Reply To: Romance – a gentile attitude

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#1187784
Lilmod Ulelamaid
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Kapusta – no one was was comparing Gedolim here. The context of the discussion was comparing a Gadol versus a regular person (i.e. non-Gadol). I am not “judging” Rav Avigdor Miller for the fact that he wasn’t a Gadol. I am also not a Gadol and neither are you. Those are just facts that do not reflect badly on anyone. And yes, I do need to know who is a Gadol and who is not so that I know how to treat them.

Yekke2- the term “Daas Torah” is used in different ways, which can cause a lot of unfortunate confusion. There are basically two ways to use the term “Daas Torah”. One of these is the way it is used when talking about Gedolei Hador (such as Rav Chaim Kanievsky, shlita, or Rav Shach Zatsal). In this context, it means (at least according to most people) that we all have to listen to what they say when they make a pronouncement for the klal. (even then, some might say that there can be more than one Gadol Hador, and if they disagree, you can choose which one to listen to, but many would say that there is only one Gadol Hador and we all have to listen to him, but I DON’T want to go there, since that is not the topic under discussion and I DO NOT want that to become the topic under discussion). In any case, in terms of this usage of the term “Daas Torah”, I and you do not have the right or the ability to disagree. (at best if there is a dissenting opinion amongst Gedolim, we MAY have the right to choose whom to follow, but it’s not so simple).

Then there is the second way that the term “Daas Torah” is used. In this way, it can be used in reference to anyone who is at all learned, and it has percentages (not that we can calculate exactly). To the extent that someone has learned and INTERNALIZED the teachings of the Torah, his views will be Daas Torah. Some people may have 5% Daas Torah and some may have 99% (I don’t think that anyone can be said to have 100%). (This last paragraph is based on a quote from the Seifer “Daas Torah”. I don’t have the source on me, although I can possibly try to locate it at some point).

According to the second usage of the term, I have a certain amount of Daas Torah, Rav Avigdor Miller had a certain amount of Daas Torah, and every Rav and Talmid Chacham has a certain amount. When it is used this way, it is more subjective, in the sense that I can choose whose “Daas Torah” I want to listen to (assuming that I am choosing based on intellectually honest reasons. Comfort level MAY POSSIBLY be considered an intellectually honest reason in CERTAIN cases.) According to this definition, no one can tell me that I have to follow a certain Rav (such as R’ Avigdor Miller) because he is Daas Torah.

When I used the term “Daas Torah”, I was referring to the first definition. Actually, that is the only way that I,personally ever use the term, and I don’t like it when people use it the second way, since it leads people to think that anyone who has learned some Torah is in the same category as a Gadol and everyone has to follow them. When people feel that they can’t accept something that some Rav or Talmid Chacham said, they end up losing respect for the Gedolim, since they never learned to distinguish between the two.

In any case, the point is that one can bring Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita as a source but not Rav Avigdor Miller.