the public transportation? i dont think so.

  • #1161894

    Gamanit
    Participant
  • #1161895

    Joseph
    Participant

    How did your bubbes manage in Warsaw, Vilna, Budapest, Vienna, Frankfurt, Lemberg, Munkatch, Berditchiv, etc.?

  • #1161896

    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph-

    How did your bubbes (and zeides) manage without

    Electricity

    Refrigerators

    Freezers

    Penicillin

    just to name a few.

    Unless you’re willing to give those up, (along with any other modern convenience of the last 150 years) your comparison is dishonest.

    On the other hand if you truly believe that we should live as our ancestors did without any modern conveniences,(like the internet) then i guess we wont be seeing you around these parts anymore.

    Dont let the door hit you on the way out.

  • #1161897

    Joseph
    Participant

    adocs, your Zeidas drove horse and buggies. Your Bubbes, somehow, managed without driving a horse and buggy.

  • #1161898

    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – please stop being anti feminism in a not kosher way.

  • #1161899

    Gamanit
    Participant

    Joseph- my zeides did not drive horses and buggies. What, you think they were wagon drivers? They either had a wagon driver drive them, or walked. They also used public transit. None of them owned a horse. I did have great-great-grandparents that had a Ford Model-T. I do not know whether anyone other than the car owner was ever allowed to drive it, male or female.

  • #1161900

    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – times have changed. now girls drive.

  • #1161901

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Our bubbes and zaidas lived in a world which didn’t require traveling more than a few blocks every day. We do.

  • #1161902

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gamanit, I think it’s very safe to assume that of your many zeidas, a number of them drove a horse and buggy at least on occasion. While the bubbes did not.

  • #1161903

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY, when travel was necessary, however frequent or infrequent it may have been, why was it always the zeida that drove it, and not the bubbe (when it wasn’t a third-party)?

    And if the bubbe did need to travel when the zeida wasn’t available, why wouldn’t she mount the horse and ride off on her own?

  • #1161904

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    In most famlies I know, when they’re both in the car, the husband drives.

    Anyhow, you know better than to bring horseback riding as an example.

  • #1161905

    Joseph
    Participant

    Even if she were sitting in the buggy and not on the horse. Can you imagine your bubbes mounting the horse and buggy, taking a seat on the buggy, and whipping the horse into action to ride over to the next town to visit her parents while the zeida was working?

  • #1161906

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    My bubbes’ bubbes didn’t do that, but they did wear tzitzit. My zeidas as far as I know didn’t ride horses and motorcycles.

  • #1161907

    miamilawyer
    Member

    Lol. First off, as I said previously in a poor attempt at humor, if she cannot drive, she should walk to the polls.

    In all seriousness, if a woman cannot be picked up, cannot drive, cannot (without R’ Moshe’s heter) be touched on public transportation, how can she leave the home?

    Which perhaps is the point. But that is not really a halachic issue unless you take the chatam soffer to places he never meant to go.

    From a website quoting R’ Sperber:

  • #1161908

    Joseph
    Participant

    miamilawyer, the Gemora, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch say that a wife shouldn’t leave the home too much. (Rambam actually quantifies it as once or twice a month.)

  • #1161909

    Sparkly
    Member

    daas yochid – both my parents switch off and ill probably do the same.

    Joseph – why is that?

  • #1161910

    miamilawyer
    Member

    @joseph. Ok, so say that. That has largely been my point. There are multiple threads essentially about the same thing. Should women leave the home? These are not really halachic issues unless you agree that women should not leave the home, in which case the answer to all the questions is the same.

    And also, that system does not make sense in a kollel system where the wife needs to earn the money. Rambam was a doctor, but yes, he had a traditional view.

    Still, while we are on the topic, (I am being careful as this is a PG site) unlike some, Rambam was very liberal FOR HIS TIME on certain issues relating to women.

    They had a certain tafkid because of the garden of eden. That was his view. But who knows what his view would have been had he lived today, because for his time, while he had a very conservative view of their role, he insisted that men not take advantage of that role.

  • #1161911

    Gamanit
    Participant

    Joseph- once you’re imagining you can let your imagination go wherever you want it to. As I said my family did not own horses. Generally speaking, in the countryside horse driven carts were driven by both men and women while in the city only men drove. This was mostly due to the fact that in any horse driven vehicle the driver sits on the outside of the vehicle thus in the public eye and getting muddy and filthy from the horses dung. The driver was also typically responsible for the general care of the horse. In the country any farmers wife would be muddy and taking care of animals either way. Any “better” woman wouldn’t subject herself to that, nor would her husband want her to. I think we both know that none of these points are applicable in a car. A driver is just as noticeable as a passenger and stays spic and span.

  • #1161912

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gamanit, You might be describing the Christian folk, but even if that you aren’t accurate. Among our bubbes you can be sure the reason they didn’t ride horses had nothing to do with what you’re talking about, but rather because of the aforementioned Rambam and SA and other aspects of tznius our holy ancestors were stringent about. And you can be sure they didn’t go gallivanting as drivers on horse and buggies. Even in the “countryside”.

  • #1161913

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, I’m curious as to where you got your information as to what our blog ancestors did or didn’t do.

  • #1161914

    Joseph
    Participant

    From the seforim hakedoshim.

  • #1161915

    Gamanit
    Participant

    Joseph- as lesschumras said I really don’t know where you’re getting your info from. Methinks it’s just off the top of your head. Either way, you did not address at all what the similarities are between horse and buggy and car.

  • #1161916

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Roi Tamir, in ???? ??????, quotes Rav Chaim Kanievsky forbidding women from driving as it is a prohibition of Klei Gever.

  • #1161917

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, keli gever and keli isha are according to local custom. Tell me,do you use a mirror to shave, trim your beard or check if your head tefilin is positioned properly (Rav Chaim Brisker used a mirror for this and when told that the Divrei Chaim says that it is a shetut he replied that he would rather be a shoteh with tefillin than a Chassid without tefillin)?

  • #1161918

    Sam2
    Member

    Joseph: With all due respect to the Gadol HaDor, if that’s true, all it means is that R’ Chaim hasn’t stepped outside of Bnei Brak. Women drive. It’s obvious to anyone with eyes that women drive. It’s not Begged Ish.

  • #1161919

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam, women wear pants nowadays also. Would you also argue that pants are therefore no longer begged ish and frum women should wear pants?

  • #1161920

    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – women driving is so different than them wearing pants. pants is pritzus its clear cut not what a girl should be wearing. driving is not pritzus its very okay for a girl to drive. its an activity. how will i get to college if i dont drive? have my boy friend come get me since his in my school? i dont think so.

  • #1161921

    YesOrNo
    Participant

    Bottom line… Whoever is driving should drive safely without distractions.

  • #1161922

    Gamanit
    Participant

    Joseph- pants are not begged ish anymore. The reason frum women shouldn’t wear pants is because it’s not tznius. If a man would buy pants from the women’s dept. that would be begged isha, would it not? Either way if anything a car is klei isha being as there are more women that are licensed to drive then men (probably due to the larger percentage of men getting their licenses suspended due to reckless driving). You still did provide any logical reason why driving is less “tznius” than sitting in front passenger seat. I know you tend to run away from saying you’re wrong but I think you’ve got nothing here.

  • #1161923

    Joseph
    Participant

    What’s the difference in regards to tznius between women wearing pants (from the women’s apparel section) and women driving?

    Anyways, argue with Rav Chaim Kanievsky and Rav Shmuel Wosner, not me.

  • #1161924

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Women in LAKEWOOD Drive and I dont mean the Modern ones, I mean the wives of the Rosh Yeshivas and Kollel Averchim.

    I doubt they would disobey Rav kanivesky

  • #1161925

    Joseph
    Participant

    Most yeshivish Rosh Yeshiva’s rebbetzins don’t drive.

  • #1161926

    What’s the difference? The difference is that there is nothing inherently immodest about driving. If you believe that there is, please explain specifically what that would be, because I have absolutely no idea.

  • #1161927

    benignuman
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    They wouldn’t be disobeying Rav Kanievsky. They would just be following their own rabbonim. That being said, I am skeptical that Rav Kanievsky would hold that women could halachically not drive nowadays. And if he does hold that, he is certainly a daas yochid on the matter.

  • #1161928

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    Pants fit around the legs. Cars do not.

  • #1161929

    miamilawyer
    Member

    Joseph: I love your shtick, I do, but that comment about arguing with X rabbi or Y rabbi is silly. There are many who obviously permit women driving. You should argue with them. :-).

  • #1161931

    Joseph
    Participant

    You don’t see Rebbetzins Kotler, Olshin, Schustal, Neuman, Salamon or Wachtfogel cruising around Lakewood.

  • #1161932

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Actually Joseph I HAVE seen Rebbetzen Neuman drive.

    I saw Rav neuman get into the passenger seat and she got into the driver seat and drove him away

    I have also seen one of their daughters drive as well

  • #1161933

    etzhar
    Participant

    If Rav Kanievsky paskens that women shold not drive it may be because of his living in Bnei Beraq where buses and taxis pass by regularly. In Lakewood and other large Jewish areas this is not available.

  • #1161934

    Joseph
    Participant

    The first question should be why are the women going out in the first place. As mentioned earlier, the Gemora, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch say they should not go out much. If it is important, it may be understandable. But to stam shpatzir outside for a leisurely ride is not understandable if it is avoidable.

  • #1161935

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    Female Reform rabbis drive. Are those the women our wives and daughters should emulate?

  • #1161936

    Joseph, why is it that you refer to women drivers as “gallivanting”, “cruising around”, and going on “leisurely rides”? Would you ever characterize male drivers in this way? As far as I know, driving is not a common hobby or pleasure activity for anyone, male or female (we’re talking about driving normal cars, not race cars, which is obviously a different category altogether).

    Also, how do you define “important”? Would you oppose a woman getting in her car to a friend’s house for a social visit, for instance?

  • #1161937

    etzhar
    Participant

    Joseph I am surprised at your comment. The young women today especially in places like Lakewood are largely responsible for the parnossoh, the shopping and car pool so that their husbands should sit and learn. That is fine but if that means they need to drive…..! They dont even have time for a shpatzir. In the time of the gemorroh etc the men were responsible for Parnossoh as well as the learning.

  • #1161938

    Sam2
    Member

    Joseph: Your comparison of driving to pants is wrong. You said R’ Chaim said it’s a Begged Ish issue, not a Tznius issue. It’s clearly not Begged Ish. Wearing pants probably isn’t either. That doesn’t make it Muttar. It’s not permitted for women to wear pants. But they’re not violating Begged Ish when they do it.

  • #1161939

    Joseph
    Participant

    jf02, sure I’d characterize male drivers as gallivanting when applicable. I didn’t characterize all female driving like that, I specifically referred to the times it’s applicable. Though the issue mentioned from the Shulchan Aruch is applicable to females and makes their public gallivanting more problematic than that of males.

    As far as important, in the context of the aforementioned Shulchan Aruch, it would mean any unavoidable travel.

    etzhar, See above regarding important. Limud Torah is important. And if it requires the wife to go outside in public as a result, it almost surely would qualify for the limited times the Halacha (above mentioned S”A) permits a wife to go out.

  • #1161940

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam, you didn’t answer the question. Namely, how is a frum woman wearing pants designed for women more of a tznius problem than a woman driving?

    Also note that if a woman drives, and has a car at her disposal, she will naturally be “out and about” traveling more frequently than if her travel were limited to traveling with her husband or public/paid transportation. And you then run into more instances of unnecessary travel that the Shulchan Aruch says not to do.

  • #1161941

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Joseph is such a Tzadick, He is more frum than Rav Neuman. He even knows Shulchan Aruch better than he does

  • #1161942

    Sparkly
    Member

    joseph – wearing pants is an aveirah because of a lack of tznius. driving is 100% muttar. your a anti feminist and most people here arent so give up. There are plenty of rabbi wives who drive.

  • #1161943

    As far as important, in the context of the aforementioned Shulchan Aruch, it would mean any unavoidable travel.

    Says you. As you’ve already shown yourself to be a Chassid Shote, I would say that others, including Chazal, would say differently.

  • #1161944

    Joseph
    Participant

    You say not? That’s your opinion as an open orthodox adherent, but the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam says what was stated. Rambam gives an example of what is permitted travel by saying she should be permitted to visit her parents once a month.

  • #1161945

    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – please bring up the pasuk.

  • #1161946

    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph-

    Who says that visiting her parents once a month is a maximum? Perhaps its directed to the husband as a minimum to make sure he doesnt prevent it entirely?

  • #1161947

    adocs
    Participant

    I find it interesting that after Joseph makes the statement “You don’t see Rebbetzins Kotler, Olshin, Schustal, Neuman, Salamon or Wachtfogel cruising around Lakewood.”

    and to which zahavasdad responds with an opposing fact that directly contradicts his statement

    “Actually Joseph I HAVE seen Rebbetzen Neuman drive. I saw Rav neuman get into the passenger seat and she got into the driver seat and drove him away”

    that Joseph doesnt address the obvious contradiction between his assertion and ZDs eyewitness account.

  • #1161948

    Joseph
    Participant

    ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???????. ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????. ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ????????? ??? ?????? ?? ??. ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????. ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???????. ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????. ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????:

  • #1161949

    charliehall
    Member

    “Rambam rules, and Shulchan Aruch paskens as such l’halacha, that a woman shouldn’t go outside muc”

    They also both rule that a woman can read Megillat Esther for a man. Should I have my wife read it for me next Purim — at home?

  • #1161950

    charliehall
    Member

    “?? ????? ?? ??? ?????! And thats a Gemara! “

    ROTF!!! It isn’t a Gemara it is a pasuk in Tehillim. And it is clearly referring to a non-Jewish woman.

  • #1161951

    Joe – So you’re a Chasid Shote, and I’m Open Orthodox. I’ll take the OO side any day over the Chasid Shote side, and twice on Yom Tov 🙂

  • #1161952

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    According to Josephs Hashkafa, Since Rebbitzen Neuman drives, She is OO as well

  • #1161953

    “jf02, sure I’d characterize male drivers as gallivanting when applicable. I didn’t characterize all female driving like that, I specifically referred to the times it’s applicable.”

    Really? Because I’m pretty sure that this comment was just talking about driving in general, since you didn’t mention that it was in the context of frivolous or “unnecessary” travel.

    “You don’t see Rebbetzins Kotler, Olshin, Schustal, Neuman, Salamon or Wachtfogel cruising around Lakewood.”

  • #1161954

    Joseph
    Participant

    What’s that have to do with galavanting? Nothing I said should have led you to confuse two unrelated comments.

  • #1161955

    Gamanit
    Participant

    Joseph- you keep saying a woman shouldn’t be leaving the house more than twice a month. You fail to provide a single example of one gadol whose wife did so. Have you heard of any rebbitzen that only left the house once a month? Most go to shul every shabbos, so that’s obviously not the case.

  • #1161957

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gamanit, due to the many sins of our generation we aren’t able to fully maintain the righteous standards our holy zeidas and bubbes held and lived by their entire lives, as enumerated and cited in the Gemora, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch and numerous other poskim and seforim hakedoshim. So therefore you would suggest that we throw out the baby with the bathwater?

    It’s true that today that, to our sorrow, women can’t stay indoors as much as is appropriate and halachicly expected. Would you therefore c’v suggest that women be out of the home as frequently and as much as they desire? In contravention to everything Chazal and the poskim implore of us? At least we should aim that they stay inside, and not outside in public, as much as is attainable in our weak generation.

  • #1161958

    Joseph, did you read my earlier comment? The question was why you refer to women drivers specifically as “gallivanting”, “cruising around”, and “going on leisurely rides”, whereas by men driving is just driving.

    So yes, “cruising around” and “gallivanting” are not unrelated.

    Waiting for your response.

    P.S. Yes, I WOULD “suggest that women be out of the home as frequently and as much as they desire.” I have never had to ask permission from my husband or my rav to leave my house (for any reason or no reason at all), or to justify to them why I “have to” leave the house. Never before, and I don’t intend to start now. There is absolutely nothing inappropriate or problematic about women stam leaving the house (obviously if they’re going to inappropriate places, that’s a different story). I am sure you’re aware that Chazal say a LOT of things that we don’t actually pasken by anymore.

  • #1161959

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    jfem – don’t bother. This is a common “tactic” of Joseph and one or two other posters. They add adjectives that totally shift the meaning of the argument/point and then try to back you into a wall with it. When you force the issue it gets ignored, or they disappear. But meanwhile it is very frustrating. I noticed the same thing when he added those words but was too weary to bother.

    It seems you missed one bait but found another 🙂

  • #1161960

    Joseph
    Participant

    It isn’t just Chazal. And it isn’t just Rambam. It is paskened as halacha l’maaisa by the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch. And virtually all the poskim over the centuries who discuss it. It isn’t even controversial.

    At least not before Susan B. Anthony’s times.

    If you simply want to disregard halacha that you disagree with and don’t like in favor of a post-feminism view, be intellectually honest and say that outright.

    The idea to “suggest that women be out of the home as frequently and as much as they desire” is clearly and unambiguously in contravention of everything in the Torah from Sarah Imainu through everything Chazal clearly implore of us in the Gemora through what the poskim pasken l’halacha, including the Shulchan Aruch.

  • #1161961

    It’s not halacha. I don’t know a single rav who actually paskens that way.

    This isn’t the only case of a halacha showing up in the Shulchan Aruch that we don’t pasken by anymore. Don’t pretend it’s such a huge chiddush.

    I see that you didn’t answer my other question.

    Syag Lchochma, yep…sigh…

  • #1161962

    Joseph
    Participant

    It is certainly halacha. The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch are citing and paskening a Chazal l’halacha.

    If you claim that this is a “Shulchan Aruch that we don’t pasken by anymore” (wow!) you’re going to have to cite gedolei poskim who say such a strong (and strange) thing rather than just your own boich svara. Override a halacha in Shulchan Aruch? It is theoretically possible in a small number of cases, but one needs poskim (of yore) with very big shoes to even contemplate such a possibility, put their halachic reasoning against SA in writing, and have it accepted by the gedolei poskim. On this issue no one of note ever even postulated against the SA. It’s been the normative Jewish practice from Sara Imainu through Chazal through SA and on.

    The other question was a silly semantical back and forth that is neither important nor worth wasting keystrokes over.

  • #1161963

    miamilawyer
    Member

    @joseph

    As I said in the car rides post (these threads should all be consolidated since they are all about the same thing), Chazal also are clear that (with very few exceptions–the quotes are in the car ride post), that all men should learn a trade, and that torah without work leads to bitul torah too.

    I can only assume Charedim in kollel have sources that interpret around this, just as non-charedim interpret around some of what you cite. Or, the charedim argue what you do about the 50s, that was bedieved, but now there are ways to learn in kollel without working.

    Again, R’ Sperber makes a good point in his speech which is online that a good argument can be made that charedim are to the right of where most of chazal was.

    Frankly, my own personal view (for whatever its worth, which probably is not much) is that since no one can truly recreate the times of the Rambam, much less Chazal, every group has done their best to create the closest facsimile within their own viewpoints.

  • #1161964

    It’s not “normative Jewish practice” today. No woman I know, including in Chareidi circles, has to justify why and when and how often they leave their houses. Neither do they restrict their goings and comings to “necessary” things; social visits are certainly not “necessary” but they are very very common. And the frummest of frum women attend Bar Mitzvahs and l’chayims that they certainly aren’t required to attend. If it’s a family simcha, that’s different, but I’m talking about a simcha where you won’t lose any friends by not going. And yet the most chashuve rebbetzins don’t shy away. Why?

    I will repeat my earlier question in a way that will perhaps help you to better understand. Why is it that when women get into their cars to go somewhere, you characterize them with frivolous verbiage such as “gallivanting” and “cruising around”? Why don’t you characterize the men this way? For instance, when you said that our bubbes wouldn’t have been caught dead gallivanting around on a horse and buggy, why didn’t you say that it was just fine for the zaides to “gallivant” but not the bubbes? Somehow these snide characterizations only apply to the women, even though the actual activity itself (driving) is identical. I want to know why.

  • #1161965

    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – can i please have a ride (being sarcastic)? i mean i cant drive because im a girl.

  • #1161966

    Joseph
    Participant

    jf02, as late as the 1950s and part of the ’60s in America, Shatnes was a neglected Torah obligation that the vast majority of frum Americans were blissfully unaware of and, unfortunately, violated daily. Until an all-Jewish hero from Vienna arrived on these shores, namely Mr. Joseph Rosenberger, who opened Shatnes Labs and preached the obligation to avoid wearing Shatnes. Did the pre-Rosenberger era where it was normative to wear Shatnes define the halacha for Shatnes or somehow make it permissible to wear Shatnes? Most certainly not.

    Same here. A lot or a majority or even a vast majority of the hamon hoam violating halachic precepts does not redefine halacha or make the forbidden to be permitted.

    I hope to address your gallivanting concern when I have the opportunity to use a keyboard.

  • #1161967

    adocs
    Participant

    Same here? Same here?!?

    Are you actually comparing an outright torah obligation/prohibition (shatnez) to the “prohibition” of women going out more than twice a month?

    And you expect to be taken seriously?

    Quite possibly you are being motzi la’az on every rebbitzin and rosh yeshiva that doesn’t live by those “righteous standards” that “we aren’t able to fully maintain”

    If something is an outright issur, don’t tell me that our Rosh yeshivas would allow their wives to drive (or leave the house!) because we’re “weak”.

    You never addressed ZD account of rebbitzin Neuman driving. With her husband right there.

    Is he

    (a) ignorant of the S’A? (motzi la’az)

    (b) weak (motzi la’az)

    (c) openly flouting Halacha (motzi la’az)

    (d) OO (motzi la’az)

    That is one of the most dishonest comparisons I’ve seen here.

    Only the most ignorant would fall for it.

    Or propose it.

  • #1161968

    Joseph
    Participant

    Don’t put words in my mouth. And don’t expect me to answer for an anonymous claim of a claimed event. And don’t argue against SA with bubbe maaisas. Using your so-called arguments, you’re motzi la’az on the Rambam and Mechaber. Why are you putting the Rambam’s holy psak in scare quotation marks? Do you consider the Rambam and Mechaber to be extremists?

  • #1161969

    Joseph
    Participant

    Here is the translation for the post on the previous page, relevant to the present discussion:

    In a place where it is customary for a woman not to go out to the market place wearing merely a cap on her head, but also a veil that covers her entire body like a cloak, her husband must provide at least the least expensive type of veil for her. If he is wealthy, [he must provide her with a veil whose quality] is commensurate with his wealth.

    [He must give her this veil] so that she can visit her father’s home, a house of mourning or a wedding celebration. For every woman should be given the opportunity to visit her father and to go to a house of mourning or a wedding celebration as an expression of kindness to her friends and relatives, for [this will have a reciprocal effect], and they will return the visits. For a woman [at home] is not confined in a jail, from which she cannot come and go.

    Nevertheless, it is uncouth for a woman always to leave home – this time to go out and another time to go on the street. Indeed, a husband should prevent a wife from doing this and not allow her to go out more than once or twice a month, as is necessary. For there is nothing more attractive for a woman than to sit in the corner of her home, as [implied by Tehilim 45:14]: “All the glory of the king’s daughter is within.”

  • #1161970

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, “much” obviously varies according to time, place and community. See the Levush in the likutim that even in his time women were involved in business dealings with men. Apparently Beruria also went out and about from time to time (Eruvin 53b).

  • #1161971

    Sam2
    Member

    Joseph: You intentionally misread that Rambam and Shulchan Aruch. As a base, it’s Muttar to leave for the Shuk, Simchas, visiting relatives, and doing Chessed as often as she likes, as is explicit. On top of that, it is a “Gnai” for her to “galavant” more than once or twice a month.

    And calling something that is a “Gnai”, which is a Lashon of an Eitzah Tovah or a Middas Chassidus at absolute best, an actual Issur is a D’Oraisa violation of Ba’al Tosif and is quite honestly probably a violation of Megaleh Panim BaTorah Shelo KeHalachah because you know that you’re misrepresenting the Halachah. Is inventing Chumros on the internet really worth losing your Olam Haba over?

  • #1161972

    Avi K
    Participant

    Miriam the Women’s Hair Stylist (a.k.a Mary Magdalene) went OTD because her husband was overly strict about this (Gittin 90a).

  • #1161973

    Abba_S
    Participant

    There are those who hold that a women place is in her home and therefor they shouldn’t drive. It was only in the 1920s that Bais Yakovs , the idea of Jewish female education, was born. Before that it was thought that anyone that taught their daughters Torah was a Heretic.

    Similarly, in the last Mishna in Kiddushan 82A it says that a woman can’t teach yet all yeshivas have female teachers in the early grades.

    Just as the Jewish people (Orthodox) couldn’t survive without female Jewish Education, so too they can’t survive without both parents working outside the house.

    The question is , ” is driving a luxury or a necessity?” If you hold it’s a luxury then women shouldn’t drive but if you hold it’s a necessity then women must drive and just as a father is obligated to teach his son to swim so too must he teach his daughter to drive. Otherwise the husband will have to do all the shopping and cut into his learning time.

    In an ideal society where food and clothing came down from heaven and as soon as you went to the bus stop or train station mass transit was there then perhaps woman shouldn’t drive.

  • #1161974

    Joseph: You intentionally misread that Rambam and Shulchan Aruch.

    Don’t feed the Troll (more than once) 😉

  • #1161975

    adocs
    Participant

    @joseph

    “Don’t put words in my mouth.”

    What have I claimed you said (or implied) that you actually didn’t say (or imply)?

    “And don’t expect me to answer for an anonymous claim of a claimed event.”

    You claim to know the exact behaviors of our ancestors traveling habits. And you bring that as ‘proof’ that our behavior is therefore lacking. Were you there? Did you actually see how our bubbes and zaides travelled? Or are you using circular reasoning to assume ‘well, that’s what they must have done, so therefore they did it.’ While in this specific case (ZD and rebitzin Neuman) you technically can call it an anonymous claim, by that logic, anyone’s claim here that they have witnessed something is subject to the same dismissal. And I would venture to say that most people here have seen rebitizins of choshuve rabbonim driving. Rabbonim who would not allow something that’s an outright issur. You can dismiss that if you like, but when something is collectively known and witnessed by the multitudes, it’s pretty lame to dismiss it as anonymous just because you don’t know the name of the person who’s saying it.

    “And don’t argue against SA with bubbe maaisas.”

    What bubbe maises? Are you denying the obvious that rebitizins of choshuve rabbonim drive with their husbands approval? see previous paragraph

    “Using your so-called arguments, you’re motzi la’az on the Rambam and Mechaber.”

    How so? At what point did I ever say anything negative about their words or behavior? Just because things are different nowadays, does not mean that anybody holds they were wrong at that time. And don’t try to say that Halacha is immutable and completely unchanging. While the underpinnings of halacha do not change, their application can. And that can work both ways – l’kula and l’chumra

    “Why are you putting the Rambam’s holy psak in scare quotation marks?”

    I only put your words from previous post in quotes.

    “Do you consider the Rambam and Mechaber to be extremists?”

    Again, when did I ever say that? Now, who’s putting words in whos mouth?

  • #1161976

    We are not living in 1950s America where people are simply uneducated and don’t know any better.

    Baruch Hashem, America has become a place of Torah scholarship and we have countless very learned rabbis, who certainly are not ignorant of the Rambam you keep quoting. And yet they allow their wives to come and go as they please, and they do not instruct their talmidim to limit their wives’ and daughters’ comings and goings to “necessary” errands.

    You’re comparing apples and oranges.

    Find me at least one modern-day rav who says it’s a halacha for women to stay home as much as possible (and I don’t mean working vs stay at home mothering, I mean physically in the house vs out of the house regardless of her occupation). I bet you can’t.

  • #1161977

    Joseph
    Participant

    I can pretty much assure you that over 90% of frum Americans today do not know this Rambam and Shulchan Aruch. 2010s, not just 1950s.

    And the principal that women should avoid unnecessary public exposure and being on the streets unnecessarily can be found in many sh”ut seforim of fairly recent vintage.

  • #1161978

    I learned it as a teenager and I’m far from a big talmid chochom…anyway, we’re not just talking about everyday Americans here. If it was a real halacha, the rebbeim could get together and make a kol koreh. Why didn’t they?

    Principle, not principal, and you should clarify what you mean by “public exposure” and “being on the streets”, because that may have to do with the actual nature of the errand, not just stam being out of the house.

  • #1161979

    Joseph
    Participant

    Like Shatnes. It took a Mr. Joseph Rosenberger to fix the problem. Dare I say we need another Joseph today for this laxity? (This will be so worth the flak I’m about to get.)

  • #1161980

    adocs
    Participant

    There you go again with a dishonest comparison.

    Had you asked any frum rav in the ’50s about shatnez, they would have unequivocally answered that it’s assur, despite the laxity or ignorance of the general public.

    Please name a mainstream rav/rosh yeshiva who says that women should be staying home and not driving except as a b’di’eved

  • #1161981

    Joseph
    Participant

    adocs, have you ever asked a shaila from a posek or Rov whether the Halacha in the Shulchan Aruch we’re discussing, as well as the equivalent Rambam, are utterly meaningless and irrelevant in our modern day, with our era having replaced the anarchistic practices and rulings from the days of the Mechaber? No? I didn’t think so. So I’ll tell you what. Call a posek of note and ask him if a) the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam we’re discussing can be scratched out as irrelevant and to be ignored without any meaning for our times or b) the Shulchanch Aruch and Rambam remain relevant for us today and ought to guide our lives in some manner.

  • #1161982

    Sam2
    Member

    Joseph: Excellent job ignoring my post. Well done.

  • #1161983

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam, you’re regurgitating the same inaccurate point we’ve previously discussed. You’re stressing precisely the opposite of what the Rambam and Mechaber are stressing. And he doesn’t say it is an “Eitzah Tovah”, he explicitly paskens that the husband should prevent and not allow his wife to go out more frequently.

  • #1161984

    Joseph
    Participant
  • #1161985

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Joseph why not take a drive to Lakewood and ask Rav Neuman why his wife drives? After all she is disobeying the Shulchan Aruch

  • #1161986

    “adocs, have you ever asked a shaila from a posek or Rov whether the Halacha in the Shulchan Aruch we’re discussing, as well as the equivalent Rambam, are utterly meaningless and irrelevant in our modern day, with our era having replaced the anarchistic practices and rulings from the days of the Mechaber? No? I didn’t think so. So I’ll tell you what. Call a posek of note and ask him if a) the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam we’re discussing can be scratched out as irrelevant and to be ignored without any meaning for our times or b) the Shulchanch Aruch and Rambam remain relevant for us today and ought to guide our lives in some manner.”

    Um, that’s not how shailahs work. You don’t call a Rav and ask him “Do I have to follow this Rambam?” You call a Rav and ask him “Can women drive wherever and whenever they want to, assuming the errand is not inappropriate, or does there have to be a special reason for them going out because it’s only bedieved?” and the Rav will give his answer based on his knowledge of Shas and poskim. Either he will pasken based on that particular Rambam, or he won’t. But you don’t ask the shailah on the Rambam itself.

  • #1161987

    dovrosenbaum
    Member

    The rabbonim in New Square don’t allow women to drive. Also, some of the other chasidim don’t allow women to drive.

  • #1161988

    Sam2
    Member

    Joseph: First of all, your stress is explicitly against the Rambam where he says, “????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????”

    He says it’s a Gnai. He doesn’t say Assur. He doesn’t say it’s a D’Rabannan. He says it’s a Gnai. That implies it’s a Shevach to avoid. That means a Middas Chassidus or an Eitzah Tovah, not a Halchah.

    Similarly, when recommending the husband to limit his wife’s galavanting, he says “Yesh”. He doesn’t say Chayav. He doesn’t imply obligation at all. “Yesh” is a Lashon of Lechatchilah at best. He doesn’t even say “Tzarich”, which is a stronger Lashon of Lechatchilah (well, I’m not positive about the Rambam for that; it’s true for the Shulchan Aruch). “Yesh” implies that it’s a good idea, not that there is any obligation whatsoever.

  • #1161989

    Joseph
    Participant

    What did you make of the Rav Nissim Karelitz shlit”a and Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlit”a that I linked above from Hebrewbooks on this Rambam/SA?

  • #1161990

    Sam2
    Member

    Joseph: R’ Nissim Karelitz says that that Rambam and SH”A shows what society was like back then and he says it’s different now. How one Earth does that support you?

    R’ Moshe Shternbuch is also not quoting that Lema’aseh. He uses it to contrast the Rambam’s time to ours to emphasize a point. He did not in any way claim that it is in any way some form of Chiyuv nowdays.

    Next time, try to find sources that actually read and quote the Rambam the way you’re claiming they are.

  • #1161991

    benignuman
    Participant

    I might be missing something having not read all the previous pages. But even taking Joseph’s interpretation of the Rambam, what does that have to do with driving. Even if a woman only goes out once or twice a month, why can’t she drive?

    Driving is simply a more efficient mode of transportation.

  • #1161992

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Joseph is just having fun at other peoples expense.

  • #1161993

    Joseph
    Participant

    That point was addressed. By having a driver’s license and ready availability to a car in the driveway, the reality is the woman will more readily and more frequently be going for a spin around town even if it isn’t an appropriate reason for her to be shpatziring outside according to the Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, etc.

    Think of it like having a TV in the home. Sure National Geographic and PBS might have some kosher programming, but once you have access to everything, we all know the great risks.

  • #1161994

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    By having a driver’s license and ready availability to a car in the driveway, the reality is the woman will more readily and more frequently be going for a spin around town even if it isn’t an appropriate reason for her to be shpatziring outside

    The words in bold were NOT

    according to the Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, etc.

    Your misrepresentation of Torah is very harmful, upsetting, serious

  • #1161995

    Joseph
    Participant

    Shulchan Aruch and Rambam specify their are frequency limitations, and type of reasons for going out limitations. I’m simply relating the reality of what they pasken.

  • #1161996

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    There once was a real danger that women faced going outside.

  • #1161997

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I’m simply relating the reality of what they pasken.

    If you believed the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam were correct, you would respectfully leave your personal adjectives out of the “relating”

  • #1161998

    benignuman
    Participant

    But without a car, won’t she walk more places and be out for everyone to see even more than if she is safely ensconced in a car?

    I would think that walking, taking a bus, taking a subway, or taking a cab would all be less tzniyusdik.

  • #1161999

    I don’t know a single person, man or woman, who enjoys “going for a spin around town”. People use cars so that they can get places. Now if you’re going to claim that a woman should not go out “unnecessarily”, you might not approve of her paying a social visit to her sister, for instance. But the fact is that the car is just the vehicle that gets her to the sister’s house. The “frivolity” or whatever is the social visit itself, not the mode of transportation.

  • #1162000

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In Josephs Defense, there are plenty of people who like to go for a drive

    Ever hear of the term “Sunday Drive”

    They make plenty of vehicles that are fun to Drive (A 15 year old Mini-van with 50 dents is not fun to drive)

    They wouldnt make Mustangs ,Camaros , or Jeeps if people didnt want cars that are fun to drive

  • #1162001

    miamilawyer
    Member

    @zahavasdad

    For sure. All people do on South Beach sometimes is cruise in their cars and nothing else. That said, I think we can safely assume that is not why frum women are driving.

  • #1162002

    Sparkly
    Member

    i love driving:)

  • #1162003

    Sam2
    Member

    Joseph: Again, excellent job ignoring my post where I pointed out that you don’t know how to read the Teshuvos V’Hanhagos or R’ Nissim Karelitz.

  • #1162004

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam: I cited them because I found them relevant to the discussion. Nowhere did I otherwise comment on them other than to point them out.

    benignuman: But without a car, won’t she walk more places and be out for everyone to see even more than if she is safely ensconced in a car?

    I would think that walking, taking a bus, taking a subway, or taking a cab would all be less tzniyusdik.

    That’s a fair argument. And, indeed, a number of rabbonim permit women to drive. No one is disputing that. And, perhaps, they like you will argue that a woman is less exposed to the public and to the street when she’s ensconced in a vehicle than if she’s walking on the street or taking public transit.

    On the other hand, other rabbonim who pasken women are not permitted to drive might argue the ready access to driving gives her the ability, and inevitably in many cases the reality, of her being out of the home much more frequently than if she were limited to walking and public transit since a license and vehicle makes more places accessible (and thus more opportunities to be out) than otherwise.

  • #1162005

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, from your attitude we got Yushki (Gittin 90a and Iggeret Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai).

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