Romance – a gentile attitude

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  • #618488
    Joseph
    Participant

    ================================

    Rav Avigdor Miller on the Divorce Epidemic

    Class #646, Mind of Control, 1:23:45

    But she has deep down in her heart gentile attitudes, attitudes maybe there’s such a thing as romance yet in life. That’s a gentile attitude. And she feels unhappy. And the husband is a hum drum husband, an ordinary decent Jewish husband. Maybe a handsome man too. But still you’re accustomed to him already. He’s too accustomed to be romantic anymore. And so she starts becoming dissatisfied. You know what she’s doing? She’s ruining her neshama.

    #1187715
    thebabbler
    Member

    Excerpts of anything may be misleading.

    Of course there is more to all of this.

    (Rav Miller didn’t discuss abusive marriages much,but he did encourage husbands to buy conciliatory gifts for their wives)

    Anyway: In the context of a husband who is treating a wife very decently, an unhappy wife MAY- not necessarily though- fit the above description.

    But let no one jump to this conclusion about any wife seeking a divorce.

    #1187716
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Humans were designed to start off with beautiful lies. This is perfectly normal.

    #1187717
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If Joseph is representative of rabbi miller’s teachings , then I don’t really care what he said

    #1187718
    MDG
    Participant

    In literature analysis, the term romance means a fictitiously embellished account or explanation. In other words, slightly beyond reality, as opposed to fantasy which is way beyond reality. So even in English, romance means fiction.

    I was thinking about this recently and came to the hypothesis that romance books (about love and lust) are called that because they romanticize (fictitiously embellish) real couple interaction.

    IMO, a man can be just as misled by his unrealistic expectations.

    #1187719
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    The Jewish attitude is that marriage is about having a relationship with someone. When Frum women want to get divorced, it is usually because they don’t have a relationship, and their husbands don’t want to have a relationship, and that is not a Jewish marriage. This can also work the other way, but it is probably more common this way, and in any case, that is the topic under discussion.

    If a husband sees that his wife is upset by the way he treats her, the Jewish way is to discuss it with her, not to tell her that he has a right to treat her however he wants and she has to stay married to him.

    #1187720
    Joseph
    Participant

    Lilmod, the original topic under discussion is the concept of romance. And the point is that it is a gentile concept and attitude.

    The points about divorce were a side point that was primarily made because Rav Miller zt’l happened to mention romance and its gentile attributes and origins in that discussion. I quoted Rav Miller at greater length, including a fuller quotation of this shiur he gave, in the other current thread that focused on divorce. But to your point here, Rav Miller frequently said that the vast majority of divorces that occur in the frum community were unnecessary, avoidable and should not have occurred. And he made this point over 30 years ago; today it is undoubtedly much worse. He also said it is typically the wife asking for these unnecessary divorces. See the other thread for fuller quotations. Rav Miller zt’l said even maintaining a difficult marriage is preferable to divorce, which is typically much worse than most difficult marriages.

    #1187721
    Abba_S
    Participant

    LU- A Jewish wife is equal to her husband and it’s only because of the curse of Eve that the husband rules. While dating try to find out, will the boy put his future wife on a pedestal or treat her as a footstool. Don’t just marry the first guy who asks he may just want a maid. Once married try not to go to bed angry at your spouse, talk it out before bed otherwise the anger will consume both you and your marriage. Also if while davening Sim Shalom you should have in mind that there should be peace between husband and wife, parent and children. children and in-laws it will help. Not that you have these problems. But for those who do pray, Hashem will give you the inspiration to solve these problem without resorting to divorce.

    #1187722
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Chemicals are not gentile or Jewish.

    #1187723
    Joseph
    Participant

    The attitude and concept is a gentile one.

    #1187725
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I saw your posts in the other thread. I haven’t had a chance to comment yet (but trust me, I have a lot to say!) It seemed self-evident that this thread was meant to be connected, and you seemed to be under the assumption that most people get divorced because of the reasons mentioned in the OP. Many people reading your post would get the impression that many Frum people get divorced for such insane reasons.

    Boruch Hashem, no one I know got divorced for such crazy reasons, and the implication (since you initially quoted this in the thread about divorce) was that you think that most or many people (including Lenny’s wife) get divorced or want to get divorced for such reasons.

    If that wasn’t your point, then I’m not sure what your point was. Are you just trying to say that romance is a goyish concept? Why did you suddenly think that was an important concept to bring up? Anyhow, it’s not 100% true, but why are we talking about this??

    #1187726
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    MDG: “IMO, a man can be just as misled by his unrealistic expectations.”

    I think it’s probably much more common for men than for women.

    #1187727
    Joseph
    Participant

    Lilmod, Rav Miller zt’l was a pulpit Rav and a godol hador who dealt with divorces, unfortunately, a lot more than you or likely anyone else here. And based on his experience and knowledge of the Torah and sources expressed the strong opinion that the vast majority of divorces are frivolous and unnecessary.

    #1187728
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I thought you said that the point of this thread was not about divorce. Now you seem to be saying that it is.

    This thread is about romance. I do not see any quotes from Rav Avigdor Miller saying that is the reason for the majority of divorces.

    #1187729
    Person1
    Member

    The opening post exemplify everything I hate about bad Chinuch.

    You could explain what is the conception of romance, why is it wrong and what’s is the true meaning of marriage.

    Instead you just make a vague statement (romance is bad) say that some Rav said it’s very bad, and that it also causes a lot of divorces. You also say that many women have these misconception (so that they can recognize the evil thoughts when they come and drive them away)

    Children absorb all this nonsense and they grow up and think: “So if I want him to remember my birthday, is that romance? Am I risking our marriage by expecting him to call me from work once a day”? Because you never explained anything to them. You just scared them.

    #1187730
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, once again you make exaggerated statements with absolutely nothing to back it up.

    Please substantiate , and please don’t drag in Rabbi Miller by attributing unproven. Paine of “vast” numbers of divorces

    #1187731
    Joseph
    Participant

    At one of his Thursday night shiurim Rav Miller stated that 99% of divorces needn’t have occurred. I’m going from recollection but can get the verbatim quote if necessary.

    #1187732
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I imagine that you would want to do everything you can to get people to respect Daas Torah. I’m sure you realize that one of the biggest problems with our generation is a lack of respect for Daas Torah, and that this is one of the areas that needs the greatest tikkun.

    From things that you’ve written, I KNOW that this is a very important concept to you and one that you wish people would realize. So I don’t think you realize that when you post things like this, it decreases people’s respect for Daas Torah.

    First of all, you don’t differentiate between Gedolim. The way you quote Rav Avigdor Miller, you make it sound like one must relate to his words the same way they relate to Rav Moshe Feinstein zatsal or Rav Shach Zatsal or even the Chofetz Chaim Zatsal. Rav Avigdor Miller was a tremendous Talmid Chacham but he does not belong in the same category as Rav Moshe Feinstein zts”l or the Chofetz Chaim zts”l, and no one is required to accept his opinions on divorce. When you quote him the way that you do, you make it sound like the fact that he said something makes it Daas Torah and something that everyone has to accept the way they have to accept things that the Chofetz Chaim said. If they can’t accept what Rav Avigdor Miller said, they will start to have doubts in the whole concept of Daas Torah and feel like they can debase the Gedolim.

    In addition to the fact that Rav Avigdor Miller was not the Chafetz Chaim or Rav Shach, he did not necessarily mean to imply everything that you are attributing to him by quoting him the way you are. He did not say that most divorces are caused by incorrect conceptions of romance as you said that he did. Saying that most divorces could have been prevented is not the same as saying they were caused by wrong ideas of romance.

    Furthermore, the statement that most divorces could have been prevented is a vague statement. All it means is that theoretically it could have been prevented if some things had been done differently at some point. This could mean that the divorce could have been prevented if the husband were willing to do something differently, but since he is not, the wife has no choice but to get divorced. It could mean that the divorce could have been prevented if the wife had not been exposed to certain things as a teenager, but now that she was, it is unavoidable. It could mean that the divorce could have been prevented if something had been done differently in Shana Rishona, but since it wasn’t, it is now unavoidable.

    In any case, each divorce is its own situation, so it is not necessarily relevant what happened in another situation or in most situations. It is also possible that Rav Avigdor Miller dealt with certain types of situations. It is also possible that he is wrong.

    #1187733
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1 & lesschumras – +1!

    #1187734
    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Most of the preaching against divorce takes place when the candidates, especially the wife, are unknown or not related to the advising authority. The moment the abused wife is someone’s daughter, granddaughter, niece, cousin, etc. — most of the time the opposition to divorce suddenly disappears. It now becomes a mitzva, “to save the poor wife or the children” etc.

    #1187735
    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – its when you get married for the guy not the kids thats what im planning on doing i want a guy and kids to come along with that h’h.

    #1187736
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Maybe I should rephrase my last sentence – It is possible that there are other shitas.

    #1187737
    Joseph
    Participant

    Lilmod, feel free to share any other shittas on this issue that you can cite. I don’t think you’ll find any significant disagreements with him on this issue. What Rav Miller zt’l cited on this topic isn’t controversial or otherwise disagreed with, so far I know, by other gedolei rabbonim. What he said and wrote, that I quoted, is common sense. But if you have citations otherwise, I’m all ears. I think we both know you have no other gedolim to cite in disagreement.

    #1187738
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Sparkly – are you saying that one should get married for the guy or shouldn’t?

    #1187741
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I just responded to your posts on the other thread (although it was long, so the moderation will probably take a while.)

    As I pointed out above,I don’t need to find other quotes from Gedolim in order to disagree with Rav Avigdor Miller – I was just trying to state my disagreement in a respectful way. The fact that Rav Avigdor Miller said something does not mean that anyone has to accept it, which is why it bothers me the way you are quoting him, as though everyone has to accept him. I also don’t think that what he is saying has to contradict what I have said, as I already pointed out.

    I did already mention in another thread that the Bostoner Rebbetzin was in favor of divorce. It is also obvious that there are many Rabbanim in favor of divorce since there is a concept of “me’ah rabbanim” that has been used on many occasions (and each time obviously required 100 Rabbanim). There is also a concept of forcing a guy to give his wife a divorce. Furthermore, there are a lot of Frum divorced people in the world, so obviously there were Rabbanim who allowed them to get divorced.

    #1187742
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    One more point that is really important that I already kind of mentioned. The bottom line is that divorces that are initiated by the wife can more or less be divided into two categories: those in which the marriage could have been saved and those in which it couldn’t. (I realize that’s a bit simplistic). Rav Avigdor Miller is talking about those that could have been saved. I think that any intelligent person would realize that there are marriages that fall in one category and marriages that fall in another.

    There are two points of contention here: 1. What percentage fall in each category? 2. What defines a marriage as not working and requiring a divorce?

    In terms of question 1, I don’t know if anyone has the answer and I don’t know if it would be possible to get an answer. It also might depend on the year, the country, the ages of the couple, and the specific group within the Orthodox community. In any case, it is irrelevant, since all that matters is the specific couple in question.

    2. Are you talking about marriages that are not-Great or marriages that are terrible? I have been talking about marriages that are terrible. It is possible that Rav Avigdor Miller was talking about marriages that are okay, but not great.

    The point is that there may not even be a disagreement or at least not a substantial one between Rav Avigdor Miller and myself. It is hard to know since one would have to know the exact situations that he was talking about, and even if one is familiar with the situation, there are many details that one may not be aware of.

    The bottom line is that one has to be EXCEEEDINGLY careful when quoting something like this, since even if Rav A. Miller was right, what he said might not be relevant to the situation at hand. In this case, these posts seem to have been in response to the other thread, and as I wrote there, they are irrelevant to that situation.

    #1187743
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Also, as I have mentioned before, there was a Tanna or an Amora who got divorced. And there have been several chashuve people in our generation who are divorced. I can think of two Rosh Yeshivas offhand.

    #1187744
    thebabbler
    Member

    american yerushalmi. sooooo true!

    #1187745
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you trust joseph, Rabbi miller also apparently said you should threaten people’s family if they don’t have the right hashkafos.

    So, why would anyone care what he said?

    #1187746
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    All I’ll say is this —

    I am an unabashed and unashamed romantic and happily married 25 years.

    If you don’t have romance in your marriage, I *truly* feel sorry for you.

    The Wolf

    #1187747
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Rabbi miller also apparently said you should threaten people’s family if they don’t have the right hashkafos.

    Much as there are many aspects of R. Miller’s hashkafos that I disagree with, I find it difficult to give that credence without confirmation. Do you have a source and context in which this was said?

    The Wolf

    #1187748
    Sparkly
    Member

    lilmod ulelamaid – you should marry for the guy.

    #1187749
    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf: How are you defining what you refer to as “romance” in your marriage? Is it the standard English or French definition of the word defined in the OP or is it your own non-standard definition that you’ve redefined to mean for how you want to understand it?

    I’m betting it is a definition other than its usage in the historical context and primary definition.

    #1187750
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Wolf

    You should read what Rav Avigdor Miller said. He has said alot of things that Im not sure Joseph would agree with. I dont know about this statement specifically, It is possible

    #1187751
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Don’t be ridiculous, he never said such a thing.

    #1187753
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    No one has to agree with Rav Avigdor Miller about anything, but please let’s not speak about him disrespectfully. Also, it is assur to quote people negatively, and even if it would be l’toeles, it has to be completely accurate and the context must be clear. (I’m referring to the statement about threatening people’s families, which if he said it all, was clearly in a certain context and there are clearly details left out here.)

    #1187754
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Wolf, Joseph says it in his name. Its hard to believe rabbi miller actually said it, but Joseph says so

    #1187755
    benignuman
    Participant

    Lilmod,

    I don’t think you (or I) can say what level of gadlus Rabbi Avigdor Miller achieved. It is unwise to simply declare that he was not in the same category as Rav Moshe Feinstein.

    Everybody agrees that there are cases where divorce is necessary and (I think) everybody would agree that there are nebach divorces that occur today that are unnecessary and should not occur. Ones position on the actual percentages of these will depend on what situations you believe divorce can be justified.

    It is my personal opinion that, when there are children in the home, divorce is wrong unless: 1) One parent is abusive (to the children or to the other parent; 2) One parent has become a drug or alchohol addict; 3) a parent has become mentally ill; 4) One parent has gone off the derech; or 5) One parent was unfaithful.

    My understanding of Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s position is along the same lines.

    #1187756

    A wise Half israeli once told me that north americans [used to] have a big advantage in their marriages because they believe and start within Romance

    Romance is a wonderful thing

    #1187757

    TheRealDonaldTrump,Joseph,

    Ridiculous

    What did he actually say ?And some context,if there is any at all?

    #1187758
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I don’t think you (or I) can say what level of gadlus Rabbi Avigdor Miller achieved. It is unwise to simply declare that he was not in the same category as Rav Moshe Feinstein.”

    I disagree. I think it is very important to differentiate. I can freely disagree with Rav Avigdor Miller. I can not disagree with Rav Moshe Feinstein. At least not for the most part. The truth is that it is POSSIBLE that there are certain types of things that I would be able to disagree with Rav Moshe Feinstein about, but I would have to be much more careful about thinking that I could disagree with Rav Moshe and it would only be in certain types of areas if at all, and even in those areas, I would have to be very careful.

    I think that one of the reasons there is such a lack of appreciation for Daas Torah nowadays is the fact that people don’t distinguish between the Gedolei Hador and Talmidei Chachamim.

    #1187759
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    benignuman, you’re entitled to your opinion on divorce. The problem is when people make it seem like it’s the only possible opinion and put down people who do feel that divorce is necessary. In this case, this thread seems to be an extension of another thread having to do with a woman who is miserable and feels that her husband has been controlling and abusive to her for over 20 years. In that thread, I had written that if they go for marriage counseling AND it is not successful and the therapists and Rabbanim involved recommend a divorce and the wife wants a divorce, I don’t think it’s right for the husband to refuse to grant a Get.

    These quotes from Rav Avigdor Miller seem to have been brought here in order to encourage the husband to refuse to grant his wife a Get even in the above circumstances, and I think that is wrong! And I have a feeling that Rav Avigdor Miller would agree as well. (Remember, I was only talking about after they try working things out IF they are unsuccessful).

    #1187760
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ask Joseph if you don’t believe me.

    Also, to mention rabbi miller in same sentence as Reb moshe Feinstein is laughable. Ha ha ha

    #1187761
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    On many topics, there is more than one opinion and if you disagree with someone , there is likely someone else who agrees with you.

    The Satmar Rebbe and Rav Kook disagreed with each other, you can disagree with one of them

    #1187762
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    As a side note , I dont think Rav Miller was really a Posek, he was more of a lecturer or a mussur schomoozer

    #1187763
    Sparkly
    Member

    rabbi donald trump (joking).

    #1187764
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD- generally speaking when Gedolim disagree with each other, you still are not supposed to say that you disagree with one of them. You are not great enough to disagree with a Gadol. Since there is a machlokes and you can’t follow both, you follow one or the other, but not because you are great enough to say that one is wrong.

    However, the above issue might be a different type of issue, and I’m not sure if this applies. But I certainly can disagree with Rav Miller on this issue. (although I would prefer to be dan l’kaf zchus and assume that he might be being taken out of context, and there might not be a real disagreement here.)

    #1187765
    lesschumras
    Participant

    LU, by now you’ve seen that Joseph’s practice is to either not have sources to back up his halachic claims or to misquote or take statements out of context so as to make it appear the source supports his position. Given that, you can be assured that he probably did the same with Rav Miller

    #1187766
    benignuman
    Participant

    lilmod,

    What tools do you have to evaluate the respective gadlus of Reb Moshe or Rabbi Miller? Did you know them personally, observe their ways, and ask them questions to make such a determination?

    Furthermore, you are entitled to disagree with either or both of them. If you asked one of them a halachic shaila, you would be obliged to follow their psak but outside of that you may disagree.

    Chas v’shalom that what I said should be interpreted as supporting a man’s refusal to give his wife a get once it is clear that the marriage is over. My point is that she (or he) shouldn’t be asking for a divorce unless the situation is one of the ones I laid out above.

    I know that there are those who disagree with my position. I think that they are wrong. If you hold that position, I would suggest reading a dozen memoirs of people whose parents got divorced when they were children and see if that changes your mind.

    #1187767
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some here think its a good idea to go to Seforim and pick out some of the things that were said , they are actually trolling and not only are they not giving kavod to the Rav, they are actually disrepcting him. Picking out statements that is known not to be so popular will lead to people to disraged the Gedolim.

    the Shaila or statement is usually given in a context and out of context it will seem weird, stupid or worse and people will not respect the gadol for it

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