Acharon Shel Pesach / Shabbos / Gebroks

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  • #602640
    ontheball
    Member

    So this year Acharon shel pesach comes out on Shabbos. Anyone knows how that works with “gebroks”? No kneidlach? Or can they be made before?

    #863127
    dash™
    Participant

    There are different Shittos in how Eruv Tavshilin works so if you can’t eat the food on Yom Tov, it’s not so clear whether it can be made for Shabbos.

    #863128
    deiyezooger
    Member

    You make them before shabbos. (some are makpid to do it the last thing in that pot after all the non gebrockts is done).

    #863129
    Sam2
    Participant

    I don’t see a problem. Why can’t you have Kneidlach all the days of Pesach?

    #863130
    147
    Participant

    Like Sam2, I also see no problem, & am planning on already having Matzo Ball Soup during Shulchon Oruch @the very 1st Seder, and throughout Pesach.

    FYI:- Once Matzo is baked, it can never become Chometz.

    However:- You ontheball have option of being Makneh:- Selling your Matzo Meal to me or Sam2, and then it is our Matzo that is being mixed with water during the 1st 7 days of Pesach, and we shall allow you to consume our cooked Matzo meal on Acharon Shel Pessach.

    #863131
    farrocks
    Member

    Many people have the same minhag as the Chofetz Chaim and the Steipler to not eat gebrochts.

    #863132
    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    farrocks:

    I don’t know what the Chofetz Chaim did in his home but he does discuss in the Mishnah Berurah about eating knaidlach on erev pesach afternoon. He does not mention any minhag of avoiding wet matzah over there. Also, keep in mind that the minhag of avoiding wet matzah was enacted concerning hand matzah. Those who decided to be stringent never saw the machine kneaded wheat matzos most people use for the larger portion of the holiday.

    #863133
    farrocks
    Member

    AIC: I would say most people use hand matzah for the entire yom tov.

    #863134
    Sam2
    Participant

    Farrocks: Don’t judge “most people” by your own community. Many Davka use hand and many Davka use machine. And many will use either.

    #863135
    farrocks
    Member

    Sam: Why weren’t compelled to protest when AIC first used “most people” in the other direction?

    #863136
    mamashtakah
    Member

    What’s also interesting is that the last day of Pesach in E”Y is on a Friday, which means Shabbat still has to be Peaschdik (since chametz can’t be bought back). However, there would not be anything wrong with eating kitniyot, so we’re already planning a kitniyot Shabbat that week, including hummos, beans, etc.

    #863137
    ontheball
    Member

    In my community most people eat only hand matzah- and a very large percentage don’t “bruck ” the first seven days.

    #863138
    ontheball
    Member

    Sorry, btw about the “peach” and “generous” in the title. My spell check “corrected” pesach and gebroks for me!

    #863139
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Fixed it for you.

    #863140
    Sam2
    Participant

    Farrocks: I don’t think it’s an unfair assumption to say that people didn’t use machine Matzos before they existed. I do think it’s an unfair assumption to say that most people only eat hand Matzos. It may end up being true (I can’t claim to have polled the entire Frum world), but it’s still an unfair assumption.

    #863141
    Toi
    Participant

    Dont make fun of minhagim. You can make them b4.

    #863142
    Logician
    Participant

    Sam2 – Let’s say it like this: Most people who eat certain types of matztah based on minhag or halachah, not on preferences, eat hand matzah.

    #863143
    ontheball
    Member

    Thanks 42

    #863144
    yungerman1
    Participant

    ontheball- If you dont eat gebrokst then you shouldnt be making gebrokst either. Therefore you will have to make your kneidlach on Shabbos- which is probably not halachicly possible.

    #863145
    avhaben
    Participant

    Yungerman1 is correct.

    #863146
    sof davar
    Member

    Rav Chaim Cohen Shlita said this past Shabbos that you can make the kneidels before shabbos because gebroks is a chumra and it is really permissible to eat.

    #863147
    Sam2
    Participant

    Logician: I’m not sure if that’s true. I have met many people who only it machine because there is much, much less of a chance of getting uncooked flour in or on your machine Matzah than your hand Matzah.

    #863148
    mezapeh liyeshua
    Participant

    Sure is permitted

    #863149
    avhaben
    Participant

    That’s what they say, Sam. (Many, not all. Some are sincere.) But they are really just trying to save some bucks.

    #863151
    shtusim
    Participant

    I asked R’ Yaakov Reisman, and he told me that there is no problem to make Gebrochts on Erev Shabbos for Shabbos.

    ENJOY !!!

    #863152
    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    Yekkes, being from an industrialized country – Germany, are makpid on machine matzos because there is less chance of human error.

    #863153
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Interesting discussion. As far as the “matirim’ to make kneidlach before Yom tov- our “hetter’ to cook from yom tov to shabbos is based on the possibility of receiving guests before shabbos (“dechozo le-orchim”) and so, if you cannot eat those kneidlach on shevi-i shel pessach -as per your minhag- why whould you be able to prepare it for shabbos? (Eiruv tavshilim is a “hekker”)

    #863154
    yungerman1
    Participant

    sof davar & shtusim- Many are machmir and dont eat Gebrokst because its a chshash chometz. The above mentioned psak doesnt appear to reflect this reality.

    FYI- Many Litvishe Rabbonim will give you a similar psak because they dont hold of gebrokst themselves. The Chassidisher Rabbonim and others that dont eat gebrokst will most likely tell you that you cannot make it on erev shabbos.

    #863155
    ontheball
    Member

    Thank you all for your responses. I guess this is is a real minhag situation- I’ll have to ask my LOR.

    #863156
    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Mamash- Kitniyos on the last day? Is there a source for such a thing for one who does not eat it for first 7?

    #863157
    Toi
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin-hoyil dchozi- your guests may eat gebrokts.

    #863158
    sof davar
    Member

    yungerman1-

    The rav to whom i referred (Rav Chaim Cohen) is a spodik wearing gerrer chassid and a big posek.

    #863159
    EY Mom
    Participant

    As far as hand vs. machine, one thing is certain:

    Most people who don’t eat gebrochts don’t eat machine matzah, either. Not all, but most.

    #863160
    SayIDidIt™
    Participant

    If you don’t eat gebrokts, you are saying that Matzah that gets wet is a Shaila of Chometz. If so, how can you make Gebroktz on Pesach?

    #863161
    oomis
    Participant

    FYI:- Once Matzo is baked, it can never become Chometz.”

    Those that hold by non-gebrokts do not agree with that statement. I personally do eat gebrokts, but those who don’t, have a chashash that a speck of flour did not get kneaded into the matzah dough thoroughly, and therefore never actually baked with the rest of the dough (unless you agree that any flour that is exposed to a high temperature is baked). So when that speck of flour comes into contact with a new liquid (i.e. soup and knaidlech), the flour that previously was not mixed with liquid has now become mixed with a liquid and can become chometz in 18 minutes. At least that is my understanding of the issue. Those who eat gebrokts believe this possibility to be less than nil, and that once baked, matzah is matzah and as you said, cannot become chometz.

    I have another question that has always bothered me. What is this “18 minute matzos” business. ISn’t all matzah under 18 minutes from start to finish, or it becomes chometz?

    #863163
    yungerman1
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin- “our “hetter’ to cook from yom tov to shabbos is based on the possibility of receiving guests before shabbos (“dechozo le-orchim”)”

    I have not learned the sugya of eruv tavshlin so please educate me. If you are worried that you may have guests on yom tov then you should be allowed to cook on yom tov regardless of the eruv tavshilin or the next day being Shabbos?

    #863164
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “Many are machmir and dont eat Gebrokst because its a chshash chometz.”

    The same chashash exists on the last day of pesach too; so much for this “chumra” shtus.

    #863165
    farrocks
    Member

    The last day is only added in chutz and is really after yom tov. And the Chofetz Chaim and the Steipler Gaon also had this chumra “shtus”. I’m with them.

    #863166
    Sam2
    Participant

    Oomis: Actually, if you ask Rav Schachter, 18 minutes is a mistake. You actually have 22.

    #863167
    MDG
    Participant

    “the Chofetz Chaim and the Steipler Gaon also had this chumra”

    They did but not their families.

    #863168
    EY Mom
    Participant

    May I ask a question?

    How did this discussion morph from the poster’s question – a query asking how and if the tradition of eating non-gebrochts on Acharon shel Pesach can be worked out this year – to a wholesale discussion on the validity of the minhag of not eating gebrochts?

    Have we really descended to the point where we cannot handle minhagim that are different from our own?

    The minhag of not eating gebrochts is not a recent phenomenon, nor are its roots of disputed origin. Those who keep it are right to keep it and to safeguard it. Those who don’t, don’t. Why is this becoming such an issue?

    As to those who ask, if one doesn’t eat gebrochts all week of Pesach, how can they do so on Acharon shel Pesach, the answer is this: Because it is a chumrah. And in order to show that it is a chumrah and not me’ikar hadin, in chutz la’Aretz it has become a tradition to davka eat gebrochts on acharon shel Pesach. In EY, there is no such minhag as all days of Yom Tov are d’oraisa.

    #863169
    MDG
    Participant

    “Have we really descended to the point where we cannot handle minhagim that are different from our own?”

    A lot of people give off the impression that if you don’t do things their way, you are doing it wrong. That of course is silly, because to do things right, you don’t have to do them their way, you have do them my way 🙂

    #863170
    ontheball
    Member

    Thank you all. I was told I am allowed to prepare my “gebroks” food before Shabbos. The reason we eat gebroks Acharon shel pesach is to show its just a chumrah. That’s our minhag, and many other families minhag!

    #863171
    kvy613
    Member

    To RABBAIM

    You misunderstood mamash. He is planning to eat kitniyot on the shabbos after pesach( In E’Y Shabbos is issru chag)

    #863172
    Naysberg
    Member

    MDG: Rav Chaim, who is the Steipler’s son, also doesn’t eat gebrochts.

    #863173
    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    Just to clarify, the reason I used the term most people in referring to those who use machine matzoh for the larger part of the week is because I am involved in matzoh production here in the holy land and have found that most people who order matzoh order just enough hand-made for the seder and order machine-made for the rest of the holiday.

    Also, I have been involved in the alternative-grain matzoh scene both hand and machine. I can tell you that those who require gluten-free oat matzoh should check each individual matzoh for hollow areas containing unbaked flour. Gluten-free oat dough is extremely tough and sticky and the machines that usually do a great job on wheat or spelt have a hard time with the oats. In addition, although any flour residue found on the outside of the matzoh has been heated far past the point of being ever able to rise, unmixed flour that is trapped inside a dough is shielded from the heat and can easily pose a problem – it is still white.

    PS I eat gebrochts – it’s chumra on oneg yom tov

    #863174
    dash™
    Participant

    What is this “18 minute matzos” business. ISn’t all matzah under 18 minutes from start to finish, or it becomes chometz?

    No, dough that is continuosly worked will never become Chometz.

    #863175
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, dough that is continuosly worked will never become Chometz.

    Most things that continuously work will make dough.

    #863176
    Toi
    Participant

    yungerman- its a sugya in tomid nishchat. and other places.

    oomis- 18 minutes is a massive chumra (ehich we all follow- i’m not debating it), and in reality, it takes alot longer.

    #863177
    Sam2
    Participant

    On the idea of saying Ho’il even if no one can eat it, see SHU”T Chassam Sofer O.C 79 and R’ Akiva Eiger 1:7 if I recall correctly. This case should be better than the one they’re discussing though because Gebrochts is Chazi for people who don’t have that Minhag (or even for people who do, depending on who you ask).

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