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Tagged: conforming with standards, Females, following community standards, lack of tznius, minhug hamokem, tznius, unsafe drivers, upholding tznius
- This topic has 304 replies, 88 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 8 months ago by ujm.
November 23, 2008 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #588708Mrs. BeautifulMember
Is it appropriate for women to drive? My husband claims not, but I dont see a difference if the woman is in the driver’s seat or the front passenger seat…November 23, 2008 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1161685
It depends on your husbands minhug. Some communities consider it lacking in tzinius. (i.e. in Williamsburg and many areas in Eretz Yisroel.)November 23, 2008 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1161686illini07Member
Is it appropriate for women to leave the house without an escort? Without a burqa?November 23, 2008 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1161687
It’s appropriate if they know how to drive!!! This a.m. I was in the gym’s parking lot, this woman in front of me was looking for a place to park, all of a sudden she started backing into me! I of course beeped at her, and in the gym told her LOOK BEFORE YOU START BACKING OUT!!! That would have been trouble for her and for me!November 23, 2008 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1161688
ushmartem meod es nafshochem (ok, i cant transliterate, but you get the posuk)
Women are known to be safer drivers then men are!
By the way- what are women suppossed to do if they need to take their child to the doctor or whatever in the middle of the day and their husband is at kollel/work??? Are they to walk (now, remember what it is like having a sick child…)
or take a sick kid on a bus? (and get everyone else sick, including the elderly?)November 23, 2008 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1161689noitallmrParticipant
“a difference if the woman is in the driver’s seat or the front passenger seat…”
Sure there’s a difference. A woman driving is definitely a lot more attracting then just being in the passenger seat.
I don’t think there’s any problem in woman driving in all issues including Tznius. But it depends what car though. If it’s a flashy colored car or 4 x 4 I think that’s wrong but a normal 5/7 seater car’s fine.November 23, 2008 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1161690
Bottom line is to follow your husbands minhug/poisek in this matter (as you should in all mattters.)November 23, 2008 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1161691
You raise a good point. Here in Rockland County, many of the chassidic women do not drive. Either their husbands drive them or they get a ride by a non chassidic lady (like me) or they take a taxi to doctor appointments, etc. They have a private bus company that takes their under five children to nursery. They are used to this way of life. I am in a way glad because if they drove, just think of the traffic! Some tell me that they are glad they don’t drive otherwise they would be running around all day.November 23, 2008 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1161692
I think it is more tznius for a woman to drive than to walk in the street, in the car noone sees her, but everyone passes by her when she walks on a busy street. Not meaning that a woman should not walk on a street, but in my opinion she is more noticable walking outside than in a car.November 23, 2008 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1161693Proud JewMember
Harav Hagoan Reb Shmuel Wosner, One of the the Poskei Hador, writes in a Kol Korei:
A Woman who drives is considered “OIVER AL DAS YEHUDIS”November 23, 2008 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1161694The Rabbis daughtersMember
of course it depends on what people think thay should dolike the chasidish woman dont drive, but they would probaly be better off if they did. when you have a family and you need to do grocery shopping where do you put your stuff when your husband is at work. taxis are expensive and you cant always depend on other people for rides.of course it depends on what you hold by like the chasidish woman butNovember 23, 2008 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1161695
i once started a thread like this but it disapeared
why dont chasidish laides drive? i know your all going to tell me its not tznius BUT WHY? its not like they stay in there house all day? they have to get places-so they walk more thats worse then driving…..we all want our husbands to learn but im assuming they theres a lot more bittle torah if they have to keep stoping and driving there kids places
i mammesh dont understand can someone please explain this to me-thanxNovember 23, 2008 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1161696heimesheyidMember
First of all let’s just back track a second.
#1 Ladies are not supposed to be on the street period! ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????! And thats a Gemara! this whole thimg that ladies walk around on the street started just after the Milchamah and R’ Moshe Z”l write in a Tsuvah (Yoreh Deah 55)that he’s very disturbed about this fact, which started in America.
#2 DELETED BY MODERATOR – THIS IS A WARNINGNovember 23, 2008 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1161697heimesheyidMember
Way to go “Proud Jew”… Let’s sing that loud so the world can hear…November 23, 2008 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1161698Pashuteh YidMember
Oy vey, women drivers, oy vey. (Not halachically, just practically.) When I am behind a women driver, I know my trip will take 3 times as long. Don’t even get me started on this subject. Oy vey.November 23, 2008 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1161699jewishfeminist02Member
What could possibly be inappropriate about women driving? I am not disagreeing here to disagree, I literally DO NOT UNDERSTAND what the issue is. It makes no sense to me.
What’s next? Should women sit in their houses with the curtains drawn all day since after all “kol kevudah bas melech penima”???November 23, 2008 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1161700
jf02, FINALLY you actually have a good idea! 🙂November 23, 2008 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1161701
I think no woman should drive – as long as her husband is prepared to be her private chauffeur 24/7. But since the very guys who are against their women driving are the very guys who are NEVER available to drive them anywhere, it would behoove them to keep their opinions to themselves and not seek to make their wives’ lives even harder than they already are. It is no less tzniusDIG (the word Tznius means “modesty” not “modest”) for a woman to ride on a camel (and did not Rachel Emainu, the paradigm for Tznius sit atop a camel when her father questioned her about the stolen idols), than for her to drive a car. In fact the camel riding is LESS tzniusdig, because in the car, she is at least completely not visible from the shoulders down. Those who do not want their women to drive, do so out of a misguided belief that it will “hobble” them and keep them close to home, IMO. IF the chassidim are relying upon NON-chassidic women to drive their wives to necessary appointments, would you not agree that this sounds a little hypocritical?November 23, 2008 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1161702
oomis, when you become a posek, you can fathom whatever logic, however wrong, that suits your desire.
Btw, I DO agree with Pashuteh Yid’s point here…November 23, 2008 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1161703
oomis1105, I am with you all the way. The chassidish women ask me to drive them places (I had one lady who thought she could call me at home, as if I was a free car sevice). Another chassidish lady asked me if she could come to my house and watch a movie, how shocked she was to learn I don’t have any, haha I showed her! Maybe they forget the reasons for their minhagim. Again, I will state that I am thrilled they don’t drive, traffic is bad enough as it is!November 23, 2008 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1161704NobodyMember
This question is relative to where the woman lives and who she is.
Some woman drive to get from A to B and as part of their day to day living. Some woman drive about in their cars just to be seen. Some woman drive l’shem mitzva i.e bikur choilim.
Pashuteh Yid, keep your silly comments to yourself!!! driving behind a guy who has his cell in one hand and a cigarette in the other, drinking a coffe at the same time is so common, you just don’t see it. It’s also illegal and dangerous.
Every woman who drives I am sure is doing so with the approval of her husband and local minhag and that’s all that mattersNovember 23, 2008 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1161705
Men are known to speed, ladies are more careful and cautious when they drive. You guys should slow down, or you will get a ticket.November 23, 2008 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1161706
ok…. women are now not allowed to drive or even walk on the street. Next- not allowing them to learn to read and write. Then they cannot speak outdoors at all- even in a whisper–. Oh! Dont forget the burkas!November 23, 2008 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #1161707
i agree w u! i dont want to start a fight i just want to understand WHY its not tzanua? why is it better to be snooring rides from e/o and yes be standing in the street forever waiting for your ride? i understand that the chasidim dont drive and im not telling them they have to drive, i just want to know why? my friend has a sis-in-law who doesnt drive and she never has time to do a/t for herself bec shes always chauffeuring her s-i-l and her kids and what about the chassidish schools who dont let there teachers drive at all not just not to school????someone please explain this to meNovember 23, 2008 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1161708Will HillParticipant
Who’s silly idea was it anyways to give them driving license’s in the first place?
(Probably the same crowd that made the mistake of giving them suffrage…)November 23, 2008 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1161709
Joseph,believe me when I say I neither have the desire nor the ability to pasken. This is not an issue that requires a p’sak. Maybe women should also not walk in the street? Ladies are generally better and safer drivers than men. They don’t have the burning need to use their vehicle as an extension of themselves, a factor with which many men choose the cars that they buy. It’s a “guy” thing. And those of you men who are honest with yourselves, know this to be true. A woman in the frum velt especially if she is supporting her family, needs to be able to easily get from point A to point B. And if you think that shopping without a car is so easy – it ain’t. Women need to be able to enjoy a little bit of freedom, as well – or is that the problem, as you see it?November 24, 2008 12:57 am at 12:57 am #1161710
oomis: Then leave it to whose job it is to make these decisions — Rabbonim & Poskim. If THEY decide its a tznius issue, you and I are nothings and can say nothing regarding THEIR decision for their kehilos. (If you are of a different kehila, simply follow your Rabbonim and let them follow theirs.)November 24, 2008 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1161711
Will Hill ROFL!!
Jfem – I agree with you. I have no idea the issue of why a woman couldnt drive. But then again, we agree that women can learn gemara so clearly we are out of srts with the people here!November 24, 2008 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1161712posek hadorMember
TZNIUS_ means modesty- which means not being flashy or sticking out. Like what noitallmr said don’t think there’s any problem in woman driving in all issues including Tznius. But it depends what car though. If it’s a flashy colored car or 4 x 4 I think that’s wrong but a normal 5/7 seater car’s fine.
modesty MEANS NOT STICKING OUT. FINISHED.
THERE is a gemarah in meseches avodah zarah daf 18a relates the story of rav chanina ben tradion (one of the asarah harugei malchus HYD) and what happened to his entire family about his daughter the gemarah says ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????????? Trans. She was put in the bais Znus and the midah c`neged middah is once she was going in front of some officers of rome. she heard one of them commenting HOW nice is her steps [ the way she walks]
after hearing that she was careful about her steps [ lit. she walked even nicer] and it is middah k`neged middah etc.
REb mattisyahu solomon shlita in amussar shiur translated and learned the gemarah like this
SHE WAS EXTRA TZNIUS TO THE POINT WHERE SHE STUCK OUT. SHE THOUGHT BY DOING THIS IT IS TZNIUS BUT THE POINT OF TZNIUS IS NOT TO STICK OUT. AND WHEN SHE HEARD THE OFFICERS SHE WALKED REGULAR. TZNIUS IS TO BE NORMAL AND NOT FLASHY. THAT IS WHY IT IS ASSUR TO WHERE RED.
ALSO SHMIRAS AYNIAIM IS A CHIYUV ON THE MAN NOT THE WOMEN
POSEK HADORNovember 24, 2008 4:15 am at 4:15 am #1161713
i still dont understand whats not tznius about driving?November 24, 2008 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1161715Chuck SchwabParticipant
sjs, what makes you think he was kidding… suffrage was certainly a mistake.November 24, 2008 4:54 am at 4:54 am #1161716The Queen of PersiaMember
I could never understand what was not tsniusdik about women driving until I went to seminary in a little town in the negev. In this little town NO women drove cars. I lived in that town for two years. During my second year there we had a french lady teacher who commuted from Yerushalayim. Everyone was shocked and embarrassed every time she drove into town. Actually, most people pitied her for being so modern and quite simply “not getting it”. Several years passed. Upon visiting this town once again some 15 years after having left… I got the shock of my life. About 90% of the women were driving cars! The women who did not drive became the minority. Driving suddenly became the “in” thing to do. I was so saddened.
Go explain a feeling to people. To this day I do not drive. Either I walk to where I need to go or I take a car service. Is it an inconvenience? Sure. Difficult? Absolutely. Frustrating? Often. But who ever said that life was supposed to be easy? I only go out when I have to go out. Otherwise, I’m quite content to stay home. Some women have a hobby of “window shopping”. It’s a sickness. And it’s very, very sad. Others find nothing wrong with going out and eating in restaurants. People have a misunderstanding that eating is a matter of etiquette. Eating has nothing to do with etiquette and everything to do with TSNIUS.
I’m sure you are all going to come down on me with requests of proofs. Prove it… prove it… prove it. Where exactly is it written???? I get that all the time on this website. Is it so unheard of to have an innate feeling of what is right and what is wrong without having to prove every dot, comma & period?November 24, 2008 6:50 am at 6:50 am #1161717anon for thisParticipant
Queen of Persia,
I understand that you feel that not driving is a more tznius way to behave. And perhaps in E”Y the situation is different. But I live in the northeast and if I didn’t drive, I wouldn’t be able to take my children to school, playdates, or doctor appointments. I would also not be able to shop for groceries or other necessities. All of these places are too far to walk (especially with little kids) and using a car service to get to them would be prohibitively expensive (not to mention dangerous, since most car services don’t have car seats). Bus service would be very expensive and most stores here don’t deliver.
I shop for clothing for myself about once a year. I don’t “window shop”, since I take at least a couple of kids with me almost everywhere I go, and they have little patience for window shopping. About once a month or so, I “eat” at a pizza shop or similar establishment with my children. (Actually, since I’m supervising my children I eat very little). So your examples about women who “window shop” or eat at restaurants don’t apply to me. And this is true of most of the frum women in my city.
Truly, my life would be easier if I didn’t drive, because then my husband would have to do all of these errands. But it would make his life much more difficult. My daughter has a classmate whose mother does not drive, so this girl needs to ask other people for rides instead. I don’t think she enjoys it that much.November 24, 2008 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1161718Mrs. BeautifulMember
SJSinNYC: What does ROFL stand for?November 24, 2008 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1161719
Queen, no one minds if you feel that you are upholding your feeling of tznius if YOU dont drive. Its a problem when people say things like “its assur for women to drive” and that is where asking for sources come in.
Honestly, I think you have it backwards. Riding on a bus has the potential to be a lot less tzanua than driving a car. After all, on a bus you could trip (either drawing attention to yourself or having your clothes possibly shift improperly), you could bump into a man, you could sneeze loudly and draw attention to yourself…whereas in a car, the only thing people would see is your head for a moment as you drive by.
Just remember – innate feeling of “right and wrong” are not a Jewish concept. We believe in halacha and that everything stems from the Torah. Going with what you think is “right and wrong” is very dangerous and can lead to you breaking halacha because your thougts were different.November 24, 2008 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1161720illini07Member
And clearly so was the free-exercise clause…November 24, 2008 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1161721nfgoMember
oomis1105: I assume you meant that a husband must be prepared to drive 24/6, not 24/7.November 24, 2008 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1161722mdlevineMember
nfgo – 24/7 could be correct – one time a little over three years ago at around 1AM on Shabbos, the taxi didn’t show up amd I indeed had to drive my wife to the hospital.November 24, 2008 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1161723NobodyMember
Typical, here we go again fighting men versus the women.
Do you think the time will come when we will all agree on one subject – don’t bother answering!November 24, 2008 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1161724
No one is imposing a No Women Drivers rule on worldwide Jewry.
But appreciate the holy minhugim of others that have been applied by Gedolei Yisroel ZT’L and Shlita that are fully rooted in our holy Torah — even if YOU don’t understand the logic.November 24, 2008 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1161725
Joseph – is this considered a minhag or a chumrah? I would call this a chumrah. If its a chumrah, it means there is a reason to be extra strict – one which I dont understand. Chumrah’s need logic – they arent halacha and you get to choose if you want to take on extra stringencies.November 24, 2008 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1161726WolfishMusingsParticipant
Harav Hagoan Reb Shmuel Wosner, One of the the Poskei Hador, writes in a Kol Korei:
A Woman who drives is considered “OIVER AL DAS YEHUDIS”
I’ve love to know the context of this statement, as well as its parameters. Anyone have any further info?
The WolfNovember 24, 2008 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #1161727
Someone commented before about flashy cars not being tzniyus. I just wanted to add that it works for both men and women. Men (who normally buy the cars) should not waste time and money on flashy cars- even if they are the ones who will drive them!
Driving seems to be a chumrah that some rabanim have instituted. Please explain what makes driving more untzniyus then WALKING or HITCHING RIDES or FALLING OVER MEN ON BUSES WHEN MEN WONT GET UP FOR THE WOMEN.November 24, 2008 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1161728
“oomis: Then leave it to whose job it is to make these decisions — Rabbonim & Poskim. If THEY decide its a tznius issue, you and I are nothings and can say nothing regarding THEIR decision for their kehilos. (If you are of a different kehila, simply follow your Rabbonim and let them follow theirs.) “
I am sorry,but I do not agree with you that this is a rabbinical issue whatsoever. Your rabbonim and poskim (not mine) who say it is assur, may have a very different mindset than most others. No one is supposed to asser something that imposes a hardship on most of the klal, and will sure to not be followed by the rohv am (I am not talking about mamesh halacha from the Torah, but rather areas that are shades of gray). Women (hello!) comprise more than a majority of klal Yisroel. When women had other modes of transportation, they used them. Supposing a woman is unmarried, widowed, divorced, etc. Should she have to wait for someone to drive her around? SHould she have to take cabs (very expensive on a regular basis) and public transport late at night, rather than the safety of her own car? In olden times, are you telling me frum women never drove a wagon or rode on a horse or donkey? NEVER?????? I do not believe that. And neither do most people. AS I Said earlier, our Emahos CLEARLY did. A horse is less tzniusdig for a woman to sit on, then a car. I won’t even ride a bicycle, even in a very long skirt, as I have seen many frum women do, because it is a potentially untzniusdig view from the back.November 24, 2008 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1161729
SJS, Even if it is a chumra, if the Rabbonim of the Kehila decree it, it is obligatory upon all members of the Kehila whether they understand it or not.November 24, 2008 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1161730
Incumbent upon members of a specific Kehillah – yes. But certainly not incumbent upon the rest of us. And even within the parameters of the Kehillah, a rov is not supposed to make a gezaira that cannot (or worse, WILL not) be followed by the majority, when it is not a matter of clear halacha l’maiseh, but rather that rov’s personal hashkafa. To give an example, my Rov would not eat at a certain restaurant. But when asked if it was kosher, he said, “Absolutely,” and if asked if he would eat there, would say that he only assers on himself, but there is no chashash. He understood that a standard that he set for himself, for whatever reason, was not necessarily one that others had to set for themselves.November 24, 2008 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #1161731gavra_at_workParticipant
What does your rav have to say about the subject? Did you ask him?November 24, 2008 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1161732teenagerMember
I drive and see no problem with it at all.
A chasid was driving behind me, and when we both got out at the same place, he asked if that was me driving. I responded in the affirmative and he was like wow you drive really well.. for a women. That really bothered me.
Also if you dont let your women drive, how is it anymore ok to hitch a ride with a women? I get asked by chasidish men a lot to drive them places, you dont think thats untzniusdik with me being a 19 year old girl?November 24, 2008 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1161733
Mrs. Beautiful: ROFL = rolling on the floor laughing. Its not literal 🙂
Joseph, I am not 100% sure you are right on the chumrah thing (but I could be wrong). Isnt the point of a chumrah to be extra strict for yourself? A rav can ask his congregation to take it on, but if you are adding a chumrah there would seem to be a need for an explanation. After all, its an addition to halacha. But then again, I could be 100% wrong. Feel free to clarify.November 24, 2008 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1161734Chacham2Member
teenager: That does seem very wrong. How old are these men?
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