a quick word to beninungman: If you ever read “Vajoel Moshe’ from the satmarer rebbe zz’l , you will see that he claims that the medinah comes from the “sitra achara”-the “other” side. I am no rebbe, but this comes suspiciosuly close to saying that there are “two reshuyos’ (two powers) -chas vecholiloh- and this- for anyone- smells of “kefirah”.
to health: I will ignore your gratuitious insult and deal with your actual post. you are a frequent and prolific poster here but your arguments always end in sophistry and pretzel-like convolutions.
First-your quote from the gemoro says nothing about historical events. It only deals with the FEELINGS of a jew- and it has nothing to do with what HAPPENS to a jew. As a matter of fact ,the other gemoro (that you did not quote)says ‘ein odom kofef ezbah ele im ken machrizim olov min hashomayim”- a person does not bend his finger unless it is decreed from heaven. So much for you saying that things happen without HKBH’s will.As far as the medinah- you are big into pretzel-land- you say that it was established without HKBH’s will because people are allowed to make aveirus (as if is an aveirah to establish a medinah) but the “zechusim’ keep it going. Well, maybe they continue to have zechusim forever! You and people who espouse your view will continue saying that- just around the corner!just around the corner!- is the destruction of the medinah, chas vesholom. Well, that corner will be there for the rest of our lives and -of course- will never be turned because HKBH does want the medinah with all its failings!