April 12, 2013 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #608981AntwerpianParticipant
When Yom hoatzmaut falls on the first day of behab, what do you say first? Selichos or HallelApril 12, 2013 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #946917
I believe the YU Beis Midrash (which is one of the few places that can have Yom Ha’atzma’ut on a Monday because most other places hold of the Nidcheh) says Hallel first, but I’m not sure. I’ll ask someone who Davens there Monday then get back to you.April 12, 2013 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #946918
What is the question?:- Hallel is a Chiyuv whereas Selichos BeHaB is only a Minhog. Of-course a Chiyuv supersedes a Minhog.April 12, 2013 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #946919popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Mod 42 says we say tachanun with a brachaApril 12, 2013 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #946920
This could be Purim Torah, I guess.
In truth, though, it’s quite sad how misguided and against gedolim so many of our brethren are in their following of this avoda zara of Zionism.
It would make much more sense, objectively and halachicly speaking, for those who “celebrate” this day, to add selichos (for celebrating Israel’s Independence Day) to the b”h”b selichos rather than to say Hallel for that Avoda Zara’s Independence Day.
Then, if the Yetzer HaRa for A”Z (of Zionism) would continue to leave them alone, they could stop celebrating, CH”V, this tragic day which was really just one more stage in the spilling of so much blood of so many innocent Jews, R”L L”A Hashem Yishmor, in the Zionists’ tragic and doomed endless pursuit of this idolatry of their State at all costs and against the warnings and teachings of so many gedolim and so obviously (even more so in hindsight) kineged the ratzon of Hashem.
So the only question would seem to be which selichos to say first, those for Israel’s Independence day or those for, lihavdil, B”H”B. And since all of Klal Yisrael says the ones for B”H”B, it would seem that those are the ones recited first.
This part is not Purim Torah, and is just conjecture.
It is hard for modern man to understand the logic and reasoning of how so many people worshipped the baal and, even worse, the molech, casting their children into flames in service of this latter idol. The whole concept makes no sense, given the time, money, blood, sweat and tears it takes to raise a child. To then give that over to an idol who they knew quite well had no real power would seem to require delusion and hallucination.
Yet as Zionism becomes ever more ridiculous due to its many, many disasters since even before it founded its state at the price of enormous amounts of Jewish blood, while its adherents remain as faithful as ever (or even more faithful) to Zionism, it becomes more understandable how people could have worshipped the molech.
After all, people today, especially non-“cavemen” MO, who are surely more “modern” and sophisticated than those at the time of chazal, uproot their entire existence to live under the yoke of anti-Torah heretics in the holy land and also send their children to the front-lines in the IDF as a religious observance to fight for this idol of Zionism, when history has already amply demonstrated that this idol, too, is powerless. As a gadol presciently stated at its founding, the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel HaZahav. In hindsight, to those not blinded by this idol, it is plain to see.April 13, 2013 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #946921old manParticipant
Yom Hazikaron is Monday. Yom Ha’atzma’ut is Tuesday. I fail to understand why anyone would observe other days when the State of Israel is observing Tuesday as Independence Day. The question of B’hab then becomes moot.
Furthermore, as per this policy, Yom Ha’atzmaut is never observed on a Monday.April 13, 2013 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #946922
I think you say selichos first, then rays kriya.April 14, 2013 1:34 am at 1:34 am #946923
avoda zara of Zionism
haKatan:- A lot of people are taking humbrage to your absurd depiction.
You obviously better take an immediate crash course in the true definitions of “Avodoh Zoro” and you shall quickly discover how misguided and out of place, your remarks were.April 14, 2013 1:57 am at 1:57 am #946924
HaKatan: The notion of Zionism to which most frum people object, the Zionism from Herzl to Ben Gurion, is largely extinct now. There are very few who believe in Zionism as its own cause, as an independent state for its own sake- the nearest possible belief would just be simple patriotism and pride in one’s country, as many Americans, Britons, Mexicans, etc have for their own countries. The belief as it was thought of by Israel’s original settlers is pretty much dead- think of its great symbol, the kibbutz- it’s pretty much dead. There are almost no (if there are any at all) traditionally-run kibbutzim in Israel right now- most of them now have families living together, with personal possessions, much higher living standards, and residents working outside the kibbutz (they hire foreign labor to work the fields). The socialism that birthed Zionism is dead, which means that most of the MO (and not) Jews who celebrate Israel do not come under the label of “Zionist” that you revile so much.
Sam2: From my impression of people I know who are affiliated with YU and celebrate Yom Ha’Atzma’ut (though the person I know does not say Hallel, so far as I’m aware), they celebrate Tuesday.April 14, 2013 2:10 am at 2:10 am #946925charliehallParticipant
The four largest Orthodox synagogues in my neighborhood will all recite Hallel on Tuesday. I don’t think any observe B”H”B.
My rav insisted that he heard Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l insist that if one is to recite Hallel for Yom HaAtzmaut, it MUST be recited on 5 Iyar ONLY. My rav always did this when he had a shul, even when 5 Iyar fell on Shabat, but now that he has retired I’m not aware of any shul that will be reciting Hallel on the correct day.April 14, 2013 4:01 am at 4:01 am #946926
Writersoul: I believe YU goes like the majority and celebrates on Tuesday. But the Beis Midrash holds like Rav Schachter so they’ll say Hallel on Monday.April 14, 2013 4:32 am at 4:32 am #946927
writersoul -“HaKatan: The notion of Zionism to which most frum people object, the Zionism from Herzl to Ben Gurion, is largely extinct now. The belief as it was thought of by Israel’s original settlers is pretty much dead- The socialism that birthed Zionism is dead, which means that most of the MO (and not) Jews who celebrate Israel do not come under the label of “Zionist” that you revile so much.”
My question to you is -so how come they still have a State of Israel -they should have given the land to Turkey a long time ago?
And I agree it’s dead, but what’s in its’ place is much worse.
The current Israeli Gov. run by the likes of Lapid & the MO is much worse than the Gov. that was run by Ben Gurion. At least the latter had the sense to exempt Bnei Torah from the draft!April 14, 2013 5:13 am at 5:13 am #946928
Health, we have of State of Israel because Hashem wants us to have a state. It is improving all of the time with the unfolding of the Geula. As for Turkey, if you think Erdogan is so great go live under him yourself.As for bnei Tora, they are davka the first who should go into the army. They are the hard core who even go to a milchemet reshut (Sota 44a).April 14, 2013 5:57 am at 5:57 am #946929Oh Shreck!Participant
?? ???? ???? ????, When our true redeemer comes forth, when Hashem will effect the true geulah, then we will celebrate. If it’s proven then that any of these ‘chagim’ instituted by the bareheaded, are indeed installments of the awaited geulah, perhaps we will celebrate them as well. Until then, let’s not lose focus. Most clearheaded think it’s only getting in the way of the true geulah. (I can guarantee you, Mashiach won’t be bareheadedly declaring statehood “?? ????? ??? ????? etc.” five minutes to shkia erev shabbos)
The only meaning to these days I can think of is such hakaras hatov to Hashem. How he showers His nation with good DESPITE the great chilul Hashem from the armies, the not-yet-religious, the mass chilul shabbos ect. How he crowns success upon armies that DON’T EVEN CARE TO KNOW HIM, just because He is their Father, Great Shield. How he protects His people DESPITE THE IDF, because He so cares for each of us.
Now that is cause for celebration.April 14, 2013 8:41 am at 8:41 am #946930
1. The Geula comes slowly in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1).
2. We accept miracles from wherever and through whomever Hashem sends them (Megilla 17a).
3. While here are problems, in Israel Shabbat and Jewish holidays are national days of rest. Army mess halls have signs “Keep Kosher! That’s an order!” and during Pesach there are signs at the entrance to bases that it is prohibited to bringin chametz. Etc., etc.
4. Hashem uses the IDF as a keli to protect us. This is called “derech hateiva”.April 14, 2013 10:59 am at 10:59 am #946931
Perhaps you should remove the wool of Zionism from over your eyes to see just how misguided both your remarks and their “umbrage” (not “humbrage”) are.
See Rav Elchanan Wasserman’s Ikvisa DiMishicha:
“Nationalism is idolatry…religious nationalism is avodah zarah [with religion]”
Read it. There’s plenty more.
He also mentions the Three Oaths which Zionists still somehow dismiss as “mere agadita” (wrong on both counts, incidentally) despite the savage terrorism the Arabs committed in Israel never before seen in history. R”L L”A.
Please see above: any nationalism (or anything else non-Torah) that you try to graft on to our holy Torah is idolatry. (Israel is anyways still Socialist, but that is not relevant.) The A”Z is the point, besides that the Zionists are destroying Torah as best as they can, CH”V.
Zionism is nothing like simple (American or other) Patriotism, and certainly not so when viewed from a “Religious-Zionist” perspective. If it were only patriotism, then we wouldn’t be having this absurd discussion of saying Hallel on a secular independence day just as, lihavdil, we don’t say Hallel on July 4th.
Avi: All the massive amounts of blood spilled, CH”V, for or because of this idol of Zionism (some of that in various cruel and barbaric ways) to create and maintain its State at any cost, is clearly no indication that Hashem wants the State any more than the Holocaust’s multi-year existence would show that He wanted the Holocaust, CH”V.
Not to mention the uncomfortable (to Zionists) facts of how it’s A”Z and a violation of the oaths and much more. That Hashem *allowed* the State is quite obvious.
But allowing and wanting (again, see WW-II) are two very different concepts.
Health often brings up Turkey. While the facts on the ground make the situation difficult to resolve al pi derech haTeva (since the Zionists made such an enormous mess), there are still certain things that could be done easily, if only the majority of Klal Yosrael were interested in doing the following and not blinded by Zionism.
One of those is: Just as Turkey is known as a secular state, and not representative of Muslims, so, too, Israel should be known as a secular State and not representative of, liHavdil, Jews.April 14, 2013 11:27 am at 11:27 am #946932
“avoda zara of Zionism”
Let’s not push it.
“we have of State of Israel because Hashem wants us to have a state.”
We had a Holocaust because Hashem wanted us to have a Holocaust; that doesn’t mean we should celebrate its occurrence, does it?April 14, 2013 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #946933NaftushMember
Oh Shreck says: “The only meaning to these days […] is such hakaras hatov to Hashem” despite seemingly ample reason for Hashem to withhold the tov. He concludes: “Now that is cause for celebration.”
It truly is. Nothing could better express the whole theology of Yom Haatzmaut as celebrated by Religious Zionists.
Enjoy the celebration, Shreck. Have no shreck.April 14, 2013 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #946934NaftushMember
Kanoi next door warns against likening Zionism to avoda zara by saying, “Let’s not push it.” In the next breath, he likens the establishment of the medina to the Holocaust. “Let’s not push it,” indeed.April 14, 2013 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #94693526 estatesParticipant
Here is what Horav Hagaon Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L has to say on Yom Hoatzmaut. Of course Hallel is Assur. read on……
Parshas Tazria-Metzora 5773 This email is transcribed from questions that were posed to Harav Miller by the audience at the Thursday night lectures. To listen to the audio of this Q & A please dial: 732-534-8868
How should we celebrate on Yom Ha’atzmaut?
You should not. I’ll tell you why. Yom Ha’atzmaut is a day that was invented not by the chachmei haTorah ; it was invented by a group of atheists, called the Knesset. Now in the Knesset there are some decent people too, but the majority are atheists. When atheists get together and they pass a rule that this and this day should be celebrated by the Jewish people, we’ll ignore them entirely.
The only ones that make laws for the Jewish people are the people who keep the laws of the Jewish people. People that don’t eat kosher, that don’t believe in the Torah, have no business telling us what to do. Therefore, we celebrate the Yom Ha’atzmaut by ignoring it entirely . We pray always for our fellow Jews wherever they are. We pray for them whether they’re in Beunos Aires, whether they’re in Poland, in Eretz Yisroel, we pray for our fellow Jews.
But! When it comes to making laws, like for instance: those people who said, you should make a fifth cup at the Seder, one cup for Soviet Jewry. So we say, the ones that told us to keep the four Kosos, they’re the ones who’ll tell us to make the fifth Kos when Mashiach will come.April 14, 2013 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #946936rebdonielMember
I don’t say a bracha on Hallel for Yom haAtsmaut or Yom Yerushalayim, simply because Ta’anit 28b delineates when you say Hallel. Likewise, I don’t say a bracha on any other half-Hallel, because I don’t believe in making a bracha on a minhag.
In all honesty, as much of a Zionist as I may be, I’d rather people not say Hallel at all than to make a bracha le vatala on this occasion.April 14, 2013 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #946937
Kanoi:- Please note:- Medinas Yisroel is Reishis Tzemichas Ge’uloseinu! Period!
Make no mistake about this reality.April 14, 2013 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #946938☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Kanoi:- Please note:- Medinas Yisroel is Reishis Tzemichas Ge’uloseinu! Period!
Make no mistake about this reality.
Wow, you’re so open-minded!April 14, 2013 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #946939
Health: “so how come they still have a State of Israel -they should have given the land to Turkey a long time ago?”
Remember, that’s your opinion, which is not shared by that many people, at least not the people who matter in Middle East policy.
It’s not a shtuch, per se, it’s just a fact. Email John Kerry or Tzipi Livni and let me know when they get back to you.
The state of Israel, right now, is better than the alternatives. These include handing the state over to various Islamic, anti-Semitic countries, either with its six million Jews or without, in which case they would become refugees. These include, oh, Idunno, handing it over to the US? The UN? Wherever- in which case it is completely at their mercy what happens to the 75% Jews who live there.
Right now, the US has a clear stake in keeping the only country with even something close to a functional democracy going. Israel is the home of six million Jews who have no place else to go. Turkey is Islamist, sorry. As we’ve established in other threads, the state has meant some amazing benefits to Jews who live there (which, as we’ve seen, are taken for granted until they are at risk).
Sam2: Ohhhh… makes sense.
Which raises an interesting point… maybe she does say Hallel? Whatever.April 14, 2013 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #946940
Avi K -“Health, we have of State of Israel because Hashem wants us to have a state.”
This is one of your strangest comments ever. Because Hashem gives Bechira -that means it’s his will? If s/o eats pig and is Mechallel Shabbos -this is Hashem’s will? If a group of Kofrim happen to start a State in Israel instead of Uganda -this makes it Hashem’s will?
“As for bnei Tora, they are davka the first who should go into the army. They are the hard core who even go to a milchemet reshut (Sota 44a).”
When there is a Melech in EY Al Pi Din, then the Bnei Torah will go out to fight. Also, just the picture of these losers like Lapid & Bennett as kings has me ROTL!April 14, 2013 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #946941
Previous post ETA: “Right now, the US has a clear stake in keeping the only country IN THE MIDDLE EAST with even something close to a functional democracy going.”April 14, 2013 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #946942
writersoul -“Remember, that’s your opinion, which is not shared by that many people, at least not the people who matter in Middle East policy.
It’s not a shtuch, per se, it’s just a fact.”
You’re so blinded with your hatred to Antizionists you missed my point. My point wasn’t reiterating what I’ve said a thousand times before that it should be given to Turkey, my point was if the ideology of Zionism is dead -why are they still hanging onto the State? Now I understand the “religious” Zionists -somehow they were Krummed up that having a State before Moshiach is a Mitzvah, but why are the Non-religious still in Israel – if there is no more Zionist ideology? Let them all pack up and move to the US or anywhere that will take them?April 14, 2013 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #946943
Rebdoniel: You don’t believe in making a Brachah on a minhag? Wow. Who are you to say such a thing? That’s ridiculous. I hope you didn’t make an Al Achilas Matzah at the second Seder either.April 14, 2013 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #946944rabbiofberlinParticipant
I promised myself long time ago not to comment upon this subject, as the opinions are so entrenched. However, AviK and (of course!) Healh are taking this do a different dimension-namely – what does the will of HKBH want? The fact is (see gemoro berochos) that EVERYTHING (good and bad) comes from HKBH. Anything else is truly “kefirah” (in contrast to to all the made-up kefiras mentioned in these columns) . Hence, both the Holocaust (very tragically) AND medinas Yisroel came into being by the will of HKBH. That is the only jewish aspect-anything else brings into question fundamental facts of emunah.
That said, the question should be : WHY ? Rabbonim and many others have given their opinion (from the Satmarer rebbe to Rav teichtel, to Ben hecht and many others). BTW- this does not absolve the Nazis ,jemach shemom, from any responsibility (see Pharaph and Mitzrayim). But- confounding the anti-zionists- it also does not make the Zionist leadership of any color “kofrim’. Quite the contrary. Whether you agree or not- it is incontestable that the founding of the medinah has brought great blessings and hatzlocho to the jewish people. For that reason alone, we should praise the establishment of the medinah. Anything else is sophistry.April 14, 2013 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #946945
1. The tiny yishuv could not possibly have withstood the Arabs in 5708 and 5727 or take in double it’s size in ten years without Hashem’s help.We will accept whomever He sends as shelichim (Me’ila 17a).
2. A melech is not needed for a milchemet mitzva. This is proven by the fact that various judges conducted wars even before they became judges. Anyway, according to Rav Kook any leader accepted by the people has the din of melech for these matters. This is also the mashmaut of the Netziv on the mitzva of appointing a king.In any case, all go into the army in a milchemet mitzva (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 7:4). The leader (whatever his technical title is) compels them if necessary (ibid 4:2).April 14, 2013 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #946946
ROB -“AND medinas Yisroel came into being by the will of HKBH. That is the only jewish aspect-anything else brings into question fundamental facts of emunah.”
Hashem lets it -it’s called Bechira -this doesn’t mean he wants it. I don’t understand why you believe Hashem wanted people to make a Medina based on Kefira? If this is what Hashem wanted why Not just bring Moshiach already? Yeah, I know you believe this is the beginning, but how much of a time span between the beginning and the end? I believe if this was the beginning -the end would have happenned by now!April 14, 2013 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #946947
Avi K -“Health,
1. The tiny yishuv could not possibly have withstood the Arabs in 5708 and 5727 or take in double it’s size in ten years without Hashem’s help.We will accept whomever He sends as shelichim (Me’ila 17a).”
B’derech Sh’odom Rozeh Moleichim Oso! Even Aveiros!
“2. A melech is not needed for a milchemet mitzva. This is proven by the fact that various judges conducted wars even before they became judges.”
It was all done by Nevuah. This was done against Hashem’s will.
“Anyway, according to Rav Kook any leader accepted by the people has the din of melech for these matters. This is also the mashmaut of the Netziv on the mitzva of appointing a king.In any case, all go into the army in a milchemet mitzva (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 7:4). The leader (whatever his technical title is) compels them if necessary (ibid 4:2).”
There is no Mitzva, but an Aveira to go to the IDF. This doesn’t have a Din of Milchemes Mitzva, no matter how many years you’ve been posting the same thing. And almost all the Gedolim disagreed with R’ Kook. Do you believe in Rov? If you add up all the Gedolim on the Anti-Medina side & all the ones Pro-Medina -you’ll find Most are against the Medina!April 14, 2013 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #946948
Naftush, I in no way compared the establishment of the Sate of Israel to the Holocaust. I merely pointed out that saying “Hashem caused the founding of the Medina, it must be good” is every bit as ridiculous as saying “Hashem caused the Holocaust, it must be good”.
The existence of a secular state claiming to represent the Jewish People is a tremendous Chillul Hashem, and its insistence on provoking the Arabs has cost tens of thousands of Jewish lives. If you think that’s the beginning of the Geula, I have a bridge to sell you.
“But- confounding the anti-zionists- it also does not make the Zionist leadership of any color “kofrim’.”
No, the fact that they were kofrim is what makes them kofrim. You can’t rewrite history.
“it is incontestable that the founding of the medinah has brought great blessings and hatzlocho to the jewish people. For that reason alone, we should praise the establishment of the medinah.”
The fact that the Medina has brought benefits to the Jewish people does nothing to whitewash its underlying, secular ideology. We do not support that ideology in any way, shape or form; ergo, we do not support the state.April 14, 2013 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #946949simcha613Participant
In my mind, Yom HaAtzmaus is a day where I express my hakaras hatov for all the good that He has given us through the medinah similar to the way I view July 4 as a day to express hakaras hatov for the good that He has given us through the founding of the USA. Are there bad things that have happened (and that are currently happening) because of the Medina? Of course. But that’s not a reason to ignore the good and to deny hakaras hatov to HKB”H. Some of the good being that there are probably more Jews and more Torah in Eretz Yisroel since the fall of Beitar. I don’t think everyone has to do this on Yom HaAtzmaus, I just find this day meaningful for that goal because it was the beginning of the medina, but I do think everyone should recognize the good that has come from the Medinah and express gratitude towards Hashem for its founding.April 14, 2013 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #946951
Health: “You’re so blinded with your hatred to Antizionists you missed my point. My point wasn’t reiterating what I’ve said a thousand times before that it should be given to Turkey, my point was if the ideology of Zionism is dead -why are they still hanging onto the State? Now I understand the “religious” Zionists -somehow they were Krummed up that having a State before Moshiach is a Mitzvah, but why are the Non-religious still in Israel – if there is no more Zionist ideology? Let them all pack up and move to the US or anywhere that will take them?”
You’re right- I misunderstood you, and I apologize. However, I still uphold what I said. First of all, you’re right that many young secular Israelis are disenchanted with the whole idea of Zionism, which is why Zionism is dying- there is no second generation. But why should they leave? Israel is a country with first-world amenities, a growing economy, their native language, their native culture- everything they want from life. Even if they don’t believe in any idealistic dream, Israel is still a great place for them to live. Why should they leave? I’m sure you disagree with American politics in some respects, but that doesn’t mean you need to leave. Not uprooting yourself from your home since birth should not need to be excused. It should be a given, as long as you live according to the laws of the country. There is an astonishingly large (to me, maybe- I’m sure it’s completely obvious to YOU) number of pro-Palestinian Israelis- does that mean they should leave? You can’t force them or blame them for not.
HaKatan: Israel may retain socialist aspects from its beginnings (like Kupat Cholim, etc.), but you should hear my grandfather talking about when he was a kid. (He grew up on a kibbutz.) There’s been a growing inclination in the younger generations towards more capitalistic views. SO much of the socialism that defined the state in its inception has been tremendously toned down.
I can, however, see where you are coming from. While most religious Zionists I know focus more on the chibas ha’aretz rather than the whole government thing, I’m perfectly willing to accept that there are people who are more into the governmental part. I’m going to assume you’re talking about them, and I’m going to just say that I’ll agree to see your point while others may be more amenable if your language is moderated.April 14, 2013 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #946952WolfmanParticipant
I don’t know the history but I think the takanah of nidche is of recent vintage, thus the question was valid at one point, and according to some posters, still valid nowadays in some places.April 14, 2013 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #946953
He also mentions the Three Oaths which Zionists still somehow dismiss as “mere agadita” (wrong on both counts, incidentally) despite the savage terrorism the Arabs committed in Israel never before seen in history. R”L L”A.
Hakatan:- I am old enough to vividly remember the Chebron attack on August 24, 1929. This was before we were Zochim to have a Medinat Yisrael, so I simply will not buy this arguement that Zionism has provoked Arab rage.
The Haftoro of Toldos:- Halocho:- Eisov Sonei Es Yaakov” occurred long before Medinat Yisrael.
There were serious attacks in Tzfas on Isru Chag Shovu’os 1834, lasting 33 days, long before Medinat Yisrael too. This was before any Balfour Declaration & Zionist Congress.April 14, 2013 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #946954Rav TuvParticipant
I hope you didn’t make an Al Achilas Matzah at the second Seder either.
Sam2-im pretty sure Al Achilas Matzah at the second Seder is mitzva D’rabbonin…more than minhag.April 14, 2013 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #946955
147, you have brought exactly two cases of pre-1948 terrorism; over twenty five thousand Jews have been killed since then. Hardly comparable.
Nobody is suggesting that the Arabs loved us unconditionally before the founding of the Medina, only that doing so provoked them into being much, much worse.April 14, 2013 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #946956rabbiofberlinParticipant
Nothing will convince the proponents of the so-called satmarer shittah (health, hakatan, kanoi next door [maybe all of them ,the same person!)that the medinah is a mitzvah or good for the Jews. Fine. But I cannot let by Health’s rebuttal to my assertion -that EVERYTHING comes from HKBH -by claiming bechira.
Look- for individuals there is indeed bechira- for good or for bad. However, for HISTORY, there is no such thing as bechira. It is truly “kefirah” to say that bechira caused- for example- churban bays rishon (after all they had plenty of sins!)and that HKBH’s will was not involved. This view- BY DEFINITION- is “kefirah’, because you assert that events happen without HKBH’s will. There is NOTHING that happens in this world without HKBH’s will. bechira is for us ,individuals, but history only moves as per HKBH’s will. Anything else is kefirah,plainand simple. So, yes, the Holocaust happened because HKBH willed it- with tragic circumstances for klal yisroel and the medina happened-by HKBH’s will, with benieficial aspects for klal ysroel. You are entitled th debate the “WHY” of these events but not the actual event.April 14, 2013 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #946957nishtdayngesheftParticipant
You are old enough to vividly recall something that occured 84 years ago? Methinks you are making something up.
Eisov sonei lyaakov is edom, not Yishmael. The hate of the Arabs today is because of the Zionist government.
What does “Zochim” mean?April 14, 2013 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #946958
mz: Beitzah 4bApril 14, 2013 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #946959WIYMember
“Eisov sonei lyaakov is edom, not Yishmael. The hate of the Arabs today is because of the Zionist government.”
sources taken from Rav Yitzchak Fingerers article A Torah Perspective on Iran and Achris HayomimApril 15, 2013 12:51 am at 12:51 am #946960
chibas haAretz (by the way, who knows which of the 613 mitzvos that is; which passuk is it derived from?) is not an exclusively Zionist trait and, assuming it is a mitzva to love the land, is something that is wholly irrelevant to Zionism except that Zionists use it as a tool to fool people to make their idolatry kosher. B”H, at least some people see through that ruse.
Zionism is very much “the government part”. Read the shiurim of Rabbi Herschel Schachter where he speaks specifically of the government, not (just) the land, in religious terms.
This thread is about saying Hallel, which is a religious prayer, on occasion of a Zionist holiday.
“I am old enough to vividly remember the Chebron attack on August 24, 1929. This was before we were Zochim to have a Medinat Yisrael, so I simply will not buy this argument that Zionism has provoked Arab rage.”
If you do vividly remember 1929, then you also vividly remember the facts as described (and can listen to the tape for yourself), including Religious Zionists’ Shema Yisrael HaKosel Kosleinu and the other instances of hisgarus baUmos which so dramatically and tragically inflamed the Arabs to hate the Jews. Jews lived in Arab countries for centuries before Zionism and the Yemenites had their mesorah intact since bayis rishon – until the evil Zionists intentionally threw overboard their sefarim and kisvei yad and shmaded them, etc. after convincing them to come to their Zionist paradise. It was not always a bed of roses in Arab countries, but the intense and savage hatred they have now, with its manifestations in the tragic loss of so much Jewish blood, Hashem yishmor, is solely a result of Zionism and far, far worse than anything experienced in Arab countries.
Rabbi Soloveichik admitted that Zionism caused the Arabs to hate Jews, and this is anyways plain and simple for any observer to see.
The so-called “Satmar shita” is actually the Torah’s shita. None of the Zionists (here or elsewhere) have yet to come up with anyone who could (i.e. as being on their level in Torah) and did argue on Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chazon Ish, the Chofetz Chaim, etc. It’s no contest.
As for Kefirah (speaking of Zionism….), who told you that our freedom is only as individuals and that global matters are pre-ordained by Hashem? At what point does Hashem decide and at what point do we decide? For example, an Arab homicide/suicide bomber savagely murdered some Jews after which Israel began an operation in Gaza. So was his act personal or global? What you posit makes no sense, except to justify your idol of Zionism since you can then claim that the State was “pre-ordained”, CH”V, when it so clearly was not the ratzon Hashem, as virtually every gadol warned and every objective observer can now see.April 15, 2013 12:54 am at 12:54 am #946961
Nevuah about galus Yishmael does not mean that Arabs always behaved this way towards Jews. The simple reality is that they did not.
Their hate may have always existed to some extent, but that hate and its manifestations was never anywhere close to what it is today, and that hatred is due solely to Zionism.April 15, 2013 1:08 am at 1:08 am #946962charliehallParticipant
“This doesn’t have a Din of Milchemes Mitzva”
In another thread I pointed out at least three gedolim who disagreed with that statement: Rabbi Shlomo Goren z’tz’l, Rabbi Shaul Yisraeli z’tz’l, and Rabbi Shlomo Aviner shlita. There are probably others as well. In any case, without the IDF, there would likely be no Jews in Eretz Yisrael or anywhere else in the Middle East today, as the Arab rodfim would run all over us and kill us all.April 15, 2013 1:47 am at 1:47 am #946963
1. The State is good because it is a mitzva (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot). It was obviously brought about by Hashem and we see that it is a leap forward in the unfolding Geula.
2. The riots of 5709 were caused by Arab nationalism and the lack of response of British security forces.Rav Kook refused to shake Norman Bentwich’s hand because of this. The history of Jews in Arab lands is a history of persecution and this is well known to anyone who has studied even a little of the history.Rav Sonnenfeld also refused to sign away the Kotel. Nobody has that right as it is not the property of any individual or group but of Am Yisrael.In nay case, we have an obligation to go to war if necessary to conquer and inhabit EY as set forth by Ramban.
3. It is a great mitzva to go into the IDF. Many gedolim say so and the pillars of Halacha such as Rambam say so. As for rov, when it was pointed out to the Satmar rebbe that he was a daat yachid he said that rov only applies when there is a discussion among the Sanhedrin or within a bet din.
3.April 15, 2013 1:50 am at 1:50 am #946964simcha613Participant
HaKatan- I understand most of the opposition to Religious Zionism but the Avodah Zarah part is beyond me. From what I understand on a very simple level (based on Wikipedia), Religous Zionism is the support of a building of a Jewish State in the Land of Israel. This is something that all of Klal Yisroel believes in, at the very least, when Moshiach comes. We all believe that after Moshiach comes we will have a Jewish State in the Land of Israel. I don’t understand how a concept is Avodah Zarah in pre-Moshiach times, but Avodas HaShem in post-Moshiach times. It’s either Avodah Zarah or it’s not.April 15, 2013 1:52 am at 1:52 am #946965
charliehall -“In another thread I pointed out at least three gedolim who disagreed with that statement: Rabbi Shlomo Goren z’tz’l, Rabbi Shaul Yisraeli z’tz’l, and Rabbi Shlomo Aviner shlita. There are probably others as well.”
And there are many more Gedolim who disagree with this philosophy.
“In any case, without the IDF, there would likely be no Jews in Eretz Yisrael or anywhere else in the Middle East today, as the Arab rodfim would run all over us and kill us all.”
This might be true nowadays, but they wouldn’t have needed an army if they didn’t create a Medina.
It’s like the arsonists who say -you see we need the FD, but without the arsonists who says you’d have needed the FD in the first place?April 15, 2013 1:58 am at 1:58 am #946966
ROB -“Look- for individuals there is indeed bechira- for good or for bad. However, for HISTORY, there is no such thing as bechira.”
I guess you know more than most of the Gedolim from 60 years ago -you’d think that they would know if making a Medina was Rozon Hashem, but yet Most of them were vehemetly against creating a Medina.
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