How are girls learning Gemorah

See ujm I don’t have a temple I connected directly to G-d. That’s the difference between me and you.

To ujm et al,
Most people outside your bubble really couldn’t care less what you think. You hold according to your rabbis and they hold according to theirs. It’s that simple

@ aheimishe

It’s either disingenuous or ignorant to quote one side of a nuanced issue then accuse people who disagrees with you of making things up. There where some excellent responses to the OP. You may want to go back and re-read the thread.

I doubt that’s true ujm conservative and reform and less sheeple. I don’t think you’ll hear them arguing about which rabbi said what like its gospel and holds weight. Some how I doubt that

@ none 2.0

The very sheeple are the ones who do not even recognize that they, and their whole heard, are being lead. All the while they imagine that they are thinking for themselves.

simcha613:
No, having an elective gemara class for girls is not at all “perfectly in line with this halacha”. It is forbidden to teach them Torah sheBaal peh, particularly gemara and the like, as Rav Moshe Zatza”l noted. If women choose to do so on their own, that’s their business. But their possibility of learning it improperly obviously does not then permit rabbis to violate the halacha so that the women should learn properly.

The answer is likely that you seem to feel, with no actual basis, that it’s an eilu viEilu, so this is how you seek to justify it. But, in reality, it is simply forbidden.

none2.0:
Why do you post here? This is intended for Orthodox Jews (and not people with an extreme imagination). Your libel against the Rabbis and the gemara is silly and baseless. The gemara is G-d’s truth, regardless of whether or not any women choose to learn it.

> and the like, as Rav Moshe Zatza”l noted
And your explanation for R Moshe’s granddaughter learning gemora is … She was raised by R Moshe’s daughter and his SIL whom he personally suggested to his daughter ….

> If women choose to do so on their own, that’s their business.

Good, so you permit something. Now, we simply need to define what is “on their own”. Beruriah attended classes by 300 teachers (in one day) as mentioned by Rabbi, I think. In my view and probably in yours, this qualifies as women learning on their own rather than father teaching her. So, the same in our times – I agree with you that having rigid programs where girls have to learn gemorah as part of graduation requirement either for high school or Jewish college is not appropriate, but giving them an opportunity to do so on their own decision is fine.

Who says im not Orthodox. It’s not lible. If you want to live in your echo chamber forever you can but people need a new perspective grounded in reality. And you can say it’s G-ds truth and I’m here to say it isn’t. Truth needs to be able to withstand scrutiny and fallow common sense. G-ds created common sense

AAQ: He did not suggest him at all to his daughter. His daughter met him in the New York Public Library and from there it just went from there. Rav Moshe accepted it because by time he knew about it, it was too late. The son in law misrepresented his father in law on multiple occasions.

Non political – ok… Once we accept that point where teaching is allowed and a competent instructor is necessary, I don’t see the halachic distinction between a teacher learning with a female student one on one, or a teacher teaching a class of women (assuming they chose to be there and were independently motivated to pursue that learning)

NP > The objection is to a program of formal instruction on a community level. I think it’s obvious that a girl or woman who pursues learning would need competent instruction.

I agree with the general direction you are taking. these terms are not precise. We understand that Beruriah was probably the only lady in most classes just because this was rare. Nowadays, even if this were as rare, all Beruriahs from all over the world can get on a plane and get together in a college or seminary. They can also get on zoom.

So, I would clarify ” formal instruction on a community level” as an obligatory/expected program of learning at high school/college level. See: seminary. Whether they teach gemora that leads to shtus or just shtus directly, they became as obligatory as a bas mitzvah, and you can see that it often works out in a funny way.

That said, I don’t see an objection from these halachik sources to girls/ladies who have capacity and interest – to pursue this learning in any form _they_ choose. And, furthermore, I would prefer them learning “gemorah” in the original meaning of Rambam (and probably amoraim themselves): analysis of mitzvos, not necessarily all pilpul on a daf.

@Simcha613

@UJM

You raised an interesting point about classes for like minded, capable, motivated girls who want to learn. I can think of a couple of issues:

1) What we have is Halachic precedent for is girls / women learning Talmud as individuals.There where even (rare) cases of exceptional women who gave shiur (from behind a mechitza) to men. Organized Talmud classes for girls / women is unprecedented. To be sure, that is not insurmountable. After all, Beis Yaacov was also unprecedented. However, like Beis Yaacov, such an innovation should have broad support from Gedolei Yisroel to be considered legitimate.

2) Such initiatives will surely be highjacked by people with a Feminist agenda.

@AAQ

Can you unpack what you mean about “the analysis of Mitzvot”
There are different ways to analyze Mitzvot. Do you mean: (1) legal parameters, like the Talmud. (2) reasons, like the Chinuch. (3) Something else…

What’s so hard to farshtay, AAQ? By time he found out they had already fallen in love and he was powerless to seperate them. They were both over 18, you know. He made the best of the situation by supporting their decision, rather than making a useless fight — and hoping for the best. But the best case scenario didn’t turn out. As the sign in law later defied his father’s positions on more than once occasion, both during and after his lifetime. This fact is available in a public letter from the same Agudas Yisroel than Rav Moshe was the head of.

UJM- I don’t know much about most MO schools, I’m sure you are right about some of them, not all of them (especially the separate gender ones). But I agree, in my humble opinion based on my understanding of the sugya, having a required Gemara class would be more difficult (though I assume and hope they have their own poskim making these decisions). But that’s not what I was talking about, I was talking about an elective Gemara class for girls. That doesn’t seem to be nearly as problematic (if at all) based on my understanding of the sugya, and that the girls in the class would get rewarded for such an endeavor (and presumably the teacher as well).

simcha613> I was talking about an elective Gemara class for girls.

right. and my sources @ Stern tell me that only a small number of girls attend purely “gemora” classes and many of them are politically motivated to do that. At the same time, “regular” Judaic classes bring Gemorah or Rambam related to the topic of study.

NP > 2) Such initiatives will surely be highjacked by people with a Feminist agenda.
exactly, see above.

NP > After all, Beis Yaacov was also unprecedented. However, like Beis Yaacov, such an innovation should have broad support from Gedolei Yisroel to be considered legitimate.

BY also had opposition among gedolim of the time. Maybe the difference seems to be that BY is a mass movement, and Gemora learning is not (or at least should not be). So, it affects a certain segment of women, so some Rabbis have these issues and others – avoid.

Also, the main innovation of BY was not educating of girls – that was already done by German Jews, but somehow making it acceptable to the charedi communities. Maybe same has to happen with Gemora learning.

Simcha613: “(though I assume and hope they have their own poskim making these decisions)”

You’re going too far out on a limb trying to be find a zchus in wrongful activity. If you walked by and saw a group of Jewish teens through the windows of McDonald’s having a jolly time partying eating cheeseburgers and shrimp with cheap goyish wine, you wouldn’t “klerr” that “I assume and hope they have their own poskim making these decisions” allowing them to party in a treif McDonald’s with cheeseburgers, shrimp and wine. Nor should you klerr as such about MO bungalow colonies with mixed swimming, MO shuls with a three foot “mechitza” and a social hall with mixed dancing, MO teens keeping a “half Shabbos” while texting each other, or those eating in non-kosher “vegetarian” restaurants simply by deciding it is okay by simply looking through the list of ingredients. (Only when “away from town”, of course.)

Nor should you make that deduction regarding girls schools that have a mandatory Gemora class (or virtually mandatory, where it is socially unacceptable and embarrassing to opt out and/or they are enrolled by default.)

I don’t think I read the article but heard his interview about it, and it said that kids connected first (she came up to ask him a chemistry question, I think), but then R Moshe approached R Tendler. I presume
– she knew whom she is approaching (what is a chance of meeting a random guy in NYPL and have both fathers on the same beis din?!)
– she mentioned the name to her father in a subtle way.

Why wasn’t she interested in any of the R Moshe’s students? I don’t know. Maybe because R Moshe was not recommending college to them?

Ujm you know how many teens are mechalel shabbat in our circles. Please stop acting your better every person makes choices for themselves. Maybe not wise onces but weren’t better then anyone

My daughter just got a Shas. It’s a small one, the pocket size. She goes to school in a Beis Yaakov, and they do not learn Gemara there. She said that when she learn the meforshim on Tanach, they often quote a Gemara – now she can look it up if she wants to.

ChaZal can teach whatever they want but if they don’t reach the truth then they are not teaching the truth.

When you have wise and understanding men as leaders they are going to discern things _properly_ and guide you and the nation with _wisdom_
G-d did not use this language so the elites can use it for power grabbing.

This was about saying:
“Don’t be a smart alick, if a wise and understanding person gave you good advice don’t be stupid not to listen.

Please. Take your fear mongering and control retoric,elite driven power grabbing mispresentstion of G-ds holy word and bury it deep in the depths of the grave where darkness. Evil control and manipulation belong. It’s time for _redemption_

I posted this a few times already, posting it again:
The Riva says the left/right mentioned in the pasuk refers to Rabbonim telling us not to do a mitzvah such as Shofar on Shabbos, or Arba Minim on Shabbos. It only refers to a mitzvah that they are telling us NOT to do.

The Yerushalmi says in Horios that the pasuk means only if they say right is right and left is left. If they say otherwise, you do not listen.

There are many shitos against Rashi. Indeed, both Rambam and Ramban do not pasken like Rashi in this regard. There is a Sifre which Rashi bases it on, but again, many question the Sifre, and there are Gemoros in both bavli and Yerushalmi that say otherwise. R’ Ovadia Yosef reconciles the two views as I mentioned above – you have to confront the Rav if you think he erred. Until you confront him, you do not listen. The Yad HaMelech states that if you listen when you think he erred just because you think you have to listen, you are required to bring a korbon chatas. Only after confronting the Rav with the opposing view, and he stands by what he said, are you required to listen.

@ DaMoshe

Your last post was excellent. It will, unfortunately, go underappreciated

You are not “required” to listen to anyone. Nobody can force anyone to listen to anything especially not a human being. Only G-d can do that and generally he does it when you do something morally _currupt_ see the difference.