How are girls learning Gemorah

aheimisherenglisher: You’re 100% correct.

Only the Modern “Orthodox” and the non-Orthodox violate this Halacha.

maybe not a direct answer, but R Steinsaltz in a small book that summarizes Talmud for newbies mentions this inter alia, noting that R Eliezer is known for extreme views. Rabbis had no problem with Beruriah learning and the fact that she learned 300 halochot from 300 teachers in one day, or something like that, is brought approvingly. That means that all 300 teachers did not mind her in the class. You decide whether there was a whole class of ladies, or she was in a co-ed class, or she was given class one-on-one.

As to other writings, they bring a clear rationale which is not so true today. Clearly, there are women in our times that are intellectually prepared. The rationale to teach them – they might be learning at advanced levels sciences and non-Jewish humanities. They can, and need to, understand Judaism at the same level to be able to answer people they interact with, and for their own sake.

Chofetz Chaim wanted women to know how to read – he asks those who know to read halochos of niddah from his letter to those who are not… He just did not know how to. When Mrs Schenirer started BY, she asked Yakkish ladies with PhDs to help her with the curriculum and this got approved. R Soloveitchik in 1950s suggested to have classes co-ed, otherwise classes for girls will be of inferior quality… He later led the first gemora class at Stern College, so maybe things changed.

Now, in my mind, I have 2 questions:
1) teach those who want to/capable or everyone (within the community that does it). I am skeptical whether an average girl is interested, and it is silly to force them. Many BY classes are silly as is, making girls memorize a lot of material in order to keep them off the streets. Maybe this is what R Eliezer warned about.

2) what is “gemora”. The abstract meaning is – reasoning behind mitzvos (v. mishna that is just the laws, to include S’A etc). This is what these ladies need. But when gemora learning is understood in the narrow sense of struggling through dafim, figuring out every machlokes between Abaye and Rava – I don’t think they need it. In my own family, I have no problem teaching BY girls “gemora” in terms of explaining some great principles behind halocha, but they do not have interest in following the daf, figuring out – correctly – that it can create problems in shidduchim.

So a woman is smart enough to be a doctor or a lawyer or judge (Judge Rachel Freier) but cant understand a chakira? Do you believe she does not posses the intellectual capacity to process a diyuk in the Rishonim? 300 years ago no one would approve of Beis Yaakov, yet some how when the time called for it, we reinterpreted tiflus to make it OK. Was the Mechaber commenting on women’s biological intellectual inferiority or was he talking about the illiterate women of his time. Times change and metzios changes. The question is was that a halachik statement that is fixed forever or was it an observation for his times and now clearly the metzios is different. Are you open to considering other approaches or are you trolling for action?

The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch aren’t as clear as you make them out to be. Yes, you’re right that they quote the shitah of R’ Eliezer and explain that Chazal said a person shouldn’t teach his daughter for the reasons that you stated. But you missed the opening line of that halacha in the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch! That a woman receives reward for learning Torah! Just not as much as a man since a man is commanded and they are not.

Why would a woman receive reward for doing something prohibited?!? I think it’s clear, that it’s not as black and white as you presented it. There is no reason, in a halachic work, for the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch to open up with them receiving reward.

In my humble opinion, the prohibition is not on women. They are allowed to learn. The prohibition is on teaching, not learning. Which I understand to mean, you cannot impose learning on all women and girls. It can’t be a mandatory learning in the way it is for boys. But if you have someone who genuinely wants to expand her Torah knowledge, and she is smart enough to do so… Then she indeed receives reward for doing so.

Goes to show halacha isn’t realistic. End of story lol. Does it fit. It doesn’t fit. Everyone needs to live in reality. Wake up

Sara Schenirer learned Gemara daily.
There was a thread about this a while back, where a lot of opinions on both sides were posted. Joseph, as usual, is full of garbage, and is ignoring anything that doesn’t match his own twisted views.

Maskilic/”Modern Orthodox” comparisons of gemara to the founding of Bais Yaakovs, and the questions from Bruriah, women being no longer only in the kitchen, etc. are all silly, despite their “Rav”/Professor of Talmud violating halacha in teaching a talmud class to women at “Yeshiva” University, something never done before.

First, no source permits giving a public talmud lecture to women as the modern day maskilim’s leader did. Ask your LOR under what specific conditions it would be permitted and perhaps even beneficial to teach gemara on an individual (not group) basis to, say, your daughter or your wife.

There was nothing halachically novel about the founding of Bais Yaakovs, which is why the rabbis approved of Ms. Schenirer’s idea. As the Chofetz Chaim wrote, until that point, girls received their mesorah at home, and did not need formal schooling as provided by BYs. Once the haskalah (forerunner of today’s “Modern Orthodox”) and Zionism and other -isms began wreaking havoc on Jewish homes, preventing the women from receiving and/or conveying the mesorah mother to daughter, there arose the need for an alternative way of conveying that mesorah, which is what Bais Yaakovs provided. (Of course, today, given the schooling structure in Western countries, Bais Yaakovs also serve the purpose of enabling Jewish girls to get a Torah education in a Torah environment rather than a secular education in a secular environment.)

Women can be great lawyers and leaders, but Torah is not an academic body of knowledge – Torah is chachmas Elokis – so that’s all irrelevant.

Bruriah was obviously exceptional, even among daughters of tannaim. We cannot fathom the greatness of our ancestors in those days, but even she, herself, proved Chazal’s wisdom, so it is foolish to go against Chazal based on the exceptional learning of Bruriah. However, as mentioned, for an individual woman to learn could be permitted, depending on the circumstances. Ask a non-Maskilic LOR for specifics.

Bayit beitar,

No one said it’s because women aren’t smart, the reason the Gemara says they (you?) shouldn’t learn Gemara is because women put their emotions into whatever they learn, just ask any seminary girl about a rule in the Gemara and she would say “that’s not fair”

Look at the story with bruriah

coffee > Look at the story with bruriah

yes, she taught her husband to pray properly in regards to some gangsters, and he turned around and lured her into a trap. So, maybe men should not be learning Gemora because of what R Meir did? And as I mentioned ^, hundreds of teachers had no problem w/ teaching her and there is noone on record objecting. It is 300 tannaim against one coffee.

katan> Bruriah was obviously exceptional, even among daughters of tannaim.

There is a suggestion in Sanhedrin that a wife of a Talmid Chacham does not require a warning for a capital punishment (adultery?) because she knows the halokha. Presumably, her husband taught her or he married a daughter of T’Ch who taught her. So, it is not just Beruriah, it is a presumption about any wife of T’Ch.