Acharon Shel Pesach / Shabbos / Gebroks
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- This topic has 66 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 2 months ago by Sam2.
March 25, 2012 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #602640
So this year Acharon shel pesach comes out on Shabbos. Anyone knows how that works with “gebroks”? No kneidlach? Or can they be made before?March 25, 2012 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #863127dash™Participant
There are different Shittos in how Eruv Tavshilin works so if you can’t eat the food on Yom Tov, it’s not so clear whether it can be made for Shabbos.March 25, 2012 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #863128deiyezoogerMember
You make them before shabbos. (some are makpid to do it the last thing in that pot after all the non gebrockts is done).March 25, 2012 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #863129
I don’t see a problem. Why can’t you have Kneidlach all the days of Pesach?March 26, 2012 12:08 am at 12:08 am #863130147Participant
Like Sam2, I also see no problem, & am planning on already having Matzo Ball Soup during Shulchon Oruch @the very 1st Seder, and throughout Pesach.
FYI:- Once Matzo is baked, it can never become Chometz.
However:- You ontheball have option of being Makneh:- Selling your Matzo Meal to me or Sam2, and then it is our Matzo that is being mixed with water during the 1st 7 days of Pesach, and we shall allow you to consume our cooked Matzo meal on Acharon Shel Pessach.March 26, 2012 12:16 am at 12:16 am #863131
Many people have the same minhag as the Chofetz Chaim and the Steipler to not eat gebrochts.March 26, 2012 12:32 am at 12:32 am #863132Israeli ChareidiParticipant
I don’t know what the Chofetz Chaim did in his home but he does discuss in the Mishnah Berurah about eating knaidlach on erev pesach afternoon. He does not mention any minhag of avoiding wet matzah over there. Also, keep in mind that the minhag of avoiding wet matzah was enacted concerning hand matzah. Those who decided to be stringent never saw the machine kneaded wheat matzos most people use for the larger portion of the holiday.March 26, 2012 12:43 am at 12:43 am #863133
AIC: I would say most people use hand matzah for the entire yom tov.March 26, 2012 12:51 am at 12:51 am #863134
Farrocks: Don’t judge “most people” by your own community. Many Davka use hand and many Davka use machine. And many will use either.March 26, 2012 1:02 am at 1:02 am #863135
Sam: Why weren’t compelled to protest when AIC first used “most people” in the other direction?March 26, 2012 1:07 am at 1:07 am #863136mamashtakahMember
What’s also interesting is that the last day of Pesach in E”Y is on a Friday, which means Shabbat still has to be Peaschdik (since chametz can’t be bought back). However, there would not be anything wrong with eating kitniyot, so we’re already planning a kitniyot Shabbat that week, including hummos, beans, etc.March 26, 2012 3:20 am at 3:20 am #863137
In my community most people eat only hand matzah- and a very large percentage don’t “bruck ” the first seven days.March 26, 2012 3:22 am at 3:22 am #863138
Sorry, btw about the “peach” and “generous” in the title. My spell check “corrected” pesach and gebroks for me!March 26, 2012 5:54 am at 5:54 am #863139YW Moderator-42Moderator
Fixed it for you.March 26, 2012 11:29 am at 11:29 am #863140
Farrocks: I don’t think it’s an unfair assumption to say that people didn’t use machine Matzos before they existed. I do think it’s an unfair assumption to say that most people only eat hand Matzos. It may end up being true (I can’t claim to have polled the entire Frum world), but it’s still an unfair assumption.March 26, 2012 11:56 am at 11:56 am #863141
Dont make fun of minhagim. You can make them b4.March 26, 2012 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #863142LogicianParticipant
Sam2 – Let’s say it like this: Most people who eat certain types of matztah based on minhag or halachah, not on preferences, eat hand matzah.March 26, 2012 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #863143
Thanks 42March 26, 2012 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #863144
ontheball- If you dont eat gebrokst then you shouldnt be making gebrokst either. Therefore you will have to make your kneidlach on Shabbos- which is probably not halachicly possible.March 26, 2012 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #863145avhabenParticipant
Yungerman1 is correct.March 26, 2012 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #863146sof davarMember
Rav Chaim Cohen Shlita said this past Shabbos that you can make the kneidels before shabbos because gebroks is a chumra and it is really permissible to eat.March 26, 2012 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #863147
Logician: I’m not sure if that’s true. I have met many people who only it machine because there is much, much less of a chance of getting uncooked flour in or on your machine Matzah than your hand Matzah.March 26, 2012 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #863148mezapeh liyeshuaParticipant
Sure is permittedMarch 26, 2012 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #863149avhabenParticipant
That’s what they say, Sam. (Many, not all. Some are sincere.) But they are really just trying to save some bucks.March 26, 2012 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #863151shtusimParticipant
I asked R’ Yaakov Reisman, and he told me that there is no problem to make Gebrochts on Erev Shabbos for Shabbos.
ENJOY !!!March 26, 2012 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #863152YehudahTzviParticipant
Yekkes, being from an industrialized country – Germany, are makpid on machine matzos because there is less chance of human error.March 26, 2012 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #863153rabbiofberlinParticipant
Interesting discussion. As far as the “matirim’ to make kneidlach before Yom tov- our “hetter’ to cook from yom tov to shabbos is based on the possibility of receiving guests before shabbos (“dechozo le-orchim”) and so, if you cannot eat those kneidlach on shevi-i shel pessach -as per your minhag- why whould you be able to prepare it for shabbos? (Eiruv tavshilim is a “hekker”)March 26, 2012 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #863154
sof davar & shtusim- Many are machmir and dont eat Gebrokst because its a chshash chometz. The above mentioned psak doesnt appear to reflect this reality.
FYI- Many Litvishe Rabbonim will give you a similar psak because they dont hold of gebrokst themselves. The Chassidisher Rabbonim and others that dont eat gebrokst will most likely tell you that you cannot make it on erev shabbos.March 26, 2012 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #863155
Thank you all for your responses. I guess this is is a real minhag situation- I’ll have to ask my LOR.March 27, 2012 7:50 am at 7:50 am #863156RABBAIMParticipant
Mamash- Kitniyos on the last day? Is there a source for such a thing for one who does not eat it for first 7?March 27, 2012 11:32 am at 11:32 am #863157
rabbiofberlin-hoyil dchozi- your guests may eat gebrokts.March 27, 2012 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #863158sof davarMember
The rav to whom i referred (Rav Chaim Cohen) is a spodik wearing gerrer chassid and a big posek.March 27, 2012 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #863159EY MomParticipant
As far as hand vs. machine, one thing is certain:
Most people who don’t eat gebrochts don’t eat machine matzah, either. Not all, but most.March 27, 2012 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #863160SayIDidIt™Participant
If you don’t eat gebrokts, you are saying that Matzah that gets wet is a Shaila of Chometz. If so, how can you make Gebroktz on Pesach?March 27, 2012 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #863161oomisParticipant
FYI:- Once Matzo is baked, it can never become Chometz.”
Those that hold by non-gebrokts do not agree with that statement. I personally do eat gebrokts, but those who don’t, have a chashash that a speck of flour did not get kneaded into the matzah dough thoroughly, and therefore never actually baked with the rest of the dough (unless you agree that any flour that is exposed to a high temperature is baked). So when that speck of flour comes into contact with a new liquid (i.e. soup and knaidlech), the flour that previously was not mixed with liquid has now become mixed with a liquid and can become chometz in 18 minutes. At least that is my understanding of the issue. Those who eat gebrokts believe this possibility to be less than nil, and that once baked, matzah is matzah and as you said, cannot become chometz.
I have another question that has always bothered me. What is this “18 minute matzos” business. ISn’t all matzah under 18 minutes from start to finish, or it becomes chometz?March 27, 2012 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #863163
rabbiofberlin- “our “hetter’ to cook from yom tov to shabbos is based on the possibility of receiving guests before shabbos (“dechozo le-orchim”)”
I have not learned the sugya of eruv tavshlin so please educate me. If you are worried that you may have guests on yom tov then you should be allowed to cook on yom tov regardless of the eruv tavshilin or the next day being Shabbos?March 27, 2012 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #863164cherrybimParticipant
“Many are machmir and dont eat Gebrokst because its a chshash chometz.”
The same chashash exists on the last day of pesach too; so much for this “chumra” shtus.March 27, 2012 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #863165
The last day is only added in chutz and is really after yom tov. And the Chofetz Chaim and the Steipler Gaon also had this chumra “shtus”. I’m with them.March 27, 2012 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #863166
Oomis: Actually, if you ask Rav Schachter, 18 minutes is a mistake. You actually have 22.March 27, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #863167MDGParticipant
“the Chofetz Chaim and the Steipler Gaon also had this chumra”
They did but not their families.March 27, 2012 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #863168EY MomParticipant
May I ask a question?
How did this discussion morph from the poster’s question – a query asking how and if the tradition of eating non-gebrochts on Acharon shel Pesach can be worked out this year – to a wholesale discussion on the validity of the minhag of not eating gebrochts?
Have we really descended to the point where we cannot handle minhagim that are different from our own?
The minhag of not eating gebrochts is not a recent phenomenon, nor are its roots of disputed origin. Those who keep it are right to keep it and to safeguard it. Those who don’t, don’t. Why is this becoming such an issue?
As to those who ask, if one doesn’t eat gebrochts all week of Pesach, how can they do so on Acharon shel Pesach, the answer is this: Because it is a chumrah. And in order to show that it is a chumrah and not me’ikar hadin, in chutz la’Aretz it has become a tradition to davka eat gebrochts on acharon shel Pesach. In EY, there is no such minhag as all days of Yom Tov are d’oraisa.March 27, 2012 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #863169MDGParticipant
“Have we really descended to the point where we cannot handle minhagim that are different from our own?”
A lot of people give off the impression that if you don’t do things their way, you are doing it wrong. That of course is silly, because to do things right, you don’t have to do them their way, you have do them my way 🙂March 27, 2012 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #863170
Thank you all. I was told I am allowed to prepare my “gebroks” food before Shabbos. The reason we eat gebroks Acharon shel pesach is to show its just a chumrah. That’s our minhag, and many other families minhag!March 27, 2012 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #863171kvy613Member
You misunderstood mamash. He is planning to eat kitniyot on the shabbos after pesach( In E’Y Shabbos is issru chag)March 27, 2012 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #863172NaysbergMember
MDG: Rav Chaim, who is the Steipler’s son, also doesn’t eat gebrochts.March 27, 2012 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #863173Israeli ChareidiParticipant
Just to clarify, the reason I used the term most people in referring to those who use machine matzoh for the larger part of the week is because I am involved in matzoh production here in the holy land and have found that most people who order matzoh order just enough hand-made for the seder and order machine-made for the rest of the holiday.
Also, I have been involved in the alternative-grain matzoh scene both hand and machine. I can tell you that those who require gluten-free oat matzoh should check each individual matzoh for hollow areas containing unbaked flour. Gluten-free oat dough is extremely tough and sticky and the machines that usually do a great job on wheat or spelt have a hard time with the oats. In addition, although any flour residue found on the outside of the matzoh has been heated far past the point of being ever able to rise, unmixed flour that is trapped inside a dough is shielded from the heat and can easily pose a problem – it is still white.
PS I eat gebrochts – it’s chumra on oneg yom tovMarch 27, 2012 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #863174dash™Participant
What is this “18 minute matzos” business. ISn’t all matzah under 18 minutes from start to finish, or it becomes chometz?
No, dough that is continuosly worked will never become Chometz.March 27, 2012 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #863175popa_bar_abbaParticipant
No, dough that is continuosly worked will never become Chometz.
Most things that continuously work will make dough.March 27, 2012 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #863176
yungerman- its a sugya in tomid nishchat. and other places.
oomis- 18 minutes is a massive chumra (ehich we all follow- i’m not debating it), and in reality, it takes alot longer.March 27, 2012 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #863177
On the idea of saying Ho’il even if no one can eat it, see SHU”T Chassam Sofer O.C 79 and R’ Akiva Eiger 1:7 if I recall correctly. This case should be better than the one they’re discussing though because Gebrochts is Chazi for people who don’t have that Minhag (or even for people who do, depending on who you ask).
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