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Tagged: conforming with standards, Females, following community standards, lack of tznius, minhug hamokem, tznius, unsafe drivers, upholding tznius
- This topic has 304 replies, 88 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 6 months ago by ujm.
November 24, 2008 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1161735gavra_at_workParticipant
Yes! Please don’t offer a ride to strange men, even if they look frum!November 24, 2008 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1161736NobodyMember
Teenager, Don’t think that because these guys are dressed chassidish they are. Genuine Chassidim would not, ever, ever ask a young girl or any female for a ride, let alone comment on her driving. The chassishe guy who made that comment to you was possibly trying to flirt with you and was possibly waiting for your retort to start a conversation. I hope I am very, very wrong here. Before you all have a go at me, note I said possibly, twice and i also said I hoped I was wrong.
Don’t ever, ever drive a chassidishe guy somewhere alone in your car – this is not natural – are you mad or what?
You need to be more wary, less trusting (unfortunately) and be more on your guard to personal safety.
I am sad to be writing this but I am like an owl, old and wise!November 24, 2008 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1161737Feif UnParticipant
YW Editor, I think this thread should be closed. A woman whose husband doesn’t want her driving DEFINITELY wouldn’t want her talking to anonymous men on the internet.
Plus, everyone else is requesting that threads be closed and getting it, I’m feeling left out.November 24, 2008 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1161738
I get asked by chasidish men a lot to drive them places, you dont think thats untzniusdik with me being a 19 year old girl?
Forget tznius for the moment, unless you know these men, it’s downright unsafe.
The rule in my car is that I don’t pick up hitchhikers, under any circumstances, no matter how “frum” they look. If someone is broken down on the road, I’ll offer to call for help, or possibly help out in some other way, but I will not allow strangers in my car. It’s a simple matter of safety.
The WolfNovember 24, 2008 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1161739teenagerMember
I would never give men a ride, they ask I dont offer but I refuse. They are all ages from teenagers- 40’s or so, I dont really look at them to much.November 24, 2008 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1161740Mrs. BeautifulMember
I cant imagine that a man would ask a teenager for a ride. There is something very very wrong with that. In fact you really shouldnt accept hitchhikers altogether. Especially since u r only 19.November 24, 2008 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1161741dont have internetMember
i knoe what shes talking about–all these chassidish men on street corners of b.p. with there hands sticking out they try to stop u…but when u slow down and u give them a look they stop askingNovember 24, 2008 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1161742teenagerMember
I dont live in bp, and i dont mean the hitchikers with their hands sticking out, they are not asking me personally, they are just looking for anyone to give them a ride. I am talking about when men specificaly come over to me. And dont worry I know all about saftey, as I said before I would never give them a ride.November 24, 2008 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1161743TOHIGHSCHOOLGUYMember
we got off of the original topic … women not being allowed to drive is the most ridiculous question i have seen discussed here so far … as to whether or not they can drive … (lol, kidding)November 24, 2008 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1161744JosephParticipant
Wolf – What if you pass a Yid late stuck in Hicksville or highway (no mans land) and your cell is out?
DHI – Those guys have their hitching finger up for every car, long before they know who the driver is.November 25, 2008 3:02 am at 3:02 am #1161745BogenParticipant
A womans place is in the home. (This is per the Torah.)November 25, 2008 3:13 am at 3:13 am #1161746
Firstly about woman driving, I can understand as an extra chumra of tzinues that people may not do it, and I know woman personally who do not drive, and guess what they live and get around places. about chassidish men hitching rides, tonight in bp somone was walking around from car to car asking but when he got to mine and saw it was a girl he did not stop to ask. Also besides for giving rides to anyone that askes I go to public busses and give jewish people a ride home from there. U may think I am crazy but I feel if i want to do something good hashem will help.November 25, 2008 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1161747I can only tryMember
“U may think I am crazy but I feel if i want to do something good H-shem will help.”
A couple of years ago there were a two women in Williamsburg who were given rides by a chasidish-looking man who then attacked them.
In Eretz Yisroel, Arab terrorists sometimes get dressed as frum people – sometimes as chasidim – to lure victimes.
We have all heard of stories – possibly urban legends – about nochrim who travel in the catskills with a yarmulka because they know that free roadside assistance is available if they put it on.
I once had a couple of young frum boys, about 11 or 12, approach me while I was fueling at a gas station and ask for a ride. I gave them a quarter (I didn’t have a cell phone) and told them to call their parents and get their OK before I would do so, because 1) I wanted their parents to know that they approached a stranger for a ride and 2) I would not give them a ride without their parent’s haskama.
I implore you in the strongest possible terms NOT to give rides to people you don’t know.
Unless you know me…
-If you see me standing and waiting at a bus stop, please pass me by.
-If you see my children waiting at a city bus stop you do NOT have my permission to offer them a ride.
Chas v’sholom that with your good-hearted intentions you are taken advantage of by an evil individual in a way that can cause you and your family anguish for years to come.November 25, 2008 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #1161748illini07Member
Tell that to all the families where the father is learning in kollel all day who wouldn’t be able to EAT if the wife didn’t work.November 25, 2008 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1161749
Thank you I can only try – you know what I will go ask a rav tonight if I am plain stupid and I will let you know, I just remember those high school days waiting at the bus stop and as the cars drove by I would think why can they just not stop, so I try to help others, but I will find out.
ilini07- I think she was not talking about kollel families but the typical ones where the husband works and the wife as well just to bring in more money. Rabbi Wallerstein spoke I think it was tisha b’av and he said how our parents were raised in much better homes because their mothers were home for them but in our days the mothers are at work as well, which does effect the family. So mother working can be the ideal but for circumstances that it cannot be done like if the husband is learning in kollel or they need money it is understandable.November 25, 2008 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1161750
Wolf – What if you pass a Yid late stuck in Hicksville or highway (no mans land) and your cell is out?
For starters, I rarely leave the city, so it’s not too much of an issue for me.
In any event, if something like that were to occur, I would offer to physically go and get help. I still would not take a stranger in my car. Feel free to disparage me for it if you like.
The WolfNovember 25, 2008 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1161751gavra_at_workParticipant
Joseph: What if you pass a Yid late stuck in Hicksville or highway (no mans land) and your cell is out?
You have still not answered what your rav says about women driving!November 25, 2008 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1161752JosephParticipant
I don’t particularly recall discussing this issue, but I surely can inquire. Nevertheless, if I may be so bold as to predict the response, it would be along the lines Kol Hakovod to the various Rabbonim of the kehilos that have established this heilige takana in upholding tznius. (Not implying that other kehilos are obligated to follow suit.)
I do know that the Rebbetzin has never driven.November 25, 2008 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1161753intellegentMember
This is one subject that is really rediculous to argue about.
I personally have a drivers licence and plan on driving when I move back to the USA. My mother-in-law does not drive to this day and it really hinders her. She barely gets out. When my sisters-in-law (her daughters) were engaged, they would take her shopping instead of she taking them. She has to rely on her husband and children to get around which I think is a bit demeaning.
In any case, I can see why some people would not allow their wives, girls to drive. But I will still continue to drive. It is a matter of opinion and I don’t recall seeing signs up from anti-women-drivers against women driving so I don’t see what the point of arguing is! (My father personally does not allow us [girls and boys] to drive before we get engaged/married. But he is not against women driving. My mother drives.)
Just a cute vignette, my sister was driving in Williamsburg and a few little boys pointed at her car and called out, “Kick! Ah Mama Driv’d!” (“Look! A mother driving!)November 25, 2008 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1161754illini07Member
But if the Torah says the woman’s place is in the home, it’s in the home, no ifs ands or buts about it. /sarcasm
With day school tuition the way it is, and with the cost of having several children, there is rarely such a thing as a man working and the wife working “just to bring extra money in.”November 25, 2008 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1161755SJSinNYCMember
intellegent, out of real curiosity – what do you understand about women not driving? I really dont get the issue. I would think being in your private car would be much better than in public transportation. Its not an issue I can even understand the other side, and I would like to.November 25, 2008 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1161756intellegentMember
It could be there is a very specific reason, but according to what I think (no basis, just making up) I would imagine that they consider it a man’s job. A woman sits in the back or in the passenger seat and the man drives. I guess it’s a way of having the woman being more passive then active. I don’t really have a very good explanation and as I said, I am very happy to be able to drive and don’t think there is something majorly wrong with it. I do respect those who have this minhag/chumra/meshugas, (I hope I included one of the right words so no one corrects me that it is a minhag not a chumra or vice versa, we gotta be very careful with the technicalities around here…:) as believe I am open-minded enough that I can accept other people’s belief’s even if I think it’s fine.November 25, 2008 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1161757
Although the Torah does say a womans place is in the home, Torah is more important than all so if it is possible that the husband can learn even if that means the wife will not be home it is worth it. And I do know families where the wife is working for just extra money, I know a couple, the husband opened a business for a his wife, it runs on a deficit but it is something to keep the wife busy and will probably be cheaper than her shopping all day. So every situation is different which is why the husband should have a rav he is close to to discuss such matters.November 25, 2008 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1161758anon for thisParticipant
The ideal that women stay at home is not realistic even for women who don’t work outside the home. I don’t work outside the home and have children in elementary school and preschoolers at home. As I noted above, I need to go out to take my children to school and doctor appointments, shop for groceries and other necessities, and supervise my children playing outside/ take them to the playground or other outings. There’s no way my husband could take care of all of these tasks and work besides. Besides, by taking my children on these errands, I teach/ model appropriate public behavior and how to interact with others.November 25, 2008 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1161759I can only tryMember
You don’t seem “plain stupid” in the least.
You appear to be a baales chesed to a commendable degree.
Forgive me if I worded my thoughts in an overly strong manner, but I was expressing concern about the potential risk.
As is often the case with us older folk, when I was a young bochur I did not always practice what I now preach, and often gave lifts to frum people in Flatbush, Boro Park and the mountains. B”H there were never any problems, and the overwhelming likelihood is that you wouldn’t ever have any either. Nonetheless, it is important to recognize that that risk exists.
With the (hopefully) added wisdom of years, I am now saying what I suppose my parents would have said to me.
Also, there is clearly a difference between a woman giving a lift to other women or girls, or giving a ride to a man.
Of course that is not to say that no one should ever be offered a lift – a few years back my wife picked up a frum man who was being pursued by a group of shachorim.
My opinion on this is not halacha-based at all, but rather on keeping onseself safe – you may want to ask your parents their thoughts, rather than a rav.November 26, 2008 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1161760
Thank you for your concern I can only try, I do not pick up men only ladies or girls, but I guess maybe I should ask my parent what they think of it… It’s just so hard to just pass by these people waiting by the bus or just walking the streets in the cold…November 26, 2008 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1161761The Big OneParticipant
Has there been any discussion regarding the safety issue (or lack thereof) of having them on the road?November 26, 2008 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1161762havesomeseichelMember
THE BIG ONE- why is insurance for women cheaper then men? even teenage girls it is cheaper then for teenage boys (even those older then they are)??? maybe because they are safer drivers?
How are people to get around if they live in an area without public transportation or where it is unsafe? Outside of NY, many frum people are forced to drive because they will not trust the bus. Also, hitching is so dangerous- dont put yourself in a sakana!! In some areas, frum people live so spread out that to get to high school they need to drive. What is better- going to public school and not driving or driving to a BY/Yeshiva?November 26, 2008 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1161763Mrs. BeautifulMember
I know someone that lives in BP and said she would not like to drive for tznius purposes. Then she got married and moved to a more rural neighborhood and so she made the decision that she will drive since now its not only out of convenience but more of a Necessity . so i giess a large part of the whole discussion is where u live.November 26, 2008 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1161764
she would not like to drive for tznius purposes.
Perhaps someone can explain this to me. Assuming, of course, you’re not driving some unusual, expensive or otherwise outlandish car, in what way is a woman not driving related to tznius? I just don’t get it.
The WolfNovember 26, 2008 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1161765SJSinNYCMember
The Wolf – I dont understand it either!November 26, 2008 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1161766yossieaParticipant
That’s because we’re all kofrim. Woe onto us for not understanding such a holy and divine minhag that came down from Sinai to Moses. Nobody drove cars in the midbar and nobody drove cars during the times of the Rishonim, but woe unto us that the generations have sunk so low that we are now driving cars.November 26, 2008 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1161767oomisParticipant
“oomis1105: I assume you meant that a husband must be prepared to drive 24/6, not 24/7”
My bad. Of course, 24/6 and a little bit of the 7 after Shabbos is over.November 26, 2008 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #1161768oomisParticipant
“innate feeling of what is right and what is wrong”
Respectfully, Queen of Persia , you have no innate feeling of what is right and wrong. You have the feeling of what you have been TAUGHT is right and wrong. Elsewhere, where the majority of people are NOT taught that it is wrong for women to drive, they have a different innate feeling. Your decision not to drive is yours alone. I commend you for sticking to your guns. But what works for you does not work for other people, necessarily, and it has nothing to do with life being fair or not. I have a suspicion about why some people feel it is untzniusdig for women to drive, and it may have to do with the physiology of the actual driving. But I am no expert. In any case, by all means do not drive, but please do not tell other women that your way is the innately right way. The reason we have the Torah, is that only Hashem knows what is inantely right or wrong. Left to our own devices, there was a time when sacrificing children to idol worship was thought to be innately right.November 27, 2008 5:13 am at 5:13 am #1161769Will HillParticipant
A woman should not do a mans job. This is part of the reason many (not all) Rabbonim hold woman are forbidden to drive.November 27, 2008 6:15 am at 6:15 am #1161770asdfghjklParticipant
and the reason women in some places sit in the back seat(with all 30 children)!November 27, 2008 6:59 am at 6:59 am #1161771Chacham2Member
Women have been driving since horseless carriages were invented. Since when was driving considered to be a “mans job”? I don’t understand this whole issue, and noones yet given an explanation beyond “some rabbanim forbid it”. Noones managed to yet explain how exactly it is untzniyus.
As far as I see it, this is chumros gone wild. I’m not even going to be one of those who commend the women who dont drive. It seems silly to me.November 27, 2008 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1161772yoshiMember
A woman has the capabilities to do men’s work, but a man will never be able to do all of a woman’s work (childbirth).
How interesting…November 27, 2008 8:53 am at 8:53 am #1161773mamashtakahMember
Will Hill –
“A woman should not do a mans job. This is part of the reason many (not all) Rabbonim hold woman are forbidden to drive.”
I’d like to see some sources for the “many” Rabbonim. This is quite a generalized statement; can you please back it up with some names? How many is “many?”November 27, 2008 8:58 am at 8:58 am #1161774frimchebubcheMember
roflJanuary 5, 2009 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1161775outoftownerMember
Many chassidish ladies don’t drive… Many Brisker men don’t drive beshittah… (bittul torah) Here’s the sheila… Who drives when a chassidish lady marries a brisker 😉January 5, 2009 4:09 am at 4:09 am #1161777dunnoMember
neither they take the car service!January 5, 2009 5:28 am at 5:28 am #1161778havesomeseichelMember
Their teenager!January 5, 2009 5:30 am at 5:30 am #1161779xeroxMember
dunno: good one!!January 5, 2009 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1161780enlightenedjewMember
Women have enough to worry about with their own mitzvos, there’s no need to impose another hardship on them. You should see the shopping my mother used to bring home from the supermarket, like 10-15 shopping bags full of stuff. You’re telling me she should take that to the bus? Or go shopping more often and take time from the 1,000,000 other things she needs to do?
Nobody here has yet said what disadvantages DRIVING has over other ways of getting from point A to B (bus, walking, scooter, etc). That statement from R’ Wosner needs clarification as well. What was the context? Did he mean ALL women, everywhere? IF no context and yes, all women, I think that a pretty myopic thing to say what with frum women scattered over millions of miles of terra firma in tens of thousands of different living arrangements and situations.January 5, 2009 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1161781Josh31Participant
Joseph, There may be holiness – Kedusha in every Minhag (community custom). But they become like “vows” Nedarim, except on a community instead of on an individual level. Chazal (Torah leadership 1500 to 2000 years ago) warned making vows except in the most extraordinary circumstances. Minhagim can create divisions between communities, just as vows create divisions between individuals.
Finding out that your spouse has wrapped himself or herself in vows of prohibition can be grounds for divorce if the spouse is unwilling to go to a Jewish court to get the vows released (“permitted”).
The husband has the power to nullify vows of the wife on the day hears about them if they involve personal suffering or affect their relationship. If he fails to do so, and the vow affects their relationship or cause suffering he will be held at fault for failing to nullify.January 5, 2009 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1161782AnonymousInactive
women should never be allowed to drive under its a danger to them and everyone else on the road!January 5, 2009 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1161783PhyllisMember
I drive and I find it very useful; can’t imagine not driving. In fact when i got married I had a license while my husband only had a permit! So basically when he drove, he needed me in the car legally. It was quite comical, Baruch hashem, he has his license already.January 5, 2009 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1161784Josh31Participant
If a guy has such a Minhag, he should disclose it to the Shadchan (matchmaker) before the first date. If you are married and your husband newly informs you of such a Minhag, you may have the right to demand a Get (divorce) and full payment of the Kesubah.January 5, 2009 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1161786
women should never be allowed to drive under its a danger to them and everyone else on the road!
BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! Oh, that’s a good one! You really crack me up BLAHBLAH.
You did know, of course, that women are *safer* drivers, on average, than men. Or were you just trying to be provocative?
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